Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I think the Farseers from the DOW series were pretty unambiguously female, yes?

I think I would like to see more female characters. But I also think that manly roles should be for males only. Gotta wrestle a daemon prince with your bare hands? Nope, gotta be male.

 LumenPraebeo wrote:
I think I would like to see more female characters. But I also think that manly roles should be for males only. Gotta wrestle a daemon prince with your bare hands? Nope, gotta be male.

A Sister of Battle has already done something very similar to that, in fighting a Hive Tyrant in single combat and winning.

And really, Sisters would fight BETTER against Chaos than they would against Tyranids. Keep in mind, this is a setting where Sisters of Battle are capable of performing miracles because their martial arts is better than yours.

There is a difference between killing a Hive Tyrant with your bare hands, and killing one with a power maul.

IIRC the only non-Primarch to manage a feat like the former is Mephiston.

Not that I would really have problem with a suitably powerful female character killing a MC with their bare hands. Like St. Celestine or whatever.

Draigo probably did, but he doesn't really count.

Well yeah.

I said non-Primarchs.

Saint Celestine killed a Daemon Prince one v one, but probably with her sword. That is still pretty comparable in my book.

Well, for comparison sake, try to kill a wolf with a knife.

It's hard right?

Now try to kill one with your bare hands. Actually, more than that, try to rip multiple wolves limb from limb with nothing but brute strength.

I remember a saying, "There is no animal more dangerous than a man with a knife."

I think wolves are under one hundred pounds. I'm a bit more scared of large dogs than wolves. Either one would leave me pretty wrecked, but I think I could kill a wolf in a life or death situation.

Large dogs are more dangerous than wolves anyway.

 Melissia wrote:
Large dogs are more dangerous than wolves anyway.

What makes you say that?

Aside from the fact the largest dogs are twice the size of a wolf or more? The next biggest problem would be that aggressive dogs are trained to be aggressive towards humans and most wild animals will be fearful.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Large dogs are more dangerous than wolves anyway.

What makes you say that?

Many breeds of large dogs have been raised and trained for aggression and brutality-- it's in their genes, and we put it there. Wolves, on the other hand, are animals instead of bred domesticated beasts-- a wolf, threatened, will likely retreat from danger unless you're threatening their children. They don't have the upbringing of the large dogs, and their genes are not artificially tweaked through breeding, but rather, natural selection.

Wolves are not pets, and should never be treated like such; that said, they are also still not quite as dangerous to humans as large dogs are.

I have a deerhound that would tower over a wolf. He's a soft lump of friendly fur unless he is hunting. Then he's a vicious, sleek, speedy killing machine. I reckon two or three wolves wouldn't stand a chance, so yeah. Some dogs are far more dangerous than wolves.

Domesticated animals kill way more people than wild ones simply because there's so many of them and people actually hang out around them.

Cows and horses are dangerous, not because they're vicious but because they're large and easily spooked. When one panics and wants to flee it won't stop for a human. Plenty of dogs means plenty more chances of a dog attack than a wolf attack. Many breeds are aggressive if not handled right, and the kind of people that buy a so-called "fighting dog" aren't always equipped to train it right.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Well, for comparison sake, try to kill a wolf with a knife.

It's hard right?

Now try to kill one with your bare hands. Actually, more than that, try to rip multiple wolves limb from limb with nothing but brute strength.

challenge accepted

LumenPraebeo wrote:I think I would like to see more female characters. But I also think that manly roles should be for males only. Gotta wrestle a daemon prince with your bare hands? Nope, gotta be male.

Personally, I wouldn't want to see anyone wrestle a Daemon Prince with their bare hands. It really is possible to be too heroic.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:What? We were talking about who reads them.

Huh?
What would that have anything to do with the discussion? I couldn't care less about who reads something. "Twilight" and "Mein Kampf" were bestsellers too.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:I'm not saying that Commissars don''t have a combat role. But they do have other duties like monitoring officers or observing what will be printed on propaganda leaflets, etc

Why were we in disagreement, then? All I'm saying is that all Commissars are combatants. Of course they don't just fight but have other duties as well.
Guess this was just a misunderstanding then.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:It has a Commissar not working the front lines presumably cause he doesn't want to get killed, I'm not sure as he's not a character, who checks out the people who print propaganda leaflets. He's their boss.

See, this (as well as Cain) is something where I'd be asking myself how and why such a character would end up in a position like this one. There's no draft. The Imperium doesn't force you to become a Commissar. The progena spend several years in a Schola facility being indoctrinated, drilled and tested, with only those who show "martial aptitude" actually proceeding to any sort of military role. Most progena get civilian assignments, such as becoming a scribe. You've actually gotta work real hard to get picked for one of the few Commissar, Storm Trooper or Battle Sister slots.

As usual, I'm going solely by GW's fluff here - in this case to show that some of the novels' ideas may just not "synch" well with the things you may read in a Codex.
Again, it doesn't make either version wrong or right. It does mean, however, that some of us will note inconsistencies between the various sources, at which point they are forced to pick.

Sidenote: As I don't know the novel you are referring to, it is well possible that it actually offers some sort of deeper explanation, such as that Commissar just being real old or whatever. I can work only with what you are disclosing.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Seriously Lynata, why don't you go and become the boss of GW and then declare anything not codexes to be non-canon. That way you can be happy.

This isn't about canon or non-canon. Preferences aside, I've come to terms with the way GW handles these things. All I'm asking is people acknowledging that not everything with the 40k label is compatible with each other - this keeps being a major cause of debate between dakkanauts and other 40k things, just because everyone keeps pointing to a different book.
I doo that, too, but I know now that my interpretation is just an opinion and that I cannot enforce it upon others by claiming that the stuff I post is "more right" than anyone elses. Very few people seem to think likewise.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Retcons don't exist in your world then? You really have an obsession with consistency.

Of course retcons do exist. But I won't retcon my interpretation of the setting every second week just because some freelance writer came up with yet another novel describing things differently. At least GW only seems to do it every few years.
The decision on how to handle the sources/fluff is something that each of us needs to do on an individual basis, however.

But yes, I have an obsession with consistency. Consistency is awesome.

 Melissia wrote:
Hm. Looking at the original post, I see a few problems from a feminist perspective-- namely, the post seems to suggest that the only way to include women is to include them in love stories.

Why not include women in a way that passes the Bechdel test?

edit: The Bechdel Test:

1: Story has two women, preferably named women.
2: Have at least one conversation...
3: ... that doesn't involve a man or men, or the male population in general.

tl;dr, not everything a female character would talk about in 40k has to do with loving men.

I don't read 40k books to read about two women discussing shoes.

That would be like watching a porno that has a 30 second sex scene followed by an hour of cuddling.

 Lynata wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:What? We were talking about who reads them.

Huh?
What would that have anything to do with the discussion? I couldn't care less about who reads something. "Twilight" and "Mein Kampf" were bestsellers too.

Now I'm just confused.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:I'm not saying that Commissars don''t have a combat role. But they do have other duties like monitoring officers or observing what will be printed on propaganda leaflets, etc

Why were we in disagreement, then? All I'm saying is that all Commissars are combatants. Of course they don't just fight but have other duties as well.
Guess this was just a misunderstanding then.

cadbren wrote:

I don't read 40k books to read about two women discussing shoes.

Interesting. So women can only talk about men or shoes? They cannot talk about bolters, warp, engines or military strategy?

I think this written train of thought started driving down the wrong track some time ago.

Start new thread?

 Crimson wrote:

cadbren wrote:

I don't read 40k books to read about two women discussing shoes.

Interesting. So women can only talk about men or shoes? They cannot talk about bolters, warp, engines or military strategy?

I thought it was a bit dubious statement too - unless of course they were part of the logistics corps then they may well spend alot of time talking about shoes!?

that being said - I was reading the biography of the first (UK) female Apache pilot and she did say that between flying combat misisons and when they were off duty she would go and talk and look at wedding magazines with her female friend in the Opps section.............buts there were limited options when off duty in Bastion.

cadbren wrote:


I don't read 40k books to read about two women discussing shoes.

That would be like watching a porno that has a 30 second sex scene followed by an hour of cuddling.

People complain when I call people misogynist, but come on. Do you really have to make it so easy?

I mean, sure. I don't read 40k books to read about two women discussion shoes either. Or men for that matter.

I read 40k books to read about heroines (and heroes) kicking arse and hang the names. I'm of the camp that thinks all characters should be female by default, because I am selfish and prefer reading about female characters.

I also think that making a character a man just so they can be all physically strong and stuff is pathetic. A human with a power fist is just as strong, male or female. The same thing goes for eviscerators and power swords.

As for killing wolves with your bare hands, why would you want to? That doesn't prove you're a big strong man. That proves you're an idiot who doesn't deserve to be human. Humans use tools. Even if you're caught out in the wilderness alone and some random lone wolf attacks you, grab a freaking branch, moron.

Or hell, a sharp rock. a vine to use as a whip. Or even fething martial arts techniques-- SOMETHING other than brute strength. Because if you want to go brute strength, no human can equal the Orks anyway. Even Space Marines are inferior to the higher up Orks in raw physical power-- whom are capable of tearing apart a Space Marine like he's nothing.

To use a better reference... the beast may be stronger, more cunning, and more biologically adapted to warfare... but that doesn't matter once you pump them full of enough high caliber explosive ammunition. Or psychic energy. Or power sword.


[summons the spirit of Zero Punctuation]
Besides, Kratos used weapons to kill the giant beasts he took down, and are YOU more manly than Kratos? No? Then shaddaaaaap!

 Melissia wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Large dogs are more dangerous than wolves anyway.

What makes you say that?

Many breeds of large dogs have been raised and trained for aggression and brutality-- it's in their genes, and we put it there. Wolves, on the other hand, are animals instead of bred domesticated beasts-- a wolf, threatened, will likely retreat from danger unless you're threatening their children. They don't have the upbringing of the large dogs, and their genes are not artificially tweaked through breeding, but rather, natural selection.

Wolves are not pets, and should never be treated like such; that said, they are also still not quite as dangerous to humans as large dogs are.

Ever seen a dog/wolf hybrid? Imagine a 200+lbs wolf that will either be highly aggressive (more people have been killed by wolf dogs (wogs? dolfs?) than by wolves) or a big, lovable ball of fun.


Edit:

 Melissia wrote:


[summons the spirit of Zero Punctuation]
Besides, Kratos used weapons to kill the giant beasts he took down, and are YOU more manly than Kratos? No? Then shaddaaaaap!

Kratos is on the Primarch level, but with balls (literally! How many Primarchs got laid?)

Despite the mythology I thought it was virtually unknown for wolves to kill people in reality?

It is, Mr Morden. It is.

The wolves were brought up in the context of a man going out and beating one to death with his bare hands to prove his big and tough he was.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Despite the mythology I thought it was virtually unknown for wolves to kill people in reality?

I know of one case in the wild, vs. 20 plus each with bears and cougars (the large predatory cat, not your ex's mom)

Edit:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
It is, Mr Morden. It is.

The wolves were brought up in the context of a man going out and beating one to death with his bare hands to prove his big and tough he was.

There was a guy who beat a bear to death with a piece of firewood, and one dude killed a cougar with a Swiss Army Knife - while it was chewing on him and one fellow literally strangled a cougar that was attacking his dogs.

Ah beautiful BC - where every day is fenaras (or where ever the Space Wolves come from)

Don't tempt me to start making yo mamma jokes now...

 Melissia wrote:
Don't tempt me to start making yo mamma jokes now...

Some folks aren't to familiar with local wildlife - imagine if I said "did you hear about that guy who strangled a cougar?"