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VanHammer wrote: Since its been mentioned a few times... can someone explain to me how you would choke an avatar?
They are hot iron with a molten lava core, they dont exactly need to breath, have no lungs, and wouldnt need oxygen for cellular respiration seeing as they are made of metal.
And as far as primarchs go, I agree that they probably have a lot of plot armor and padding because their feats are written of like they are a big deal, but if they were so strong I doubt wining ANY 1 on 1 fight would be worth writing about, and even so they would be written about more frequently than "primarch X killed (insert strong being here) that one time".
"Fulgrim choked an Avatar of Khaine out" is something of a myth passed around by the fanbase.
He didn't suffocate it through strangulation. He literally crushed its neck, and the molten metals and warpfire comprising it exploded from the sudden release.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Peregrine wrote: Of course it's based on realism. Your argument is based on the premise that a laspistol will behave in a realistic manner and not suddenly get billions of times its usual firepower just because Marbo holds it. If you want to declare that realism has no place in 40k then you can no longer object to Marbo killing all of the primarchs.
Fortunately there's an easy way out, you just accept that realism belongs in 40k. Too bad you'll also then have to accept that the most likely explanation for the ridiculous primarch feats is the exaggeration the BL authors admit they do.
The third definition is the one I had in mind. Or rather, it is the one that applies to this discussion, since my exact words were "grounded in reality", which is to say, 40k tries to paint a consistent universe (Except when it doesn't), but it does not at all try to be accurately represent or depict our reality.
Troll harder.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/04 08:29:14
Peregrine wrote: Fortunately there's an easy way out, you just accept that realism belongs in 40k. Too bad you'll also then have to accept that the most likely explanation for the ridiculous primarch feats is the exaggeration the BL authors admit they do.
Except that is not the most likely explanation, because as I stated a few posts up (which you ignored) it contradicts the motivations of all involved and the existence of a human empire.
The most likely explanation is that the fluff is accurate, except where it contradicts itself. The BL get out clause is just to smooth over the contradictions.
You are trying to argue that pretty much the entire background is inaccurate and exaggerated, which is far more complicated, as it would make the background inconsistent with the current setting. it calls for you to 'make up' thousands of alternative explanations as to why things turned out the way they did.
BL did not say that they always exaggerate as you are trying to make out. What they said sounded more like they 'maybe' exaggerate 'sometimes'.
Just to clarify one point; I've never heard of some Greater Daemons being the size of a warhound, where's that from?
Daemonic Angron was the size of a warhound and he towered over Bloodthirsters...
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
Just Dave wrote: Just to clarify one point; I've never heard of some Greater Daemons being the size of a warhound, where's that from?
Daemonic Angron was the size of a warhound and he towered over Bloodthirsters...
An'ggrath the Unbound.
Deathwatch - Mark of the Xenos states as much as well.
Just Dave wrote: Just to clarify one point; I've never heard of some Greater Daemons being the size of a warhound, where's that from?
Daemonic Angron was the size of a warhound and he towered over Bloodthirsters...
An'ggrath the Unbound.
Deathwatch - Mark of the Xenos states as much as well.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
Smacks wrote: Except that is not the most likely explanation, because as I stated a few posts up (which you ignored) it contradicts the motivations of all involved and the existence of a human empire.
But it doesn't. Primarchs can be valuable, especially as leaders of conventional armies, even if they don't have "ignore lascannon to the face" level durability.
You are trying to argue that pretty much the entire background is inaccurate and exaggerated, which is far more complicated, as it would make the background inconsistent with the current setting. it calls for you to 'make up' thousands of alternative explanations as to why things turned out the way they did.
No, I'm arguing that the ridiculous primarch feats are exaggerated, which is only a small subset of the overall fluff. And it only requires a single explanation: accounts of the primarchs have been wildly exaggerated in the 10,000 years since the Heresy to make them into more heroic figures. Which is exactly what the BL authors admit to doing.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Might be a little late to the party but I haven't seen the actual piece in question posted in full anywhere. Here is one of the original tellings.
Index Astartes: Luna Wolves wrote:The two fought together on many occasions. At the fortified city of Reillis, a Human settlement unwilling to accept the Emperor's beneficent will, the defending army used secret tunnels to infiltrate behind the besieging Imperial army and hundreds of shock troops swamped the command encampment. Unprepared and unarmoured, the Emperor and Horus fought back to back until a plasma blast stunned Horus and sent him staggering to the floor. The Emperor stood over the Primarch and refused to give ground until reinforcements arrived to drive their attackers back. On the Ork-infested planet of Gorro, Horus repaid the debt by hacking the arm from a huge, frenzied Greenskin warlord as it struggled to choke the Emperor's life out of him.
To me this sounds like the Emperor was in no real danger, the Ork was struggling, maybe with little success. Perhaps after Reillis theEmperor wanted to give Horus and ego boost and allowed himself to be save.
I think the comments about a Primarch being hit by a Lascannon are not about Mortarion but Corax in Raven's Flight when he launches his 1 man assault on the Iron Warriors.
Also it was said why would a Primarch go down and fight in a battle that would not require his capability, why wouldn't they, they are soldiers after all. They do not just fight but they direct, command and inspire.
I think with Greater Daemons they can appear to be any size, but something as big as a mountain is a lot easier to hit in the face with everyone gun you have.
You are trying to argue that pretty much the entire background is inaccurate and exaggerated, which is far more complicated, as it would make the background inconsistent with the current setting. it calls for you to 'make up' thousands of alternative explanations as to why things turned out the way they did.
No, I'm arguing that the ridiculous primarch feats are exaggerated, which is only a small subset of the overall fluff. And it only requires a single explanation: accounts of the primarchs have been wildly exaggerated in the 10,000 years since the Heresy to make them into more heroic figures. Which is exactly what the BL authors admit to doing.
I see what you are saying Peregrine, but doesn't that depend on from the perspective of how the story is told? In the case of the Heresy series we are told as if we are there, experiencing it ourselves. We're not being told the story from the account of someone else.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/03/04 10:07:14
Pilau Rice wrote: I see what you are saying Peregrine, but doesn't that depend on from the perspective of how the story is told? In the case of the Heresy series we are told as if we are there, experiencing it ourselves. We're not being told the story from the account of someone else.
Not according to the BL authors:
"Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it. Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths."
- Marc Gascoigne, Editor, Black Library
In 40k there is no such thing as the omniscient and infallible narrator.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
I don't need to. The supposed feats of the primarchs are so utterly stupid that the only sensible explanation is that they're in-universe myths.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Peregrine wrote: I don't need to. The supposed feats of the primarchs are so utterly stupid that the only sensible explanation is that they're in-universe myths.
Pilau Rice wrote: I see what you are saying Peregrine, but doesn't that depend on from the perspective of how the story is told? In the case of the Heresy series we are told as if we are there, experiencing it ourselves. We're not being told the story from the account of someone else.
Not according to the BL authors:
"Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it. Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths."
- Marc Gascoigne, Editor, Black Library
In 40k there is no such thing as the omniscient and infallible narrator.
Does the Horus Heresy series have the 40k symbol on it though? Genuine question.
40k
Spoiler:
Horus Heresy
Spoiler:
I haven't got a back image though so I am not sure.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/04 10:34:47
Personally, I still feel that quote and subsequent comment is a bit of a cop-out, oft used prevent others disagreeing with you and discussions reaching a conclusion, I have to say.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
Void Dragon, that phase sword was excellent catch! Well done sir! (Amusingly enough, in actual game phase sword is just as effective against Primarch as normal power sword, but yes, we can accept that in background it would be more effective.)
As for Luther, the idea that is vastly more powerful than any other chaos marine, Abaddon included does not sit well with me. If Primarchs truly were like Superman, and Chaos can raise a half-marine on their level, why the hell Imperium still stands?
In IA there were these stories about Primarchs doing amazing things, but to me and many others these were really obviously mythologised versions of the events (I mean are we supposed to believe the mountain lifting?) Then BL took these literally and run with it. This is where the disagreement comes from. Some of us like to think that these things are still myths, some want to take them as historical facts.
Every one agrees that Primarchs were powerful, but the disagreement is about how powerful. I mean I agree that a Primarch can beat a greater daemon, but this does not mean that a Primarch needs to be as strong and tough as a greater daemon. And when we get to the pure comicbook superhero territory, to me it just gets lame. I mean their heroics become less impressive if they were so invincible, of course they will succeed if they're like Superman!
Personally, I still feel that quote and subsequent comment is a bit of a cop-out, oft used prevent others disagreeing with you and discussions reaching a conclusion, I have to say.
Thanks Dave, will double check though later, just in case
I agree, it makes any discussion you have pointless as you can just pull that out of your ass and say well neer neer neer. You might as well not even have a background section anywhere because it's all lies
In IA there were these stories about Primarchs doing amazing things, but to me and many others these were really obviously mythologised versions of the events (I mean are we supposed to believe the mountain lifting?) Then BL took these literally and run with it. This is where the disagreement comes from. Some of us like to think that these things are still myths, some want to take them as historical facts.
What this mythic tale, which is recounted as a mythic tale?
Index Astartes: Iron Hands wrote:According to one often recounted mythic tale, he once challenged a Storm Giant to a competition of strength. The giant lifted a mountain between his hands and set it back down a mile away. The giant's laugh died as Ferrus lifted the entire mountain range onto his back, carrying it to a neighbouring island. The humbled giant was never seen again.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/04 11:14:31
Peregrine wrote: No, I'm arguing that the ridiculous primarch feats are exaggerated, which is only a small subset of the overall fluff. And it only requires a single explanation: accounts of the primarchs have been wildly exaggerated in the 10,000 years since the Heresy to make them into more heroic figures. Which is exactly what the BL authors admit to doing.
That isn't 'exactly' what they admit to doing at all.
Your entire argument seems to be based on the assumption that 'meat < metal', but this is a fallacy. Firstly you don't know what the the Primarchs were made of, aside from they appeared human. Secondly even if they are completely organic... Spider silk is organic and is many times stronger than steel. Who knows what kind of near-indestructible tissue the Emperor could engineer with his supreme intellect, and 28,000 years of science ahead of what we have have now.
Then in order to corroborate this assumption, you require just about every account of the primarch's feats, and every description GW has ever provided of them to be an exaggeration. And you are trying to twist a non-committal BL quote, to make a case for this.
I will concede that 'some' things are clearly exaggerations. For example in the 2nd edition Codex Space wolves, there is a legend of Russ picking up a mountain and moving it. However this is actually presented as a Fenrisian legend. However primarchs being able to survive heavy weapons does not seem ridiculous, especially when you consider that they were built as super weapons. And there are numerous accounts of this happening, which support the idea.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/04 12:22:56
In IA there were these stories about Primarchs doing amazing things, but to me and many others these were really obviously mythologised versions of the events (I mean are we supposed to believe the mountain lifting?) Then BL took these literally and run with it. This is where the disagreement comes from. Some of us like to think that these things are still myths, some want to take them as historical facts.
Every one agrees that Primarchs were powerful, but the disagreement is about how powerful. I mean I agree that a Primarch can beat a greater daemon, but this does not mean that a Primarch needs to be as strong and tough as a greater daemon. And when we get to the pure comicbook superhero territory, to me it just gets lame. I mean their heroics become less impressive if they were so invincible, of course they will succeed if they're like Superman!
I share your distaste for the "comic levels of proportion". It is for that reason that I do not read the superman comics. Superman is Superman, and the best the writers can throw at him is a human business man with a seemingly endless supply of kryptonite. It's just bad writing.
In WH40k, the Emperor is clearly the superman figure, whose powers are simply unmatched. However there is a large difference in the writing. The Emperor is not fighting on the front lines of the Imperium. His creations (or half of them) have betrayed or forsaken him, and for lack of better terms, his heart has been broken. He no longer has the will to lead humanity. He has relegated himself to roles essential to their survival (astronomicon, golden throne sealing the webway, etc). What loyal Primarchs remain are like mini-supermen, who exist in a story full of evil counterparts (greater daemons) who out number them many thousand to one. Even if "normal" marines, or standard humans pose virtually no threat to them, there are still other beings in that universe that do.
per the GK codex there are 666 "named" greater daemons that are known (shared knowledge of the Eldar and the Black Library, and the Seers on Titan in the Liber Daemonica). Those are such beings as M'chathan, Vrachs, and Arangaoth the Unbound, who are immensely powerful... and I'll repeat, there are 666 of them known. There are only a handful of Primarchs.
That also excludes those greater daemons that are not named... Who knows how many of them there could be at a given time.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/04 15:24:21
This argument hinges on the hilarious notion that 40k is at all grounded in reality. It isn't. Not when you have normal human men snapping the necks of Tyranid Warriors, or guys like Yarrick who can take a headbutt from an Ork the size of a dreadnought.
Only one thing wrong in your post, Ghazkhull is noted to have been roughly 20 feet tall, so Yarrick was head-slammed by a two-storey building made of tank armour and extremely dens orkoid flesh, and then proceeded to survive a ground-shaking duel, and actually defeat 'ol Ghazy
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/04 15:32:41
This argument hinges on the hilarious notion that 40k is at all grounded in reality. It isn't. Not when you have normal human men snapping the necks of Tyranid Warriors, or guys like Yarrick who can take a headbutt from an Ork the size of a dreadnought.
Only one thing wrong in your post, Ghazkhull is noted to have been roughly 20 feet tall, so Yarrick was head-slammed by a two-storey building made of tank armour and extremely dens orkoid flesh, and then proceeded to survive a ground-shaking duel, and actually defeat 'ol Ghazy
Yeah but we all know that Yarrick is actually one of the missing two primarchs
This argument hinges on the hilarious notion that 40k is at all grounded in reality. It isn't. Not when you have normal human men snapping the necks of Tyranid Warriors, or guys like Yarrick who can take a headbutt from an Ork the size of a dreadnought.
Only one thing wrong in your post, Ghazkhull is noted to have been roughly 20 feet tall, so Yarrick was head-slammed by a two-storey building made of tank armour and extremely dens orkoid flesh, and then proceeded to survive a ground-shaking duel, and actually defeat 'ol Ghazy
Yeah but we all know that Yarrick is actually one of the missing two primarchs
BlaxicanX wrote: It isn't OTT because it's the only way it makes sense without plot armor.
If Primarchs could be killed by something as ordinary as sniper rounds to the head, or a shotgun to the face, none of them would have lived long enough to even make it to the Horus Heresy- they would have all been killed off eventually during the Great Crusade, considering the caliber of enemies they fight.
As far as "are they invulnerable". Well. Fast-forward to the 41st millennium, how many Primarchs are around? Exactly. They obviously are not invulnerable.
So lets say it happens and you shot a primarch in the head does it just bounce off like a BB or disappear because the plot armor wouldn't let it happen because it would kill him?
/Warning\ I am a stranger to those arguments.
Unless I am mistaken, in one of the BL books I recently read (I think it was the oneabout Sanguinius though I am not sure), a SM character survives a boltround to the head, while being unhelmeted.
So I guess an antitank missile to a primarch would hurt him, of course, but not fell him.
In IA there were these stories about Primarchs doing amazing things, but to me and many others these were really obviously mythologised versions of the events (I mean are we supposed to believe the mountain lifting?) Then BL took these literally and run with it. This is where the disagreement comes from. Some of us like to think that these things are still myths, some want to take them as historical facts.
Every one agrees that Primarchs were powerful, but the disagreement is about how powerful. I mean I agree that a Primarch can beat a greater daemon, but this does not mean that a Primarch needs to be as strong and tough as a greater daemon. And when we get to the pure comicbook superhero territory, to me it just gets lame. I mean their heroics become less impressive if they were so invincible, of course they will succeed if they're like Superman!
I share your distaste for the "comic levels of proportion". It is for that reason that I do not read the superman comics. Superman is Superman, and the best the writers can throw at him is a human business man with a seemingly endless supply of kryptonite. It's just bad writing.
In WH40k, the Emperor is clearly the superman figure, whose powers are simply unmatched. However there is a large difference in the writing. The Emperor is not fighting on the front lines of the Imperium. His creations (or half of them) have betrayed or forsaken him, and for lack of better terms, his heart has been broken. He no longer has the will to lead humanity. He has relegated himself to roles essential to their survival (astronomicon, golden throne sealing the webway, etc). What loyal Primarchs remain are like mini-supermen, who exist in a story full of evil counterparts (greater daemons) who out number them many thousand to one. Even if "normal" marines, or standard humans pose virtually no threat to them, there are still other beings in that universe that do.
per the GK codex there are 666 "named" greater daemons that are known (shared knowledge of the Eldar and the Black Library, and the Seers on Titan in the Liber Daemonica). Those are such beings as M'chathan, Vrachs, and Arangaoth the Unbound, who are immensely powerful... and I'll repeat, there are 666 of them known. There are only a handful of Primarchs.
That also excludes those greater daemons that are not named... Who knows how many of them there could be at a given time.
Personally, it's for some of those reasons that I've actually grown to like the power levels of the Primarchs, as displayed by Black Library.
They're not Superman or invincible; they still have character flaws, vulnerabilities and can be killed. But, they are just 20 individuals, created by the Emperor (and likely the Chaos Gods or at least the power of the warp) to conquer the entire galaxy. The Space Marines are an incredible feat of engineering, but their leaders, the guys that the Emperor dedicated so much work and resources to? They're something else altogether.
When you consider who created them, why he created them, and how he created them; I like the power levels of the Primarchs, particularly compared to Greater Daemons/Daemon Princes. They seem to have much of the same capabilities, just within a smaller frame and a fraction of the overall number/quantity. I mean, if you see them as the Heroes of Order against the Daemons of Chaos, then they are still only 20 truly exceptional individuals against well over 600 similarly powerful beings.
So with this paragraph in mind, I can understand why a Primarch can survive so much damage; show such strength, intelligence or skill at arms; demonstrate such psychic ability or latency; and be capable of turning aside tanks or tearing through some of the toughest armour.
They are far more than human or even Space Marine, and I think that's one of the hard parts to grasp; particularly as they still somewhat appear it.
But they can still be killed or wounded, and they are not invincible as some may see them. And still, in their heart or character; they are human, and suffer for it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/04 15:52:30
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
They are far more than human or even Space Marine, and I think that's one of the hard parts to grasp; particularly as they still somewhat appear it.
But they can still be killed or wounded, and they are not invincible as some may see them. And still, in their heart or character; they are human, and suffer for it.
I like that part of your post Space marines are humans that have been turned up to 11, and Primarchs are space marines turned up to 11.
All flaws included (The bigger they are, the harder they fall)
Dave, the guardsman, had serious doubts about this attack, the enemy trenches were crawling with heretical cultists and some huge guys in nasty looking power armour. but the general had ordered an attack, and dave didn't fancy getting executed by steve the commisar for using his brains and refusing the suicidal order.
They crept through nomans land, and amazingly the enemy sentries were either blind, or asleep. Dave and his squad pulled the pins from their grenades and tossed them into the enemy trench, 3, 2, a few started cries 1 BOOM. he lost his footing briefly and the enemy heavy weapon nests opened fire. Stan got blown to pieces by a shot that would have hit him if he hadnt stumbled. he followed steve, with a slight grin, if he was going to die, he was sure Steve would already be dead.
The trench was an abatoir, and with shots whistling by his head he leadpt in, only to be knocked off his feet by Steves head. miraculously he avoided being impaled on a spike by being knocked sensless, but now he was on his back, in a trench, surrounded by body parts, the only one of his squad to make it, and facing a really really huge guy in really nasty spiky armour with a nasty looking power sword. the soldier turned, pointed his pistol at Dave, and pulled the trigger... 'click'
The gun was empty and the soldier discarded it, took a 2 handed grip on his sword and with a cry prepared to slice dave limb from limb. remembering his training, dave lifted his lasgun, and the bayonet on it to use as a makeshift spear turned his head and closed his eyes.
The soldier impaled himself on it with a grunt. the bayonet slipped through a crack in the armour, no doubt from one of the grenades that had preceeded them into the trench. hardly believing his luck, and after making brief eyecontact, he pulled the trigger with a grin...
Dave the guardsman is a pathetic, uncordinated, clumsy guardsman who is more frightened by his own side, than he is of the enemy. He is the main character, so he has Plot armour. and this plot armour saves him...
1) he stumbles and Stan gets killed instead of him
2) he follows Steve and steve dies instead of him,
3) as steve dies, he saves Dave by knocking him off his feet
4) the marine facing him has used all his ammo
5) the marine impales himself on Daves bayonet through a hole in his armour
6) this saves Dave because he then pulls the trigger on his lasgun, and kills the marine
Dave was saved 6 (SIX) times by plot armour
if dave, an imperial guardsman of dubious quality can be saved by plot armour (being the main character and all) then god help anyone fighting against anyone IMPORTANT!
Peregrine wrote: The supposed feats of the primarchs are so utterly stupid that the only sensible explanation is that they're in-universe myths.
This.
Horus Heresy: Betrayal, for those of us that actually read the introduction, is written from the point of view of a scribe that collected accounts of the 4 legions found within that book, as well as stories concerning the Emperor's rise to power, the Unification Wars, and so on.
This scribe collected journals, incomplete texts, 3rd hand accounts (at best), and so on to compile Betrayal. Some of the stories might be 100% accurate, some of the stories might be allegories based loosely on actual events, and some might be completely false. That's the whole point. There are very few witnesses to a number of the events, many of which are larger than life Paul Bunyan type stories. How many Space Marines were with the Emperor and Horus and actually saw the Emperor being attacked by a giant Ork? 1? 12? And how many of those did the scribe of Betrayal interview? 0?
To put complete stock in these stories would be foolish. To dismiss them out of hand as fan-wankery is missing the point of the book.
madtankbloke wrote: Sanguinius, the primarch, was confident about the attack.
He flew over no-man's land with his wings, and amazingly beat the living gak out of the enemy sentries. Sanguinius pulled his sword out. The enemy heavy weapon nests opened fire, Sanguinius jinked out the way with super human speed. Guardsman Stan got blown to pieces by a shot that would have hit Sanguinius if he hadn't been so awesome.
The trench was an abattoir, and with shots whistling by his head he swooped in, miraculously he avoided being impaled on a spike with his lightning reflexes, but now he was on his feet, in a trench, surrounded by body parts, the only one to make it, and facing a really really huge guy in really nasty spiky armour with a nasty looking power sword. the soldier turned, pointed his pistol at Sanguinius but before he could pull the trigger... Sanguinius hoisted him high above his head and then slammed him across his knee, shattering the man's armour and snapping his back like a twig...
Sanguinius doesn't need plot armour.
fixed
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/04 17:07:07
This argument hinges on the hilarious notion that 40k is at all grounded in reality. It isn't. Not when you have normal human men snapping the necks of Tyranid Warriors, or guys like Yarrick who can take a headbutt from an Ork the size of a dreadnought.
Only one thing wrong in your post, Ghazkhull is noted to have been roughly 20 feet tall, so Yarrick was head-slammed by a two-storey building made of tank armour and extremely dens orkoid flesh, and then proceeded to survive a ground-shaking duel, and actually defeat 'ol Ghazy
Emperor needed to be saved from a super ork boss (which was similar to Ghazghkull) and Yarrick defeated Ghazghkull, so we can conclude that Yarrick is more powerful than Emperor!
This is why we really cannot deduce actual powerlevels from who defeated whom. So Primarchs defeating greater daemons actually does no tell us which ones are actually mightier.
Personally I'd assume Primarchs to be about equal to a weak Greater Daemon, while most powerful Daemons would be much more powerful. Primarch would still win though, because they're heroes of the story. I just think it is a better story if they beat someone that was mightier than them.
Whew, a lot of stuff was written whilst I was out - warning, long post, but I feel I should address a "few" points.
En Excelsis wrote:I won't get too esoteric here but that's why religion in our world still even exists. The contents of the Christian Bible are no more or less factually validated than any other piece of human history. If those events could be genuinely disproven than religion as we know it would not exist.
I'm fairly sure that the scientific understanding of the modern man has disproven a lot of what the bible says. Evolution, anyone? Big bang? The actual age of the planet?
Petty facts do not override faith. What they do is cause people to look for excuses, such as Creationism or the movement of Old-earth proponents. That, or simply dismissing science as heretical lies. Either way, there is a correlation between the level of religion and the level of education when you look at studies. Here is an interesting poll regarding the subject; take note of the article's second half.
En Excelsis wrote:So than why argue about the contents of the story at all? Would not be equally logical to just dismiss everything in this same way? Where does that line get drawn?
We all draw the line differently, depending both on whatever material we have been most exposed to (shaping our understanding of the setting) as well as simple personal preferences. In 40k, this is working as intended. It is a sad, sad thing that a lot of fans still have not realised that this means that a lot of topics will quite simply not allow a consensus.
Smacks wrote:By that reasoning daemons aren't real either.
Perhaps they aren't. Perhaps what we see in the fights on the tabletop is really just myth and legend.
It's not a hold I view myself, in part because the existence of daemons is not common knowledge within the setting and thus would not be flaunted the same way in "propaganda" material. However, the point still stands - it is up to you to decide.
Smacks wrote:1: If the Primarchs are much less impressive, then why did the Emperor create them in the first place?
Your theory fails to explain this. The Emperor wanted super weapons. If all he was going to get was mediocre weapons, why would he bother?
Allow me...
Spoiler:
By the reasoning you try to apply here, Space Marines are only "mediocre weapons" as well. Maybe they are, but even then they are still better than the common IG grunt, and rare elite troops have their use when you need to focus as much firepower (or swordpower) in as small a place as possible - such as during a boarding action, or even just by being able to transport more combat power with a smaller amount of spaceships. Perhaps this is why the Adeptus Astartes are called Space Marines instead of Space Warriors, Space Knights, Space Troopers, or even Space Supersoldiers? As the Emperor began the Great Crusade, Earth was but one planet, and to conquer an entire galaxy with the resources of a single world it takes something more than regular conscripts, as manpower and transportation are the most obvious limitations for such a campaign.
By the same reasoning, Space Marines could be "Primarchs -1". Not quite as effective, yet much easier and faster to produce (upgrade of adolescent recruits rather than having to breed them from scratch).
Smacks wrote:Why were the Chaos gods so scared of them that they united to destroy them?
Again if they are unimpressive, why would the gods care? Let alone put aside their differences and team up.
Perhaps they were scared more of the Emperor and his plans for the galaxy (a united ordered galaxy offers less potential for Chaos), rather than the tools he used to achieve this? Apart from the Chaos Gods being ideas made reality rather than actual living beings, and thus likely incapable of feeling "fear", I doubt they were scared of something when - supposedly - they were able to fill random people such as Luther with as much martial power to render them equals in a duel.
Smacks wrote:If the Emperor is less impressive, how come all 4 Chaos gods combined are still too weak to destroy his creation.
They wanted them dead, but had to settle for scattering. This suggests that the Emperor is indeed very powerful.
Or maybe Chaos, just like the Emperor, is not omnipotent. That would be the most obvious explanation, I think.
Going by what the books suggest, Chaos acts through agents corrupted by its influence.
Smacks wrote:Why did the Emperor put so much energy into finding them?
If the were unimpressive, why bother? or why not make them again? Or try something else?
Much energy? The Great Crusade happened either way. The Primarchs were picked up as humanity's forces ventured outward.
The Emperor did nothing to find his Primarchs - he didn't have to, given that it was just a matter of time until his troops would pick up traces or rumours of their whereabouts he could then investigate to reclaim the fruits of his lost project. Some even came to find him.
I agree that ít seems strange that the Emperor did not simply breed a new batch of Primarchs. Obviously he had the tech. Maybe he did not think it was worth the effort himself?
Or, here's a thought, maybe he was no longer able to, because one or more of the scientists who created the Primarchs were gone. Maybe it was the scientists who sent the Primarchs away. Be it because they were agents of Chaos, or because they genuinely felt it was the right thing to do. I mean, come on now, scientists cloning babies for a dictator's conquest army growing a conscience? That's a classic sci-fi trope right there.
This is what the Index Astartes has to say on the subject:
"There are no records as to how the Primarchs became so widely spread across the galaxy. The prevalent theory maintains that as the Primarchs were still incubating in their nascent state in the laboratories of Luna, they were scattered to the far corners of the galaxy. One certainty to arise from this foundation of mystery is the fact that the Emperor subsequently used the lost Primarch's gene-seed as a template for a genetically engineered species of superhumans, the Space Marines."
Smacks wrote:How come they conquered that galaxy?
They did which would indicate they were capable of doing so. The fact that the Human empire still exists is testament to this.
The very fact that the Great Crusade managed to get as far as to pick up the Primarchs in the first place kind of ruins your argument that they were in any way "necessary" for it. It was the Space Marines and their human auxiliary that conquered the galaxy, not the Primarchs, nor even the Emperor, unless we are talking politics.
Void__Dragon wrote:One of many Battleship class starships? Man, this must have been some Black Crusade...
Battleships aren't that rare, especially back then when they were still relatively "fresh" compared to M41.
What do you suggest was on that ship's bridge that was somehow different from any other Chaos vessel? A Traitor Primarch? For you sound as if that's the only thing that could pose a challenge to a Loyalist Primarch.
Void__Dragon wrote:Clearly Dorn destroyed the vast majority of them.
Clearly.
Or maybe some of us just prefer a less weird possibility than a hundred lascannons being installed on some ship's bridge whose crew had no idea Dorn would pay them a visit.
Void__Dragon wrote:Oh, and the very article you clutch to, in descriptions of the Iron Cage, describes Dorn as a "colossus who personally turned back attack after attack".
So? ~8 feet is pretty big, and I never doubted that the Primarchs are capable fighters.
Void__Dragon wrote:And to answer your question in that thread that I forgot to respond to, yes, I know how fast someone would be to swing a sword in a millionth of a second. Mach 3,000, for a lower end figure.
Though you recall the thread wrong, I did that in response to Spartan supporters wanting to make this a book-based feat war, and demonstrated in such a debate the Marine is not chanceless.
It's still a silly notion, yet at the same time a good example of the hyperbole plagueing many BL novels.
Void__Dragon wrote:But provide those conflicting accounts of Primarch formidability please?
If you don't want to accept Dorn's case, and given that the Index Astartes' other accounts offer only vague comparisons (incidents such as young Sanguinius being unharmed by poison "said to burn a man from within in seconds" yet young Leman Russ succumbing to the poison of some villagers' arrows) I would rather wait for someone else to do this - although I kind of doubt that other accounts exist, given that GW's material still treats it as myth and legend, whereas BL novels (and especially Marine novels) are known to exaggerate. I have not read the HH books myself, nor do I have any intention to do so. It's just not my type of story, obviously.
In the end, none of us truly needs to or even can deliver actual "evidence" of any sort regarding the Primarchs' "formidability". As the authors of the novels you cling to have said themselves, this isn't a matter of right or wrong but of overlapping interpretations differing in details. You prefer a more epic and heroic version of 40k, I a more gritty one. This is really all the explanation we need to realise that we cannot possibly come to a consensus, aside perhaps from at least agreeing on the fluff itself not being as reliable as you seem to make it out to be.
To me, the nature of the Primarchs as they seem to you simply invalidates too many constants of the setting, both in terms of technology as well as in warfare. In essence, I don't want unrealistic nigh-unkillable superheroes strutting through battlefields and punching holes in tanks, hence I attempted to analise whether I truly have to accept them - said analysis led me to try and read between the lines of GW's fluff, finally resolving to consider the stories of their exploits as clouded by myth and legend.
Or do you really believe that Ferrus Manus carried "an entire mountain range" on his back from island to island? Do we really *need* to find you something contradicting this, or do you truly consider something as ludicrous as this being even remotely accurate...?
Just Dave wrote:Personally, I still feel that quote and subsequent comment is a bit of a cop-out, oft used prevent others disagreeing with you and discussions reaching a conclusion, I have to say.
Black Library's entire existence is a cop-out for GW when it comes to consistency. Some other dakkanaut once posted an interview of Dan Abnett about the Ultramarines movie in which he said that Black Library was founded specifically to set it apart from the game, as the writers requested more leeway and their stories sometimes cannot afford to conform to a game's static ruleset.
I'm sure you can find the interview on youtube.
What sort of conclusion would you think is even possible given the lack of consistency amongst the fluff? It does not need to tie into each other, hence it often doesn't.
This goes back to GW's whole idea that you as the player are supposed to "make the setting your own", including the creation of your own Space Marine Chapters with your own fluff and colour scheme.
Crimson wrote:In IA there were these stories about Primarchs doing amazing things, but to me and many others these were really obviously mythologised versions of the events (I mean are we supposed to believe the mountain lifting?) Then BL took these literally and run with it. This is where the disagreement comes from. Some of us like to think that these things are still myths, some want to take them as historical facts.
Every one agrees that Primarchs were powerful, but the disagreement is about how powerful. I mean I agree that a Primarch can beat a greater daemon, but this does not mean that a Primarch needs to be as strong and tough as a greater daemon. And when we get to the pure comicbook superhero territory, to me it just gets lame. I mean their heroics become less impressive if they were so invincible, of course they will succeed if they're like Superman!
This.
Pilau Rice wrote:I agree, it makes any discussion you have pointless as you can just pull that out of your ass and say well neer neer neer. You might as well not even have a background section anywhere because it's all lies
In a way, I actually agree - many fluff debates on dakka are somewhat pointless, simply because the fluff is contradictory and it usually bogs down to group A pointing to some book and group B pointing to another.
I'd say that the fluff section still has some value simply to exchange ideas or to inquire about which sources offer what information on some topic (there is usually some small measure of common ground to be had) - but I think it would be naive to expect all such debates to come to a generally accepted consensus when peoples' interpretation of the setting varies so wildly. And this does include not only the gamers and readers, but the authors themselves.
kronk wrote:Horus Heresy: Betrayal, for those of us that actually read the introduction, is written from the point of view of a scribe that collected accounts of the 4 legions found within that book, as well as stories concerning the Emperor's rise to power, the Unification Wars, and so on. This scribe collected journals, incomplete texts, 3rd hand accounts (at best), and so on to compile Betrayal.
Rather interesting. Thanks for adding that.
I will of course assume that the proponents of the "it's accurate" thesis simply did not read that part rather than intentionally omitting it for this discussion.
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You are scaling things with a sort of irrational bias toward individual characters. If a space marine is the equal of two men, and a Primarch is the equal of two space marines, than you have establish a logical scale of "power".
In the reality of WH40k universe, a Space Marine is probably the equal of 100 men, and the Primarchs are the equals of 100 Space Marines. The Emperor is not even on that scale.
It's not about how powerful a single character is when compared to another because 40k is not a boxing match. It's not supposed to focus on a duel between Joe Space Marine and Joe Daemon. It's about a galaxy spanning war that involved the complete destruction of countless species across billions of worlds and often the destruction of the worlds themselves.
a Primarch could logically be the equal of 100 greater daemons. That obviously doesn't sit well with people who have a strong bias against the Space Marines and their particular brand of awesome sauce, it can still fit logically into the universe without offsetting the balance. Even if Sanguinius (for instance) was the better of a 100 greater daemons, that doesn't tip the scale since there are countless thousands of those daemons towering over countless millions of lesser deamons, and working alongside 666 famously badass greater daemons who, when combined represent a much greater "power".
In good works of fiction, it is not necessary to have every individual character be countered by another individual character. Deal with it. If you write a character that can kill 10 men with a glance you don't write in enemies that are groups of ten men. You'd probably want to overwhelm him with a massive scale of enemies that even his immense power will eventually succumb to.
Think Starship troopers... the threat would not be present if we found a bug that was really mean and angry and wanted to eat/kill humans. The threat exists because we found billions if not trillions of those bugs...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/04 17:43:35
