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Brother Captain Alexander wrote:Valhalla had Orks once, once....
If Space Soviets can do it then there should be no problem for Space Wehrmacht Luftwaffe/Panzergrenadiers.

Ya, but Valhalla is also an ice planet where even the Valhallan people have a hard time cultivating food - and even Ork spores need something to grow on.
If you look at Valhalla's background in the 2E Guard Codex, food was a serious concern for both the Orks as well as the Valhallans during the conflict - which is why the final stand took place in front of the huge biovats.

BlaxicanX wrote:
It'll be a stalemate until the Imperium eventually sends Abaddon running back to the Eye of Terror. After that, they'll sweep over to Armageddon and crush the orks there, for the 2nd time, then move on to Leviathan.

Blessed be the mind for small for doubt!

 Lynata wrote:
Ya, but Valhalla is also an ice planet where even the Valhallan people have a hard time cultivating food - and even Ork spores need something to grow on.
If you look at Valhalla's background in the 2E Guard Codex, food was a serious concern for both the Orks as well as the Valhallans during the conflict - which is why the final stand took place in front of the huge biovats.

Armageddon Steel Legion already did it once, they just left feral Ork alive so that their solders could train a little more.
If they did it once they can certainly did it again.

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:Armageddon Steel Legion already did it once, they just left feral Ork alive so that their solders could train a little more.

The propaganda division approves of your commitment to the spiritual health of the Emperor's troops.

 Trondheim wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
It'll be a stalemate until the Imperium eventually sends Abaddon running back to the Eye of Terror. After that, they'll sweep over to Armageddon and crush the orks there, for the 2nd time, then move on to Leviathan.

Blessed be the mind for small for doubt!

Do you have proof to the contrary?

Thought not.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
On a note of millions of Ork spores remaining in Armageddon...

Valhalla had Orks once, once....
If Space Soviets can do it then there should be no problem for Space Wehrmacht Luftwaffe/Panzergrenadiers.

In Valhallas case, I don't expect its so much as valhallans erraadicating the spores, but more likely the Orksg spores freeze at sub optimal growth temperatures.
Valhallas climate being the biggest factor in their favor.

Armageddon has no such luxury.

Even though Ghaz left and left them "leaderless" as yall are saying. Perhaps Nazdreg has finished work on Prozan and is now the commander of the Armageddon Orkz.

Ya its kind of clear that EVENTUALLY the Imperium will win. The question is only when, not if. The Orks lost their best commander, supply lines cut, huge ammounts of their war material are destroyed. Im not saying he Orks wont put up a fight but in another 10-20 years the war will be over.

Thats why Gaz left. He realized he was losing so he decided to find a new battle

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Trondheim wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
It'll be a stalemate until the Imperium eventually sends Abaddon running back to the Eye of Terror. After that, they'll sweep over to Armageddon and crush the orks there, for the 2nd time, then move on to Leviathan.

Blessed be the mind for small for doubt!

Do you have proof to the contrary?

Thought not.

Do you have proof that Abaddon isn't going to spank the Imperium silly.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Armageddon_Ork_Forces

There are a couple of Ork commanders, it may be Gazzys forces were left to his lieutenant, it may be one of the other warlords incorporated Gazzys horde.

Needless to say, there is still Leadership in Armageddon.

Eetion wrote:
Valhallas climate being the biggest factor in their favor.

Armageddon has no such luxury.

Armageddon has an auto-cleanse feature... a hot one...

Eetion wrote:

Do you have proof that Abaddon isn't going to spank the Imperium silly.

There is a "rock" in his path, he's going to stumble and it won't end well for him.

 1hadhq wrote:

Eetion wrote:
Valhallas climate being the biggest factor in their favor.

Armageddon has no such luxury.

Armageddon has an auto-cleanse feature... a hot one...

Eetion wrote:

Do you have proof that Abaddon isn't going to spank the Imperium silly.

There is a "rock" in his path, he's going to stumble and it won't end well for him.

If it was an auto cleanse there would be no feral orks on armageddon, in the jungles between armageeddon prime and secondus, Snikrot would not exist. Needless to say, its no where near an auto cleanse.

And Abaddon's rock was taken down once already, during the EoT campaign. what makes you think it will play out any differently this time?

 Eetion wrote:
Needless to say, its no where near an auto cleanse.

And Abaddon's rock was taken down once already, during the EoT campaign. what makes you think it will play out any differently this time?

ok, the auto-cleanse is a bit regionally limited...

I also think we think about a different rock.
How about "the rock" ?

Pales in comparison to the planet killer.

 Eetion wrote:

And Abaddon's rock was taken down once already, during the EoT campaign. what makes you think it will play out any differently this time?

He thinks about the other "rock", about the one where:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eetion wrote:
Pales in comparison to the planet killer.

Isn't that destroyed by combined ELdar/Imperium fleet?
Rock still has Lion in it, and when he awakens he will kick Abaddon back into the Eye.

 Eetion wrote:
Pales in comparison to the planet killer.

So you agree, the traitors will look like this:
whilst bathrobe wearing legionaires of the first Legion " rock em " ?

Basically the pale color of the deathwings armor is their last sight before their behind returns to the hellhole they crawled out of.


In other news, the war of armageddon isn't a classic "armageddon" since it never gets to be the last battle. Just a typical GW-name..
Sure, orks and humans weren't unhappy with this campaign. Correct me if I am wrong. please.

If the EoT campaign was retconned to be just before the Crusade starts and thus wiping chaos players success in the campaign. It also stands to reason that their losses are wiped also. So the Planet killer is active and not crippled spinning off into space.

Now back to Orks. Can't help but feel the Orks are gonna pull through and win this. All depends on the war in space I think. If the Orks can contest, then ultimately they will carry the day.

Galdos wrote:The Orks lost their best commander, supply lines cut, huge ammounts of their war material are destroyed.

How would their supply lines be cut? At least as per GW's summary, they still hold a number of hive cities - and have human slaves work overtime under brutal Ork masters to forge new war material.

Galdos wrote:Thats why Gaz left. He realized he was losing so he decided to find a new battle

The fluff I read says he got bored with the stalemate.

 Eetion wrote:


Do you have proof that Abaddon isn't going to spank the Imperium silly.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Armageddon_Ork_Forces

There are a couple of Ork commanders, it may be Gazzys forces were left to his lieutenant, it may be one of the other warlords incorporated Gazzys horde.

Needless to say, there is still Leadership in Armageddon.

Can't prove a negative. No dice.

 Lynata wrote:

Galdos wrote:The Orks lost their best commander, supply lines cut, huge ammounts of their war material are destroyed.

How would their supply lines be cut? At least as per GW's summary, they still hold a number of hive cities - and have human slaves work overtime under brutal Ork masters to forge new war material.

Galdos wrote:Thats why Gaz left. He realized he was losing so he decided to find a new battle

The fluff I read says he got bored with the stalemate.

Well, for Ghaz at least that could be viewed as losing. He's planning on a bigger fight elsewhere.

Grey Templar wrote:Well, for Ghaz at least that could be viewed as losing. He's planning on a bigger fight elsewhere.

Point taken.

 Lynata wrote:

Galdos wrote:The Orks lost their best commander, supply lines cut, huge ammounts of their war material are destroyed.

How would their supply lines be cut? At least as per GW's summary, they still hold a number of hive cities - and have human slaves work overtime under brutal Ork masters to forge new war material.

Galdos wrote:Thats why Gaz left. He realized he was losing so he decided to find a new battle

The fluff I read says he got bored with the stalemate.

True, that means all the reforcements and war material is being made on planet but thats the issue, its all on planet stuff.

They no longer have reforcements going in from space (or at least in mass as the Navy has control of the space), This means they need to rely on the hive cities... cities that can have their factories being destroyed by Imperial Surgical strikes or even liberated when the time comes.

The Imperium on the other hand has access to plenty of reforcements from off world. This means the Imperium has the advantage in the long run becasue the Orks will not be able to replenish losses as easily as the Imperium can.

The other line was already covered

Galdos wrote:True, that means all the reforcements and war material is being made on planet but thats the issue, its all on planet stuff.
They no longer have reforcements going in from space (or at least in mass as the Navy has control of the space), This means they need to rely on the hive cities... cities that can have their factories being destroyed by Imperial Surgical strikes or even liberated when the time comes.
The Imperium on the other hand has access to plenty of reforcements from off world. This means the Imperium has the advantage in the long run becasue the Orks will not be able to replenish losses as easily as the Imperium can.

The Orks can also loot the battlefield, though - and Ork reinforcements still arive via space, also.

I think that it may become very interesting in some time, though. The Imperium can send in an equal amount of troops and wargear - whereas the Orks can breed faster, yet may have less equipment ... resulting in more melee charges, followed by looting?

Of course the Orks can loot the battlefield but its only to such a degree.

A real life example is the Sherman Tank. It is famous for being able to easily be repaired. 1 shell may kill the crew but thats all it did, US repair team can easily fix it. However, if an 88mm shell caused an Ammo Racket to explode, the tank was done. Nothing you can do for it.

The same holds true for Orks and looting. If the Orks charge and loose, than they dont gain any loot and they lost materials in the process. If the Orks win the day but gak happens like main battle tanks are hit by massive Plasma charges, there is no recovering that.

The Orks can not spawn resources, there is a finite amount of materials that the Orks can use.

The Orks can still bring in reforcements yes but they are running a blocade as the Imperium controls the space. This SEVERALLY dampers their ability to call in resources.


However the Imperium has none of these problems as they have ample resources they can draw upon from else where that can arrive without a problem.



In short, the Imperium has the potentional to get stronger (or at least keep level) while the Orks can only get weaker.


If the results were anything else, Ghaz would have stayed until he conquered the planet so he can use the hives to create an even bigger Waaagh! He knew he was lossing so he left to return with a bigger Waaagh!

Galdos wrote:However the Imperium has none of these problems as they have ample resources they can draw upon from else where that can arrive without a problem.
In short, the Imperium has the potentional to get stronger (or at least keep level) while the Orks can only get weaker.

You are dismissing a whole lot of factors here, leading to what I believe to be a rather one-sided analysis. Like what the Imperium's armchair generals believe as opposed to the officers that have actually fought Orks and thus know their capabilities.

It takes time for the Imperium to ferry in reinforcements (especially since Ghazzy started to attack and devastate those nearby planets that would have otherwise been able to offer support), whereas the Orks will just keep breeding on-site. Hence me playing with the thought that the Orks could come up with dedicated close combat units to conserve resources - in essence trading bodies for wargear.
And then we have the hives currently controlled by the Orks. They could just begin to dismantle everything and recycle it into armour and weapons.
I'm not saying that the Imperium won't eventually win - but I am saying that it will take a lot of time, and by then there will be nothing left. Pyrrhic victory.

Galdos wrote:If the results were anything else, Ghaz would have stayed until he conquered the planet so he can use the hives to create an even bigger Waaagh! He knew he was lossing so he left to return with a bigger Waaagh!

Again, that is not what GW was saying.
Why are you making this up?

An ork can make a gun simply by thinking that he can.

Orks never run out of material. They simply use what they have in new and interesting ways.

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Eetion wrote:


Do you have proof that Abaddon isn't going to spank the Imperium silly.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Armageddon_Ork_Forces

There are a couple of Ork commanders, it may be Gazzys forces were left to his lieutenant, it may be one of the other warlords incorporated Gazzys horde.

Needless to say, there is still Leadership in Armageddon.

Can't prove a negative. No dice.

You can't prove the results of a campaign with no determind outcome either.

Yet you had no problem asking for proof 'to the contrary' that was going to happen as if your opinion was already proven and valid in fluff. Nothing can be proved either way and to mnake a statement that the Imperium will send Abaddon packing and then be able to sweep all those troops to Armageddon is optimism at its very highest. There's a much chance that Abaddon will win as the Imperium as neither is proven or can be proved at this point.

Orks are the ultimate scavengers, simply cutting a supply line doesn't end the threat. The can chop up burnt out hulls for armour and gargant bitz. Their food supply is mobile being the squigs, grotz and humans they kill. They can reinforce themselves with spore growth. In fact nning a blockade probably annoy the orks trying to get to Armageddon more than the Orks on it already. I'd put money on a 2nd mini waaagh as they rampage through the sector. occuring if the Imperium beats Orks away from Armageddon.

Eetion wrote:I'd put money on a 2nd mini waaagh as they rampage through the sector. occuring if the Imperium beats Orks away from Armageddon.

I thought that's pretty much what Ghazghkull is doing right now.
Armageddon, Season of Fire -> Orks and Imperials hunker down, everybody tries to gear up as best as they can for the next big offense
rest of the sub-sector -> Ghazzy going from planet to planet, probably being a bit bored because he meets so little resistance, but still having a good party due to the massive amounts of destruction his boyz wreak

 Eetion wrote:

You can't prove the results of a campaign with no determind outcome either.

I can't prove tomorrow is Monday, either.

Your semantics are child's play.

BlaxicanX wrote:
It'll be a stalemate until the Imperium eventually sends Abaddon running back to the Eye of Terror. After that, they'll sweep over to Armageddon and crush the orks there, for the 2nd time, then move on to Leviathan.

I admire the enthusiasm but I also pity your nativity as to how difficult those 3 opponents would be to face.

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Eetion wrote:

You can't prove the results of a campaign with no determind outcome either.

I can't prove tomorrow is Monday, either.

Your semantics are child's play.

Yet your happy to make a wild assumption about the imperium beating the Black Crusade.
Too many variables to make a sweeping statement. One side may come out on top, it may turn into a decades long deadlock.
Its extremely unlikely that the Cadian or Segmentum Obscuras can offer any assistance to Armageddon. They have their own war to fight.

One thing the Orks do have going for them is that they have no other considerations.
Imperial forces in Segmentum Solar already have to contend with hive Fleet Leviathan, Calls for aid from the cadian gate, the rising Necron threats, Eldar/Dark Eldar raidersresources are stretched and there are a multitude of smaller wars demanding attention.
Whereas the orks, the following thought process applies
'Big fight ova dere boss!'
'Gud, Grab yurz choppa, weze gonna gut uz some oomies! Letz Go'

All other considerations are secondary.

Also since the majority of the astartes have left the conflict, as its slogging war doesn't suit them, Can the orks take advantage?

Also will the increasing number of orks flocking to the system break the strangle hold the imperial Navy has on the system?