Tropes vs. Women Episode 1: Damsel In Distress

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**Amaya**

Why you post a doctored image of a made game?

**Melissia**

Ah yes, more of the stereotypical and misogynistic "she'll never be happy so ignore her" nonsense. Lovely.

**Dreadclaw69**

Amaya wrote:
Why you post a doctored image of a made game?

How else are you going to get people to bite?

**Melissia**

It was a very sad attempt.

**Ravenous D**

LordofHats wrote:
Also not sure that game is real, cause I can't find a reference to it anywhere.

I'll find the link, from what I read it was an idea for a game for the 7 years Link was asleep in Ocarina.

EDIT: Nevermind it was fan concept that got a lot of posititive feedback.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:
Ah yes, more of the stereotypical and misogynistic "she'll never be happy so ignore her" nonsense. Lovely.

Wow you just jumped straight to conclusions...

I watched a few of her videos and she through a gak fit over Mulan because she dressed like a man, so a possible game where Zelda does the same wont make her happy at all, and actually after looking at her videos in general Im starting to wonder what the hell she actually finds entertaining.

And food for thought: CGPgrey does a whole series of videos on well researched subjects and doesnt need $150,000 dollars. Just saying.

**Melissia**

Ravenous D wrote:
Im starting to wonder what the hell she actually finds entertaining.

Seriously, another person saying this?

It's like people complain about the video without actually watching it.

Complaining about a game doesn't mean you don't like it. I have complaints about city of heroes and guild wars 2, but I still consider them the best MMOs released to date.

Ravenous D wrote:
And food for thought: CGPgrey does a whole series of videos on well researched subjects and doesnt need $150,000 dollars. Just saying.

Good for them. Irrelevant.

**Manchu**

It is okay to think critically about something you enjoy. The damsel trope is an objectification of the feminine. That doesn't make the trope evil or mean it should never be used again. But like any trope it shouldn't be used over and over. And when it has been used over and over, its okay to think about why.

**Melissia**

Also?

The only people who have any right to complain about her raising money for her videos are the people who gave the money in the first place. Seriously, these people willingly gave their money and time to see this set of videos come in to fruition. They weren't coerced. They weren't tricked, or lied to, or misled. She has started to deliver exactly what she promised, even if it isn't as good as it was expected to be, the fact is, the people who gave money to the project did so out of their own free will, and those who DIDN'T give money to the project had and still have no say in the matter.

I mean is this just jealousy or something? Man, I know I'm jealous. I wish I could raise that much money to talk about something I'd already be talking about anyway. But I don't hate her for it

**Ravenous D**

Alright... do me favour, drop the attitude and we can continue. Im not attacking you, Im pointing out flaws in her reasoning.

**Melissia**

Ravenous D wrote:
drop the attitude

There's no "attitude" here. I know you're not attacking me. I never claimed you were.

But you are annoying me through making nonsensical claims, like insinuating that she doesn't enjoy any games because she just so happens to criticize some parts of a few of them.

**Manchu**

Ravenous D wrote:
Alright... do me favour, drop the attitude

You should consider your own attitude.

**Madcat87**

Melissia wrote:
Ravenous D wrote:
drop the attitude
There's no "attitude" here. I know you're not attacking me. I never claimed you were.

But you are annoying me through making nonsensical claims, like insinuating that she doesn't enjoy any games because she just so happens to criticize some parts of a few of them.

Don't bother, this is an extremely common viewpoint help by the majority of those that play video games. You either absolutely adore a game or despise it, no middle ground, no room for critical analysis and if you try to critically analyse a game or *gasp* it's affects on our culture people will just pull out the "at least I'm having fun" line.

**Ravenous D**

Melissia wrote:
Ravenous D wrote:
drop the attitude
There's no "attitude" here. I know you're not attacking me. I never claimed you were.

But you are annoying me through making nonsensical claims, like insinuating that she doesn't enjoy any games because she just so happens to criticize some parts of a few of them.

Alright new start then.

She is going after movies, books, and even lego as well. I havent run into a positive video yet, Im looking for some praise or plan on her part.

And back to the Kickstarter she only asked for $25,000 for the project but is keeping the rest, no I didnt give her my money but anytime that happens and the money isnt returned its hard not to point it out and questioning the motive.

**Manchu**

What motive? She asked for X dollars and people knew she had reached that and still gave more. It's not her motive but the motive of those who gave in excess of her goal that is at issue. Its my guess that they did not give more because they want to hear the same viewpoint as Jimquisition or Yatzee or any of the many many other extremely harsh critics who also think critically about video games. There is room for more perspective. There is room in enjoying a product to engage with it critically.

**Melissia**

Your attitude seems to come from a fundamental misunderstanding of kickstarter.

While many projects provide further bonuses to try to get more money out of people to further fund their project once they've already reached their goal. But they're under no obligation to do so. Once they reach their goal, any money over that is extra-- if people paid in to it to fund a video series, they got the videos once they're done. If people paid in to it to get a dice ring, they get the rings they funded once they're made (although annoyingly, the dicerings have taken a long time to deliver, but that's life-- lots of people sent them incomplete forms of the wrong forms or what not). If people paid in to it to get a game, they get access to the game once it's made.

But the point of kickstarter is not to be a virtual store, rather, it's there to allow people to pitch new ideas and raise money so that they can act them out. That's exactly what she did. And there was no deception.

**Madcat87**

Actually she asked for $6,000 but I ask you why is it a problem that she got so much? She didn't ask for that much, didn't expect that much and since the initial asking of funds her original scope has almost quadrupled in size in an attempt to make use of all the extra funding.

Again I ask why is this a problem? Are you not getting your moneys worth? Oh you didn't pledge anything? So why are you complaining? As far as I'm concerned unless you actually pledge any amount of money you have no right to complain. Wait until those of us that actually funded the project to start making complaints before you start to discredit her.

EDIT: Also here's an interesting thought, maybe, just maybe the reason there are so few if any videos about the positive roles of women in pop culture is because well, there really aren't that many. Or maybe the point of the series isn't to praise those positive representations of women (even though one of the videos will focus on this) but is instead to raise awareness of the lack of positive representations of women in games.

**Melissia**

I kind of wish I did give money, just to spite some of the people who angrily bashed her just for having the audacity to try to ask people for money to help her make videos to put on the internets where she tries to explain her opinion on a topic she holds dear to her heart.

I didn't find her video impressive. But I'm glad she's going through with it despite the attempts of so many people to silence her through bullying.

**Monster Rain**

Manchu wrote:
It is okay to think critically about something you enjoy. The damsel trope is an objectification of the feminine. That doesn't make the trope evil or mean it should never be used again. But like any trope it shouldn't be used over and over. And when it has been used over and over, its okay to think about why.

Of course it is.

It's the attempted "martyrdom" of the video's creator, and the poor execution of the video in question that seem to be the main points of contention.

**Manchu**

What martyrdom are you talking about?

**Monster Rain**

The portrayal of Sarkeesian as the victim of a disproportionate amount of Internet abuse due to her gender, which is then used to shield her from criticism.

**Manchu**

That is what's going on (well, not entirely because of her gender but rather because of the confluence of her gender and her views on gender), regardless if you want to call it martyrdom.

As for shielding her from criticism, the criticism I've seen her has been mostly emotional with a smattering of vague pretension. The video "feminism vs. Facts" was particularly sleazy.

**Melissia**

Manchu wrote:
What martyrdom are you talking about?

Maybe if you consider the constant hateful attacks and attempts to bully her in to silence to be torture? Usually martyrdom is defined as "tortured or killed for one's beliefs", but that's kind of a stretch don't you think? I guess I can see it though. Although that... well... she isn't the one being put in a negative light, there, so I doubt he meant that.

I wouldn't call her a martyr, myself. I would say she's probably a bit braver than me. I don't use my real name or other personally identifiable information, but she does so. I have talked to several women who have received rape or death threats for speaking out about feminist topics... threats that included their address and other personally identifiable information. Some of them became scared enough that they don't even want to leave their house. And I could hardly blame them.

**Monster Rain**

Manchu wrote:
That is what's going on (well, not entirely because of her gender but rather because of the confluence of her gender and her views on gender), regardless if you want to call it martyrdom..

I think it's reasonable to disagree about the former, for reasons outlined earlier in the thread.

Manchu wrote:
As for shielding her from criticism, the criticism I've seen her has been mostly emotional with a smattering of vague pretension. The video "feminism vs. Facts" was particularly sleazy.

That video was even stupider than the one in the OP, which is saying something. As for emotional responses and pretension, neither side has clean hands.

**Manchu**

As far as I can tell, the damsels video clearly and respectfully makes a rather obvious point and even though the point is obvious she offers plenty of evidence. And this is even only part one. I have not seen ITT any argument to back up the outrage certain people have shown over this.

**Cheesecat**

Madcat87 wrote:
Actually she asked for $6,000 but I ask you why is it a problem that she got so much? She didn't ask for that much, didn't expect that much and since the initial asking of funds her original scope has almost quadrupled in size in an attempt to make use of all the extra funding.

Again I ask why is this a problem? Are you not getting your moneys worth? Oh you didn't pledge anything? So why are you complaining? As far as I'm concerned unless you actually pledge any amount of money you have no right to complain. Wait until those of us that actually funded the project to start making complaints before you start to discredit her.

Just because you didn't spend any money on it doesn't mean you can't complain like if she hypothetically used this project to spread racist propaganda I think I'm well within my right to complain.

**Monster Rain**

The point is obvious to the extent that I can't help wondering what the purpose of the video is. I also reject the premise that the use of the trope indicates institutionalized misogyny.

The same people who are outraged by it are of the same ilk as the mouth breathers that make death threats to celebrities and political figures and write racist things on YouTube comments. Their bad behavior should have no bearing on the discussion.

**Melissia**

Cheesecat wrote:
Just because you didn't spend any money on it doesn't mean you can't complain

Completely missing the point here. Someone said that she should refund all of the money that she raised... because... uhm... I have no idea really, because they didn't like what she had to say? And the person who said it was not actually themselves someone who donated any money.

Making their complaints irrelevant. If they had actually donated money, their complaints might have validity because then their investment that helped contribute to her funds for the project. But they didn't. She raised money on kickstarter just like everyone else-- without any deception, without any coercion. People willingly gave this money to her to fund her project.

She is under no obligation to give any of it back, and your opinion is not relevant on the matter. Neither is mine really. It's entirely between her, those who gave her money for her project, and Kickstarter.

Cheesecat wrote:
like if she hypothetically used this project to spread racist propaganda

Are you... serious? Seriously? You're comparing someone putting out a video explaining her feminist views... to someone spreading racist propaganda? Are you serious in comparing the attempt to help people understand the various cultural baggage we all grew up with... to someone who spouts hate and wishes for nothing more than to exclude everyone that isn't a part fo their own favorite little group?

I would honestly like to know the answer to that question.

**Manchu**

I don't think the prevalence of the trope supports the conclusion of institutionalized misogyny but then again I don't think that is necessarily the point of the damsels vid. I think the point is that the damsels trope is pervasive in video games. She didn't prove or IMO even attempt to prove that its prevalence has a negative effect in wider society. If the damsels phenomenon does indeed make video games less welcoming or even more hostile to women then that will have to be proved or at least addressed in a further video. The argument at issue here is that female characters are objectified, that is, they are denied a great deal of agency, in a great number . And her argument on that point is reasonably persuasive.

As for why it needs to be made in the first place, the results speak for themselves. A lot of the critics in this case flat out deny that this obvious phenomenon even exists.

**Cheesecat**

Melissia wrote:
Cheesecat wrote:
Just because you didn't spend any money on it doesn't mean you can't complain
Completely missing the point here. Someone said that she should refund all of the money that she raised... because... uhm... I have no idea really, because they didn't like what she had to say? And the person who said it was not actually themselves someone who donated any money.

Making their complaints irrelevant. If they had actually donated money, their complaints might have validity because then their investment that helped contribute to her funds for the project. But they didn't. She raised money on kickstarter just like everyone else-- without any deception, without any coercion. People willingly gave this money to her to fund her project.

She is under no obligation to give any of it back, and your opinion is not relevant on the matter. Neither is mine really. It's entirely between her, those who gave her money for her project, and Kickstarter.
Cheesecat wrote:
like if she hypothetically used this project to spread racist propaganda
Are you... serious? Seriously? You're comparing someone putting out a video explaining her feminist views... to someone spreading racist propaganda? Are you serious in comparing the attempt to help people understand the various cultural baggage we all grew up with... to someone who spouts hate and wishes for nothing more than to exclude everyone that isn't a part fo their own favorite little group?

I would honestly like to know the answer to that question. My ignore list isn't long enough yet.

All my point is just because you didn't pay for something doesn't mean you can't complain about I'm not making a comparison between feminism and racism.

**Melissia**

Then I suggest you read the entire conversation to find out what exactly was being responded to when those statements were made.