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The post-heresy Thousand Sons suck. The Great Crusade-era ones were badass.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
You seriously think humans mutated into wolves on Fenris? That's a stretch even for 40k. You should see reason there (I mean do you know how genetically impossible this is, we can't even get children with chimps, much less wolves).

I seriously think your skepticism concerning it is frankly arbitrary, considering that 40k does not and has never adhered to physics or biology. Please do not insult me by suggesting I believe something like this is possible IRL, in 40k, you have humans that involved into rodent people. And the beastmen. And then there are mutants that become something truly bizarre and alien.

No, I don't find the concept of people with a genetic defect becoming wolves in 40k ridiculous.


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 DarthMarko wrote:
His biggest counter argument is SW novels suck (because they kick Magnus so hard every time)...So I suggest you end your discussion there, in a civil manner...

Well no, my biggest counter argument is that the Space Wolves outright state there were no wolves before they were there. "They" could mean Fenrisians or the Space Wolves, I assume the former because it fits into previously established canon best.

Please refrain from insulting me in the future Marko. Also, I'll note that you bashed Magnus and friends (When I didn't even mention him) first.

I'll actually go ahead and admit that my interpretation may not be 100% the truth, but please do me a favor and stop going into threads acting like I have this huge vendetta against the Space Wolves.

I enjoy and embrace all the homoeroticism of the Space Marines, not just Space Wolves riding on top of eachother. feth, I recently made fun of Magnus forcing his sons to give him a sponge bath in the misogyny thread, and no one is as bad about their homoeroticism as the Emperor's Children.

One thing is to mutate, but to change species? That's even out of the league of 40 in my opinion. I understand the rule of funny often being the rule of 40k, but not in this case, it's too ludicrous for me to accept men becoming wolves and on the way changing genders like some frogs.

@Void - Sorry mate, didn't wanna do that, apologies....But your theory about brothers riding brothers is so wrong in 100000 way's + SW novels are very early work and lot of us started our reading there ....or to sum it up:
- she wolf raised Russ with some puppies (Freki and Geri), so there are female wolves
- Magnus said his theory
- Wulfen are failed aspirants, stages of degradation are unknown
- only known fact is that the helix protects them from the warp (great 13 Co)

 Beaviz81 wrote:
One thing is to mutate, but to change species? That's even out of the league of 40 in my opinion. I understand the rule of funny often being the rule of 40k, but not in this case, it's too ludicrous for me to accept men becoming wolves and on the way changing genders like some frogs.

Why should they change genders? You are the only one who assumes that the wolves are able to reproduce on their own.

 DarthMarko wrote:
- she wolf raised Russ with some puppies (Freki and Geri), so there are female wolves

When was this stated for the last time? I just did a quick research about it and the only quotation I found for this is from a 13 year old WD, probably it is getting retconned right now.

What IF they are a xenos creature that looks very much like a wolf, but are natural to fenris, rather than being a genuine "terran" wolf ?

I'd just like to point out (since my previous statement about the literal meaning of the phrase has been passed over since the initial agreement) that the phrase is "There are no Wolves on Fenris." Not "There were no Wolves on Fenris."

There are monsters on Fenris that bear superficial resemblance to Terran wolves. The colonists named them Wolves. However, Fenrisian Wolves are two or three times the size of Terran wolves, have a significantly different skeletal structure and completely different faces.

"There are no wolves on Fenris." means just that - there is nothing on Fenris that is genetically compatible (IE: capable of breeding with) a Terran Lupus or Canis. It's more a statement about wilful ignorance and naming things properly than it is a comment on the Space Wolves. Really, they're quite incidental to the whole thing.

When Ahriman reminds his friend near the start of A Thousand Sons that "There are no wolves on Fenris", he's rebuking him for using a slang term instead of something's proper name.

 DarthMarko wrote:
What IF they are a xenos creature that looks very much like a wolf, but are natural to fenris, rather than being a genuine "terran" wolf ?

That would be most likely the case. Why should the colonists take wolves with them to a new planet? ...I mean, wolves, really?!

Much more likely, and Fenris is the ultimate wolf. He even devours Odin according to the comic Valhalla and Norse legends. As for the wolf rearing Russ, does Roman history sound familiar to you?

Yep - and "Odin" and the "eye of Magnus" is one example of mixing mythology...

 Beaviz81 wrote:

You seriously think humans mutated into wolves on Fenris? That's a stretch even for 40k. You should see reason there (I mean do you know how genetically impossible this is, we can't even get children with chimps, much less wolves).

No, what happened is wwaayy back when they first found and tried to settle on Fenris -- well prior to the dark age of technology -- that the planet was so dangerous that normal humans couldn't survive. So as humanity was at its apex technology wise they took genetic samples from the fauna that were on the planet and introduced them into the human genetic structure.

In affect they were trying to create superhumans to survive on the planet.

When you add in the Canis helix during the attempt to "upgrade" a man to an Astartes this can have the affect of changing them further than was intended and then they turn into wolfen.

This is something of a broad term that covers a wide range of "types" from the hairy wolfman type that is still more or less humanoid all the way to the full on rhino sized ones.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
You know, I've noticed something incredibly hypocritical about the Space Wolves. They revile the Thousand Sons for the flesh-change, and yet...what's so different between the flesh-change and the curse of the wulfen? Or for that matter, riding giant wolves that used to be Human?

Heres the difference....
Flesh Change = No control of their body, they kill everyone in their path.
Curse of the Wulfen= Still have somewhat of a control over their body, they don't kill allies, only their enemies.

Thats a pretty big difference. I have yet to read a excerpt where a wulfen went on a killing rampage and killed all of his allies. In thousand sons the book, the flesh changed sons were killing everything and everyone in their path. They had no control. And they didn't care who they killed.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Curse of the Wulfen= Still have somewhat of a control over their body, they don't kill allies, only their enemies.

Thats a pretty big difference. I have yet to read a excerpt where a wulfen went on a killing rampage and killed all of his allies. .

The audiobook Thunder on Fenris springs to mind. As do the older space wolf novels - look up Mikel Sternmark (iirc).
Also look up what happened to the wolf brothers in 'Battle for the Fang'

They are all cases of wolfen munching allies.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
The post-heresy Thousand Sons suck. The Great Crusade-era ones were badass.

Completely agreed. Hence why i based my chapter on their beliefs


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PredaKhaine wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Curse of the Wulfen= Still have somewhat of a control over their body, they don't kill allies, only their enemies.

Thats a pretty big difference. I have yet to read a excerpt where a wulfen went on a killing rampage and killed all of his allies. .

The audiobook Thunder on Fenris springs to mind. As do the older space wolf novels - look up Mikel Sternmark (iirc).
Also look up what happened to the wolf brothers in 'Battle for the Fang'

They are all cases of wolfen munching allies.

Ah those ones.
Yes. I read them. The Wolf brothers were unstable due to investigation by the thousand sons who corrupted the wolf brothers, and the wolf brothers were driven insane. So yeah.... That shoots down that theory.
Oh well. I think the main difference is what is more dangeorus? A wild animal with primal but insane strength? Or a wild animal with the ability to destroy you just by looking at you?

Chaos was the difference.

The thousand sons mutated into chaos beings.

The wolves canis gene helix is given as the reason that the 13th company has managed to stay fighting chaos in the EOT for however many years - it doesn't 'chaos up' very easily.

Thunder from fenris has the wulfen fighting against the demon in that and ignoring his ex comrades during the fight.

Wolves don't like chaos.

 reds8n wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

You seriously think humans mutated into wolves on Fenris? That's a stretch even for 40k. You should see reason there (I mean do you know how genetically impossible this is, we can't even get children with chimps, much less wolves).

No, what happened is wwaayy back when they first found and tried to settle on Fenris -- well prior to the dark age of technology -- that the planet was so dangerous that normal humans couldn't survive. So as humanity was at its apex technology wise they took genetic samples from the fauna that were on the planet and introduced them into the human genetic structure.

In affect they were trying to create superhumans to survive on the planet.

When you add in the Canis helix during the attempt to "upgrade" a man to an Astartes this can have the affect of changing them further than was intended and then they turn into wolfen.

This is something of a broad term that covers a wide range of "types" from the hairy wolfman type that is still more or less humanoid all the way to the full on rhino sized ones.

Do you have any proof of this? It sounds plausible enough but proof would be fine.

er.. If you read the Prospero duology carefully it tells you that.

There's a few nods/hints in "Deliverance Lost " too.

Plus he's clarified what he did ( and didn't.....) mean at various Bl events, including the recent BL Live! earlier this month. Him and Mr. Wraight gave a pretty interesting seminar about the sons of Fenris.

.. a clever man might also have a wee look at the Dr. Who novel he wrote


http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Silent_Stars_Go_By -- SPOILERS !

( book is well worth a read IMO.. well .. if you like Dr. Who anyway)

.. which an astute person might see a few similarities, ideas and/or themes used.

see also : http://chriswraight.wordpress.com/2013/03/13/the-wulfen/

i don't think i took any acid today but......after just finishing all the HH to date, ive always(from the begininng) be under the impression that the wolves were once in fact space wolves

I'm surprised and amazed that people actually think the Space Wolves turns into another species. That is just "Huh?" for me. I know the place is strange, but men turning into wolves strange? That has me halting. Mutation where you develop traits of animals maybe even can speak to them is okay. But you turning into a wolf sounds like something I saw in Charmed where Prue turned into a male dog once, and is out of this world as she is a witch and Space Wolves ain't too happy about psykers not from Fenris.

@Pwn - Which 100% contradicts the fact that there were terran SW , and Russ who was raised by the wolves (without SW present on Fenris)..So NO....

 DarthMarko wrote:
@Pwn - Which 100% contradicts the fact that there were terran SW , and Russ who was raised by the wolves (without SW present on Fenris)..So NO....

Ahhh yes Russ was raised by wolves,i guess when i read the little teasers about them possibly once being SW i just kinda had thatstuck in my head since it was so out there, i kinda liked the idea actually but reading over this thread, it makes much less sense

Russ SAYS he was raised by Wolves.

Russ may very well be lying.

(Failed aspirants turning into actual wolves, who are then ridden by space marines, is utterly moronic. But it seems to be the intent, so hey-ho...)

 reds8n wrote:
er.. If you read the Prospero duology carefully it tells you that.

There's a few nods/hints in "Deliverance Lost " too.

Plus he's clarified what he did ( and didn't.....) mean at various Bl events, including the recent BL Live! earlier this month. Him and Mr. Wraight gave a pretty interesting seminar about the sons of Fenris.

.. a clever man might also have a wee look at the Dr. Who novel he wrote


http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Silent_Stars_Go_By -- SPOILERS !

( book is well worth a read IMO.. well .. if you like Dr. Who anyway)

.. which an astute person might see a few similarities, ideas and/or themes used.

see also : http://chriswraight.wordpress.com/2013/03/13/the-wulfen/

I'll just point out that A Thousand Sons, which first uttered this phrase, was written by Graham McNeill.

I know he works together with Abnett concerning this very topic, but it's weird how often people think Abnett wrote both Prospero Burns and A Thousand Sons.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
I'm surprised and amazed that people actually think the Space Wolves turns into another species. That is just "Huh?" for me. I know the place is strange, but men turning into wolves strange? That has me halting. Mutation where you develop traits of animals maybe even can speak to them is okay. But you turning into a wolf sounds like something I saw in Charmed where Prue turned into a male dog once, and is out of this world as she is a witch and Space Wolves ain't too happy about psykers not from Fenris.

No, as had been said, they don't turn into wolves .. because in fact there are no wolves on Fenris.

You seem to think it's a transmogrification akin to Dracula turning into a bat or something, when if anything its closer to them"hulking" out, onlt without a chance to turn back.

.. well, until there's a good story to be told which requires someone to do so of course.

It's really not that different from the process that turns them from human into Astartes, which might as well be a different species in comparison.

The SW have never turned into wolves...
Wulfen are more of a part man part wolf kind of deal...

 Void__Dragon wrote:

I'll just point out that A Thousand Sons, which first uttered this phrase, was written by Graham McNeill.

I know he works together with Abnett concerning this very topic, but it's weird how often people think Abnett wrote both Prospero Burns and A Thousand Sons.

You think that's odd, I keep getting them the wrong way round and thinking Abnett wrote Thousand Sons and McNeil wrote Prospero Burns.

Probably because A Thousand Sons was so much better than Prospero Burns. ><

 reds8n wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
I'm surprised and amazed that people actually think the Space Wolves turns into another species. That is just "Huh?" for me. I know the place is strange, but men turning into wolves strange? That has me halting. Mutation where you develop traits of animals maybe even can speak to them is okay. But you turning into a wolf sounds like something I saw in Charmed where Prue turned into a male dog once, and is out of this world as she is a witch and Space Wolves ain't too happy about psykers not from Fenris.

No, as had been said, they don't turn into wolves .. because in fact there are no wolves on Fenris.

You seem to think it's a transmogrification akin to Dracula turning into a bat or something, when if anything its closer to them"hulking" out, onlt without a chance to turn back.

.. well, until there's a good story to be told which requires someone to do so of course.

It's really not that different from the process that turns them from human into Astartes, which might as well be a different species in comparison.

Actually I was kind of thinking like Baldur's Gate II. There I could for unknown reason render Jaheira from a competent fighter to a totally worthless one by turning her into a wolf or a black bear, she could be turned into a brown bear as well, which was useful once (when she had to fight naked against another druid). And Astartes turning into wolves is something I refuse to buy. A wolf is a wolf, a human is a human. It would be like me morphing for unknown reasons into a boar and be charged with electricity in the progress. It makes that much sense.

Jaheira could do it because she was a Druid. :p Turning into a wolf or bear was really useful in BG1, by the way, since your weapons kept breaking

Here is my take on it:
You can take the expression figuratively: Fenrisians are honest and noble bloodthirsty barbarians. There is no deception or betrayal in what they do. When Fenrisian tribes engage in genocide, it is called a murdermake, not nation-building.
Or you could interpret it to mean that the Canis Helix, which was developed by Dark Age colonists (in order to colonize an ice death world whose surface means death in seconds to ordinary humans) even causes mutations in the human populace, therefore the wolves on Fenris are people. It's PEOPLE!! In the books, Magnus, some high-ranking Space Wolves, and I think even Malcador alluded to the latter of these.
I think that the expression began in the fluff as the former. Despite the Administratum and Ecclisiarchy's incompetence and betrayal, Fenris has stayed true to it's mission. Fenris could care less what the High Lords of Terra are up to, it would keep on keeping on. This mystical combination of legend and tradition between the tribes and the skywarriors keeps Fenris loyal. Future Foundings of the Space Wolves have failed because they lacked pieces of this knotwork.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
That's how incredible your claim is Void. I'm basically thinking you are high on somethink to come up with this.

So I take it you have not read A Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns?

Also, the Space Wolf novels suck.

You seriously think humans mutated into wolves on Fenris? That's a stretch even for 40k. You should see reason there (I mean do you know how genetically impossible this is, we can't even get children with chimps, much less wolves).

Impossible with current science? Sure, but in principle? Not that far-fetched honestly. We're talking about a society that's capable of engineering organs -entirely new organs with no existing analogue in human physiology- from scratch, who can grow people in tubes, and can create synthetic compounds far in advance of modern drugs. Even today there are strong, well-founded hypotheses regarding ways to introduce foreign modified genetic material into living cells that exist as part of a functional organism like a human being; horizontal gene transfer using plasmids, introduction of modified chromosomal DNA using synthetic viral vectors and so forth. Considering the massive amount of cellular reengineering that goes on as part of the transformation of man into Space Marine, it wouldn't take much at all for one of those processes to go out of control and make the lupine DNA that's part of the Space Wolves' particular genetic cocktail far more dominant in the final result than was intended.

I actually rather like the implications such an interpretation of the "no wolves" statement; that the Wulfen are not a curse at all, but an intended result of the Emperor's genetic template for the Wolves, a sort of "immune response" against Chaos(as demonstrated by the 13th Co.), while the true flaw in their genome is the possibility they'll suffer a sort of genetic autoimmune disease where the Canis Helix attacks and replaces their human DNA to such a degree that they transform into barely-sentient wolf-like beasts with no hope of turning back.