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 Sinful Hero wrote:
Exactly how many answers are there for a 20/20 Indestrucible anyway? Path to Exile is the only one I ever see, and few decks even run that.


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Although I think it might be better to just ban the Thopter Foundry so other decks can make use of the Sword. I may just be partial to equipment though.

I think Meek also has some broken use in some wheenie decks. Foundry doesn't really break with much else

Graveyard recursion and excess draw/peek tends to be what gets banned most. That or actual combo.

I could see some odd combo with Reveilark, or something like that.

Oh, reading up on it, Meek was the broken combo part for Sword+Foundry+Time Sieve. Infinite turns.

It also can combo at instant speed.

Modern is Wizard's baby now. They want Legacy to die, and in order for Modern to keep new blood coming in they have to make sure that combo decks don't exist. Newbies and whatnot.

Mmm, it is arguable that with a giant monster in the format, the answers would start to get played.
Is stifle modern legal? That can also stop the DD. Otherwise there is trickbind if you're on the play.
I'm also sure there are more efficient bounce spells available than unsummon. Aether Spellbomb and various Man-o-war like creatures springs to mind immediately. Echoing truth doubles as a neat trick against token strategies.
Condemn also does the trick, although your opponent does gain a boatload of life in the process.
Various repeatable "tap target permanent" effects also work nicely.

I'll give the Sword though, although both the DD and Sword/foundry/sieve are three-card combos which without some way to

But yeah, Modern is far too micromanaged for my tastes so it basically stays "Standard plus" as far as available playstyles go instead of letting it be its own format.

...

I wish Vintage was supported a little more.

I think it's hard to support vintage if they're going to keep the reserve list. Which helps absolutely no one apart from collectors that are their cards as a serious investment.

How many answers are you going to start including in your deck to deal with a 2nd turn indestructible 20/20 before it takes away from you actually winning against other decks? And one-turn two spells are not an answer to Marit Lage. It merely delays the inevitable, and sets you back a card- it's no different than chump-blocking. Your opponent doesn't just crack open the Dark Depths and stop playing either. He's going to keep laying down threats, disrupting you, and possibly searching up a second copy. Four copies of Path to Exile in your sideboard isn't going to be enough, not all decks will run white, and tailoring your sideboard to focus on disrupting one deck is suicide.

I mean they can even just Fling him in response to your removal, if you even managed to draw it in the first place.


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 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I think it's hard to support vintage if they're going to keep the reserve list. Which helps absolutely no one apart from collectors that are their cards as a serious investment.

Yeah, the reserve list is going to strangle Vintage and Legacy too eventually. Few people care enough to buy full sets of $100 lands, which WotC make no money from anyway since they're all out of print. Wizards can rake it in with Modern just by reprinting the top Modern playables(or a whole premium priced set of them).

Well, some decks only need a little time to deploy their own threats (I mean, you' don't just sit there and do nothing while they get to execute their game plan, do you?), and dedicating sideboard space to deal with specific bad matchups happens all the time. That's the whole point of a sideboard!
If you pick the right cards they can serve against other decks as well (like, say, Blood Moon, or its Magus)

Also, bouncing or otherwise neutralising Marit sets you back a card, but it cost them 2 (and a turn and a land drop) to make the token, so you're ahead of the game both in cards and tempo there.

Yep, the reserve list is a pain. It should have been abolished a long time ago.
And I say this as someone who owns practially all Vintage playable cards (I only really lack a Mox Pearl, 3 Workshop, Imperial Seal and Grim Tutor to be able to play any viable deck in the format...)

I'm not sure why they keep the reserve list, I've heard some people say that it's supposedly legally binding because previous sets were sold under the promise that the cards would not be reprinted. So the threat is that some greedy buggers would sue wizards if they abolished it. I can't see how that honestly seems a likelihood as it was a promise to the magic community and any vote to the magic community today would likely see it abolished. But wizards seem to want to stick by it after all the squealing when junk on the reserve list like Phyrexian Negator was reprinted in a duel deck. Maybe they really are worried about upsetting collectors, who knows. The older formats will die though because they badly need a supply of the land cards which won't be reprinted.

The reserve list was done during a time of uncertainty about the secondary market for magic cards. I know Mark Rosewater (head designer for Magic) has said it was a mistake, but not one they can take back. The success of Vintage Masters on MTGO shows that there is demand for the cards, but they've obligated themselves to not print them in paper, so they'll have to settle for digital versions.

I think the way around this is to make almost-functional reprints in things like commander and duel decks. Instead of Bayou that is an Swamp Forest, they can make a Mangrove Lagoon that is a Swamp Forest that causes you to reveal a card when it enters the battlefield (or whatever negligible effect that would make it not count as being identical to Bayou). I believe the pain and shock lands are a direct result of the reserve list specify functional reprints as well.

I'm not very favourably inclined towards collectors, speculators and dealers though. I think game play and format accessibility should trump card prices spiraling higher and higher and think that modern, legacy and vintage staple reprints would actually help everyone because more players puts a price floor into the secondary market. Just look at what Modern Masters did for goyf. It was reprinted, but the increased modern playerbase has had the net effect of them going up in price due to demand.

The local vintage and legacy events all allow proxies at +3$ per card per event onto the entrance fee anyway. And they only allow really good looking proxies. The end result is that an event with only 8 people can have a prize pool worth a couple hundred dollars in store credit.

Only problem with that idea is that people can use Bayou AND Mangrove Lagoon. Unless they ban Bayou and it's ilk, it would only make it worse.

Sinful Hero wrote:Only problem with that idea is that people can use Bayou AND Mangrove Lagoon. Unless they ban Bayou and it's ilk, it would only make it worse.

When this card enters the battlefield under your control, sacrifice all lands named Bayou under your control
When a card named Bayou enters the battlefield under your control, sacrifice all cards named Mangrove Lagoon under your control.

Or

If a Mangrove Lagoon and Bayou that you both own and control are on the battlefield at the same time, you lose the game.

Or (probably the easiest one)

The total number of Mangrove Lagoons and Bayous in your deck can never exceed 4.



Sort of like the opposite of that.

It's extra text to put on permanents, but it would work. Though they're probably a potential work around somehow depending on the wording.


.

Yeah that could work. Wouldn't even have to have any other "drawbacks" than that to make it different either.


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Or "Your deck cannot contain any cards named Bayou".

People who collect reserve list cards would be pissed if the only difference between the two was the new ones said you couldn't have the old one in your deck.

*I* would love it and I'm sure people getting into the older card formats would love it as well even if the speculators and traders would take issue.

I need some of those cards, but I refuse to spend over $25 on a cardboard card.

I believe Aaron Forsythe is a vocal opponent of the Reserve List as well, but apparently it's corporate who keeps it going, not R&D.

Most people collecting reserve list cards (at least the expensive ones on the reserve list) collect them because of a love for the format they're legal in.
They would be happy to take a hit to their cardboard value if the format became more accessible. I know I wouldn't mind.
(But then, even if my P9 went down 2,000 euros overnight, I would still break even if I sold them...)

I have a strict $5 limit for a single card and $50 for a single deck budget that I stick to.

I used to just do common/uncommon block cubes to preserve my favorite limited formats and then commander decks where outside the commander, no card is more than a dollar, but since I got into budget standard, I've been willing to spend a bit more.

The current thing that's tempting me is a mono-green infect deck for modern. I think it comes to $17 for the higher priced version and as low as $5 for the ultra budget version. 4 tix for the full version on MTGO via bots.

I think the time is drawing near of my mill deck's return to modern. The allied colored fetches made me reconsider Hedron Crab and in my playtesting I'm impressed with how well they play. Still need two Polluted Deltas or Bloodstained Mires or Flooded Strands to play in FNM though.

Do enough of the modern decks use those fetches to make Archive Trap worthwhile?

Man i remember that card.

i could see it being useful but wasnt there a bunch of shuffle graveyards back into library cards in modern?

 Desubot wrote:
Man i remember that card.

i could see it being useful but wasnt there a bunch of shuffle graveyards back into library cards in modern?

Usually in the sideboard.

As for Archive Trap, if you're doing a dedicated mill deck it's usually a pretty good card. You could pair it with Ghost Quarter for those match ups where they don't use a lot of fetches. Besides burn, most decks will have a nonbasic or two, and burn is just a bad match up in general for mill.
If they don't search, you just sinkholed them.

I'm going to say that yes enough people use fetches that Archive Trap is a viable thing. I use 3 and 3 Ghost Quarters, but I feel that my opponent becomes cautious of them so I side them out.

The trap also screws over Pod to a hilarious degree, though nowadays I feel that most things gak all over Pod.

This thread is quite interesting to read as someone who stopped playing about the time of Weatherlight in the mid 90s.

I'd guess I'd be playing Legacy if I wanted to use my old cards?
Though they are not super strong, just old.

You might have some money in your old cards. There are commons and uncommons that are worth more than most rares. And while the cards that are powerful might seem like the things that should be valuable, it's actually the efficient cards that are in the most demand. I bet you could find an economical deck in some format and maybe pay for it in trade for some old cards.

If you look them up on magiccards.info, when you go into the page for each card, you should see a range of prices. The buy-list price at a dealer will be less than that, but then you'll get extra for taking store credit rather than cash. I've only heard good things about dealing with Card Kingdom and they offer 30% extra for store credit.

Who knows though? Maybe the cards you have might form the core of an existing playable deck.

Avoid StrikeZoneOnline though- they lost a pretty big order of mine before.

Alright, so my friend has a creature with Indestructible (Athreos, God of Passage) and I responded by playing Convolute (He used all his mana on casting the creature). He says since his creature has Indestructible his card instead goes back to his hand instead of to his graveyard even though I countered it.

Countering a spell has nothing to do with indestructible. Indestructible just prevents destroy effects and destruction from damage.

You can still:
Counter it before it enters the battlefield
Exile it.
Reduce it's toughness to 0 so it is put into the graveyard (cast a -x/-x spell on it that puts it below 0)
Cause the opponent to sacrifice it.

If you look up indestructible in the comprehensive rules ( http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/resources/rules/MagicCompRules_20140601.pdf ) you'll find:

702.12. Indestructible
702.12a Indestructible is a static ability.
702.12b A permanent with indestructible can’t be destroyed. Such permanents aren’t destroyed by
lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).
702.12c Multiple instances of indestructible on the same permanent are redundant.

Indestructible
A keyword ability that precludes a permanent from being destroyed. See rule 702.12.

Doesn't say anything about can't be countered (or exiled, or sacrificed, etc.,).

701.5a To counter a spell or ability means to cancel it, removing it from the stack. It doesn’t resolve
and none of its effects occur. A countered spell is put into its owner’s graveyard.

Also:

111. Spells
111.1. A spell is a card on the stack. As the first step of being cast (see rule 601, “Casting Spells”), the card becomes a spell and is moved to the top of the stack from the zone it was in, which is usually its owner’s hand. (See rule 405, “Stack.”) A spell remains on the stack as a spell until it resolves (see rule 608, “Resolving Spells and Abilities”), is countered (see rule 701.5), or otherwise leaves the stack. For more information, see section 6, “Spells, Abilities, and Effects.”

Indestructible is something a permanent has. It's not a permanent when its on the stack, it's a spell (triggered and activated abilities also go on the stack).

In order for it not be countered, it would need something like this:



Hopefully just showing your friend the hydra will be convincing enough that there's a separate ability for being immune to counter magic.

Remember though, you can't counter spells once they are permanents on the battlefield. Only while they are on the stack.

601.2a The player announces that he or she is casting the spell. That card (or that copy of a card)
moves from where it is to the stack. It becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has all the
characteristics of the card (or the copy of a card) associated with it, and that player becomes its
controller. The spell remains on the stack until it’s countered, it resolves, or an effect moves it
elsewhere.

 TimmyTheNerd wrote:
Alright, so my friend has a creature with Indestructible (Athreos, God of Passage) and I responded by playing Convolute (He used all his mana on casting the creature). He says since his creature has Indestructible his card instead goes back to his hand instead of to his graveyard even though I countered it.

Things only go back to your hand under specific circumstances that will always be stated on the relevant cards. He's just making rules up. Creatures only have abilities like indestructible when they have resolved and are on the battlefield. When you counter a spell, the creature hasn't resolved so isn't a 'creature', it's just a spell being cast. In the opposite way you can't hit a creature with a lightning strike in response to it being cast to kill it before it enters the battlefield because there's no target for the Lightning strike. You have to wait for the creature to resolve, any 'enter the battlefield' effects to occur - then you are able to lightning strike it.

Yeah as far as I know if a spell is countered it only returns to its owner's hand if the counterspell used is this:

I knew there was something I needed to see when I woke up.



Anyone else fall in love with this at first sight?

I suppose it would be neat to delve away an Akroma and swing in for four on turn two or three.