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I really wonder about this point. Like I said, if the idea of the Librarius was invented by Magnus alone or in large part, then the Emperor may have meant exactly what he said: that the crux issue was indeed the Librarius and not, as per the old fluff, the distinction between sanctioned psykers and sorcerers.
C'mon Nikaea wasn't about librarians, it was a trial of "Magnus the red" ...also I'm not distincting RP from librarians, only TS - who didn't know their limits (insert Tzeench mojo)....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/02 20:03:44
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Also in one of Garro's audiobooks - librarians openly blame Magnus and the TS for their ban....
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
DarthMarko wrote: C'mon Nikaea wasn't about librarians, it was a trial of "Magnus the red"
The Emperor explicitly said otherwise. That it would be a trial of Magnus is what Magnus himself and the other Primarchs believed. But the Emperor refused to distinguish between sanctioned psykers and sorcerers -- again, explicitly for the sake of unity. He shifted the issue entirely, making it about the structure of the SM Legions. According to the Edict, the Legions were not to maintain Librarius departments any longer and those who had been a part of them were to never employ psychic powers again. If that is a judgment of Magnus, it is only to the extent that Magnus came up with the Librarius structure.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/02 20:08:07
DarthMarko wrote: C'mon Nikaea wasn't about librarians, it was a trial of "Magnus the red"
The Emperor explicitly said otherwise. That it would be a trial of Magnus is what Magnus himself and the other Primarchs believed. But the Emperor refused to distinguish between sanctioned psykers and sorcerers -- again, explicitly for the sake of unity. He shifted the issue entirely, making it about the structure of the SM Legions. According to the Edict, the Legions were not to maintain Librarius departments any longer and those who had been a part of them were to never employ psychic powers again. If that is a judgment of Magnus, it is only to the extent that Magnus came up with the Librarius structure.
Well the book tells me otherwise....It's from the TS perspective, but Mcneill mentions it in "tAE" too...
History would recall this assembly as the Council of Nikaea.
Others would know it as the trial of Magnus the Red.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/02 20:17:35
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Alpharius wrote: I can't help but think the only 'explanation' we're going to get in the end is "Damn but the Emperor made a stupid mistake there, didn't he?"
I think we often underestimate how important this Council was.
First, it was either the last public act of the Emperor before "retiring" to Terra or it was the only thing that pulled the Emperor away from his "retirement" work. Either way, the Emperor clearly thought this was a huge deal.
Second, it was the first major fracture between the Primarchs. Luckily, despite his many gifts, Magnus was not very likable -- otherwise this could have turned into the Magnus Heresy instead of the HH.
Interpreting the Emperor's own words, he saw the Council as a crisis of unity. Mortarion might have had concerns about psychic powers generally but Russ was certainly suspicious (and rightly so!) of Magnus personally.
What is interesting is what was not said: The Emperor did not simply explain that the Ruinous Powers tempt and bend and break incautious psykers. In the old fluff, you have some kind of proto-Inquisition testifying about the horrors of Chaos. That concept is totally foreign to the Primarchs in the HH series (except to Magnus, to the extent already discussed -- and possibly also Mortarion). But Russ had a strong suspicion. People talk about Magnus's foresight but it was Russ who was right all along -- not least of all because both men acted according to a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Narratively speaking, the kind of knowledge of Chaos presumed by the old fluff just doesn't make sense. If such knowledge was so commonplace as to be openly discussed, one would certainly wonder how the HH happened in the first place other than with some one-dimensional mustache twirling.
Once you take that knowledge off the table, Nikaea becomes much more interesting: the judge and the defendant know about Chaos (the former to a far more specific degree than the latter) -- but ironically the prosecution is in the dark. They don't fully understand the very charge they are leveling at Magnus and Magnus pretends that he doesn't either when in fact he knows (or rather should know) even better than them the danger his actions pose.
But that's Magnus for you: utterly, devastatingly arrogant.
Should the Emperor have imprisoned Magnus at that point then? I mean, he presumably knew the real score even better than Magnus. I think he couldn't do it at that point, specifically because the Golden Throne was not near completion at that point (remember, that's the reason the Emperor went into retirement). What cell could hold Magnus, other than the Golden Throne? And if the Emperor tried to do so before the Throne was ready, keeping Magnus prisoner would likely be so distracting as to indefinitely delay the Throne's completion.
The Emperor needed unity among his sons if only for just a little longer.
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DarthMarko wrote: Others would know it as the trial of Magnus the Red.
And who are those others? The TS? The SW? Of course they would -- they considered it to be such before it began. The Emperor himself made it otherwise. We need not choose between the words of historians or "others" in this matter. As readers, the facts unfolded before us. We "saw and heard" exactly what the Emperor of Mankind said at that Council -- namely that no one would be censured, that his judgment was organizational, that those who defined this judgment would be his enemy. If there is any trial, it is the trial of obeying the Edict.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/04/02 20:42:03
Also they attained their rank (which is essential in the SW), but I didn't see them throw lighning balls on Prospero...
Othere Wyrdmake at the very least was using his powers to track down Ahriman, and did not hesitate to do psychic battle with them. Also, Othere continues to deny that what he does draws from the Warp, he doesn't think of himself as a psyker.
Oh, and Helwinter was using his psychic powers to try and banish the daemon on Propsero, the Horus thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote: I really wonder about this point. Like I said, if the idea of the Librarius was invented by Magnus alone or in large part, then the Emperor may have meant exactly what he said: that the crux issue was indeed the Librarius and not, as per the old fluff, the distinction between sanctioned psykers and sorcerers.
The Librarius department was developed by Magnus, Sanguinius, and the Khan.
What excludes the Rune Priests from the problem, as opposed to the Librarians?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarthMarko wrote: C'mon Nikaea wasn't about librarians, it was a trial of "Magnus the red" ...also I'm not distincting RP from librarians, only TS - who didn't know their limits (insert Tzeench mojo)....
Okay. That's nice I guess.
I am not comparing the RP to the Thousand Sons, only the Librarians of other Legions, making your response to me peculiar in that it attacks a point I never made.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/02 20:38:37
I personally suspect part of the reason the Space Wolves were allowed to keep psykers about (e.g. working alongside the Custodes; although still maybe not with the Emperor's sanction) is because of their role as a tool/weapon, and psykers being a very handy tool/weapon themselves.
Also a couple of other relevant points people haven't mentioned:
- With Nikaea and the Webway, the Emperor was also reducing humanities exposure to the warp.
- Alpharius/Omegon also knew of Chaos, and that the Emperor was wholeheartedly against it.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
Just Dave wrote: I personally suspect part of the reason the Space Wolves were allowed to keep psykers about (e.g. working alongside the Custodes; although still maybe not with the Emperor's sanction) is because of their role as a tool/weapon, and psykers being a very handy tool/weapon themselves.
The words of the Edict do not forbid what the SW did. The SW require no special dispensation because nothing they are doing is covered in the first place.
Just Dave wrote: I personally suspect part of the reason the Space Wolves were allowed to keep psykers about (e.g. working alongside the Custodes; although still maybe not with the Emperor's sanction) is because of their role as a tool/weapon, and psykers being a very handy tool/weapon themselves.
The words of the Edict do not forbid what the SW did. The SW require no special dispensation because nothing they are doing is covered in the first place.
True as well (and not being trained by Magnus as you said). I liked your point about the Chapter/Legion distinction before: I'd never looked at it that way/RAW!
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
Yeah, I don't know if that's what Mr. McNeill intended -- whether he had this deep kind of debate that we constantly have on this topic (much less whether he had a lawyerly point of view on the issue) but it seems to me that the Emperor would have chosen his words very, very carefully -- and meant every one of them in an exact sense.
Also they attained their rank (which is essential in the SW), but I didn't see them throw lighning balls on Prospero...
Othere Wyrdmake at the very least was using his powers to track down Ahriman, and did not hesitate to do psychic battle with them. Also, Othere continues to deny that what he does draws from the Warp, he doesn't think of himself as a psyker.
No he didn't (on both accounts),
Spoiler:
“I can see the aether inside you, Rune Priest,” he hissed with the last of his strength. “You are just like me, and one day those you serve will turn on you too.”
“I almost pity your delusion,” said Wyrdmake, shaking his head, “almost.”
Wyrdmake stood to his full height and waved more of the warriors with flame-weapons forward. Ankhu Anen heard the whoosh of streaming jets of fire destroying a hundred lifetimes worth of knowledge, and tears gathered in the corners of his eyes.
“You will tell me one thing before you die,” said Wyrdmake. “You will tell me where I can find the star-cunning one called Ahzek Ahriman.”
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Manchu wrote: First, it was either the last public act of the Emperor before "retiring" to Terra or it was the only thing that pulled the Emperor away from his "retirement" work. Either way, the Emperor clearly thought this was a huge deal.
Well it sort of was, and the Decree had serious consequences throughout the Heresy. Notably, the Heresy was much harder to combat because of it.
Second, it was the first major fracture between the Primarchs. Luckily, despite his many gifts, Magnus was not very likable -- otherwise this could have turned into the Magnus Heresy instead of the HH.
I would have sort of agreed, but recent information is making Magnus seem oddly popular among some of his brothers. Lorgar and Perturabo consider him their favorite brother, Sanguinius seems to like and respect him, and presumably the Khan did as well.
Interpreting the Emperor's own words, he saw the Council as a crisis of unity. Mortarion might have had concerns about psychic powers generally but Russ was certainly suspicious (and rightly so!) of Magnus personally.
‘Magnus is terribly
misguided. His dabblings have brought him perilously close
to damnation, and my father was right to restrain him. But he
would never have toppled over the brink without this violent
provocation.'
I personally believe this, I don't think Magnus would have fallen had it not been for the razing of Prospero (Which I don't really blame the Wolves for, it was directly engineered by a Chaos God, after all).
What is interesting is what was not said: The Emperor did not simply explain that the Ruinous Powers tempt and bend and break incautious psykers. In the old fluff, you have some kind of proto-Inquisition testifying about the horrors of Chaos. That concept is totally foreign to the Primarchs in the HH series (except to Magnus, to the extent already discussed -- and possibly also Mortarion). But Russ had a strong suspicion. People talk about Magnus's foresight but it was Russ who was right all along -- not least of all because both men acted according to a self-fulfilling prophecy.
What was Russ right about?
Narratively speaking, the kind of knowledge of Chaos presumed by the old fluff just doesn't make sense. If such knowledge was so commonplace as to be openly discussed, one would certainly wonder how the HH happened in the first place other than with some one-dimensional mustache twirling.
I agree, making Chaos something either totally unknown in most cases, or something known but not wholly understood in Magnus's case, made the heresy more believable.
Once you take that knowledge off the table, Nikaea becomes much more interesting: the judge and the defendant know about Chaos (the former to a far more specific degree than the latter) -- but ironically the prosecution is in the dark. They don't fully understand the very charge they are leveling at Magnus and Magnus pretends that he doesn't either when in fact he knows even better than them the danger his actions pose.
But that's Magnus for you: utterly, devastatingly arrogant.
Should the Emperor have imprisoned Magnus at that point then? I mean, he presumably knew the real score even better than Magnus. I think he couldn't do it at that point, specifically because the Golden Throne was not near completion at that point (remember, that's the reason the Emperor went into retirement). What cell could hold Magnus, other than the Golden Throne? And if the Emperor tried to do so before the Throne was ready, keeping Magnus prisoner would likely be so distracting as to indefinitely delay the Throne's completion.
The Emperor needed unity among his sons if only for just a little longer.
He could have taken him to Terra, or at least told him of the Webway gate, that alone would have stopped Magnus from blowing a hole in Terra. Killing him is of course out of the question, he needs him for the Golden Throne.
“I can see the aether inside you, Rune Priest,” he hissed with the last of his strength. “You are just like me, and one day those you serve will turn on you too.”
“I almost pity your delusion,” said Wyrdmake, shaking his head, “almost.”
Wyrdmake stood to his full height and waved more of the warriors with flame-weapons forward. Ankhu Anen heard the whoosh of streaming jets of fire destroying a hundred lifetimes worth of knowledge, and tears gathered in the corners of his eyes.
“You will tell me one thing before you die,” said Wyrdmake. “You will tell me where I can find the star-cunning one called Ahzek Ahriman.”
Lulz.
"No sooner had he quelled his powers than he sensed a ghostly presence probing the aether around him, a questing tendril that spoke of another
mind seeking his. Ahriman felt the primitive cunning of a hunter, the patience and animal circling that spoke of long years spent on the frozen tundra
with nothing to warm the flesh but fur torn from the still warm corpse of native prey-beasts.
It took no great skill to recognise the presence, for he had swum the Great Ocean with this seeker. Ohthere Wyrdmake was hunting him, and
Ahriman allowed his aetheric presence to bleed into the air, psychic spoor to draw the Rune Priest to him."
" “Warlock,” spat Wyrdmake.
“Is that all you have for me, old friend?” asked Ahriman, folding his arms. “Insults?”
“I have sought you this day,” said Wyrdmake.
“I know, I felt your clumsy pursuit. A Neophyte of Prospero could have sensed you. How did you acquire my psychic trace?”
“Your brother in the library gave you up,” said Wyrdmake triumphantly.
Ahriman laughed.
“Is that what you think happened?” he asked. “If Ankhu Anen did so, it was because he wanted you to find me. He knew I would kill you if you did.”
“I think not,” said Wyrdmake, a golden staff appearing in his hands.
Ahriman shook his head and the staff exploded into shards of fading light.
“In this place, in this realm, do you really think we will fight like that?” "
Notice how he tried to conjure his staff. And he did proceed to have a psychic battle with him.
And...
" “I am nothing like you,” he snarled. “My power comes from the natural cycle of birth and death of Fenris. I am a Son of the Storm. I am nothing like
you.”
“And yet you are not on Fenris,” said Ahriman. “We call it by different names, but the power you use to call the storm and split the earth is the
same power I use to scry the future and shape the destiny of my Legion.”
“Is this all you have for me?” snapped Wyrdmake. “Lies? I can believe nothing you say.” "
So yeah, he believes his power fundamentally is from a different source.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/02 20:57:06
Lorgar didn't like Magnus and Magnus didn't like Lorgar (Mcneill) - faith vs science...In "aTS" Magnus mocks Lorgar calling him Urizon with a jesting tone.....
Lorgar likes Magnus after heresy broke (ADB)
On Perturabo I agree.....
Also Russ was 10000 % right, maybe not about RP, but concerning Magnus and his taint, and fall of Prospero and Magnus saved by the Tzeench vindicate him...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/02 21:04:15
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
DarthMarko wrote: Lorgar didn't like Magnus and Magnus didn't like Lorgar (Mcneill) - faith vs science...In "aTS" Magnus mocks Lorgar calling him Urizon with a jesting tone.....
Lorgar likes Magnus after heresy broke (ADB)
You got those completely backwards.
Lorgar and Magnus were very close friends, being the two scholarly Primarchs who both dealt in the metaphysical. Magnus teased Lorgar, certainly, but in their relationship he was the "wiser older brother" who offered his "lost, wayward little brother" counsel and advice.
After the Heresy, Lorgar is angry/contemptuous with Magnus for having discouraged him from pursuing "the Primordial truth", as well as wilfully blinding himself to its reality. Magnus is too filled with doubt and regret to have an opinion one way or the other, although he is shocked by the depth of Lorgar's bitterness.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/02 21:05:51
Void__Dragon wrote: recent information is making Magnus seem oddly popular among some of his brothers. Lorgar and Perturabo consider him their favorite brother, Sanguinius seems to like and respect him, and presumably the Khan did as well.
Lorgar was ... shall we say, inconstant. Perturabo also had major self-esteem issues. I can't speak to the details because I apparently have not read the sources. Sanguinius seemed to like and respect all of his brothers and to have been alone in the respect. The Khan is at this point inscrutable. And, ask yourself, even if Lorgar and Perturabo did love Magnus, would they have followed him like they did Horus?
Void__Dragon wrote: I don't think Magnus would have fallen had it not been for the razing of Prospero
I disagree. With Magnus, it was only a matter of time. If not the burning of Prospero, then the flesh change. He would have found a rationalization, an excuse, to do what he desired one way or another. The only thing that could save Magnus from his eventual fate was the Golden Throne.
That Magnus was already, in the sense of folded time, a slave to Chaos. He knew this like a dog knows the way home; not based on rational argument and fact but on what we might call "scent." This "scent" is the ironic corralary to Magnus's "sight." I posted in-depth on Magnus's sight/blindness here:
daveNYC wrote: I'm also not sure how you're managing to reconcile Magnus having free will with the statement that he was always going to fall to Chaos. If free will doesn't allow you to chose to avoid damnation then it's not nearly all it's cracked up to be.
Fair warning, this is going to get really complicated.
Magnus was free to avoid his fate just as much as he wasn't free to do so. Free will is a harder thing to exercise than you seem to think. There was no single point where Magnus was presented with: "Do you want to fall to Chaos? YES/NO." Rather, his fall unfolded over time. Perhaps a better way to put it, to avoid the confusion of linear-biased language, is that his corruption emerged out of time.
The word "fall" implies an endpoint on a timeline. Linear time is not a helpful way to analyze Magnus, except inasmuch as he was blinded to the truth by an overly linear conception of time. But if we were to plot a timeline of his "fall", we can locate three main points: (1) his pact with "something in the Warp" to halt the flesh change of the Thousand Sons, (2) his decision to violate the Edict of Nikaea, (3) him calling out to that same "something in the Warp" for deliverance as he lost to Russ. Now, and this is the hard part, imagine the line of the timeline folded back on itself so that each of the three points overlap, becoming the same point. I think that's a little closer to the Tzeentchian POV and the best way to take into account Magnus's "free will."
What I'm trying to accomplish by folding the timeline like this is to show that exercising free will is not merely "historical" in the linear sense. Our decisions are conditioned not only by our will and motivation but also by their consequences -- and not only are the consequences obscure but also the motivations. This is a key aspect to Magnus's personality symbolized by him being a "cyclops." Magnus has one eye, the eye that looks to the future. Although his eyesight is far superior to that of almost all humanity, it is still lacking and especially because he himself lacks the eye that looks to the past. Magnus's concern is always with what will be rather than what has gone before: what will befall my Legion in the wake of the flesh change, what will befall the Imperium in the wake of Horus's treachery, what will befall humanity in the wake of the Council of Nikaea?
For Tzeentch, a being of the Warp, the future and past and present are coterminous, like our folded timeline. For Tzeentch, the "moment" of its pact with Magnus is also the "moment" of its salvation of the Thousand Sons from the Space Wolves -- except, of course, that I'm using the word "moment" in a purely metaphorical way, as our conception of linear time doesn't literally apply to the Warp. Magnus is blind to the coterminous aspect of these "historical" points because he is obsessed with his ability to shape the future according to his will through the power of his mind. The best way that I can put it is, Magnus does not perceive that he is falling; he only perceives that he has not fallen yet. Tzeentch, and the Emperor to some extent, can see him as he is becoming. I suppose you can liken it to the relationship between an acorn and a tree. When Tzeentch looks at an acorn in realspace, it sees the nut and the sapling and the tree and the mulch all at once. It's not that Tzeentch "knows the future" -- which is the secret power that Magnus wants so badly. Rather, Tzeentch perceives all possibility and transformation.
Despite all his study, one-eyed Magnus failed to cultivate this ability and so did not accurately understand his peril. He did not understand how the pact he made to save his Legion was the acorn to the the tree of his corruption -- or who knows it might have gone further back than that. All Magnus's knowledge was in fact ignorance. Could he have averted his corruption? Yes -- but it's so hard that it doesn't look "free" in the superficial sense. This is what I meant earlier by saying, Magnus could have avoided damnation by ceasing to be Magnus. Magnus was doomed to fall; but had he completely reformed his personality, completely changed his point of view, he might have noticed the danger. That still means that "Magnus was doomed to fall." The man who averted his fall would no longer be Magnus.
And here we have the ultimate irony, the Tzeentchian pièce de résistance. The thing that could have saved Magnus, in a word, was change.
Void__Dragon wrote: He could have taken him to Terra, or at least told him of the Webway gate, that alone would have stopped Magnus from blowing a hole in Terra. Killing him is of course out of the question, he needs him for the Golden Throne.
I've thought through those possibilities -- but of course such thinking relies on speculation. Would Magnus have gone willingly to the Golden Throne? It is difficult to say, considering we don't know what that would cost him. But I think it is unlikely that Magnus could not have guessed his fate, his eventual enthronement, if he had any of those crucial pieces of information. He may be arrogant but he is also a genius beyond mortal comprehension. Following that logic through, I would conclude that Magnus would not likely go willingly to the Throne. And therefore it was the purpose of the SW all along to bring him, him specifically -- not, as if often said, any traitorous Primarch. That would also explain why Russ had smelled Magnus out, so to speak. It is what Russ was designed to do, just as Magnus was designed to sit the Golden Throne.
DarthMarko wrote: Lorgar didn't like Magnus and Magnus didn't like Lorgar (Mcneill) - faith vs science...In "aTS" Magnus mocks Lorgar calling him Urizon with a jesting tone.....
Lorgar likes Magnus after heresy broke (ADB)
On Perturabo I agree.....
“This is not the rime for such debate. Two of my dearest brothers are at each other’s throats, and it grieves
me to know how this shall disappoint our father.'
- Lorgar
In The First Heretic, Lorgar considered Magnus his closest brother before the Heresy broke out, lol.
When did Magnus mock Lorgar?
“And the Urizen?” asked Magnus, using the Word Bearers devotional name for their primarch. “Is he also ready to strike?”
“Do not call him that,” said Leman Russ. “His name is Lorgar.”
“Why do you dislike that name so much?”
“I don’t know,” said Russ. “Do I need a reason?”
“No, I was simply curious.”
“Not everything needs an explanation, Magnus,” said Russ. “Some things just are. Now gather your warriors, it is time to finish this.”
Here? He doesn't seem to be mocking Lorgar to me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/02 21:12:08
DarthMarko wrote: Lorgar didn't like Magnus and Magnus didn't like Lorgar (Mcneill) - faith vs science...In "aTS" Magnus mocks Lorgar calling him Urizon with a jesting tone.....
Lorgar likes Magnus after heresy broke (ADB)
You got those completely backwards.
Lorgar and Magnus were very close friends, being the two scholarly Primarchs who both dealt in the metaphysical. Magnus teased Lorgar, certainly, but in their relationship he was the "wiser older brother" who offered his "lost, wayward little brother" counsel and advice.
After the Heresy, Lorgar is angry/contemptuous with Magnus for having discouraged him from pursuing "the Primordial truth", as well as wilfully blinding himself to its reality. Magnus is too filled with doubt and regret to have an opinion one way or the other, although he is shocked by the depth of Lorgar's bitterness.
Hm, I still don't see it...Magnus is a scholar who still doesn't belive in CG (kudos for that), but chaos brainwashed Lorgar is like on the opposite side...
But I'm still enjoying their bickering, but they are not close friends like with Perturabo....
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
It actually makes some sense, considering Leman Russ, along with Magnus, spoke out against Lorgar's censure, if you recall. One of the few who did.
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DarthMarko wrote: Hm, I still don't see it...Magnus is a scholar who still doesn't belive in CG (kudos for that), but chaos brainwashed Lorgar is like on the opposite side...
But I'm still enjoying their bickering, but they are not close friends like with Perturabo....
Don't see what?
That Lorgar considered Magnus his closest brother is an absolute fact, this can't be debated since it was constantly shown and stated throughout The First Heretic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/02 21:13:46
I suspect Lorgar's comment of "dearest brothers" was just peace-keeping, I could see no reason he'd be particularly close to Russ. But The First Heretic did a good job of showing Magnus and Lorgar's closeness.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
Void__Dragon wrote: In The First Heretic, Lorgar considered Magnus his closest brother before the Heresy broke out, lol.
Who was the other dearest he spoke of? Not Russ, surely?
LOL...Lorgar can really play a friend card often...one time he is your BFFL , next he is jumping at you....Like with Guiliman.....
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Void__Dragon wrote: It actually makes some sense, considering Leman Russ, along with Magnus, spoke out against Lorgar's censure, if you recall. One of the few who did.
Still, it is difficult to imagine the Wolf King stomaching Lorgar. On what grounds did Russ object to his censuring? Man, I feel like I didn't read The First Heretic at all -- I really need to re-read that.
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Just Dave wrote: I suspect Lorgar's comment of "dearest brothers" was just peace-keeping
Yes, this makes perfect sense to me -- it's exactly the kind of overblown language Lorgar seems fond of using.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/02 21:19:03
Just Dave wrote: I suspect Lorgar's comment of "dearest brothers" was just peace-keeping, I could see no reason he'd be particularly close to Russ. But The First Heretic did a good job of showing Magnus and Lorgar's closeness.
Actually Magnus was mocking Lorgar in front of Russ and Russ stops him....(Shrike)
Like I said this is Mcneil portrayal, the other is ADB-s....
Magnus and Lorgar friendship stops the moment Magnus tells a bad joke about Gods...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/02 21:21:27
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Void__Dragon wrote: It actually makes some sense, considering Leman Russ, along with Magnus, spoke out against Lorgar's censure, if you recall. One of the few who did.
Still, it is difficult to imagine the Wolf King stomaching Lorgar. On what grounds did Russ object to his censuring? Man, I feel like I didn't read The First Heretic at all -- I really need to re-read that.
IIRC it was basically cause he didn't want to lose a brother (again), rather than any overt affection.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
Manchu wrote: Lorgar was ... shall we say, inconstant. Perturabo also had major self-esteem issues. I can't speak to the details because I apparently have not read the sources. Sanguinius seemed to like and respect all of his brothers and to have been alone in the respect. The Khan is at this point inscrutable. And, ask yourself, even if Lorgar and Perturabo did love Magnus, would they have followed him like they did Horus?
Lorgar was consistent before the Heresy of his respect and admiration for Magnus. Seriously, his total fangirling over him in Aurelian almost begins to rival Kasper Hawser's love letter to the Space Wolves that make up Prospero Burns' third act.
I myself have not read Angel Exterminatus, and this information is second-hand, but I consider my source a reliable one.
Sanguinius did indeed seem to like most of his bros.
The Khan is just a guess, but his creation of the Librarius department with Magnus, and the fact that it was indeed the Chief Librarian of the White Scars who spoke for Magnus's sake at Nikaea inclines me to believe such.
Your question, as pertaining to Lorgar, is sort of inaccurate. Lorgar didn't "follow" Magnus. It was the Word Bearers who conspired to make Horus fall and use him as the face of the Horus Heresy, and indeed, Lorgar has taken it upon himself to work behind the scenes, making his brothers (Huge spoiler alert)
Spoiler:
Turn into Daemon Princes before the battle of Terra.
As for Perturabo, probably. That Horus was the leader of the Heresy was incidental. He had his own reasons for turning.
I disagree. With Magnus, it was only a matter of time. If not the burning of Prospero, then the flesh change. He would have found a rationalization, an excuse, to do what he desired one way or another. The only thing that could save Magnus from his eventual fate was the Golden Throne.
Which he would be sitting on if the razing of Prospero did not occur, lol.
And the Webway itself would have been fine if a lot of bad gak didn't go down, all directly part of a plan by Tzeentch.
That Magnus was already, in the sense of folded time, a slave to Chaos. He knew this like a dog knows the way home; not based on rational argument and fact but on what we might call "scent." This "scent" is the ironic corralary to Magnus's "sight." I posted in-depth on Magnus's sight/blindness here:
Of course Magnus was always in the thrall of Chaos, Tzeentch never had any "doubt", if such a term can be applied to a Chaos God, of that, because it had already made it occur (And in my personal headcannon, I like to imagine that when Magnus bartered with Tzeentch and lost his eye, rather than just losing it, history was changed to make it as though there was never an eye to begin with, and he had always been a Cyclops.). I'd wager only the Emperor (Due to his power in the Warp) and the Necrons/C'tan are the only beings in the galaxy immune to Tzeentch's power over causality and fate. In a way, Leman Russ was also nothing more than a pawn of Tzeentch, being used as a tool to deliver his most powerful servant to him.
I've thought through those possibilities -- but of course such thinking relies on speculation. Would Magnus have gone willingly to the Golden Throne? It is difficult to say, considering we don't know what that would cost him. But I think it is unlikely that Magnus could not have guessed his fate, his eventual enthronement, if he had any of those crucial pieces of information. He may be arrogant but he is also a genius beyond mortal comprehension. Following that logic through, I would conclude that Magnus would not likely go willingly to the Throne. And therefore it was the purpose of the SW all along to bring him, him specifically -- not, as if often said, any traitorous Primarch. That would also explain why Russ had smelled Magnus out, so to speak. It is what Russ was designed to do, just as Magnus was designed to sit the Golden Throne.
I'd say yes, he certainly would, frankly.
Magnus made a total psychic connection with the Emperor, and was horrified that he deprived himself of the chance to lead humanity to a golden age atop the Golden Throne (Hur).
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DarthMarko wrote: Actually Magnus was mocking Lorgar in front of Russ and Russ stops him....(Shrike)
Like I said this is Mcneil portrayal, the other is ADB-s....
Magnus and Lorgar friendship stops the moment Magnus tells a bad joke about Gods...
Magnus never mocked him on Shrike. I've already proven this to be the case. You are giving Magnus motivations that are never even alluded to in the story.
Russ just told him not to call him that, because he dislikes the name for reasons even he can't explain.
Nowhere does Magnus insult or mock Lorgar in A Thousand Sons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/02 21:29:42
It needs to be noted, that Magnus was losing his strength on his flight to Terra and without a help from that benevolent spirit....well *insert his fate*....
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Fluff for the Fluff God! 
