Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Do people realize that the sniper rounds aren't changing the gun, just giving you an alternate profile you can choose to fire like the submunition. So you could always just outflank and fire rapid fire, then fire sniper rounds the next. That way you're not pouring markers onto a unit just to get some use out of sniper rounds.

I think I kind of agree with Peregrine though, that people are too joyous about the changes to really factor in that that Tau troops aren't made to be very... aggressive. For example I do plan on running outflanking Kroot. First turn I hope to get a unit of pathfinders within 6" of the back table edge, so I can bring Kroot in behind enemy units and then deepstriking suits near the pathfinders to establish a foothold in enemy territory.

Lol, if you think 20 sniper kroot and 8 pathfinders is only marginally better than twenty ratlings, then I think you and I have such different views that continuing to discuss this with you would be silly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Do people realize that the sniper rounds aren't changing the gun, just giving you an alternate profile you can choose to fire like the submunition. So you could always just outflank and fire rapid fire, then fire sniper rounds the next. That way you're not pouring markers onto a unit just to get some use out of sniper rounds.

I think I kind of agree with Peregrine though, that people are too joyous about the changes to really factor in that that Tau troops aren't made to be very... aggressive. For example I do plan on running outflanking Kroot. First turn I hope to get a unit of pathfinders within 6" of the back table edge, so I can bring Kroot in behind enemy units and then deepstriking suits near the pathfinders to establish a foothold in enemy territory.

I agree with this for the most part. Where I disagree with Peregrine seems to be wheather or not they are worth paying points for. You I think have it spot on, and I think we will see alot of what you described.

cryhavok wrote:
Lol, if you think 20 sniper kroot and 8 pathfinders is only marginally better than twenty ratlings, then I think you and I have such different views that continuing to discuss this with you would be silly.

20 sniper Kroot and 8 Pathfinders is better than 20 ratlings because of the 8 Pathfinders, the Kroot are garbage but you can still use the markerlights to support better units instead.

20 sniper Kroot and 8 Pathfinders markerlighting for the Kroot is only marginally better than the ratlings. The Pathfinders are no longer contributing anything useful, they're just making your snipers "better".

If you want to argue that Kroot are good you can't just bring in random unrelated units, otherwise it's no longer about the Kroot.

Note to self: every unit in the Eldar codex is bad, because I can't argue it's about the Force Multiplier that Farseers bring. Especially not giving Harlequins Fortune, it's no longer about the Harlequins.

 Peregrine wrote:

cryhavok wrote:
Lol, if you think 20 sniper kroot and 8 pathfinders is only marginally better than twenty ratlings, then I think you and I have such different views that continuing to discuss this with you would be silly.

20 sniper Kroot and 8 Pathfinders is better than 20 ratlings because of the 8 Pathfinders, the Kroot are garbage but you can still use the markerlights to support better units instead.

20 sniper Kroot and 8 Pathfinders markerlighting for the Kroot is only marginally better than the ratlings. The Pathfinders are no longer contributing anything useful, they're just making your snipers "better".

If you want to argue that Kroot are good you can't just bring in random unrelated units, otherwise it's no longer about the Kroot.

First, you made this about the kroot and thier markerlights, and if you think those marker lights aren't going to be used as the versatile force multiplier they are you are just being silly. Second the twenty kroot by themselves cost a measly 140 with sniper ammo, far far less than ratlings. Third, kroot are not just marginally better than ratlings, they are alot better.

For one, they do not go to ground at the first thing that sneezes in thier direction. Also they can kill stuff in cc (not well, but several orders of magnitude better than ratlings, or even gaurdsmen for that matter). Also They are SOOOOOOOOOOOOO much cheaper it is ridiculous. They even are scoring units, and do not compete with a more valuable slot.

And that doesn't even touch on the krootox that you can take, or all the ablative wounds you could throw in with hounds. It doesn't touch on the force multipliers you can choose to apply (not just markerlights, but got an ethereal within 12") or the fact that they can switch to a rapid fire weapon while on the move if your markerlights are otherwise engaged. Or the fact that in a tau army a gigantic squad can enable more supporting fire than might otherwise be possible.

Now I am well aware that some of those option are not the best, but regardless, the kroot are vastly superior to ratlings.

cryhavok wrote:
First, you made this about the kroot and thier markerlights, and if you think those marker lights aren't going to be used as the versatile force multiplier they are you are just being silly.

No, you did. You're the one who claimed that Kroot are awesome because you can move them and then burn tons of markerlight hits to bring them back to BS 5 for their snap shots. If you want to propose such a ridiculously inefficient strategy then you need to count the markerlight carriers as part of the Kroot unit, you don't get credit for their markerlights because they aren't available to support anything but the Kroot. Or, if you do count the markerlights as actual markerlights then you have to analyze the Kroot at BS 1.

Second the twenty kroot by themselves cost a measly 140 with sniper ammo, far far less than ratlings.

Ok, so we look at just the snipers. Kroot are only BS 3, so you have to bring more of them to match the ratlings at BS 4, which brings the points for a given number of average hits to the same level.

Third, kroot are not just marginally better than ratlings, they are alot better.

No, they aren't. They have lower BS, their cover bonus only applies in one specific kind of terrain, and they have 12" less range on their guns. The only meaningful advantage Kroot have over ratlings is that they score, and they aren't even very good at scoring.

For one, they do not go to ground at the first thing that sneezes in thier direction.

Sure they do. In fact, Kroot are even MORE likely to be forced to go to ground because their cover bonus only applies to one type of terrain.

Also they can kill stuff in cc (not well, but several orders of magnitude better than ratlings, or even gaurdsmen for that matter).

Not in any meaningful way, now that the new codex crippled that ability. Being slightly less worthless in combat doesn't mean it's something to care about.

And that doesn't even touch on the krootox that you can take

You mean the expensive and fragile "autocannon" that you should never waste points on?

or all the ablative wounds you could throw in with hounds.

So let me get this straight: you think it's a good idea to pay 5 points per model for ablative wounds when you can pay 6 points per model for the same ablative wound but actually have it carry a gun?

It doesn't touch on the force multipliers you can choose to apply (not just markerlights, but got an ethereal within 12")

Why would you ever want to waste your valuable (and expensive) force multipliers on mere Kroot when there are so many better things to use them on?

or the fact that they can switch to a rapid fire weapon while on the move if your markerlights are otherwise engaged.

At which point they're worse than Fire Warriors in every way.

Or the fact that in a tau army a gigantic squad can enable more supporting fire than might otherwise be possible.

You know what can do that even better? Fire Warriors.

Meh, it is a situational improvement. Just watched the game over on Frontline where the kroot snipers were actually what the daemon player was most afraid of because of his GUO. I am sure tyranids players(who I have been hearing are doing pretty well) would also be afraid of poisoned rending weapons.

Then again that is just what I hear, nothing to take as fact.

To be Fair, the kroot hound is 5 points for a free wound + acute sense and initiative 5 when you fail moral.

which really isn't that bad. especially when you are running out flank tactics at which point the krootox becomes a bit more useful against side back armor of vehicles. but that is all situational.

One very interesting rule is the way the Homing Beacon for Pathfinders works.

In essence, move 12" on the scout move. Move 18" on your first move. They are now WAY up the line you need them on. Do this on both flanks if you deploy first, do it on the PREFERRED flank if you deploy second.

On the second round, your deep strikers and outflankers will hit DEAD ON where you needed them. If the Fish is destroyed, the ability to use the Homing Beacon is in the unit itself!

This ensures that an outflanking and/or Dep Striking strategy will work and work well.

Peregrine, You and I seem to have entirely different deffinitions of 'garbage' I am not claiming the kroot are the best thing ever, I am saying they have potential, and they are useful when used right. I would agree with others assessment of mediocre troops but not excellent. I think they are worth thier points. Whatever your deffinition of garbage is, I don't think either of us is swaying the other, so as far as I am concerned, I can agree to disagree.

cryhavok wrote:
Peregrine, You and I seem to have entirely different deffinitions of 'garbage' I am not claiming the kroot are the best thing ever, I am saying they have potential, and they are useful when used right. I would agree with others assessment of mediocre troops but not excellent. I think they are worth thier points. Whatever your deffinition of garbage is, I don't think either of us is swaying the other, so as far as I am concerned, I can agree to disagree.

You're not alone dude. Every single one of his posts on the topic are filled with glaring inaccuracies and short sitedness. I find it amusing when people can be so sure of themselves and so dead ass wrong at the same time. The ink isn't even dry on the Codex but master Peregrine is already absolutely convinced that a dramatically re-purposed unit is "trash."

Shadar and I rarely agree, haha, but I gotta side with him on this. Kroot are definitely worth a shot in most Tau armies. 7 Pt snipers is a good deal, especially considering the boosts they can be given through supporting units. They also fill a role Tau otherwise cannot which is far reaching scoring units. For 5 points you can get accurate outflanking which is nice. The sniper ammo also enables them to engage a multitude of targets. Bubblewrap is important for Tau and Kroot fill this roll swimmingly. Also isn't a bad idea to string out a Kroot bubble wrap for supporting OW on units who have to hit your bubble wrap (I think this will be particularly useful vs Daemons). I think Peregrine is jumping to conclusions by marking them as a "bad" unit, when for their cheap costs they can fill a specific role. I wouldn't rely solely on them but cheap, expendable bodies are nice to have. Hell, I even take them in my army with Orks because I like the access to sniper shots and the flexibility of outflank/infiltrate. So far they haven't let me down (not that I expect large output from them either)

Ok, so we look at just the snipers. Kroot are only BS 3, so you have to bring more of them to match the ratlings at BS 4, which brings the points for a given number of average hits to the same level.

Wrong. You are also getting more bodies from the Kroot for the same price, meaning they will be both more resilient to shooting and more difficult to deal with in assault.

No, they aren't. They have lower BS, their cover bonus only applies in one specific kind of terrain, and they have 12" less range on their guns. The only meaningful advantage Kroot have over ratlings is that they score, and they aren't even very good at scoring.

Why aren't they very good at scoring? What the hell does that even mean? Do Kroot have to be closer to an objective or something? They are 5/6/7 point bodies that stand on an objective. What exactly is your criteria to be considered "good at scoring." Also, they (as a unit) are vastly superior to rattlings in assault. A maxed out unit is reasonably cheap and will at minimum be a tar pitting nightmare for an assault unit if properly supported (read, Ethereal). A bunch of I5 attacks, AP 5 attacks, and S6 attacks mixed in together make them a lot better at assault then you seem to realize.

Sure they do. In fact, Kroot are even MORE likely to be forced to go to ground because their cover bonus only applies to one type of terrain.

Nonesense. Kroot have ablative wounds by the dozen. Just a completely inaccurate statement.

Not in any meaningful way, now that the new codex crippled that ability. Being slightly less worthless in combat doesn't mean it's something to care about.

Not even worth the time it takes to type this sentence, really. Go ahead and charge every Kroot blob you see, with every unit you have. Tell me how it works out for you.

You mean the expensive and fragile "autocannon" that you should never waste points on?

The one that comes with ablative wounds, and hides behind super cheap Kroot, and adds S6 CC attacks to the table? You do realize a Rifleman cost ~115 points depending on the codex, right? How many Oxes do you get for 115 points? Can you hide Dreads behind ablative wounds. Can normal autocannons be MLed? Could you please define the words "expensive" and "fragile" for the rest of the class so we can all be on the same page?

So let me get this straight: you think it's a good idea to pay 5 points per model for ablative wounds when you can pay 6 points per model for the same ablative wound but actually have it carry a gun?

Yes, because they also carry I5 CC attacks, you know the ones you are insistent on ignoring because they don't fit your Kroot suck at CC narrative?

Why would you ever want to waste your valuable (and expensive) force multipliers on mere Kroot when there are so many better things to use them on?

You can augment 20 sniper rifles and 3 full volleys of "autocannons" with one marker. Do you really think any other slot gets "vastly" more mileage out of those markers?

At which point they're worse than Fire Warriors in every way.

Except for the fact that after that one turn, you can stand still and shoot sniper rifles, and they don't fold nearly as easily in CC, and they are significantly cheaper/wound, and they can hide Autocannons in the unit, and the Firewarriors can't Infiltrate at all (although they can sorta outflank), which is the pre-req for this condition in the first place? Yeah, if you pretend all of those advantages don't really exist then you make a good point...

You know what can do that even better? Fire Warriors.

What? FWs can't even come close to the squad size of Kroot. Are you just trolling?

Yeah, I didnt really get the "waste your force multipliers on Kroot" comment. More guns firing with the multiplier effecting it means more efficiency. Kroot in rapid-fire range with an Etheral buffing will get more mileage. Plus, most of the buffs arent unit specific but rather AoE and so you aren't really "wasting" anything.

It isn't like you can't have both FW and Kroot, they fulfill completely different roles. FW are good for backfield scoring and support fire. Kroot are better for midfield due to increased durability and can reach opponent's deployment zone through outflank. Sniper Kroot also scare Tyranid MCs/Riptides/DKs/ETC, which is a nice little bonus.

It isn't like you can't have both FW and Kroot, they fulfill completely different roles. FW are good for backfield scoring and support fire. Kroot are better for midfield due to increased durability and can reach opponent's deployment zone through outflank. Sniper Kroot also scare Tyranid MCs/Riptides/DKs/ETC, which is a nice little bonus.

Exactly. Queue the "why not both" meme. Kroot seem to be an ideal bubble wrap for your fire base, and the supporting fire only multiplies this. I think people will have a whole new respect for Kroot in CC once they realize they have to eat an armies worth of Overwatch just to get there.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Wrong.

Do the math.

Why aren't they very good at scoring?

Because scoring involves two things:

1) Be within 3" of an objective.

2) Don't die or get outside 3".

Kroot suck at the second because they have poor durability against shooting, nonexistent durability in assault, and cost too many points. If you want to score objectives with a horde unit you bring allied boyz or platoons.

A bunch of I5 attacks, AP 5 attacks, and S6 attacks mixed in together make them a lot better at assault then you seem to realize.

No it doesn't. They're STR 3 on offense, and T3/6+ on defense, and only the hounds (which suck because they can't shoot) have I5. This means that half the armies in the game get to swing first and massacre a bunch of Kroot, and then their return attacks bounce off T4/3+. And then, because you lost combat by a huge margin, you fail your morale check and get swept off the table.

The fact that ratlings are slightly worse in combat is irrelevant since both units are utterly worthless there.

A maxed out unit is reasonably cheap and will at minimum be a tar pitting nightmare for an assault unit if properly supported (read, Ethereal).

No, they're utterly worthless as a tarpit. If your "tarpit" is made up of T3/6+ models you need stubborn/fearless to survive the end-of-combat morale check, otherwise all you do is give your opponent's unit a free assault move and consolidation.

(And no, an Ethereal doesn't help because even with LD 10 you lose combat by such a huge margin that you still need double 1s.)

Nonesense. Kroot have ablative wounds by the dozen. Just a completely inaccurate statement.

Why are you wasting points on dozens of ablative wounds when the ablative wounds are almost as expensive as the shooting models you're buying them to protect?

You do realize a Rifleman cost ~115 points depending on the codex, right?

Err, lol. Crisis suit with 2x missile pod (better firepower than the Krootox) = 52 points. So for a whole two points more than the Krootox you get better guns, T4/3+ instead of T3/no save, and JSJ.

Could you please define the words "expensive" and "fragile" for the rest of the class so we can all be on the same page?

Here's a good definition: T3 and no armor save. Which, conveniently, is what Krootox have.

Yes, because they also carry I5 CC attacks, you know the ones you are insistent on ignoring because they don't fit your Kroot suck at CC narrative?

You're the one talking about how great sniper Kroot are. If you're buying hounds for sniper Kroot you're just throwing away points.

You can augment 20 sniper rifles and 3 full volleys of "autocannons" with one marker. Do you really think any other slot gets "vastly" more mileage out of those markers?

Easily. 20 sniper rifles against marines with BS 5 and ignoring cover = 4.5 wounds. One Riptide with markerlights to ignore cover probably beats that, and that's just the most obvious option. Full crisis suit squads with plasma/fusion gives you 6.25 MEQs dead on average. Even basic Fire Warriors (without Ethereal/Fireblade bonuses) match that.

So yes, pretty much anything that isn't sniper Kroot is a better use of markerlights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Leth wrote:
Meh, it is a situational improvement. Just watched the game over on Frontline where the kroot snipers were actually what the daemon player was most afraid of because of his GUO. I am sure tyranids players(who I have been hearing are doing pretty well) would also be afraid of poisoned rending weapons.

This is the right way to look at it. Kroot are a situational unit that is only good against a few specific things (MCs, artillery), so you might consider them if you really need anti-MC shooting but otherwise you're going to use allied troops instead.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Ok, so we look at just the snipers. Kroot are only BS 3, so you have to bring more of them to match the ratlings at BS 4, which brings the points for a given number of average hits to the same level.

Wrong. You are also getting more bodies from the Kroot for the same price, meaning they will be both more resilient to shooting and more difficult to deal with in assault.

No, they aren't. They have lower BS, their cover bonus only applies in one specific kind of terrain, and they have 12" less range on their guns. The only meaningful advantage Kroot have over ratlings is that they score, and they aren't even very good at scoring.

Why aren't they very good at scoring? What the hell does that even mean? Do Kroot have to be closer to an objective or something? They are 5/6/7 point bodies that stand on an objective. What exactly is your criteria to be considered "good at scoring." Also, they (as a unit) are vastly superior to rattlings in assault. A maxed out unit is reasonably cheap and will at minimum be a tar pitting nightmare for an assault unit if properly supported (read, Ethereal). A bunch of I5 attacks, AP 5 attacks, and S6 attacks mixed in together make them a lot better at assault then you seem to realize.

Sure they do. In fact, Kroot are even MORE likely to be forced to go to ground because their cover bonus only applies to one type of terrain.

Nonesense. Kroot have ablative wounds by the dozen. Just a completely inaccurate statement.

Not in any meaningful way, now that the new codex crippled that ability. Being slightly less worthless in combat doesn't mean it's something to care about.

Not even worth the time it takes to type this sentence, really. Go ahead and charge every Kroot blob you see, with every unit you have. Tell me how it works out for you.

You mean the expensive and fragile "autocannon" that you should never waste points on?

The one that comes with ablative wounds, and hides behind super cheap Kroot, and adds S6 CC attacks to the table? You do realize a Rifleman cost ~115 points depending on the codex, right? How many Oxes do you get for 115 points? Can you hide Dreads behind ablative wounds. Can normal autocannons be MLed? Could you please define the words "expensive" and "fragile" for the rest of the class so we can all be on the same page?

So let me get this straight: you think it's a good idea to pay 5 points per model for ablative wounds when you can pay 6 points per model for the same ablative wound but actually have it carry a gun?

Yes, because they also carry I5 CC attacks, you know the ones you are insistent on ignoring because they don't fit your Kroot suck at CC narrative?

Why would you ever want to waste your valuable (and expensive) force multipliers on mere Kroot when there are so many better things to use them on?

You can augment 20 sniper rifles and 3 full volleys of "autocannons" with one marker. Do you really think any other slot gets "vastly" more mileage out of those markers?

At which point they're worse than Fire Warriors in every way.

Except for the fact that after that one turn, you can stand still and shoot sniper rifles, and they don't fold nearly as easily in CC, and they are significantly cheaper/wound, and they can hide Autocannons in the unit, and the Firewarriors can't Infiltrate at all (although they can sorta outflank), which is the pre-req for this condition in the first place? Yeah, if you pretend all of those advantages don't really exist then you make a good point...

You know what can do that even better? Fire Warriors.

What? FWs can't even come close to the squad size of Kroot. Are you just trolling?

Exalted

You know, I think the problem here is that people are pretending that allies don't exist. Before you try to justify the use of Kroot you need to take a look at allied boyz (of either type) and IG platoons and understand what they are capable of. Once you've studied the alternatives then you can come back and try to explain how Kroot have an advantage in the "horde objective holder" role.

(Hint: they don't have any advantage.)

Because scoring involves two things:

1) Be within 3" of an objective.

2) Don't die or get outside 3".

Kroot suck at the second because they have poor durability against shooting, nonexistent durability in assault, and cost too many points. If you want to score objectives with a horde unit you bring allied boyz or platoons.

Um, you pay 5/6/7 points per Kroot that dies just the same to heavy weapons as a 12-15 point marine, and has twice the wounds against small arms. Point for point, Kroot are likely superior to Marines in every way in terms of getting shot at. Prove me wrong.

No it doesn't. They're STR 3 on offense, and T3/6+ on defense, and only the hounds (which suck because they can't shoot) have I5. This means that half the armies in the game get to swing first and massacre a bunch of Kroot, and then their return attacks bounce off T4/3+. And then, because you lost combat by a huge margin, you fail your morale check and get swept off the table.

I love how you keep pretending the Hounds and Oxe don't do anything and continue to leave them out of your CC considerations. They are an option. You can take them. If you are wanting to make your Kroot blob better at assault, then you take them. How difficult is this to understand?

The fact that ratlings are slightly worse in combat is irrelevant since both units are utterly worthless there.

Meaningless inacurate drivel.

No, they're utterly worthless as a tarpit. If your "tarpit" is made up of T3/6+ models you need stubborn/fearless to survive the end-of-combat morale check, otherwise all you do is give your opponent's unit a free assault move and consolidation.

(And no, an Ethereal doesn't help because even with LD 10 you lose combat by such a huge margin that you still need double 1s.)

Please review the options an Ethereal have and get back to me on this one.

Why are you wasting points on dozens of ablative wounds when the ablative wounds are almost as expensive as the shooting models you're buying them to protect?

1.) Almost expensive != As expensive. 2.) Because the factor significantly into the whole being decent at CC and tarpitting equation you keep wanting to leave them out of.

Err, lol. Crisis suit with 2x missile pod (better firepower than the Krootox) = 52 points. So for a whole two points more than the Krootox you get better guns, T4/3+ instead of T3/no save, and JSJ.

I don't think you've actually read the Codex. Get back to me when you pony up your 50 bucks. (Hint, your just slightly off on the price of an Ox)

Here's a good definition: T3 and no armor save. Which, conveniently, is what Krootox have.

Which would be relevant if they couldn't hide behind 20+ other wounds....

You're the one talking about how great sniper Kroot are. If you're buying hounds for sniper Kroot you're just throwing away points.

/sigh.

Easily. 20 sniper rifles against marines with BS 5 and ignoring cover = 4.5 wounds. One Riptide with markerlights to ignore cover probably beats that, and that's just the most obvious option. Full crisis suit squads with plasma/fusion gives you 6.25 MEQs dead on average. Even basic Fire Warriors (without Ethereal/Fireblade bonuses) match that.

Way to pretend the Autocannons that I specifically mentioned aren't a part of the equation.

This is the right way to look at it. Kroot are a situational unit that is only good against a few specific things (MCs, artillery), so you might consider them if you really need anti-MC shooting but otherwise you're going to use allied troops instead.

Or you could like, buy the codex, actually learn how they are different in this edition, play some actual games with them, and then formulate an opinion before sticking your e-foot in your e-mouth...

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Point for point, Kroot are likely superior to Marines in every way in terms of getting shot at. Prove me wrong.

Bolters against Kroot = 0.666 kills per hit.

Bolters against Kroot in 5+ cover = 0.45 kills per hit.

Bolters against MEQs = 0.166666 kills per hit.

Double the losses of the MEQs to account for them being double the point cost and you still only have 0.33333 kills per hit, less than even the Kroot in cover.

I love how you keep pretending the Hounds and Oxe don't do anything and continue to leave them out of your CC considerations. They are an option. You can take them. If you are wanting to make your Kroot blob better at assault, then you take them. How difficult is this to understand?

I thought we were talking about sniper Kroot? Or are you going to admit that sniper Kroot suck at point efficiency because only half the squad is carrying sniper rifles?

Please review the options an Ethereal have and get back to me on this one.

Ethereals have two abilities: everything within 12" gets to use their leadership, and everything within 12" gets to fire an extra pulse shot. Neither of these make Kroot useful as a tarpit.

(Yes, they technically have other words in their rules. You're never going to use any of them.)

1.) Almost expensive != As expensive.

You save a whole one point per model at the expense of their entire shooting ability. Taking 5 point ablative wounds for 6-7 point models is a complete waste of points compared to just taking more shooting models.

2.) Because the factor significantly into the whole being decent at CC and tarpitting equation you keep wanting to leave them out of.

Ok, fine. But every time you post numbers for how much firepower Kroot have I expect you to include the point sink hounds in their price, not just quote an all-sniper squad for shooting and have it magically gain hounds in the assault phase.

I don't think you've actually read the Codex. Get back to me when you pony up your 50 bucks. (Hint, your just slightly off on the price of an Ox)

No, you're just not paying attention.

Two Krootox = 50 points.

Crisis suit with 2x missile pods = 52 points.

Both options have four "autocannon" shots (at least if we generously assume we're within 24"), but the crisis suit also has T4/3+ and JSJ.

Which would be relevant if they couldn't hide behind 20+ other wounds....

20+ other wounds that are contributing nothing against the things you want to shoot autocannons at (light vehicles). Now your autocannons are even less efficient compared to crisis suits.

Way to pretend the Autocannons that I specifically mentioned aren't a part of the equation.

Fine, let's add three "autocannons". Now your squad gets another 1.4 wounds at the cost of 75 points. Meanwhile 75 points of basic Fire Warriors SHOOTING WITHOUT MARKERLIGHTS gives you 1.85 wounds. Congratulations, by adding Krootox (which continue to suck) you made your unit LESS effective compared to basic Fire Warriors.

Or you could like, buy the codex, actually learn how they are different in this edition, play some actual games with them, and then formulate an opinion before sticking your e-foot in your e-mouth...

Been there, done that, remembered that I could take boyz or platoons instead of garbage.

Ethereal can provide stubborn, so with the LD buff, the Kroot can provide a pretty nice tarpit.

I'll agree that Guardsmen/Boyz are both better horde-styled objective grabbers. But you can only take 2 big squads if they are being allied in. I tend to believe that at 1750+ you should have 5+ troops choices, so in the case of Tau/Orks you'd still have 2-4 troops to fill out with Tau units. In my case, I take 2 Fire Warrior squads and a fairly large Kroot squad giving me a nice hefty number of scoring models.

One thing you forgot to calculate when looking at the durability of Kroot was the ability to GTG. This is huge. I use this tactic regularly with all different kinds of units and so far every game I've used Kroot in i've gone to ground multiple times. It is incredibly difficult to shift them once they've GTG in ruins or wooded areas and still difficult to shift in plain area terrain as well.

Once again, I don't think they are a great unit, but I also think you are over-exaggerating their weaknesses and also over-estimating Fire Warriors (IMO, they are still a bit overpriced).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also think your math may be slightly off on the boltgun kills. Are you assuming upgrades on Kroot? What points are you using for marines (I'd think it most accurate to average the cost of all the different marines to determine point value). I think they are damn near even in durability vs. Bolters as an average marine.

LValx wrote:
Ethereal can provide stubborn, so with the LD buff, the Kroot can provide a pretty nice tarpit.

Only if you give up the extra shot ability, which you will never do. Just pretend the other three abilities don't exist at all.

But you can only take 2 big squads if they are being allied in.

Well, with boyz maybe. With IG platoons you can take two 30-man blobs, two 20-man blobs, and a giant pile of HWS/SWS to throw all over the table. I can't really see this being much of a limiting factor, especially since things like cover-ignoring Riptides make a joke of the traditional style of objective claiming. You don't need many scoring units when you can easily wipe out your opponent's from across the table.

One thing you forgot to calculate when looking at the durability of Kroot was the ability to GTG. This is huge. I use this tactic regularly with all different kinds of units and so far every game I've used Kroot in i've gone to ground multiple times. It is incredibly difficult to shift them once they've GTG in ruins or wooded areas and still difficult to shift in plain area terrain as well.

But this applies to boyz and guardsmen just as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LValx wrote:
Are you assuming upgrades on Kroot?

Sniper upgrade, since that's what they were talking about.

What points are you using for marines (I'd think it most accurate to average the cost of all the different marines to determine point value).

Just doubling it the price of a Kroot for simplicity. The 1-2 point difference isn't all that significant compared to the difference in durability, you have to bump the marines up to 21 points per model just to match the Kroot in cover (and even more for Kroot in the open).

I think they are damn near even in durability vs. Bolters as an average marine.

Only if you have better than 5+ cover. GTG in woods, sure. But just sitting behind generic 5+ cover the MEQs are better per point.

Boyz are fearless, so they cannot GTG.

Once again, I am not arguing Kroot as being better than Boyz/Guardsmen, I even said as much. So don't argue against a point I wasnt making.

I was simply pointing out that when factoring in Kroot durability vs anti-infantry weaponry it is important to remember that they can essentially grant themselves a 3+ or better.

I don't want to get too deep into talking about things in a vacuum, but it's unlikely that against a good opponent you will just be "wiping his scoring units off the table"

I'm not sure where you play, or what your "meta" is like, but where I play and the events that I frequent, you really need to be able to score objectives. So in my opinion it is necessary to take that many scoring units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
if you are assuming upgrades on Kroot then you should probably factor in upgrades that the Marines are likely to take as well, I think that is the only fair way to truly compare the two.

If you compare plain Kroot to 15 Pt SM models, they will have very similar durability to Bolters.

Only if you give up the extra shot ability, which you will never do. Just pretend the other three abilities don't exist at all.

Is that really how you play the game? Pretend other options don't exist and just go with the one you had in mind when you slap your army onto paper? Stubborn is an option. If you need a tarpit in turn A, you use stubborn...because your need it.

Well, with boyz maybe. With IG platoons you can take two 30-man blobs, two 20-man blobs, and a giant pile of HWS/SWS to throw all over the table. I can't really see this being much of a limiting factor, especially since things like cover-ignoring Riptides make a joke of the traditional style of objective claiming. You don't need many scoring units when you can easily wipe out your opponent's from across the table.

What if you don't want to take IG or Orcs?

But this applies to boyz and guardsmen just as well.

Uh...............Okay?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LValx wrote:
Are you assuming upgrades on Kroot?

Sniper upgrade, since that's what they were talking about.

Only if you have better than 5+ cover. GTG in woods, sure. But just sitting behind generic 5+ cover the MEQs are better per point.

Against Bolters....They are weaker against pretty much every single heavy and special weapon in the game...which is a considerable amount of firepower. Kroot behind an ADL? Superior. Kroot in a Forrest? Superior. Kroot in Ruins? Superior. Kroot gtg? Superior. Kroot with Ethereal FNP? Superior.

Look, none of that is to say Kroot are the best objective campers in the world. They are just on par with the standard bearer of troops selections, Marines, which means they are perfectly suitable for that role.

Yeah, I gotta agree with Shadar on the comment I forgot to address previously. Simply saying that you will always choose a specific Ethereal option is pretty silly. How many games have you played with the new Tau?

I've got ~10 under my belt and while I agree that extra shots is the best overall it certainly isn't the only one i've used. I've used all of them at different points when it suited me to do so. Are they equally good? No. But some turns you wont much benefit from extra shots at rapid fire range and are better off running and snap firing or grabbing an FNP save.

I get where you are coming from to a large extent, I myself take 2 large Boyz squads because I wanted a stronger midfield presence, but I think you overstate weaknesses and come off too strong. I can be prone to that myself and as such I know that a lot of times it can be counter productive.

They might not be your cup 'o tea, but I don't think you are making a good case for them being trash.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Is that really how you play the game? Pretend other options don't exist and just go with the one you had in mind when you slap your army onto paper? Stubborn is an option. If you need a tarpit in turn A, you use stubborn...because your need it.

Or you grant a bunch of extra shots and kill the incoming unit and then you don't need a tarpit anymore. In virtually every situation you can imagine giving extra shots is better than any of the other abilities, and giving stubborn is the least useful of them. Talking about the incredibly rare situation where you have stubborn Kroot is pointless when the vast majority of the time they won't be.

What if you don't want to take IG or Orcs?

Then you take whatever better scoring unit your allies have.

Against Bolters....They are weaker against pretty much every single heavy and special weapon in the game...which is a considerable amount of firepower.

And let me give you a hint here: those heavy and special weapons are going to be shooting at battlesuits, not Kroot/marines/whatever.

Look, none of that is to say Kroot are the best objective campers in the world. They are just on par with the standard bearer of troops selections, Marines, which means they are perfectly suitable for that role.

Except that's completely wrong. Marines aren't the standard bearer at all. Tactical squads suck, they're the barely-adequate troops that you take because you have to fill the FOC minimums before you can take the good stuff in the codex. So even if Kroot can match tactical squads at camping objectives they still fall well short of being good at it.

I thought we were talking about sniper Kroot? Or are you going to admit that sniper Kroot suck at point efficiency because only half the squad is carrying sniper rifles?

I don't even know what this means. Do you factoring in the shooting efficiency of your TH/SS termies when determing how good your Dev squad is. It's basically the same thing, except they just happen to be standing next to each other.

Ethereals have two abilities: everything within 12" gets to use their leadership, and everything within 12" gets to fire an extra pulse shot. Neither of these make Kroot useful as a tarpit.

(Yes, they technically have other words in their rules. You're never going to use any of them.)

Again, this is just silly. You said they couldn't get stubborn, and when its pointed out to you how wrong that is, you just say you would never choose to give them stubborn? That's like saying Vendettas suck because I only like to shoot them at gits and they are inefficient git killers....

You save a whole one point per model at the expense of their entire shooting ability. Taking 5 point ablative wounds for 6-7 point models is a complete waste of points compared to just taking more shooting models.

It's 2 points. That's damn near 33%cheaper. Its a massive difference. Your inability to see that doesn't make it less so.

but the crisis suit also has T4/3+ and JSJ.

And can't hide behind other wounds, or add there marker light usage to 20 sniper rifles...

20+ other wounds that are contributing nothing against the things you want to shoot autocannons at (light vehicles). Now your autocannons are even less efficient compared to crisis suits.

Rending weapons don't do anything to light vehicles? Autocannons don't kill troops? Weird.

Fine, let's add three "autocannons". Now your squad gets another 1.4 wounds at the cost of 75 points. Meanwhile 75 points of basic Fire Warriors SHOOTING WITHOUT MARKERLIGHTS gives you 1.85 wounds. Congratulations, by adding Krootox (which continue to suck) you made your unit LESS effective compared to basic Fire Warriors.

Uh.....did you forget what this conversation was about? Let me help you out big guy. It was about maximizing the use of markerlight tokens. 20 Sniper Rifles and 3 Autocannons will get more mileage out of tokens then just about any other single selection.

Been there, done that, remembered that I could take boyz or platoons instead of garbage.

Oh really? How many games with Kroot have you squeezed in in the last week?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Or you grant a bunch of extra shots and kill the incoming unit and then you don't need a tarpit anymore. In virtually every situation I can imagine giving extra shots is better than any of the other abilities, and giving stubborn is the least useful of them. Talking about the incredibly rare situation where you have stubborn Kroot is pointless when the vast majority of the time they won't be.

FIFY. I can imagine plenty of situations where I would go for stubborn over the other abilities. /shrug

Then you take whatever better scoring unit your allies have.

Except that's completely wrong. Marines aren't the standard bearer at all. Tactical squads suck, they're the barely-adequate troops that you take because you have to fill the FOC minimums before you can take the good stuff in the codex. So even if Kroot can match tactical squads at camping objectives they still fall well short of being good at it.

Um...well, since according to you apparently the only viable objective campers are IG blobs and Orcs....uh.....hmmm. Trying to figure out the disconnect here....

And let me give you a hint here: those heavy and special weapons are going to be shooting at battlesuits, not Kroot/marines/whatever.

No. Most of them are attached to the Bolters. Bolters almost don't exist with out heavy and special weapons.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
I don't even know what this means.

Never mind. I was confusing you with the other guy who was talking about how point-efficient sniper Kroot are.

Again, this is just silly. You said they couldn't get stubborn, and when its pointed out to you how wrong that is, you just say you would never choose to give them stubborn? That's like saying Vendettas suck because I only like to shoot them at gits and they are inefficient git killers....

I'm saying they can't get stubborn because it's almost impossible to come up with a situation where you are willing to give up the +1 shot ability. The other abilities on an Ethereal might as well not exist.

It's 2 points. That's damn near 33%cheaper. Its a massive difference. Your inability to see that doesn't make it less so.

It's only 2 points if you took sniper rifles. And I'd much rather have more 6-point Kroot or 7-point sniper Kroot than 5-point hounds to "protect" the shooters.

And can't hide behind other wounds, or add there marker light usage to 20 sniper rifles...

If you're hiding behind other wounds you're just making the unit much less point-efficient.

And who cares about markerlights on sniper rifles? Against everything but MCs those sniper rifles are worse than standard Kroot rifles.

Rending weapons don't do anything to light vehicles?

No, they really don't. Hoping for 6s on a STR 3 weapon is a joke against vehicles.

Uh.....did you forget what this conversation was about? Let me help you out big guy. It was about maximizing the use of markerlight tokens. 20 Sniper Rifles and 3 Autocannons will get more mileage out of tokens then just about any other single selection.

Except no they won't. 12 Fire Warriors with markerlights and 12 Fire Warriors without (equal points to the Kroot) out-shoot the Kroot by a solid margin. The Kroot only "win" if you focus on a pointless stat of "most boost derived from markerlights" instead of the final kills.

PS: That's without an Ethereal or Fireblade.

Oh really? How many games with Kroot have you squeezed in in the last week?

None. Because it took about 30 seconds to realize that they are worse than the other options I could take.

None. Because it took about 30 seconds to realize that they are worse than the other options I could take.

Exactly. That's pretty much all you need to say.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

None. Because it took about 30 seconds to realize that they are worse than the other options I could take.

Exactly. That's pretty much all you need to say.

So let's ask the same: how many new-codex games have you played with allied boyz and IG platoons?