Some Rambling Ideas For A New Xenos Army (Warning: Long...)

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**Slaanesh-Devotee**

So, I was reading more about Fortifications than I ever had before in the infamous ADL discussion, and really thinking about where they could be useful.
Then I thought about another thread, where someone had asked what sort of army GW could introduce that would play differently to the ones they already have? How would a new race work?
And I thought ‘A race that could use more fortifications than others perhaps?’

The idea of extra fortifications reminded me of the Ancient Romans, who had excellent engineers and were known for building barricades and walls and even forts before engaging in battles with the enemy, in order to provide themselves with advantages. The would build walls along the flanks of the field, to prevent the enemy from harassing their flanks as they advanced, etc.

So I thought, could a strongly Roman themed force work? I know the Imperium has a lot of influence from that sector in regards to the fluff, but as a specific armylist I think there is room to reflect this more strongly.

I started by thinking about the Fortifications. My initial idea was to allow them to swap Elite or Heavy Support slots for Fortifications, but the idea of a bunch of bastions appearing overnight seemed too far, even for super engineers. Therefore I changed my mind to actually have different types of fortifications as entries in the codex itself. That way, when fighting these guys, you really would find yourself facing lines of trenchs, razorwire, tanktraps, defence lines (An idea which I saw on another thread I think, for lighter Battlefield Fortifications made up of collections of various types of Battlefield Debris as a start) and then perhaps a fortress in the usual Fortification slot. But the points and slots used up by them would leave the actual army much smaller if you could break through. Obviously they would struggle with some of the Objective missions, but apart from a couple of specialist units that might have speed or breakthrough power, I would say that’s just part of the struggle of choosing this army.

As for the Engineers themselves, I wondered if they could have a choice of the Bolster/Shatter Defences special rules from the Space Marines and Chaos Marines. As I kept thinking, I decided that the Shatter Defences rule would go well with a small group of Sappers, if they were given such a unit, keeping Bolster Defences for any Engineer character. Then I thought the Sappers could also have Scout, Infiltrate and Deepstrike, plus a lot of Special Weapons, making them a large distraction while the infantry move up through their fortification. I’d expect them to have servo arms and engineers with similar rules to techmarines.

The Romans also had their famous tortoise formation, which I thought could be represented by the Fortress of Shields rule that the Dark Angels have, quite nicely. Give some entire troops unit Combat Shields, and perhaps even an elite troop could have Storm Shields, to benefit from it.

I wondered if Power Lances could be given to an infantry squad in order to represent the pilums that the legionnaires are renowned for. I thought about the Javelins that Romans would throw before getting close to the enemy and wondered if that could be reflected also. Perhaps they wield an energy weapon that can fire short arcs at the enemy and then can be used as a weapon in assaults? I was thinking something like – 24” S4 AP5 Assault 1, Counts as a CCW in Assaults. This would allow their ‘strong’ infantry to march up the field steadily closing with the enemy.

I personally think we need to have more armies that back away from the level of Space Marines, so I would expect pretty much normal human stats and flak armour as basic.

Given a fortification based army, I figured they should probably have some big guns too, so I thought they should get heavy weapon team squads and some different types of artillery teams etc. Looking through the USR I thought some special big guns that caused things like pinning, concussion, blinding would be useful, disrupting the enemy while the tortoise approaches.

Clearly they would need some sort of Auxiliaries as their line breaker. As the Romans did use some light cavalry and slingers and such to harass the enemy, I would think this would be the archetype to go for, perhaps engaging the enemy to stop them shooting up the tortoise while the slower moving but tougher units are able to move up and claim the objectives? Therefore I’m thinking a unit mounted on bikes or even actual cavalry; and a unit that is equipped with shorter ranged assault weapons so they can run to get close and move and fire while they are in range. I was considering Jetpack troops, but that begins to look too much like Tau I think. Perhaps Bikes or Cavalry with Hit and Run.

The Romans also had a fair amount of ancestor worship and households of nobles that fought bitterly for power and influence, so I figure they could have a background of pretty much clans of households. I would consider using Standards for the +1 result to be ancestor relics carried by honoured units into the battle, and perhaps a few items of wargear that emphasise this. The Romans had unit standards that were hugely important to the soldiers, so I think that would match up too.

Obviously that made me think the engineer and ancestor angles would really match up to the Space Dwarf idea of Squats, but it wouldn’t have to be. If it was, I would suggest human statline, but perhaps an armywide application of Adamantium Will, and some access to 4+ Carapace style armour. But that would be about it! And if dwarves was too tricky an idea to investigate, how about an avian species? Man-shaped, evolved beyond the need to fly themselves, but still with beaks and clawfeet and some feathers. It would give a chance for plumes of feathers on characters etc, as well as painting the plumage in ways to show units that have been hatched together, or decadent colours on more senior characters, etc.

I know people would probably want the mega-armour dwarf as the Squats used to have them, but I would probably restrict that to the personal guard of the Household Lord.

So, I would imagine the unit summary would look something like:
HQ -
Household Lord
Bodyguard
Engineer (as a squad or able to split up like Heralds?)

Troops-
Squad with Combat Shields
What sort of transports might suit this army?

Elites-
Squad with Storm Shields and Power Lances
Lighter Fortifications that can be used to funnel enemy. Razor Wire Sections, Ammo Dumps, Tank Traps, Defence Lines, etc.

Fast Attack-
Biker Auxilleries
Sappers

Heavy Support
Heavy Weapon Teams
Artillery
Heavier Bunker style Fortifications. Small Gunposts, Defence Lines with Emplaced Weapons, etc.
Some form of tank?

So, who thinks a Roman Legion with its Engineers , lead by a Powerful Member of an Ancient Household, could make an interesting new Xenos army? Anyone have any ideas sparked off by this that could be included to make it more interesting?

**washout77**

Hmm....a Roman Legion like army....that....that would be fun.

Opens up some conversions for 28mm Ancients too. I will have to give it some thought, but I like the idea of switching out an FOC slot for extra fortifications (made possible by having an Engineer in the army?)

**Slaanesh-Devotee**

Obviously it couldn't be one hundred prevent Roman legion, but at least a sci fi twist on the Romans. Having the engineer allow the trading of FOC slots could be one way to do that. I worried that having up to six bastions would be stretching the bounds of credibility though. The idea would be that this race builds the fortifications just before the battle, which they are uniquely good at. That's why later on I suggested new fortifications that are selectable units for them

**Orkimedes1000**

Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
Obviously it couldn't be one hundred prevent Roman legion, but at least a sci fi twist on the Romans. Having the engineer allow the trading of FOC slots could be one way to do that. I worried that having up to six bastions would be stretching the bounds of credibility though. The idea would be that this race builds the fortifications just before the battle, which they are uniquely good at. That's why later on I suggested new fortifications that are selectable units for them

What comes to mind is that this "new race" wouldn't be too Disimilar to Tyranids or other Xenos (it'd be cool to see a defensive Xenos Race beside Tau). however it'd be easier to just give back the rules for Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists.
(which was they gained a better cover save or something....i'll dig through my old chaos codex 4th edition i think it was, later and update any mistakes)

as this idea, not to be rude or anything.... but isn't actually new or a new idea, several armies already are into building fortifications ie Iron Warriors or Imperial Fists.

however if there was an new army based on this i offer this to counter my potentially negative response. here goes:

the army is too focussed on setting up defence of the perimeter, they may not choose transports/this army is too busy preparing they left them in the mechanic's workshop.

or

Units gaining benefit from fortification's may not embark in transports. (including chimera's or Valks for instance replace chimera with XX name instead, example only. ie cannot embark in/on ground/sea or air based transport)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, I would imagine the unit summary would look something like:
HQ -
Household Lord -
Bodyguard an extra heavy weapon and may have carapace equiv armour save and/or special weapon (either or an extra heavy/special ie +1 extra option, not one extra of each)
Engineer (as a squad or able to split up like Heralds?)

Troops-
Squad with Combat Shields- gains 5+ cover save when in the open (ie not in cover) melee instead of ranged (or a 25% mix of options)
Gun Squad- just like Combat shield unit +1 T against small arms fire, instead of 5+ cover save. ranged instead of melee (or a 25% mix of options)

What sort of transports might suit this army? none. they are too busy preparing for battle. or those making use of Fortification rules or Cover deemed Heavy ie fortifications, may not use any form of transport. squads without a "combat shield", may use transports as per normal (assuming of course there isn't a 0-1 on a tank based choice, if there is the squad may be transported if the vehicle has the rule transport in it's description as per normal rules. if a total exclusion is in place then they may not embark in/on transports much like the rest of the "army/force").

Elites-
Squad with Storm Shields and Power Lances- these guys need either infiltrate or deepstrike. unlike terminators these guys would suffer from less accurate teleportation.
Sappers: see below*

Lighter Fortifications that can be used to funnel enemy. (these could be A-typical battle bunker, see BRB for more details)
Razor Wire Sections, Ammo Dumps, Tank Traps, Defence Lines, etc. these nominally are already included as benefits to all existing armies, however to Counter that give a +1 Cover save benefit to units that do not have access to Fortifications, which will allow for reasonable fluff, ie they are defensive, rather than offensive, or as i have noted in another thread (similar to this one in fact) +1 T against small arms fire.

Fast Attack- this goes against the theme. sorry no fast attack units are allowed. this may seem strict, however it stays within the theme. any FA choice is replaced with +2 HS unit choices/selection, & +1 Elites choice. it may be an extra "A-typical" bunker, or it could be any other Elites choice thought up. (i'll leave that up to you)

Biker Auxilleries- these could only work if they operated in a similar fashion to SM attack bikes. if mounted a heavy or special weapon, then 0-1 unit choice of Bike Aux's, counted as HS)

*Sappers- these could replace the need for fast attack and/or as a Elites unit choice/selection. their role would be to sneek about causing destruction. they gain "model counts as if the game is being fought with night fighting rules, even if that isn't the case". so it makes them harder to hit (smaller teams operating behind enemies lines or in hostile environment would be less of a percieved threat, it'd take more focussed firepower to detroy these hardy units)

Heavy Support
Heavy Weapon Teams- Cheaper/1+ unit choice from FOC, and a 2+ unit choice, *meaning that the army includes more units of them however the extra +2 unit choices from the FOC* could well be Artillery instead* (from the exclusion of fast attack options, completely optional, though recommended, or even out options by adding +1 to each: elite, troop, heavy support)

Artillery- also a 1+ choice from FOC otherwise per normal rules (see different codex for details)

Heavier Bunker style Fortifications. Small Gunposts, Defence Lines with Emplaced Weapons, etc.

Some form of tank? no. unless it is some form of Artillery ie Balislisk.... or only in the circumstance of taking allies. or a 0-1 option. the idea is that they favor defense and through sheer dertmination of elite skilled footslogging infantry, and weapons specialists. mobile armour seems to add mobility in an army which appears to gain benefit solely from static gun-lines and siege warfare. tanks would remove options rather than include more. it would make them less tactical, however IF/IW although have rhino's etc prefer to remain static, as to gain maximum benefit from the sheer ammount of firepower they can bring to the fore.

Racial Benefits:
the unprecendented use of fortifications. each unit of basic troops or elites gain +1 T from small arms fire while in cover, and they recieve a 6+ in no cover.
headquarters units may field an extra heavy weapon and may have carapace equiv armour save. as well as bonus's listed above.
the HS choices are cheaper and more in number (ie you get 5 choices instead of 3)

Negative Racial Benefit:
the army is extremely static as such consequence is no transports, flying transports or combat tanks beside the 0-1 option may be included. tactically challenged.

these are just some idea's which you can use or modify for your new "race" or faction.

**Slaanesh-Devotee**

Huh, I would have thought it was quite different to Tyranids, though I can definitely see the similarities to others. As to giving back rules for Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists... Well, yes, they are Seige Specialists, but that's actually a different focus from an army reflecting the engineering side of the Roman Legions. I really don't see a need for more types of Marines at the moment, but a new Xenos could be interesting. You are right, other armies are said to be Fortification fans, but none of them actually have more options for Fortifications than anyone else. They get, as you say, bonus cover saves or similar. I was hoping that the 'Extra Fortifications' angle would create enough of a point of difference to began a new army from.

Your ideas for armies focussed on setting up their perimeter and being caught by surprise sound interesting for new Missions, but aren't quite what I am meaning by my thoughts here. The Romans were a very aggressive army and they attacked a lot of other peoples living around Europe at the time. What I find interesting about them is that they would build walls on to battlefield the night before they fought their battles. What I would like to represent is this rapid, skilled, offensive battlefield engineering.

Simply forgoing Transports is one way to take things. I'm not sure if you mean there are none in the army, or just very restricted units that can get them.

I like your idea for splitting troops into a Combat squad and a Gun squad. I am a fan of simple variant options defining units. I also like the idea for Bodyguards to have heavier armour.
I'm not sure about the Cover Save in the open, or the +1 T vs Small Arms. I can see where you are coming from, but I feel they are just there because you thought it would help with survivability. I would prefer to think about what a Roman Legion looked like and think if there is a way we can reflect that to make the army viable.

Again, I'm not sure the Elite Squad should get Deep Strike. Why would they have that rule? Again, it seems like you are giving them a rule you think would make them work better, but haven't thought about what that would reflect.

I see your point about Fortifications nominally being used by everyone. However, most people wouldn't be able to buy extra pieces like this army would, and place them where they wanted. Still, it is a valid concern. I was thinking about following the Avian Xenos route earlier today and wondered if making their weaponry focused on Sonic weapons would be good, given that birds are so full of song. If we did that, we could give them basic weapons with Ignore Cover, which would mean that the Fortifications they set up only benefit themselves. Obviously that would be a big call to make, especially for troop choice weapons...

I can't imagine having no Fast Attack at all. This is an offensive army, just one that operates very different to normal. I believe the old Iron Warriors rule allowed 2 FA slots to be used by 1 HS instead, or something similar? I suppose something similar could be considered. However, Fast Attack doesn't have to mean racing around the battlefield. Even the Sapper unit could fit into this slot, given that they appear advanced up the field and therefore can get into the attack faster.

I think you make a good point about a Biker squad being more like a SM Attack Bike, with a large mounted weapon.

I don't know if Sappers should have Shrouded entirely. Perhaps there is some sort of buff they could receive to stay alive longer. If we went with Avian Xenos, they could have dull and camouflaged plumage, giving them Stealth, which is a +1 Cover Save.

I think what you are trying to say about the weapons teams would be something like "You may purchase up to five heavy weapons teams and two artillery teams for each Weapons Emplacement choice. These do not have to be deployed together and operate as individual units."

I think you are right that reflecting the Roman Legion should be focussing on the footslogging infantry, marching forward, taking a beating but not stopping until they can close and crush their enemy. It would be nice to have a vehicle for the army, but until something jumps out as being a perfect choice, I'll skip it. However, bear in mind that this is not meant to be a gunline in the normal sense.

Thanks for the copious amount of ideas!

I also thought that the units could be named after birds. Imperials translated the names the Xenos give themselves, and found they meant types of animals, vaguely similar to various creatures known from Terra.

Eagles - Elite Units
Hawks - Troops type 1
Falcons - Troops type 2
Cuckoos- Sappers

Etc

**Barrywise**

Heh, you could totally use a bunch of different models with this idea, the least of which would be making Cataphracti Terminators looking even more roman than they already do, I'm sure you could also use some fantasy models for this, Rough Riders are also possible for their cavalry.

It would be very cool if depending on the formation you set them up in you get different bonuses, maybe having scattered: "when models in a unit are >1" gain cover save against templates and blasts, >.5 but <1 get an organized charge bonus and get an extra attack on the charge, <.5 and they get a bonus against shooting attacks, not sure about blasts though, maybe a "deny the witch" kinda thing

**Orkimedes1000**

Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
Huh, I would have thought it was quite different to Tyranids, though I can definitely see the similarities to others. As to giving back rules for Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists... Well, yes, they are Seige Specialists, but that's actually a different focus from an army reflecting the engineering side of the Roman Legions. I really don't see a need for more types of Marines at the moment, but a new Xenos could be interesting. You are right, other armies are said to be Fortification fans, but none of them actually have more options for Fortifications than anyone else. They get, as you say, bonus cover saves or similar. I was hoping that the 'Extra Fortifications' angle would create enough of a point of difference to began a new army from.

Your ideas for armies focussed on setting up their perimeter and being caught by surprise sound interesting for new Missions, but aren't quite what I am meaning by my thoughts here. The Romans were a very aggressive army and they attacked a lot of other peoples living around Europe at the time. What I find interesting about them is that they would build walls on to battlefield the night before they fought their battles. What I would like to represent is this rapid, skilled, offensive battlefield engineering.

Simply forgoing Transports is one way to take things. I'm not sure if you mean there are none in the army, or just very restricted units that can get them.

I like your idea for splitting troops into a Combat squad and a Gun squad. I am a fan of simple variant options defining units. I also like the idea for Bodyguards to have heavier armour.
I'm not sure about the Cover Save in the open, or the +1 T vs Small Arms. I can see where you are coming from, but I feel they are just there because you thought it would help with survivability. I would prefer to think about what a Roman Legion looked like and think if there is a way we can reflect that to make the army viable.

Again, I'm not sure the Elite Squad should get Deep Strike. Why would they have that rule? Again, it seems like you are giving them a rule you think would make them work better, but haven't thought about what that would reflect.

I see your point about Fortifications nominally being used by everyone. However, most people wouldn't be able to buy extra pieces like this army would, and place them where they wanted. Still, it is a valid concern. I was thinking about following the Avian Xenos route earlier today and wondered if making their weaponry focused on Sonic weapons would be good, given that birds are so full of song. If we did that, we could give them basic weapons with Ignore Cover, which would mean that the Fortifications they set up only benefit themselves. Obviously that would be a big call to make, especially for troop choice weapons...

I can't imagine having no Fast Attack at all. This is an offensive army, just one that operates very different to normal. I believe the old Iron Warriors rule allowed 2 FA slots to be used by 1 HS instead, or something similar? I suppose something similar could be considered. However, Fast Attack doesn't have to mean racing around the battlefield. Even the Sapper unit could fit into this slot, given that they appear advanced up the field and therefore can get into the attack faster.

I think you make a good point about a Biker squad being more like a SM Attack Bike, with a large mounted weapon.

I don't know if Sappers should have Shrouded entirely. Perhaps there is some sort of buff they could receive to stay alive longer. If we went with Avian Xenos, they could have dull and camouflaged plumage, giving them Stealth, which is a +1 Cover Save.

I think what you are trying to say about the weapons teams would be something like "You may purchase up to five heavy weapons teams and two artillery teams for each Weapons Emplacement choice. These do not have to be deployed together and operate as individual units."

I think you are right that reflecting the Roman Legion should be focussing on the footslogging infantry, marching forward, taking a beating but not stopping until they can close and crush their enemy. It would be nice to have a vehicle for the army, but until something jumps out as being a perfect choice, I'll skip it. However, bear in mind that this is not meant to be a gunline in the normal sense.

Thanks for the copious amount of ideas!

I also thought that the units could be named after birds. Imperials translated the names the Xenos give themselves, and found they meant types of animals, vaguely similar to various creatures known from Terra.

Eagles - Elite Units
Hawks - Troops type 1
Falcons - Troops type 2
Cuckoos- Sappers

Etc

A defense by attack route. i like the idea of a avian race. in which case, if your not opposed to flying transports or winged infantry/jump packed, then the idea similar to Elysian Drop troops but an Xenos race.

the vechicle could be a giant bird of prey (mech or organic is cool) and the fast attack could be avian xenos riding warhawks [wood elf range maybe].

a gun squad and a shield squad [one protects the other, a symbiotic relationship. similar yet not so similar to a hive node connection re: tyranids, ie shield unit provides mobile shroud to the gun unit following behind or similar to a KFF effect for x amount of inches which affects certain units within a certain distance. both units would be treated as jump infantry.

have another unit called the flyboys or something (totally unoriginal i know, example only), who deploy from a flying transport.

the rest of the army is ground based. have no more than 25% (1/4) of your army being mobile. have maybe atleast 50% heavy support or heavy weapon team equiv. include a random tank [if a design could be worked on, which i am sure it could, a modded valk for the "flyboys" lol and maybe a modded eldar grav tank for the ground pounder "tank"]

Fortifications: i like your idea. of only your side gaining benefit from it. it could also be counted as impassable or difficult ground for the enemy, sort of like mobile pre-battle pre constructed avian war towers, the units within gain cover but the enemy if it has a unit try to enter it it suffer x str x attacks. saves as normal. units not "Avian generic name" ending their turn are "counts as destroyed".

Deepstrike: maybe the sappers instead. represented by tunneling or similar. or scout/infiltrator. some form of buff. i imagine these would be teams of 3-6 per squad, working similar to hws or sws [special weapons squad] of having x3 specialists and x3 basic infantry.

a quick summary of theme is: the avian bird race from planet X, their tactics are similar to legends of Terra, in particular Ancient romans. half the army is winged [jump pack] while atleast half their number are ground based and heavily into fortifying the battle ground before and especially after [vultures circling the aftermath of a battle, re: kroot] and no more than a third are heavy weapons some of them being tanks or vehicles [grav tank??] . they favor a strong attack on the defensive side, however are known to launch strong defensive assaults. they favor wars of attrition, siege warfare hit and run [at limited success, yet better than their hated Tau rivals]

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mobile* before battle. ingame they are immobile. "sort of like mobile pre-battle pre constructed avian war tower"

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Barrywise wrote:
Heh, you could totally use a bunch of different models with this idea, the least of which would be making Cataphracti Terminators looking even more roman than they already do, I'm sure you could also use some fantasy models for this, Rough Riders are also possible for their cavalry.

It would be very cool if depending on the formation you set them up in you get different bonuses, maybe having scattered: "when models in a unit are >1" gain cover save against templates and blasts, >.5 but <1 get an organized charge bonus and get an extra attack on the charge, <.5 and they get a bonus against shooting attacks, not sure about blasts though, maybe a "deny the witch" kinda thing

Similiar to Kroot Calvary. but use cold ones with feathers [maybe??] and using mix of Empire whfb units with IG with kroot hound heads, give some wing stubs as well, or make the beast have wings. the plague drone comes to mind here. and using a bird like heads on the cold ones. give them power lances and make an option to make them shielded.

**p_gray99**

I think that any kind of bird-like race would probably shun defences for a more mobile form of battle.

I think it's a cool idea, but it'd be hard to fit it in with the current 40k fluff (though not impossible) and there would need to be some way of making sure there were plenty of infantry around. Those other units sound cool, but it could easily become an army with a few basic units and then loads of super-cool other guys.

With the banners, perhaps have the basic guys low leadership e.g. 7, but then have a squad banner for +1 ld and a whole army banner for +1 ld?
Centurions were also far more fearless than the average troops: In bad battles, there would be about 1/10 of the losses being centurions because they'd be the only ones not to run away.

**Slaanesh-Devotee**

I guess coming from New Zealand it's easy for me to picture a race that came from birds not having to be fliers. It would be easy enough to map this concept back onto a dwarf-like Xenos, but I'd prefer not to. Perhaps a reptilian race instead? I kinda like the birds though.

After all, humans don't have a tree warfare tendency do they? But they are apes?

When you say it could become an army with a few basics and lots of elites, isn't that how most army lists look these days? ;P

That is a good idea for the banners. It would reflect the honour and responsibility of bearing a holy family relic into battle quite well.

**p_gray99**

Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
I guess coming from New Zealand it's easy for me to picture a race that came from birds not having to be fliers. It would be easy enough to map this concept back onto a dwarf-like Xenos, but I'd prefer not to. Perhaps a reptilian race instead? I kinda like the birds though.

After all, humans don't have a tree warfare tendency do they? But they are apes?

When you say it could become an army with a few basics and lots of elites, isn't that how most army lists look these days? ;P

That is a good idea for the banners. It would reflect the honour and responsibility of bearing a holy family relic into battle quite well.

For birds, I agree that they could easily have a defensive strategy and not be very mobile, but it's simply that most people wouldn't see it that way.
Reptiles sound a little too nid-like, though it could work if pushed in completely the opposite direction. Perhaps have the sslyth involved?
Or alternatively perhaps something covered in fur? Despite the number of mammal-like creatures, there seem to be very few furry creatures...
I suppose birds could work as well, though they could probably do with some drastic changes to the anatomy (how would they fire their guns?) and make it clear they've lost their wings a long time ago, etc.

As for the elites vs. troops, all codexes could do with this being sorted out IMO, but particularly an army based on Romans simply wouldn't work without the troops being at least a clear majority. Perhaps make them cheap for what they do and especially effective when working in large numbers or something?

**Orkimedes1000**

Some links for useful aesthetics. the following are fairly varied

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Tarellians

[an ally or an mercenary faction fights for tau, similar to lizardmen saurus]

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Xenos6.jpg [picture includes several races no names]

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=16242 [pertains to hrud, slann and other races. not too sure if pictures]

http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1336/13/1336134732236.jpg [four legged demon thing...looks cool you might be able to use it maybe??]

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Tau_Empire?file=Kroot2.jpg [kroot]

**Scipio Africanus**

Just a note, kiddies - A roman Century is 80 men.

Oh, sorry. maybe that's not as relevant as I thought.

point still stands.

Some ideas for special rules:

Testudo: Either a rhino-equivalent transport or a special rule for grunts:

Maybe a 2+ armour on the "Front and flank", but no armour on the rear.
They might also fight unwieldly.

Gladiators will be cool to write rules for.

Am I jumping at the roman theme I skimmed over?

**p_gray99**

I thought it was 81 including the centurion? I could be wrong, though...

I also doubt that you'd get an army of anywhere near that. A horde army isn't the kind of thing that the Romans would go for; they actually cared about the number of casualties.

**Scipio Africanus**

p_gray99 wrote:
I thought it was 81 including the centurion? I could be wrong, though...

I also doubt that you'd get an army of anywhere near that. A horde army isn't the kind of thing that the Romans would go for; they actually cared about the number of casualties.

To the first thing, very correct - We usually assume that some sort of commander is assumed in formation, so he is sometimes not mentioned. I choose not to mention him.

Another example of this is Leonidas and his "300 spartans", where they leave out an entire city's army and leonidas' officers.

To the second, you're incorrect. Except when it made the romans look bad. (Teutoburg, the Eagle of the ninth and Crassus' Parthian campaign.)

**washout77**

^Also, because the battlefield is a constantly adapting thing and the scope of Romes armies, I find that it would be near impossible to hold all units to full 80/81 member strength at all times on the front

Excuse me if this idea is repeated, I skimmed over the thread but I didn't read everything word for word.

Have you thought about keeping a "dedicated transport" option but instead making that "transport" a bunker/fortification of some sort? Like, something stronger than an ADL but weaker than a Bastion.

**Slaanesh-Devotee**

Tetsudo option - Steal the Dark Angels 'Fortress of Shields' rule and give troop unit Combat Shields to use it. Not a huge rule, and perhaps they could use more, but I always think erring on the weaker side makes for amore interesting choices and armies.

The idea of making the Dedicated Transport a bunker is very good, it really suits the emphasis of Fortifications that I was going for! Especially as that means the unit that bought it could deploy it, not use it and then someone else could Embark in the first turn...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and a Gladiator unit sounds interesting, good way to expand upon the initial Roman idea. Any thoughts as to how they might work? We already have a few units that follow a Gladiatorial theme in 40k, any ideas we can steal?

**Barrywise**

The most gladiatorial unit I can think of are the DE wyches so may be give the option of taking different weapon sets just like they had in the colloseum, so you could steal the Impaler and net that they use but maybe make it a bit better, give it a 6" throw that can be used to stop d3 models from firing overwatch, and have reduced WS and I for that round of combat.

So there's a crud load of different gladiator types on Wikipedia, you could certainly have fun making a bunch of different units with those ideas, I'll post tomorrow after I read some more on it

**Slaanesh-Devotee**

I'd be wary of having too many different rules within one unit, but if you can think of simple enough bonuses for each weapon type, then each weapon can be an upgrade to the unit. For example, using the net reduces enemy Overwatch by D3 sounds great, make it an 'One model per five models' weapon upgrade and we're golden.

**Dakkamite**

Lol, as I was reading the first post and all that stuff about being a "fortifications based army" I totally thought of Dwarves or Squats

I like the idea of Sonic Weapons which ignore cover - it makes total sense that a race that uses a lot of fortifications would generally use a lot of cover-busting weapons as well.

But since fortress of shields pretty much sums up my idea for your army, the main thing I'm here to do is to challenge you to a game against your new army once you've got some units all figured out! I'm also in Auckland and I'm more than open to playing with experimental rules and units.

**rahxephon**

Ahh auckand... Well in terms of a fortification style army I think it would be difficult to create one which is even with other races. Some have a harder time than others dealing with them.
Anyway, what I think would be cool is if could get fortifications you deep striked in. So you could have something like any fortifications you get deploy with the army as usual but you can pay more to have it arrive later (like space marines or IG in DoW dropping buildings in). Could almost be a reversal of a drop pod, it comes in with no one inside, then you can put guys inside it once its down.
Difficulty with fortifications though is the opponent can use it against you. So perhaps these romans have countermeasures and their fortifications are booby trapped. Just like scout bikers cluster mines but only work against opponents.

edit; wait I got it, engineers, defensive, something about a different type of race...

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1630044a

Jokaero!

and bracelet lascannons for all!.. jks

**Barrywise**

"Fighters travelled in groups of 8, and each octet was sometimes assigned a mule. The mule carried a variety of equipment and supplies," ~ from Wikipedia.

You might have monkeys, but we have war mules

You could also consider the use of Velites skirmishers, who would retreat through their own lines to safety

Ooh this is interesting, the use of pilas (thrown spears) was not only to damage enemy units but to also stick into and weigh down the enemies shield, rending it unusable, possible I or Armor save drop?

**Slaanesh-Devotee**

Dakkamite: Geez, a gauntlet has been thrown down! I'll have to really think about how this stuff might work now... Yeah, I thought the idea would match up to Dwarves actually really well, but then decided that Squats just don't want o come back for some reason...

Velites skirmishers and a closer look at Pilas will be next on my list, cheers Barry.

**Dakkamite**

I'm just not keen on the name "Squats" really, but other than that, a Roman-esk Dwarf force could be really cool. Forts, minefields, big guns and tanks, and very slow, very hardy troops. Deep strikers emerging from underground, and alien auxiliaries much like the Tau... perhaps it could simply be a codex for those so-called 'dwarf allies' the Tau can get - their name eludes me right now - that could be battle brothers with Tau, Kroot, and so forth.

**Barrywise**

You bring up a good idea of allying with tau, if you consider the skirmishers to be Tau with Darkstrider, maybe make a rule that allows them to take the charge(within a certain distance) even if Darkstrider doesn't get out of range, kinda like the beasts of nurgle but only taking the charge for certain allies

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alright so let me just go over the different, usable gladiator ideas.

Andabata: Fought blind...crazy romans

Arbelas: pretty funny looking crescent shaped blade on one arm, google images are very good, some russian guy has even made a model

Bestiarius: beast fighter, maybe give monster hunter

Bustuarius: gladiators who fought in honor of someone who died, maybe after the general dies, all gladiators become this for one turn?

Cestus: fist-fighter/ boxer

Dimachaerus: fought using two swords, one in each hand

Equites: horsemen who would often throw their spear after using their speed to get behind an opponent and would then duke it out on foot with a gladius

Essedarius: chariots, 'nough said

Hoplomachus: had a small shield, a gladius and a throwing spear

Lanista: Gladiator pimp/ vendor of human flesh

Laquearius: Lasso's opponents and then stabs them with a dagger

Lorarius: whips guys to fight, possible morale booster?

Murmillo: Fish on helmet with a larger oblong shield and a gladius

Paegniarius: an entertainer who would perform in "burlesque duels" maybe make a rule that he can challenge but doesnt take damage or has a high invuln while in challenge, maybe even the possibility to run from actual combat to deny kill point?

Retiarius: Trident, Dagger and a net

Rudiarius: technically a retired gladiator, however this guy chose to go back into the arena and keep fighting, pretty much a veteran gladiator and could probably make up an elite slot if wanted

Sagittarius: Mounted horse archer

Samnite: heavily armed, had a rectangular shield, short sword, a plumed helmet and various forms of body armor.

Secutor: highly protective helmet with small eye holes, shield and sword included, usually pitted against retiarius

sorry for the wall of text, there's lots of pictures and miniatures that people have made if you google search the names, not sure how you want to run these, but just throwing the ideas out there

-Barry

**Slaanesh-Devotee**

Thanks Barry, there's a couple of ideas in there that I think could help make an interesting elite unit.

Dakkamite: I can very easily seen most of the rules I'm looking at here working with Dwarf-esque Scifi models. Maybe I'll include a little note mentioning that. At the moment I'm thinking of writing up a document formalising some of my ideas

**Dakkamite**

I finally remembered the name of the faction I was referring to. The Demiurg. As far as I know they currently have no models or rules and not too much elaboration in the fluff, but they're suppost to be Dwarf-like and have been rumoured to be possbile future replacement Squats.

As for gladiator special abilities, I looked through the Universal Special Rules and the two DE codexes to find some ideas, plus added a few of my own!

Stats:
-Very high INT
-WS 4 or 5
-Invulnerable armour save in close combat only
-Poisoned Weapons

In challenges, recieves one or more of the following bonuses
-Feel No Pain
-Re-rolled hits or wounds
-Power Weapon

Has one or more of these enhanced rules regarding challenges
-Choose who to challenge
-Can challenge non-characters
-Challenge multiple models at once
-Challenge is fully resolved all at once (fight multiple rounds between the two fighters until one dies)
-Gets stronger, heals wounds etc with each kill or each victorious challenge (similar to Power from Pain)

Special Wargear
-Can increase (double?) attacks whilst giving some penalty
-Pulls a model from the rear of a combat to the front
-Reduce opponents attacks by X or to X
-Adds d6 attacks instead of +1
-Ignore armour on to-hit rolls of X
-Instant death on to-hit roll of X
-a wound causes target to reduce some stat until the end of the next assault phase

Has any of the following USRs
-Strikedown, Smash, Shred, Rending, Rampage, Rage, Preferred Enermy, Poisoned, Monster Hunter, Master crafted Weapons, It will not die, Furious Charge, Hatred, Hammer of Wrath, Force Weapons, Fearless, Fleshbane, Fleet, Concussive, Counterattack, Blind, Adamantium Will, Armourbane

Misc Special Rules
-Impetuous, must find characters and assault them, perhaps has to move to nearest enermy or must challenge each combat round
-If rolls doubles, triples, etc on any of its to-hit dice, some effect happens

Edit: Completely unrelated to this thread, I'm now building some 40k Dwarves that might be good stand-in models for stuff in this custom dex? Just little guys with big clubs and hilariously oversized guns.

**Slaanesh-Devotee**

Army History

Spoiler:

Scant light years to the galactic north of the burgeoning Tau empire, long forgotten Imperial colony worlds have began to return to the fold of the Imperium’s guiding light. The increased presence of fleets in the area meant that various worlds were reconnected to their masters in Terra. Word began to drift back of a new Xenos. At this stage they have not been given a specific threat rating y any members of the Inquisition, and as such they should be deemed highly dangerous. The following is derived from rumours and recording passed back from the colonies.

The Avis (Pronounced AH-viss) are a slightly built race of creatures, with a largely humanoid form. They have two arms and two legs, with roughly the same built as an athletic human. However, they have clearly developed from birds rather than mammals as humans did. Their skin is covered in a very thin layer of tiny feathers that seems to provide them with a small amount of warmth and protection from temperature. However, these feathers are largely vestigial and the Avis wear a variety of items of clothing. Respect and Authority appear to be reflected physically in the Avis, with the crst of feathers along their head growing thicker, larger and more colourful the higher they rise in the ranks of their armed forces or society. Their faces have forward facing intelligent eyes above a large beak. Their beaks are sharp and serrated near the front but widen in the back to allow for an omnivorous diet. Their arms may have at one point been wings, but now are limbs remarkably similar to the other races of the galaxy.

Some records seem to imply that the Avis have come from a species of bird that built elaborate structures in the past. They built strong nests to protect their mates and eggs, they built amphitheatres to improve the range of their territorial or mating calls and they even began to build traps for prey. Over time their intelligence and skill allowed them to become a dominant form of life on their homeworld and they slowly lost the ability to fly, as concurrently they improved their technology.

Like most Terran birds, the Avis are constantly aware of their surroundings. They appear twitchy and nervous to humans as their eyes are ever in motion, tilting their heads to scan the horizon at random. This awareness allows them to react faster than most humans, but also makes the Avis somewhat jumpy. They are likely to move away from danger when a human might consider themselves able to deal with the challenge.

Avis society is built around multiple households, with great individuals leading each. At any one time there is a single individual who is ‘in charge’ of the Avis civilisation, but the particular individual can change rapidly. The households are all constantly vying for position, influence and power; generally avoiding open combat against other households, but not always. Usually they will attempt to undermine a rival’s influence on the soldiers and citizenry by spreading rumours or setting up humiliating situations, or possibly employing poison or assassins. The lower the prestige of the household, the more chance of direct violence becoming part of the struggle.

The lineage of each of the Avis is hugely important, as they use their bloodlines to define so much of their authority. Their dead are honoured by being entombed near their houses, deathmasks are taken of their faces, and their bones are sometimes even kept on display. The Worthy Ancestors of each House are considered to be benefactor spirits that watch over their descendants.

With alliances between households so important in such a system, marriages are an elaborate formal affair for the Avis, signifying a great deal of negotiation and arrangements before houses are formally linked. Sometimes these marriages turn sour and households fall to fighting again. However, younger sons of the houses stand to inherit nothing and as such are largely useless for the formal agreements that Avis marriages are. These youth tend to grow cocky and aggressive in their attempts to prove their worth. Early in the development of the Avis, these males would leave the small communities that were beginning to appear and live either alone or with others in their situation. They would fight each other or ransack weaker villages in bloodier and more random attempts to earn honour. A formal fighting arena became a traditional way of focusing these youth into a more productive life. Now the fighting arenas, known as Gallum Arenas, are a legitimate source of power and honour for these youth, also called Gallum; who still sometimes fight to the death before a cheering audience.

The early skill with building that led the Avis to become a dominant species has continued through the growth of their civilisation. They are exceptional builders, able to construct large, sturdy buildings in a fraction of the time it would take the Imperium to build something of equivalent worth. This is where they have come into contact with the Imperial Colonies, with some Colonists becoming traitors to the Imperium and employing Avis to build their Power Cyclers and Habitats while waiting for deliveries of Imperial supplies. One Colony succumbed to the aliens after a wait of a mere 98 years! This skill transfers to the battlefield, where the Avis are renowned for building horrific defences in a matter of days. Armies will advance through what they expect to be fairly clear ground in order to launch an attack on the Avis, only to find the landscape torn with Trenches, littered with Razorwire and Tank Traps and studded with Bunkers and Strongpoints. These structures defend the well-armoured Avis soldiers and funnel the enemy to precisely where the Avis want them.

It appears that the Avis have only recently begun colonising other worlds themselves and their spread is still tiny compared to any of the other space-faring races in the galaxy. The Tau have begun to try to convert the Avis to their Greater Good, and some Avis have joined them. However, the Great Houses are too focused on their own machinations to ever seriously consider such an alliance permanently.

Army Bestiary

Spoiler:

Army Armoury

Spoiler:

Army List

Spoiler:

Notes:
I am still looking at the option of making a big strong slow transport for these guys, with not a huge amount of weapons. It would be called the Tetsudo.
Clearly, I haven’t actually managed to think of points values for a lot of this. But, overall, what do you think? What do you think about the background of the race as a whole? What about each unit type? Are my rules too complicated? Too simple?

I originally started thinking about this ‘Extra Fortified’ army style as a reflection of Ancient Roman engineering, and then tried to think of a new type of Xenos to use. Obviously a lot of these rules would match quite well to a Space Dwarf/Squat/Demiurge-style list, but I decided that there are enough of those Fan Codices out there! If you were to use this armylsit for that, I would change the Statline to T4, I3, Ld7 and add Adamantium Will to every model (And get rid of the Auspex, obviously!)

**rahxephon**

Like the warlord table, I think the HQ could work well similar to a CCS from IG. So you have your basic Dux and 2 voltur's, then on top of that you can add on an auspex or a aedifactor. Alternatively you could have the others instead of a the Dux so you could make a psycher or techy based CCS.

Going through;
Dux; +1Ld, default carapace, 30pts
Aedifactor; -1BS, -1I, 40pts
Auspex; -1I, +1Ld, 50pts
Voltur; -1I, 15pts each with some sort of special look out sir, maybe +1 to its rolls.

Falco; min size 10, for every 10 models you may take a cantus cannon for 10pts and it requires 2 to man it, no combat shields, champion +1Ld & +1A, 65pts. Add for 6pts each.
Accipiter; min size 10, no flak armour, have fleet, 1 in 10 may take a cantus burst cannon? S4 Ap5 template for 5pts, Champion +1Ld & +1A, 45pts. Add for 4pts each.

Aquila; basic guy +1Ld & +1A, flakk armour, have fleet, 4++shield, energy javelin S=user+1 Ap5, rending (Ap- in CC but still rending), one in 5 can take a heat lance: S8 Ap1 melta/unwieldy CCW for 5pts each? or a cantus burst cannon 5pts. Basic unit of 5 = 60pts, add for 12pts each.
Gallum; any guy can take a powerstave: S=user+2 Ap 3 double handed CCW +10pts, or heat lance 5pts, or cantus burst cannon +10pts (since any can take it). Basic Unit of 5 = 40pts, add for 7pts.
Hard to say for other gallum wargear. Maybe tangle net just does -1A to models in base contact like an ork grabba stick. The overwatch thing doesn't quite seem to fit in for me.

Cuculi; these guys seem a little crazy so basic unit of 5 = 110pts, add for 20pts.
Auxiliaries; 25pts each maybe even a bit more. Its just that power axe.

Gunnery Squad; basic 25pts. For cantus battery, range 48" +20pts, energy ballista S7 Ap2 +25pts, bombard +35pts

Overall I think its quite cool, most of the things I'd change are just a few stat things. But being a predominantly melee army, it would be quite a huge horde. As in hundreds of Accipiters for example. However if there was one thing I would do playing this army is spam purely Falco's. They virtually have bolters that ignore cover, so I would suggest making them Ap6 and just giving -1 to cover saves like that warlord trait (but the 2 are combinable). For their points cost I did it with that change in mind.
The Gallum would be a bit tricky to do with all those different weapons without it becoming tedious as you define whos got what etc... rather than have the upgrades as a by model basis, why not make it into a discipline so on deployment its decided (sort of like Penal Legions). So you could have
1) Retiarius, the unit have tridents and nets. Any enemy models in base contact with the unit get -1A (to 1 minimum) and the unit gets rending.
2) Dimachaerus, unit has shred
3) Andabata, What you said with the clawed gauntlets
what ever others...

In terms of rules, its good. And as far as I'm concerned, simpler ones work a lot better on the table.

edit; left out I think gallum should have fleet as well.

**p_gray99**

Overall, it looks great! The only problem is it seems a little too inventive to fit in with the GW stuff...

**Dast**

Hello,

I really like it! I love how you wove the "they build fortifications" into their evolutionary history with the nests and amphitheaters.

Minor things I would change:
-I would suggest their ancestors never flew, this rams home the point that, being aliens they are not birds. Instead they are an alien life form that so happens to be roughly analogous to Terrestrial birds.

-I think it would be cool if they got some "just add air" defences. Some really dense alien polymer stuff that when exposed to the atmosphere soaks it up and inflates into a wall or something.
In game terms the way I see this working would be as a special rule saying that their sappers are able to move their barricades (because they are so light).

I haven't read through everything entirely yet, I take a closer look tomorrow.

Dast