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wormwoode wrote:
The bottom line is that the 100 (or however many) copies the sell at Gencon are already sold. That's the deal that they clearly made with their backers- You get priority over retail. The first copies are yours.

Their crap planning and bad estimates of timelines are not the backers fault in any way. They are panicked about getting the product to the market as quickly as possible. Fine, take preorders at Gencon and deliver as soon as all backer pledges are fulfilled. Easy. Cheap. Reasonable.

You're spot on, there. There's nothing to stop them promoting the game. And get only marginally less hype than the couple hundred boxes they'll have for sale. Remember, they had a couple of hundred of the Max/Miriya exclusives last year, and what happened? They were all sold out, mostly before the general public got a chance at them (the VIP's and other stores bought significant percentages, and a decent amount just got flipped onto EBay). So, you crap on the backers, AND the public don't really get exposed anyway.

But seriously, I just can't understand the PR behind this. This was the most predictable outcome (outrage) to the most predictable solution (do we or don't we) to the most predictable problem (Gencon or backers), in the entirety of the project. And that's a pretty high bar to clear.

And that's assuming they even get any in (unless they're airfreighting, which isn't what they said, but what's their word worth now?). So there's the possibility they've crapped on their backers for NO tangible outcome. If the container gets delayed one week, they're hosed. And the optimistic timeframe they have doesn't seem to account for most of the NORMAL variations, let alone the extra stuff (storm season, west coast industrial action). So umm... yeah. Great jobs, fellahs.

If / when they are absolutely forced to realize that they'll be unable to get any product for Gencon, anyway, I wonder if they'll claim that they "reconsidered their commitment to their backers" and "decided" not to screw them. I don't wonder if they'd be shady enough or ballsy enough, that's a given. I just wonder if they do any thinking at all about their backers as anything other than a debt they'll be forced to "get around to at some point".

wormwoode wrote:
If / when they are absolutely forced to realize that they'll be unable to get any product for Gencon, anyway, I wonder if they'll claim that they "reconsidered their commitment to their backers" and "decided" not to screw them. I don't wonder if they'd be shady enough or ballsy enough, that's a given. I just wonder if they do any thinking at all about their backers as anything other than a debt they'll be forced to "get around to at some point".

"Spin" is free, it is easy to look at any given outcome and determine some kind of "win".
I expect through shear irritation they will try to get backers to write-off the Wave2 stuff. Cup half empty over here...

Rrrreported live, live, live on Network 23, where dreams come to die! Catch the wave!
(still getting used to my new avatar)

Of course they'll use that line if they don't get the shipments in time. Of course, if they don't ship out to hundreds of backers by gencon then we'll know that it is yet another lie.

As for viewing backers as a debt and nothing more, that is what they did with the Northern Gun duo of books that they crowdfunded on their site. The books were just weeks away from the printer and were delayed over a year for the first and IIRC right around two years for the second... during which time palladium had the time, money, effort, and inclination to come out with another couple of books and a half dozen of their book-style quarterly magazine. Basically, if your project was prepaid, you were at the bottom of the priority list. That same ethos has now predictably extended over to this project.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talizvar wrote:

I expect through shear irritation they will try to get backers to write-off the Wave2 stuff. Cup half empty over here...

Rrrreported live, live, live on Network 23, where dreams come to die! Catch the wave!
(still getting used to my new avatar)

Me too (getting used to your new avatar that is). I might bring back my stomping jason "I want Robotech!" avatar till gencon as well but I suspect it'll just give ammo to the ignorant folks. :( As for wave two, I suspect we'll be in for the same type of suck as they "find out" just before Gencon 2015 that they'll only have time to bring Wave 2 to the con to sell and backers will just have to understand yet again.

rigeld2 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Jesus christ, what is everyone bitching about now?

It's "bitching" to vent when PB is proven to lie to their backers? Seriously?

It was also promised that I would get those in December. No, October. No, December. No, January. No, March. No, wait - July. No, sorry - after $random_joe_off_the_street gets his copy at GenCon, despite the fact that they said - repeatedly - backers would get theirs before retail (and IMO if you're selling at retail price, it's a retail sale).

I could have told you from day one that that wasn't going to happen, between my background as an industrial engineer and experience with other kickstarters, as well as what they presented to us from the very start of the kickstarter it was a completely unrealistic date. I mean, it *might* have been realistic if all we funded was the starter box, but as soon as we got into expansion territory that went right out the window.

Yes, kickstarters have inherent risk. Thanks for the patronizing statement.
That doesn't mean it's okay to flat out lie to your backers, or that it's okay to accept almost $1.5 million and throw together some shoddy work and pretend you're good.

Where were we lied to exactly? Aside from the delivery date, which I suppose was a 'lie' though one that seems common to almost every kickstarter to the point that I am surprised when one *is* on time. Also, shoddy work? Whats shoddy? The minis look on par with what I would expect, you havent even seen them in person either, good job judging purely on some low quality photos.

No, you absolutely can. I paid ~$250 into the Sedition Wars kickstarter, getting minis for way under "retail". Look at how much those are worth now. Are you sure this kickstarter can't hit the same results?
(note: I didn't pledge to resell in any case, but the comparison given was price paid vs retail)

I didn't pledge that kickstarter, didn't strike me as being very realistic, not really familiar with how it turned out either, though I've been told the minis left a lot to be desired. As I understand it (based on what I inferred from your post), it was a post-release failure and is now priced even lower than the kickstarter due to the fact that they have to move a load of crappy product. Oh well, it happens, its entirely possible (though unlikely) that GW puts a price drop in effect on its miniatures range and the $50 miniatures you bought yesterday end up being worth $40 tomorrow. Would you be crying about that too?

Something simple: we gave them money for "product" over a year ago and other people get first crack at getting their hands on them.

Those people are giving them money for product too. Besides, you didn't pre-order or purchase, you pledged money as an investment with the understanding that you would be rewarded with stuff commensurate with your level of investment at a future date. Beyond that, its a very very limited pool of 100 people. Fun fact, 99% of the stuff you pre-order or pledge to in a kickstarter usually is sold to someone or given to them for free as a review or preview product a month or more before you get your hands on it yourself via similar limited release, you just aren't often told of it or aware of it. You're holding Palladium or Ninja Division or whomever it is to an unfair double standard, as I dont see you complaining elsewhere when others do it (and aren't transparent about it).

The quality of both products mentioned are showing "blemishes" to the "amazing" quality touted so there is some concern of "value".

The worst I've seen is the 'crayola box' missile launchers, if thats the worst of my worries then its really not that upset. They're plastic miniatures, seamlines and loss of certain details are to be expected.

At a kickstarter everything IS premature, usually only concepts can be brought forward. It is by raising money they get to make the reality. The "within the year" of the kickstarter close was the official timeline and they have extended well past that to "get it right". The critical timeline is the model development, they still have tons of time to make sure the game is right which is showing holes: there is no real excuse for that element.

I disagree, some are better prepared than others. I have backed kickstarters where everything was ready to enter production, they just needed the capital to 'press start' with their manufacturer and I received the stuff on time (that happened precisely twice, mind you, out of the 20+ kickstarters I've backed thus far), this was clearly not one of those kickstarters. I don't believe that they had any physical product to show at the time, not even prototype miniatures, and IIRC the rules were still in development. They claimed they had completed the majority of development before the kickstarter, but based on the fact that they were entirely reliant on 3d renders and concept artwork to display the product to us, it seemed pretty clear that they meant something different by 'development' than what most people would assume.

But you can only go so far with the trite statement of "buyer beware", YES Palladium has a bad track record, there was optimism that Ninja Division would smooth out those issues, we have found out that is not so. Also the unhappiness is with what we are NOT receiving, we still have Wave2 to wait for and I have not received a thing as of yet.

Again, i'm unphased, that seems pretty common with kickstarters, pretty much every miniatures based (and several non miniatures) kickstarter i've pledged is phased in such a manner. It means you get *something* sooner.

But retail is receiving the product first, developed with your money.
They are still banking on selling the product with the rules "sight unseen".
Imagine if the rules are panned as "garbage" by the critics?
How much could they command at retail then?

100 people are receiving the product 'at retail', its like an advanced/preview distribution, again, perfectly normal. If the rules are garbage, then oh well, I got a lemon and will find another way to use the minis, its the risk I accepted when I backed a kickstarter that gave me absolutely no indication as to how the game is played.

Kickstarter is just like "pre-order"

False. That is not, and has never been, the point of kickstarter. There is a section ON the Kickstarter website itself which states as much in pretty clear terminology. Just because you have misunderstood/misconstrued what a kickstarter is and how it functions doesn't change what it actually is.

Palladium pre-order: http://palladium-store.com/1001/category/Coming-Soon.html
We can find a whole new group of people who are pre-ordering Robotech Tactics so Palladium can have MOAR money.
Books: http://www.amazon.com/Popular-Pre-orders-Books/b?ie=UTF8&node=15372101
Miniatures:http://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Warhammer-40-000?N=102268+4294967192&Nu=product.repositoryId&qty=12&sorting=phl
Games: http://www.ebgames.ca/browse?nav=28-xu0,1317

Your point? They are allowed to pre-sell their own product, there is nothing in the kickstarter agreement that you entered into which indicates otherwise, and the expectation that they not be allowed to put their own product up for pre-sale until you receive yours is a ridiculous one.

What gets my knickers in a twist is that everyone is looking to get my money ahead of time with little compulsion to ensure it gets to me with some compelling benefits or "interest" on that early use of the money.

Then don't pledge Kickstarters, its that simple. It's not a pre-order platform, its a funding platform. Most things posted on that website will never become a reality unless it receives funding via Kickstarter. If you think the idea is worthy of your money, and would like to see it brought to market, you give them your money. If you don't, don't, and maybe enough other people will and it will end up becoming a thing, or maybe everybody else agrees with you and the project flounders and nothing ever comes of it. The benefit/interest is that you're ultimately getting the product that they agreed to give you for backing, often at a reduced rate. If that isn't incentive enough for you, then, again, don't pledge to a kickstarter.

The bottom line is that the 100 (or however many) copies the sell at Gencon are already sold. That's the deal that they clearly made with their backers- You get priority over retail. The first copies are yours.

Did they? I don't see that stated or implied anywhere on their page. You may have implied or inferred that yourself, but there was no obligation on their end to do so if they didn't state it.

I have a feeling that they've already blown through a stupid amount of the pledge money in stupid ways, and they feel they literally have to get some retail return in order to even finish the project. I will not be shocked to hear "wave 2" requiring some sort of bail-out to be released.

I wouldn't disagree with you. As long as I get the gak I paid for, I dont really care though.

Ah, so your complaining about complaining is rooted in ignorance. Well then.. update 125 is the spot that comes to mind easiest but it was also stated multiple times before and after it. Please in the future get a clue before you decide to jump head first into the "you guys are a bunch of whiners!" insult pool.

Oh, Update 125 you say? Released in January of this year? 6 months AFTER you had already pledged? Uh huh, okay, yeah. That wasn't originally part of the deal unless you assumed it, at one point after the fact they made that a bonus, and then at some point they felt the need to renege on that. IT HAPPENS. 100 copies pre-sold to 100 people at a convention isn't the end of the world. You will be receiving your stuff before the general public.

Chances are if they're getting 100 boxes of it shipped out to them before the main shipment arrives, then they are technically pre/early production copies anyway, customarily done as a test run of pretty much all products as the final step before a product enters production. This is to familiarize the staff with proper packaging procedures, establish workflow, etc, and often there are packaging errors, etc. as a result. Consider yourself lucky that you *aren't* getting one of those copies, as the risk of a faulty product will decrease dramatically beyond that initial run.

I think we need to stop looking at ourselves as "backers", and instead look at ourselves as "investors". PB promised us a return on our investment in the form of a game and miniatures guaranteed delivered to us before anyone got it through retail. We have paid for the product they were developing, and as I see it, they are now refusing to give us that which we paid for. To me this is something that might be actionable in a legal sense. If their update had been more apologetic and less condescending, I might not be as ticked off as I am, but since it was more smoke and mirrors, I'm not going to be nice to them anymore, and start demanding that they have my stuff for me at GenCon. All of us who are going should do the same.

 jacobus wrote:
PB promised us a return on our investment in the form of a game and miniatures guaranteed delivered to us before anyone got it through retail.

Again, no they didn't, except after the kickstarter had already been completed. You ASSUMED that that was the case up until that point.

We have paid for the product they were developing, and as I see it, they are now refusing to give us that which we paid for.

Except they aren't? They are getting it to you when they can get it to you. Honestly I keep seeing this stated and it reeks of a petulant child. Besides that, and what would piss ME off, is if they did ship to 100 backers who got to play with their nice new toys for a full month before they even got around to shipping mine out, and trust me you would too, because that is almost exactly what just happened with the All Quiet on the Martian Front kickstarter a couple weeks back, and there was much gnashing and wailing of teeth their too as a result (though definitely not anywhere near as bad as this).

(To be more precise they started shipping orders at a very low rate over a month ago, and then increased after a week or two. My kickstarter, and that of several of my friends, were amongst some of the last to go out. There were backers overseas who received their product weeks before I did, despite the fact that I live only 3 hours north of their distribution facility. In fact, I didn't actually receive my box o' goodies until the day that the game officially went on sale via retail. Oh, and on top of that, they are also doing a similar 2 phase distribution method, so there is that too).

To me this is something that might be actionable in a legal sense.

It's not, because it wasn't something that was 'promised' until after they had already collected from you. Beyond that, you should look at the Kickstarter T&C.

All of us who are going should do the same.

Good luck.

chaos0xomega wrote:
http://i.imgur.com/qTHxOZx.gif

Cute, if unproductive.

I could have told you from day one that that wasn't going to happen, between my background as an industrial engineer and experience with other kickstarters, as well as what they presented to us from the very start of the kickstarter it was a completely unrealistic date. I mean, it *might* have been realistic if all we funded was the starter box, but as soon as we got into expansion territory that went right out the window.

And that gives them permission to throw out any date they want with no expectation of having upset customers? Yes, we knew they were full of gak. We said so right here in this thread. That doesn't mean it's okay.

Where were we lied to exactly? Aside from the delivery date, which I suppose was a 'lie' though one that seems common to almost every kickstarter to the point that I am surprised when one *is* on time. Also, shoddy work? Whats shoddy? The minis look on par with what I would expect, you havent even seen them in person either, good job judging purely on some low quality photos.

The reports we've had about the rules are shoddy. The seams in the locations they're in is shoddy work. I expect better if someone is calling them "mouth watering" and selling them like PB is.
Oh, and they essentially guaranteed us that they'd deliver backer boxes before retail. They changed their mind on that. So if that's not a lie...

I didn't pledge that kickstarter, didn't strike me as being very realistic, not really familiar with how it turned out either, though I've been told the minis left a lot to be desired. As I understand it (based on what I inferred from your post), it was a post-release failure and is now priced even lower than the kickstarter due to the fact that they have to move a load of crappy product. Oh well, it happens, its entirely possible (though unlikely) that GW puts a price drop in effect on its miniatures range and the $50 miniatures you bought yesterday end up being worth $40 tomorrow. Would you be crying about that too?

No. Because I don't give a crap about retail value - you were the one that brought it up. Since you put enough stock in retail value to mention it, I'd expect you'd be upset about it happening though.

But retail is receiving the product first, developed with your money.
They are still banking on selling the product with the rules "sight unseen".
Imagine if the rules are panned as "garbage" by the critics?
How much could they command at retail then?

100 people are receiving the product 'at retail', its like an advanced/preview distribution, again, perfectly normal. If the rules are garbage, then oh well, I got a lemon and will find another way to use the minis, its the risk I accepted when I backed a kickstarter that gave me absolutely no indication as to how the game is played.

No, it's not perfectly normal. Normal would be identifying reviews in advance and sending copies, etc. Marketing.
This is like the Max/Myria debacle - first come, first serve, we don't care who you are. It's exactly like retail.

Oh, Update 125 you say? Released in January of this year? 6 months AFTER you had already pledged? Uh huh, okay, yeah. That wasn't originally part of the deal unless you assumed it, at one point after the fact they made that a bonus, and then at some point they felt the need to renege on that. IT HAPPENS. 100 copies pre-sold to 100 people at a convention isn't the end of the world. You will be receiving your stuff before the general public.

It was part of the deal. Because the deal was, until then, to deliver well before GenCon and announce retail fall of 2014. "Backers first" didn't have to be said because it couldn't happen any other way.

Again, its 100 copies released as a promotion, it is NOT the end of the world, and you will still be getting yours before anyone other than them.

At this point I wouldnt be surprised if they consciously made this decision knowing it would piss you all off as a sort of 'twist of the knife' for all the complaining they've no doubt endured since the minute the kickstarter ended.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Oh, Update 125 you say? Released in January of this year? 6 months AFTER you had already pledged? Uh huh, okay, yeah. That wasn't originally part of the deal unless you assumed it, at one point after the fact they made that a bonus, and then at some point they felt the need to renege on that. IT HAPPENS. 100 copies pre-sold to 100 people at a convention isn't the end of the world. You will be receiving your stuff before the general public.

Careful! You'll hurt your back moving those goalposts so quickly after being proven so wrong. You said they never claimed we'd get them before retail and I told you of just ONE of the instances months ago when they promised it. Now it has to be part of the "original deal" with your very Palladium-esque revision of your point? The original deal... you know.. the one where they promised us ALL of our minis by last December? Oh, wait... they unilaterally amended that to 1/3 of the sculpts one two months late... I mean six months late... I mean 8-10 months late. The part about promising backers getting theirs first before retail was repeatedly supposed to be the consolation prize mantra uttered to soften the blow of the colossal management failure to that point. And you're also now equivocating "before the general public"... that isn't what they promised either. No matter how you look at it, they promised it and they're now knowing breaking that promise. Palladium themselves admit it. I have no idea why you have such a hard time doing so. You don't care that they're breaking their word yet again... I get it. That is your choice and you're welcome to that opinion. Just don't spout out completely ignorant falsehoods about them never promising it just so you can try to insult fellow posters. And, btw, a quick google search for robotech announcements brings up this page from BEFORE the kickstarter:

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=651:prepare-for-invasion&catid=53:product-features

Plus, the Kickstarter gives you the first shot at getting many of the Robotech® game pieces before anyone else.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Again, its 100 copies released as a promotion, it is NOT the end of the world, and you will still be getting yours before anyone other than them.

Are you sure about that? And isn't that still directly contradicting what they said in January?

At this point I wouldnt be surprised if they consciously made this decision knowing it would piss you all off as a sort of 'twist of the knife' for all the complaining they've no doubt endured since the minute the kickstarter ended.

Wow. Could you help me catch my eyes? They're halfway out the door they're rolling so hard.
"Hey... these guys have legitimate complaints that we mostly ignored. I know! As revenge we'll piss them off even more! Just for fun! There's *no* *way* this could backfire into negative publicity!"

Rigeld, be careful what you wish for (or mock in this case)....

I really wouldn't worry about the public getting too much at GenCon. One or two ViPs will grab up most if not all of the stock to flip on ebay. It's really the one thing I hate most about GenCon. I mean I know companies are there to make as much money as possible but it really hurts your PR with the general public when you allow ViP junk like that to go down.

ProTip gaming companies: Purchase limits are not a bad thing at massive events like this.

They had purchasing limits of 1 per customer per day and that didn't stop ebay sellers from getting multiples. IIRC one seller had 4 each of Max and Miriya for sale during the first day or two of the con and then got another two later on.

Still mitigates things like the Netrunner release debacle.

What was that?

 warboss wrote:
What was that?

VIGs buying up all the copies until a clever manager told the mooks to stop unloading the pallets.
You see at Gencon people with VIG badges get access to the dealer hall an hour before the regular badges.

I'm not sure if Robotech will be as popular though.

It was last year. A buddy of mine was a VIG and he went straight to the booth and there was a line at least 20 long (and IIRC they were only giving out 50 each a day).

Of course there are a lot of big releases to compete with this year- D&D Fifth, 40k Conquest, Inifinity's Icestorm, Relic Knights, Doom Town, and I'm sure I'm forgetting a few others.

Gonna be honest. I'd love a shot at the Rick Hunter special but I missed the KS by a good while.

Mr.Church13 wrote:
Gonna be honest. I'd love a shot at the Rick Hunter special but I missed the KS by a good while.

I imagine there'll be plenty on ebay, probably enough that the price likely won't be driven too far out of reach.

I can't speak for anyone else, but my group of 3 who backed together have 8 of those things coming. I've got 3 lined up personally, and intend to sell 2 (along with a big pile of other stuff to recoup some costs from this clusterfeth), and I wouldn't be surprised if others felt similarly.

I've seen some people comment about wanting to have a Skull Squadron (literally) and putting the Roys to use there, so it's possible those might be a bit harder to come by, but overall I wouldn't be surprised if there was plenty of RRT on the secondary market once packages start getting delivered.

Edited for fear of retaliation from PB.

My worry is that it is not 100 boxes, but a few hundred according to the update, so perhaps 250 at the low end but possibly 500 plus. No wonder there was no room to fulfil direct backer pick up?

I do not buy the promotion angle , great demos, enthusiastic players/backers and a preorder systemwould have taken care of that.

To me it looks loke a cash dash, which is more worrying when we know they still have to get Wave 2 out there. Has KS used up his funding and are PB struggling again?

Apart from anything else still nothing on their replacement policy - did you note the lack of popcorn or othe protection for the sprues? - and a clear fulfilment policy.

Can PB cponfirm that it will be US backers then the ROW backers or is PB going to go gangsta again and just fulfil US backers then the US preorders to retail, finally releasing the ROW late this year once container ten or whatever it is docks.

I have asked several times but still can get noone at PB to tell me who their UK agents are

@Cypher: Feel free to post it wherever. Just know that it will likely get you an instant warning over on the Palladium forums.

@Coyote: A few hundred may be all they'll be able to put together. From the look of the pics, it doesn't look like the factory is collating the stuff into the correct boxes automatically. If that is the case, they'll likely have to spend the first few days after it gets there putting all the components together in the box by hand. I'm going to take a wild guess and say that priority will be given to assembling the gencon boxes and not those going out to the token number of backers and fan friends that will see them during the con.

Delete

I think the lawsuit talk is a bunch of hot air from a guy seemingly filled with an endless supply of it judging from his style of posting. As for wave 2, I suspect we'll be in the same situation for Gencon 2015 where it shows up there first and backers who paid (at that point) two years earlier get the leftovers whenever they get around to it.

Eh, that "Rick" guy has been posting about a lawsuit incessantly for months, but some other guy apparently had an attorney write up something and faxed it over to PB (how very fittingly 80's) on Friday.

Whether or not it holds up under scrutiny, this update finally pushed some people to act.

Delete

Apparently Palladium is putting up to a comments vote if the backers want them to sell product at Gen Con.

...of course, they're counting any people not voting as a "yes", so it's more or less meaningless, but if you at least would like to post it...

I'd kinda like to see how many post they do delete, though xD.

Can't delete comments on KS.