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 warboss wrote:
Um... no.

[paraphrase]You apparently missed that in your zeal to attack the Maiden Kevin.[/paraphrase]

 warboss wrote:


If your Regults take only ten minutes, you must be using CYA glue and accelerator combined with some seriously fast clipping. That's pretty impressive. In any case, the basic regult isn't half as difficult as the specialty ones in terms of parts count but I suspect the little barrels will result in more than a few cuss words uttered and parts lost or damaged. When I was looking at the command sprues and the finished models, my first thought was that even with careful storage alot of zentraedi figs will be modelled with battle damage after only a few games as those tiny parts break.

Did you use any city terrain? How big of a board did you guys play on? Was it in person or on a virtual tabletop?

Plastruct Plastic Weld. Ten minutes for assembly. I've been pre-clipping everything into little piles of arms/legs/etc so I guess maybe another ten minutes for clipping? I can usually get 3 models clipped, cleaned, assembled in an album length - the newest Interpol is about 40 minutes, which I've been listening to like non-stop. But yeah, I have dropped many a part and cursed said parts but I have yet to lose one or break one (aforementioned 1/72 armor experience probably being my saving grace). I think Manchu broke one of his pod antenna though.

Yup, I've been buying Gamecraft's building packs (http://gcmini.mybigcommerce.com/6mm-large-city-buildings/?sort=featured&page=2) and bunches of micro scale trees and whatnot. 4'x4'. In person.


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 warboss wrote:

Yup, you'd have to spend a CP to knock out the second building with a rapid fire GU-11 but it is odd to me that a GU can take out two buildings in one burst. As for the dimensions, I posted that I plan on using the DZC terrain and most of the buildings (3 out of the 5) are less than 5 cubic inches total in volume by a rough count. One is only 50% larger (so 6mdc) and the other (the tallest) maybe get close to double if you round up. I suspect I'm probably not the only gamer that will use the set (if you haven't seen or heard about the cityscape set, I recommend you check it out as it is great for the cost). Metagame-wise though, if you've got an attrition squad of a dozen or more pods and the RDF squadron you're facing is taking cover behind a building or two, why wouldn't you spend a single model's activation to knock down the cover and remove a penalty for the other 11+ models in the squad?

I agree buildings seem too weak, but I have yet to attempt to destroy terrain to see if it even matters. It might simply be one of balance, in that, if too tough, no one will attack/destroy buildings. Plus, there's so very few blast weapons (the Monster's cannons... what else? Phalanx?) that most of the firing has to specifically target the building.



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 warboss wrote:
SDC strikes again! I think it is a safe bet to double them as well as somewhat aggressively err on the stronger side when looking at a building to see what type it is. I dont have any issue with an average house/cottage being destroyed by a single missile at 2mdc but I'd look at the situation a bit funny if a battlepod blast didn't at 5x the current 1mdc. The DZC building in their retro styling are all concrete/brick so they fit in ok at 8mdc for each 5" cube with doubling. At 8, theyre immune to one shotting by most standard weapons but the big guns still take them down in one shot.

Honestly it's probably the 5" cube thing. That's a LOT of volume. It also means a single rancher has the same def/MDC as a row of townhouses. A small apartment building would be maybe 3" cube, right? Why not just use the same def and MDC and keep it in multiples of 3"?

So few blast weapons? Bombs, missiles? They are everywhere and easily accessible.


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The 5" cube thing is absurd. That is a huge building at 6mm scale.

 Swabby wrote:
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The 5" cube thing is absurd. That is a huge building at 6mm scale.

Agreed, I think it was just to blanket say it covers just about any building. Of course you could do X MDC per square inch and measure every building before play...

 judgedoug wrote:
Plastruct Plastic Weld. Ten minutes for assembly. I've been pre-clipping everything into little piles of arms/legs/etc so I guess maybe another ten minutes for clipping? I can usually get 3 models clipped, cleaned, assembled in an album length - the newest Interpol is about 40 minutes, which I've been listening to like non-stop. But yeah, I have dropped many a part and cursed said parts but I have yet to lose one or break one (aforementioned 1/72 armor experience probably being my saving grace). I think Manchu broke one of his pod antenna though.

Yup, I've been buying Gamecraft's building packs (http://gcmini.mybigcommerce.com/6mm-large-city-buildings/?sort=featured&page=2) and bunches of micro scale trees and whatnot. 4'x4'. In person.

I agree buildings seem too weak, but I have yet to attempt to destroy terrain to see if it even matters. It might simply be one of balance, in that, if too tough, no one will attack/destroy buildings. Plus, there's so very few blast weapons (the Monster's cannons... what else? Phalanx?) that most of the firing has to specifically target the building.

Honestly it's probably the 5" cube thing. That's a LOT of volume. It also means a single rancher has the same def/MDC as a row of townhouses. A small apartment building would be maybe 3" cube, right? Why not just use the same def and MDC and keep it in multiples of 3"?

Ah, preclipping would save some time if not included in the 10 minutes. I'll eventually see sometime this month how long it takes but I may be tempted instead to try and assemble the QRaus instead as my opponent won't have any of those.

Pretty much most of the solutions presented would work to make buildings more durable (assuming that you think they need to be). Changing to 3" cubes and doubling the values are roughly equivalent. One thing to consider is that with blast weapons unlike normal ones, you don't have to neglect shooting at the opfor while destroying buildings. You target a model using the building as cover and both are hit if the shot lands. I guess in addition to tweaking the values you could also specify that only blast weapons and melee do full damage to buildings and other weapons (that instead shoot through without much structural damage) do half damage instead. That way you still get the cinematic valkryie ramming/bodyblocking a small building (like, say, Minmei's apartment/restaurant) and doing significant damage but not the odd situation where most mecha can falcon punch the Sears Tower (or whatever it is called now) to death in one shot.


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 Mike1975 wrote:

 Swabby wrote:
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The 5" cube thing is absurd. That is a huge building at 6mm scale.

Agreed, I think it was just to blanket say it covers just about any building. Of course you could do X MDC per square inch and measure every building before play...

Even at 1MDC an inch, you could get some pretty high values. An average 3"W x 5"L x 3"T civilian apartment building would have 45MDC... and that is the weakest structure around and the values would go up for anything that looks reinforced. The more I think about it, the more I like doubling the MDC and just halving the damage from non-melee/blast weapons. It's quick and simple and IMO still gives you a semblance of what you see in the show without making it too metagamey easy ridiculous to abuse. A regult or valkyrie GU could still one shot a small house but not a full apartment building. Now I just have to see if my opponent will be ok with that. Ah, the joys of Palladium gaming... house ruling right out of the box!

I have this weird feeling that they were expecting this to go down like their RPGs without really anticipating how much scrutiny there would be on the rules.

I am predicting a second edition ruleset before the release of the masters saga at this rate.

 warboss wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Plastruct Plastic Weld. Ten minutes for assembly. I've been pre-clipping everything into little piles of arms/legs/etc so I guess maybe another ten minutes for clipping? I can usually get 3 models clipped, cleaned, assembled in an album length - the newest Interpol is about 40 minutes, which I've been listening to like non-stop. But yeah, I have dropped many a part and cursed said parts but I have yet to lose one or break one (aforementioned 1/72 armor experience probably being my saving grace). I think Manchu broke one of his pod antenna though.

Yup, I've been buying Gamecraft's building packs (http://gcmini.mybigcommerce.com/6mm-large-city-buildings/?sort=featured&page=2) and bunches of micro scale trees and whatnot. 4'x4'. In person.

I agree buildings seem too weak, but I have yet to attempt to destroy terrain to see if it even matters. It might simply be one of balance, in that, if too tough, no one will attack/destroy buildings. Plus, there's so very few blast weapons (the Monster's cannons... what else? Phalanx?) that most of the firing has to specifically target the building.

Honestly it's probably the 5" cube thing. That's a LOT of volume. It also means a single rancher has the same def/MDC as a row of townhouses. A small apartment building would be maybe 3" cube, right? Why not just use the same def and MDC and keep it in multiples of 3"?

Ah, preclipping would save some time if not included in the 10 minutes. I'll eventually see sometime this month how long it takes but I may be tempted instead to try and assemble the QRaus instead as my opponent won't have any of those.

Pretty much most of the solutions presented would work to make buildings more durable (assuming that you think they need to be). Changing to 3" cubes and doubling the values are roughly equivalent. One thing to consider is that with blast weapons unlike normal ones, you don't have to neglect shooting at the opfor while destroying buildings. You target a model using the building as cover and both are hit if the shot lands. I guess in addition to tweaking the values you could also specify that only blast weapons and melee do full damage to buildings and other weapons (that instead shoot through without much structural damage) do half damage instead. That way you still get the cinematic valkryie ramming/bodyblocking a small building (like, say, Minmei's apartment/restaurant) and doing significant damage but not the odd situation where most mecha can falcon punch the Sears Tower (or whatever it is called now) to death in one shot.


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 Mike1975 wrote:

 Swabby wrote:
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The 5" cube thing is absurd. That is a huge building at 6mm scale.

Agreed, I think it was just to blanket say it covers just about any building. Of course you could do X MDC per square inch and measure every building before play...

Even at 1MDC an inch, you could get some pretty high values. An average 3"W x 5"L x 3"T civilian apartment building would have 45MDC... and that is the weakest structure around and the values would go up for anything that looks reinforced. The more I think about it, the more I like doubling the MDC and just halving the damage from non-melee/blast weapons. It's quick and simple and IMO still gives you a semblance of what you see in the show without making it too metagamey easy ridiculous to abuse. A regult or valkyrie GU could still one shot a small house but not a full apartment building. Now I just have to see if my opponent will be ok with that. Ah, the joys of Palladium gaming... house ruling right out of the box!

Do 1 MDC per 3 in^2 or 4 in^2. I'd have to work the numbers a bit.

I honestly don't see what the issue with building damage is:

Brick and Wooden Construction (DF: 3, 1 MDC)  Typical Residential Buildings. - This is meant to be representative of things like a typical single family home.

Steel and Glass Construction (DF: 3, 2 MDC)  Typical Commercial or Office Buildings. - Don't think of this as a skyscraper/high rise type building. Think of things more like a local strip mall or a 2-3 story glass facade office building.

Concrete and Steel Construction (DF: 3, 4 MDC)  Industrial Buildings, Military or Civilian. - Imagine warehouse/factory buildings, they are largely a shell structure with little in the way of internal structure, theres really not that much there to 'destroy'.

Modern Reinforced Construction (DF: 3, 8 MDC)  Civilian Construction in Military Zones. - The 'in military zones' bit is misleading, 'modern reinforced construction' would actually be the definition (roughly speaking in civil engineering terms) of most commercial buildings built in the past 100 years or so, including most high rise and skyscraper buildings in most major cities (well, in the US at least, European cities are a bit of a different animal). If you're using Dropzone Commander buildings, these would be the most accurate representation of them.

Military Grade Construction (DF: 4, 12 MDC)  Military Housing, Office Building, and Base Structures. - This might be a bit misleading, most military structures not built for defensive purposes are really no different than the "modern reinforced construction", but can be used to represent more robust structures in a pinch.

Fortified Military Construction (DF: 4, 20 MDC)  Fortified Bunkers, Gun Pits, and other fortifications. - Seems legit.

Zentraedi Starship Construction (DF: 4, 25 MDC)  Crashed Spacecraft of the Zentraedi Fleet. - Seems legit, remember it is crashed.

UEDF Starship Construction (DF4, 40 MDC)  Crashed Spacecraft of the UEDF. - Seems legit, remember it is crashed.

As for the talk of the Gu-11, etc. As others have pointed out, its a 55m round. To put it into perspective for you, thats slightly larger than 2 inches in diameter, almost 50% larger than the 40mm round shown here:




Due to the physics involved with weapon design, a 50% increase in round size can easily translate to a 200% increase in destructive capability. Beyond that, the 40mm round used by the Bofors is 80 year old technology, a more modern 40mm design is capable of causing significantly more damage due to evolutions in our understanding of ballistics, aerodynamics, and projectile, propellant, and explosive design. To try to put it into further perspective for you, 60 mm is the size of the M224 light mortar in use by the US Army & Marines. A 60mm HE mortar round has a lethal radius of 20 meters, which is larger than the 2000 SF house I presently reside in. Further, a mortar is a low velocity, high angle projectile with none of the kinetic energy of a high velocity, high rate of fire, low-angle direct firing cannon.

Further, the game is an abstraction, even though the weapon might have an ROF of 3 for gaming purposes, you can rest assured that its representative of firing several times that number of rounds. So assuming that GU-11 is firing 3-4 rounds per ROF listed in the weapons profile, it is easily capable of one-shotting my current dwelling. 6-8 rounds worth of damage is reasonable for wrecking a small office/commercial steel & glass construction, 12-16 rounds is also reasonable for a concrete & steel construction, etc.

Put another way, an Apache fires a 30mm round (the same one used by an A-10), a couple rounds from one of those is more than able to feth my house as well as most small buildings. A 55mm even moreso.

Don't forget we are talking up to a 5 x 5 x 5 building. 1 inch is 330 feet you are talking a pretty big building. So your house would be like 1 x 1 x 1 at most.

Buh? If the scale is 1:285, 1 inch = 285 inches, or 23.75 feet.

A 5 x 5 x 5 cube would be a building roughly 118.75 feet on a side, which is pretty big, but obviously not that immense. Though you don't generally see ~12 story buildings that are that wide and deep, at least in residential and commercial districts I'm familiar with. Maybe some industrial areas?

If the GU11 is capable of leveling a house into rubble with one shot why does that zentradi in episode one keep moving after taking like at least 6 rounds to the chest?

 Forar wrote:
Buh? If the scale is 1:285, 1 inch = 285 inches, or 23.75 feet.

A 5 x 5 x 5 cube would be a building roughly 118.75 feet on a side, which is pretty big, but obviously not that immense. Though you don't generally see ~12 story buildings that are that wide and deep, at least in residential and commercial districts I'm familiar with. Maybe some industrial areas?

What Forar said. An average suburban home in the US would probably be closer to 1.5x1x.5 (lxwxh), a 5x5x5 building of modern reinforced construction at 8 MDC is therefore reasonably appropriate. Using the GU-11 might not be the best metric however considering that some weapons that are theoretically more powerful issue out the same amount of damage, thats why I pointed out the abstraction element and that 1 ROF isnt the same as 1 actual bullet being fired.

"Based on Official Stats"

Mike! You kill me dude.

 Mike1975 wrote:

"... plus Fan-Made Units" without marking which is which.

Disclaimer: The gift horse has beautiful teeth, otherwise.

Mike should just become a full-time rules writer for PB. That way all his stats will be official and everyone will be 98% less confused

Or just give up helping others.....

Dope it out

 Mike1975 wrote:
Or just give up helping others.....

A) no good deed goes unpunished.

B) Man, we've been over this (and why some of us feel it's important to be clear) like six times in this thread alone.

C) Frankly, I haven't exactly been counting, but a lot of the times you drop these things it seems to be out of the blue. Sometimes people ask for access to this or that, but often comes across as more of a 'oh, look at what I've been up to' thing, so trying to play it off like you're being unappreciated isn't exactly lining up with what actually happens.

D) Why bother continuing to post 'em? Just put links in your sig and anyone looking for them will know to just find one of your posts, which shouldn't be hard to do. And then when someone does ask, you can just comment that they can be found in your sig, triumphantly! The sig is the gift that keeps on giving!

 Swabby wrote:
So few blast weapons? Bombs, missiles? They are everywhere and easily accessible.

Hmm a quick perusal... Phalanx has 11 Blast missiles... Monster has 16 Blast shots from it's primary cannons... for Zentraedi, Heavy Artillery pod has 4 Blast missiles, NGer, QRau, and Infantry have some blast weapons.
I think that's it?


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 warboss wrote:

Pretty much most of the solutions presented would work to make buildings more durable (assuming that you think they need to be). Changing to 3" cubes and doubling the values are roughly equivalent. One thing to consider is that with blast weapons unlike normal ones, you don't have to neglect shooting at the opfor while destroying buildings. You target a model using the building as cover and both are hit if the shot lands. I guess in addition to tweaking the values you could also specify that only blast weapons and melee do full damage to buildings and other weapons (that instead shoot through without much structural damage) do half damage instead. That way you still get the cinematic valkryie ramming/bodyblocking a small building (like, say, Minmei's apartment/restaurant) and doing significant damage but not the odd situation where most mecha can falcon punch the Sears Tower (or whatever it is called now) to death in one shot.

Again, I haven't played with building destructibility yet, so I don't have a valid opinion on whether or not buildings need to be more durable.
However, I think a good solution would be to keep the rules as printed, and just make it so non-blast weapons cause 1 damage (putting a big hole in it, maybe starting a fire).



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 Swabby wrote:
If the GU11 is capable of leveling a house into rubble with one shot why does that zentradi in episode one keep moving after taking like at least 6 rounds to the chest?

We also see a Regult fire it's auto-cannon at, and blow up, a building in one episode. The show is definitely not ruled by any real world physics.

They're Official Mike Rules, what's confusing about that?

 stanman wrote:
They're Official Mike Rules, what's confusing about that?

That's OK since some seem to get confused I'll just not post them for you and keep your life simple.

 judgedoug wrote:

 Swabby wrote:
So few blast weapons? Bombs, missiles? They are everywhere and easily accessible.

Hmm a quick perusal... Phalanx has 11 Blast missiles... Monster has 16 Blast shots from it's primary cannons... for Zentraedi, Heavy Artillery pod has 4 Blast missiles, NGer, QRau, and Infantry have some blast weapons.
I think that's it?

The YF4 LRMs, Valkyries get gravity bomb upgrades in the UEDF and improvised bombs as malcontents. This is why I wish we could see all the upgrades in the book on each unit rather than have the information on the cards only. I am confident there are more but I don't have the cards on me :(

 Mike1975 wrote:

 stanman wrote:
They're Official Mike Rules, what's confusing about that?

That's OK since some seem to get confused I'll just not post them for you and keep your life simple.

Or y'know, just not act like Kevin Siembieda when multiple people give you feedback.

I listened, I even changed the name twice for you all. Explained where and how the data came from, and some decided to still be confused when everywhere else this has been posted at nobody seems to have the same confusion. So instead of further complicating things it's easier to just share with those who appreciate it.

Not sure where this KS idea comes from but meh, I did this to help, if people don't want it there is no sense pushing it is there?



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I suppose I could rename them for you

Unofficialstatcardsbasedonknownofficialstatswithaddedfanmadecardsmadewithlightredbackgroundforclarityandlightredisacolorthatlooksalmostpinkbutinrealityisnotandthestatsare98%correct

 Mike1975 wrote:
I suppose I could rename them for you

Unofficialstatcardsbasedonknownofficialstatswithaddedfanmadecardsmadewithlightredbackgroundforclarityandlightredisacolorthatlooksalmostpinkbutinrealityisnotandthestatsare98%correct

It still has the word official in it.


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 Mike1975 wrote:

 stanman wrote:
They're Official Mike Rules, what's confusing about that?

That's OK since some seem to get confused I'll just not post them for you and keep your life simple.

Come now, this doesn't call for an Eric Smith take the ball home because you guys are mean. It's all in 98% official good fun.

Unofficialstatcardsbasedonknownofficialstatswithaddedfanmadecardsmadewithlightredbackgroundforclarityandlightredisacolorthatlooksalmostpinkbutinrealityisnotandthestatsare98%correct

We should all chip in and buy Mike some untwistable panties as a thank you.

LOL Mike! Dude, I actually appreciate what you are doing. Please don't take it that way at all. You have been a tremendous resource and help throughout this whole kickstarter.

Let us help you in return man. The feedback on the "official" wording is not a criticism of your efforts, just a clarification to help kill possible confusion that could pop up.

Personally, if I see "official", it should have come from the people in charge. Not "inspired by", not "mostly official stuff with a few un-noted unofficial additions", purely, 100% and totally official. Stuff I could take to a tournament or league and have it check out against everyone else's cards/books.

There is totally space for unofficial material!

But it's not mixed in with official stuff.

Hell, as I've said before, go the sig route.

OFFICIAL RDF cards in one link.
OFFICIAL Zentraedi cards in another.
and UNOFFICIAL vehicles, mechs and options in a third.

Bam, useful tool for the community, a sig that does vastly more than most, no confusion as to what is what.

Yeah, sorry Mike, but all your hard work will remain unappreciated until a time when Kevin can completely rewrite everything you've done and take credit.
If it's any consolation, your unofficial stuff is great!