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So I play Tyranid and my friend plays Eldar, and we have a hard time settling this dispute between our two special powers.

Tyranid Synapse Creatures emit the Shadow in the Warp to enemy psykers within 12" forcing them to take their Psychic tests on 3D6, and causing Perils of the Warp on any double 1's or 6's.

Eldar Farseers have Runes of Witnessing allowing them to take their Psychic tests on 3D6, discarding the highest roll and using the two lowest die.

Does either of these two special rules conflict, or cancel each other out?

For example, when his Farseer takes a Psychic test within range of the SitW, does he still get to use the two lowest die? Does he still suffer Perils on ANY pair of 1's or 6's?


***I am already at a HUGE disadvantage because his Runes of Warding works just like my SitW but affects EVERY one of my psykers on the board causing me Perils on any roll of 12+.

SitW is an extra D6 now rather than fixed 3d6. So he would roll 4 dice and discard the highest IIRC

Both rules have been Errata'd,

Page 26 – Runes of Witnessing.
Change the last two sentences to: “A Farseer with runes of witnessing must roll an extra dice when taking Psychic tests and discards the highest result.

Page 33 – Shadow in the Warp, second paragraph.
Change to “Any enemy psyker within 12” of a Tyranid with the Shadow in the Warp special rule must roll an extra dice when taking Psychic tests, and will suffer a Perils of the Warp attack on the roll of any double 1 or double 6.

So, roll 4 dice and discard the highest, then perils on any double 1 or double 6.

And yes, Runes of Warding are nastier than Shadow, hoping it gets toned down in the next Codex.

A case could be made that, since both the rules say to "roll an extra dice" then one extra dice (For a total of 3d6) would fulfill both the rules, as you are rolling an an extra dice.

Rolling 4d6 is rolling two extra dice, and not simply "an extra dice"

Basically rolling "an extra dice" fulfills both rules.

I do not think you will find many that play this way though.

I'm in agreement with Quanar on this. In this specific instance, the Eldar player would roll 4d6, and discard the highest roll, add the remaining 3, and pray none of the remaining dice show double 1's or 6's.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I'm in agreement with Quanar on this. In this specific instance, the Eldar player would roll 4d6, and discard the highest roll, add the remaining 3, and pray none of the remaining dice show double 1's or 6's.

SJ

Nothin' like a Ghosthelm to rid yourselves of those pesky Perils...

 DeathReaper wrote:
A case could be made that, since both the rules say to "roll an extra dice" then one extra dice (For a total of 3d6) would fulfil both the rules, as you are rolling an an extra dice.

Rolling 4d6 is rolling two extra dice, and not simply "an extra dice"

Basically rolling "an extra dice" fulfills both rules.

I do not think you will find many that play this way though.

It's an extra dice for each rule. If you're rolling 3d6 you're not rolling an extra die for Shadows or Runes.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
A case could be made that, since both the rules say to "roll an extra dice" then one extra dice (For a total of 3d6) would fulfil both the rules, as you are rolling an an extra dice.

Rolling 4d6 is rolling two extra dice, and not simply "an extra dice"

Basically rolling "an extra dice" fulfills both rules.

I do not think you will find many that play this way though.

It's an extra dice for each rule. If you're rolling 3d6 you're not rolling an extra die for Shadows or Runes.

Yes you are, as each rule tells you to roll an extra dice and since you are rolling an extra dice, you fulfil both rules by that one extra dice.

But like i said I do not think you will find many that play this way, even though a case to play it this way can be made.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
A case could be made that, since both the rules say to "roll an extra dice" then one extra dice (For a total of 3d6) would fulfil both the rules, as you are rolling an an extra dice.

Rolling 4d6 is rolling two extra dice, and not simply "an extra dice"

Basically rolling "an extra dice" fulfills both rules.

I do not think you will find many that play this way though.

It's an extra dice for each rule. If you're rolling 3d6 you're not rolling an extra die for Shadows or Runes.

Yes you are, as each rule tells you to roll an extra dice and since you are rolling an extra dice, you fulfil both rules by that one extra dice.

But like i said I do not think you will find many that play this way, even though a case to play it this way can be made.

Excuse my French, but that's complete bs. Each rule says to roll an extra d6 with the added bonus of discarding one from RoW. You start off with 2 dice, +1 die for RoW and +1 die for SiTW. Hence you have 4d6.

Using your logic, SiTW has no effect, since the Eldar psyker still rolls 3d6 despite being in SiTW range.

Tyragorn wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
A case could be made that, since both the rules say to "roll an extra dice" then one extra dice (For a total of 3d6) would fulfil both the rules, as you are rolling an an extra dice.

Rolling 4d6 is rolling two extra dice, and not simply "an extra dice"

Basically rolling "an extra dice" fulfills both rules.

I do not think you will find many that play this way though.

It's an extra dice for each rule. If you're rolling 3d6 you're not rolling an extra die for Shadows or Runes.

Yes you are, as each rule tells you to roll an extra dice and since you are rolling an extra dice, you fulfil both rules by that one extra dice.

But like i said I do not think you will find many that play this way, even though a case to play it this way can be made.

Excuse my French, but that's complete bs. Each rule says to roll an extra d6 with the added bonus of discarding one from RoW. You start off with 2 dice, +1 die for RoW and +1 die for SiTW. Hence you have 4d6.

Using your logic, SiTW has no effect, since the Eldar psyker still rolls 3d6 despite being in SiTW range.

It does not say +1 die so your assertation is not true.

Your statement should look like this: 'You start off with 2 dice, roll an extra dice for RoW and roll an extra dice for SiTW.'

One extra dice fulfills both rules.

When you go to roll a psychic power you assess what rules are in play. you start with 2D6 as a base for your psychic test. we see that there are SitW and RoW in effect. these rules state roll an extra dice. If you are rolling 3D6 you are rolling an extra dice, and both rules are fulfilled.

However as I said before A case could be made, but I do not think you will find many that play this way though.
(I do not encounter both because no one I know plays eldar and if I do I would not play this way either, I would go with the 4D6 just to be safe).

Lets leave it at Most people play it as 4D6 but accept the fact that it is a bit ambiguous. Clearly both these things are true as not everyone has the same interpretation of this rule.

It is not ambiguous. It is 4d6. Your own example is failure to follow the instructions in the sentence.

Fragile wrote:
It is not ambiguous. It is 4d6. Your own example is failure to follow the instructions in the sentence.

If you roll 3D6, have you " rolled an extra dice"

If the answer is yes, you have fulfilled both rules.

It is ambiguous as not everyone has the same interpretation of this rule.

You have to roll 4d6, just because each rule says you have to roll an extra d6 doesn't mean it only goes to 3d6. You haven't fulfilled both rules, only one. Like I said earlier, rolling 3d6 in this case is basically ignoring the SITW rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Tyragorn wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
A case could be made that, since both the rules say to "roll an extra dice" then one extra dice (For a total of 3d6) would fulfil both the rules, as you are rolling an an extra dice.

Rolling 4d6 is rolling two extra dice, and not simply "an extra dice"

Basically rolling "an extra dice" fulfills both rules.

I do not think you will find many that play this way though.

It's an extra dice for each rule. If you're rolling 3d6 you're not rolling an extra die for Shadows or Runes.

Yes you are, as each rule tells you to roll an extra dice and since you are rolling an extra dice, you fulfil both rules by that one extra dice.

But like i said I do not think you will find many that play this way, even though a case to play it this way can be made.

Excuse my French, but that's complete bs. Each rule says to roll an extra d6 with the added bonus of discarding one from RoW. You start off with 2 dice, +1 die for RoW and +1 die for SiTW. Hence you have 4d6.

Using your logic, SiTW has no effect, since the Eldar psyker still rolls 3d6 despite being in SiTW range.

It does not say +1 die so your assertation is not true.

Your statement should look like this: 'You start off with 2 dice, roll an extra dice for RoW and roll an extra dice for SiTW.'

One extra dice fulfills both rules.

When you go to roll a psychic power you assess what rules are in play. you start with 2D6 as a base for your psychic test. we see that there are SitW and RoW in effect. these rules state roll an extra dice. If you are rolling 3D6 you are rolling an extra dice, and both rules are fulfilled.

However as I said before A case could be made, but I do not think you will find many that play this way though.
(I do not encounter both because no one I know plays eldar and if I do I would not play this way either, I would go with the 4D6 just to be safe).

Lets leave it at Most people play it as 4D6 but accept the fact that it is a bit ambiguous. Clearly both these things are true as not everyone has the same interpretation of this rule.

Lets leave it? Nope, you can leave it at that. Everyone else understands it, 4d6 is the correct way, if you can't understand why then please just stop going on about how rolling 3d6 fulfills both rules. It doesn't.

I did not ever say that I did not understand the argument. 4d6 may or may not be the correct RAW, it is most likely RAI, and it is HIWPI. But the rules are not 100% clear, and you do not know if " Everyone else understands it" Is a fallacious claim.

All I said was a case could be made that 3d6 fulfills the roll an extra dice, as normally you have 2d6 and 3d6 is rolling an extra dice.

Lets leave it at Most people play it as 4D6 but accept the fact that it is a bit ambiguous. Clearly both these things are true as not everyone has the same interpretation of this rule.

This means not everyone could have the same interpretation. (I am playing devils advocate as I never encounter this combination and likely never will. If i did i would use the 4d6 method even if that is not what the rules say.4d6 seems like what the rules are intended to be and HIWPI).

Except you're inventing the ambiguity.
It's not that most people accept that it is a bit ambiguous. That would be incorrect - in fact, the minority accept that it is a bit ambiguous.

I did not invent it, it is in the wording of roll an extra dice.

if I am rolling 3d6 when I am normally rolling 2d6 then I am rolling an extra dice...

Remember that I said accept the fact that it is a bit ambiguous.

A bit ambiguous, not totally unclear, but there is a little ambiguity.

Can you seriously not see how someone can read it like that?

 DeathReaper wrote:
I did not invent it, it is in the wording of roll an extra dice.

if I am rolling 3d6 when I am normally rolling 2d6 then I am rolling an extra dice...

You're rolling an extra dice for Runes of Witnessing. Where's the extra dice for Shadows in the Warp?

Remember that I said accept the fact that it is a bit ambiguous.

Actually, you said - and I'll quote - "Most people play it as 4D6 but accept the fact that it is a bit ambiguous."
Not that you accept that fact, but that most people do.

A bit ambiguous, not totally unclear, but there is a little ambiguity.

Can you seriously not see how someone can read it like that?

Well, someone who doesn't understand rules or is hallucinating, sure.
But reading plain english, no I don't see how someone can read it like that.

 DeathReaper wrote:
I did not invent it, it is in the wording of roll an extra dice.

if I am rolling 3d6 when I am normally rolling 2d6 then I am rolling an extra dice...

Remember that I said accept the fact that it is a bit ambiguous.

A bit ambiguous, not totally unclear, but there is a little ambiguity.

Can you seriously not see how someone can read it like that?

I can see where you're coming from, and I've spent most of the day pondering a suitable example to look at it from a different angle, but have drawn a blank (aside from other games systems, which obviously have no relevance here).

But if the intent had been for the two effects to still end up with a roll of 3D6, then why FAQ them at all? GW could have just left them as they were.

You say that 3D6 is not how-you-would-play-it, I'm curious if this is a discussion you've had with your gaming group?

I

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
I did not invent it, it is in the wording of roll an extra dice.

if I am rolling 3d6 when I am normally rolling 2d6 then I am rolling an extra dice...

You're rolling an extra dice for Runes of Witnessing. Where's the extra dice for Shadows in the Warp?

It is there, fully fulfilled by rolling an extra dice. you satisfy both rules by rolling an extra dice. base is 2d6 they both tell you to roll an extra dice, by rolling an extra dice you fulfill both rules.

Quanar wrote:
You say that 3D6 is not how-you-would-play-it, I'm curious if this is a discussion you've had with your gaming group?

No, my gaming group has not discussed this. We have not encountered it as there are no eldar players at all.

We have had no need to discuss it.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Remember that I said accept the fact that it is a bit ambiguous.

Actually, you said - and I'll quote - "Most people play it as 4D6 but accept the fact that it is a bit ambiguous."
Not that you accept that fact, but that most people do.

I was focusing on the Bit in "it is a bit ambiguous." most people can see a 'bit' of ambiguity.

 DeathReaper wrote:
I

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
I did not invent it, it is in the wording of roll an extra dice.

if I am rolling 3d6 when I am normally rolling 2d6 then I am rolling an extra dice...

You're rolling an extra dice for Runes of Witnessing. Where's the extra dice for Shadows in the Warp?

It is there, fully fulfilled by rolling an extra dice. you satisfy both rules by rolling an extra dice. base is 2d6 they both tell you to roll an extra dice, by rolling an extra dice you fulfill both rules.

No, that's the extra dice added by Runes of Witnessing. Shadows in the Warp also requires that you add an extra dice.
That's two separate extra dice.

DR, let's assume for a moment that 3d6 fulfills both rules. I roll 1, 6, 6. If I suffer perils, i'm not following the rules for RoW (discard the highest die). If I don't suffer perils, i'm not following the rules for SitW. That is why it must be +1d6 per rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
I

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
I did not invent it, it is in the wording of roll an extra dice.

if I am rolling 3d6 when I am normally rolling 2d6 then I am rolling an extra dice...

You're rolling an extra dice for Runes of Witnessing. Where's the extra dice for Shadows in the Warp?

It is there, fully fulfilled by rolling an extra dice. you satisfy both rules by rolling an extra dice. base is 2d6 they both tell you to roll an extra dice, by rolling an extra dice you fulfill both rules.

No, that's the extra dice added by Runes of Witnessing. Shadows in the Warp also requires that you add an extra dice.
That's two separate extra dice.

Exactly what I've been saying. I don't think he understands that each rule tell you to roll one extra d6.

If I recall correctly, the Eldar FAQ addresses this - DR seems to be correct here, at least from GW's RAI.

Runes of Witnessing cancel out Runes of Warding, despite not being exact opposites. I would say GW wants us to never roll more than 3d6 for any psychic test.

uberjoras wrote:
If I recall correctly, the Eldar FAQ addresses this - DR seems to be correct here, at least from GW's RAI.

Runes of Witnessing cancel out Runes of Warding, despite not being exact opposites. I would say GW wants us to never roll more than 3d6 for any psychic test.

It mentions that opposing Runes rules do cancel each other out, but I'm not sure you can assume that Shadow counts for this.

 Adamantium wrote:

uberjoras wrote:
If I recall correctly, the Eldar FAQ addresses this - DR seems to be correct here, at least from GW's RAI.

Runes of Witnessing cancel out Runes of Warding, despite not being exact opposites. I would say GW wants us to never roll more than 3d6 for any psychic test.

It mentions that opposing Runes rules do cancel each other out, but I'm not sure you can assume that Shadow counts for this.

Both runes do state that you roll an additional die, at least according to the errata, and the FAQ clarifies that multiple Warding's don't stack, and that Witnessing and Warding don't stack. It's only a logical extension of this train of thought that Shadow in the Warp, which causes 'an extra die', would also be canceled out in the same way.

The reason they don't stack isn't because of the extra die. It's because of the additional effects.

Stop focusing on the extra die.

You can't have a Logical Extension.

RAW You roll 4d6 and discard the highest and then you suffer perils on any double one or double 6.

uberjoras wrote:
If I recall correctly, the Eldar FAQ addresses this - DR seems to be correct here, at least from GW's RAI.

Runes of Witnessing cancel out Runes of Warding, despite not being exact opposites. I would say GW wants us to never roll more than 3d6 for any psychic test.

I'm presuming the entry you mean is:
Q: What happens when a Farseer with Runes of Witnessing rolls for his Psychic test when there is an enemy Farseer with Runes of Warding on the battlefield? (p26)
A: The two pieces of wargear cancel each other out; neither takes effect.

What is noteworthy about this is that it is from before the Runes were Errata'd from "3D6" to "Additional die". The Eldar FAQ has never been given the most attention. We've still got entries related to Star Engines in 5th.

If they both cancel each other out, then it's 2D6.

For the love of Khaine look this stuff up before posting. This is a necromantic thread.

 warpspider89 wrote:
For the love of Khaine look this stuff up before posting. This is a necromantic thread.

Really?

It shows me the first post was on 2013/05/05 (May 5, 2013) which was a day ago as it is currently the 6th of may 2013...