Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Sorry - not to fan the flames but i saw a post earlier saying that Necron Flyers are especially har to kill.......

At AV11 why are they so much harder to kill than other army's flyers? Am i missing something?

Necron's have 3 things in the codex that IMO are overpowered. They are overpowered mostly because they are way underpriced for what they do. The 3 things are:

Anihilation barges, AV 13 vehicle that has 4 twn linked S7 Shots that produces more hits on 6's that's pretty much almost an auto 6 S7 hits a turn, all for 90 points.

Night Scyths. Really decent anti flier with accurate S7 shooting that creats more hits on 6s. Also alows for 36" movement of tropps without having to hover/become vunerable to shooting and of course 3HP. Further they completely avoid the mechanism in the game designed to balance fliers as transports. All of this clocking in at 100 points.

Finally, MSS for 15 points you have a 50% chance of basically having an oposing model get to try and kill itself. completely rediculous given the challenge rules.

These 3 things take Necrons from good to the best army in the game.

Pony_law wrote:
Necron's have 3 things in the codex that IMO are overpowered. They are overpowered mostly because they are way underpriced for what they do. The 3 things are:

Anihilation barges, AV 13 vehicle that has 4 twn linked S7 Shots that produces more hits on 6's that's pretty much almost an auto 6 S7 hits a turn, all for 90 points.

Night Scyths. Really decent anti flier with accurate S7 shooting that creats more hits on 6s. Also alows for 36" movement of tropps without having to hover/become vunerable to shooting and of course 3HP. Further they completely avoid the mechanism in the game designed to balance fliers as transports. All of this clocking in at 100 points.

Finally, MSS for 15 points you have a 50% chance of basically having an oposing model get to try and kill itself. completely rediculous given the challenge rules.

These 3 things take Necrons from good to the best army in the game.

1) Its AP-. Those S7 hits aren't going to do much against that actually has an armor save, and will do poorly against AV13 and will do nothing against AV14. They also take up a heavy slot each, are not scoring units (unless you are playing a certain mission), and has 24" range on their tesla destructor.

2) The night scythes special rule is there so it can take soldiers without having to hover. Otherwise, it will be useless. Also, its a dedicated transport, so you have to pay for whatever its carrying. So its more like 265 points at least, and that's for a Av11 vehicle. You know what kills AV11? Everything. It does have the hard to hit bonus, which is nice...unless your opponent is packing skyfire/weapons with a high rate of fire, which you should be having in the current ruleset.

3) MSS does not have a 50% chance of working.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

1) Its AP-. Those S7 hits aren't going to do much against that actually has an armor save

Aside from generate lots of hits that wound on a 2+ against most infantry and ID T3 units.

and will do poorly against AV13 and will do nothing against AV14.

While at the same time being exceedingly effective against the far more common AV12 and under type vehicles.

2) The night scythes special rule is there so it can take soldiers without having to hover. Otherwise, it will be useless.

The big issue with the Nightscythe is the effect of negating all harm to embarked units if the transport is destroyed, which is not necessary to make it useful.

Also, its a dedicated transport, so you have to pay for whatever its carrying.

Which really should be contributing to the army as well, so there's not a whole lot wrong there.

So its more like 265 points at least, and that's for a Av11 vehicle.

an AV11 vehicle *and* a squad of infantry. Not a small difference there.

You know what kills AV11? Everything. It does have the hard to hit bonus, which is nice...unless your opponent is packing skyfire/weapons with a high rate of fire

So 1 unit from the IG codex, 1 unit from the Tau codex that really fit both, and a smattering of very expensive low RoF weapons from other books

3) MSS does not have a 50% chance of working.

You're right, it in fact has a greater than 50% chance of working against it's least effective targets (Ld10 units).

 Vaktathi wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote: MSS does not have a 50% chance of working.

You're right, it in fact has a greater than 50% chance of working against it's least effective targets (Ld10 units).

No, exactly 50% should be right on LD10. 3d6 gives a result from 3-18. Half of those numbers will work on LD10.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote: MSS does not have a 50% chance of working.

You're right, it in fact has a greater than 50% chance of working against it's least effective targets (Ld10 units).

No, exactly 50% should be right on LD10. 3d6 gives a result from 3-18. Half of those numbers will work on LD10.

you're right, rounding error on my part, average is 10.5 which I rounded to 11.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Aside from generate lots of hits that wound on a 2+ against most infantry and ID T3 units.

How many T3 models are there that would care about being ID? Plus: An AB gets like, iirc, 6 hits in per shot, which results in 5 wounds, then come the, most of the time, 3+ saves thus on average, you get about 1.p6 dead Marines per turn. On the other hand, if 1 lascannon hits the thing, it's likely to immediately blow up. +3 on the wounding chart, bam. Even a Weapon Destroyed result has a 50% chance to make the model useless for the remainder of the game.

While at the same time being exceedingly effective against the far more common AV12 and under type vehicles.

It's good for killing light transports. Like a lot of other things.

The big issue with the Nightscythe is the effect of negating all harm to embarked units if the transport is destroyed, which is not necessary to make it useful.

The flyer gets into play, at best, in turn 2, if it then gets shot down, its content gets into play by turn 3, which means that the content missed about 50% of the game and has to footslog to the enemy...sure, not being destroyed sounds good at first. But on the other hand, it's not that awesome either unless you planned to use the content to secure your home objective.

You know what kills AV11? Everything. It does have the hard to hit bonus, which is nice...unless your opponent is packing skyfire/weapons with a high rate of fire So 1 unit from the IG codex, 1 unit from the Tau codex that really fit both, and a smattering of very expensive low RoF weapons from other books

Are you kidding? Are we talking about the same army that currently has the, by far, most overpowered model in the entire game in its codex? You can have our Doomscythes anyday if we get your Vendettas please. Helldrakes? A lot of stuff Tau can pack? Havocs? Aegis Defense LIne? Sigh.

@sigvatr a lascannon penning an anni barge only has +2 to the damage result. Unless lascannons became AP1 while I wasn't looking or AP2 suddenly adds another point now. AP2-+1, open topped +1.

I know it's only a 16% difference but its still there.

Necrons would be the perfectly balanced codex if not for one thing, a flyer as a troop transport. Other than that almost every unit has perfect balance. Only a few things suck, lychguard, praetorians, c'tan, monolith, and doomsday ark(only because the heavy slot has so many other amazing things in it). Overall its a codex GW could study and learn a thing or two from.

I can't actually believe I read someone complaining that the AB is not good enough, it is a f*&king benchmark for efficiency all models should be so perfectly balanced in price and utility.

Quick note - Wraiths can't get an extra attack by taking a pistol, to whoever made that comment. :p

The only OP list is the max AB + NS + 3 x Wraith units with DL

But if your buddy only ever plays that list well....

It really is just a net / tournament list anyway IMO.

They are a powerful codex, with a few VERY good units, but mostly they are very forgiving to mistakes (as are a few other armies, but crons are more so) - thus seem stronger than they are.

Leverage the fact that most of their weapons are short range, thus force them to make deployment choices where they any one part of your forces cannot be targeted by the majority of theirs.

Play smart, work toward objectives, and kill entire units at a time.

Sigvatr wrote:

How many T3 models are there that would care about being ID?

Admittedly not a huge number, but it's there.

Plus: An AB gets like, iirc, 6 hits in per shot, which results in 5 wounds, then come the, most of the time, 3+ saves thus on average, you get about 1.p6 dead Marines per turn.

Which is also about equal to what you'd get from a quad setup of BS4 Heavy Bolters. Are they the most murderously effective MEQ killers in the game? No. Are they particularly bad at it? No. For 90pts, that's not bad at all considering how much fire other units often require to get the same damage output.

On the other hand, if 1 lascannon hits the thing, it's likely to immediately blow up. +3 on the wounding chart, bam.

Huh? First it only has a 1/3 chance to pen (and thus, have anything to do with the damage charge) if it still has its shields, then it only gets +2 on the chart (AP2 and Open Topped), not a +3, unless I'm missing something.

Even a Weapon Destroyed result has a 50% chance to make the model useless for the remainder of the game.

That's true of many if not most gun-tanks. Basilisks, Vindicators, Fire Prisms, Hammerheads, Leman Russ tanks that didn't buy sponsons, Vypers, Sentinels, etc. It's not unique by any means to Annihilation Barges.

It's good for killing light transports. Like a lot of other things.

Yes, it just happens to be more than 90pts good at it.

The flyer gets into play, at best, in turn 2, if it then gets shot down, its content gets into play by turn 3, which means that the content missed about 50% of the game and has to footslog to the enemy...sure, not being destroyed sounds good at first. But on the other hand, it's not that awesome either unless you planned to use the content to secure your home objective.

Which is often really important, and that's 3-5 turns to hoof it to another objective. It's far more lenient than an S10 AP2 hit to every model embarked.

Are you kidding? Are we talking about the same army that currently has the, by far, most overpowered model in the entire game in its codex?

Yes, the Vendetta is ridiculous which nobody will argue, but they're alos much more restricted in terms of how many you can effectively take. I will however take issue with the point that there's tons of weapons that will routinely carve Scythe's out of the sky on a regular basis, there's a small handful. It's not unique to Necrons, but they can take the largest number of independent flyers in the game so they are the ones where it's the greatest issue.

Helldrakes? A lot of stuff Tau can pack? Havocs? Aegis Defense LIne? Sigh.

Helldrakes without the Autocannon aren't stupendous at it and would likely prefer to generally target infantry instead. Aegis lines? We're talking one gun there that's got a merely decent chance. Tau have a couple of decent counters, but they have to custom build them and that Skyfire upgrade isn't cheap. That's part of the problem with Flyers in general, which Necrons are really able to exploit. The other best counters are other Necron armies with their own quantities of flyers and Tesla weapons.


It's not just any one thing that makes Necrons as powerful in the metagame as they are right now, it's multiple things that synergize with each other really well. Great flyers that mitigate bad things about being flyers, Tesla weapons generating tons of hits on 6's making Snapfire a minor inconvenience instead of a Hail Mary, MSS and Crypteks taking huge advantage of the new character rules, Wargear and HQ's being able to take more advantage of Nightfight than any other army (I've seen a Necron army keep an opponent under Nightfight conditions for an entire game at least twice, Stormlord's ability lasted out to turn 3, Crypteks keep it going on opponents turn until Nightfight kicked in the last few turns).

Kangodo wrote:
No, they are not imbalanced.
If I know that 20 Warriors can kill a Land Raider, than I keep my LR as far away as possible from those warriors.

And 20 warriors are "easily" countered.
If they make a fallback move, they don't reanimate.
You can easily get a Sweeping Advance and destroy them.

Cron-range is usually 24"
Stuff like Vindicators can easily take out a large portion of their army after which you send it troops to clear them.

And 2+-saves is dangerous to them, we hardly have anything against that.

Well, Necrons have a counter for this.
A Night Scythe can transport up to 15 models and can bring them quickly into the enemy back field. So your Vindicator or LR will not be safe. The Vindicator would be a high priority target. Necrons can make short work with such a tank by side shots from tesla annihilators fired from Night/Doom Scythes. Doom Scythes even have an S10 ray that can hardly be countered.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Necrons have a counter for this.
A Night Scythe can transport up to 15 models and can bring them quickly into the enemy back field. So your Vindicator or LR will not be safe. The Vindicator would be a high priority target. Necrons can make short work with such a tank by side shots from tesla annihilators fired from Night/Doom Scythes. Doom Scythes even have an S10 ray that can hardly be countered.

Ally In some Tau.

Necron NS dies the turn it comes in (opponents turn).

15 models go back into reserve and miss half the game.

Win.

bodazoka wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Necrons have a counter for this.
A Night Scythe can transport up to 15 models and can bring them quickly into the enemy back field. So your Vindicator or LR will not be safe. The Vindicator would be a high priority target. Necrons can make short work with such a tank by side shots from tesla annihilators fired from Night/Doom Scythes. Doom Scythes even have an S10 ray that can hardly be countered.

Ally In some Tau.

Necron NS dies the turn it comes in (opponents turn).

15 models go back into reserve and miss half the game.

Win.

Tau are a different story if you play Necrons. Frankly, I have not yet faced the new Tau. But any army can have a hard time when the Necrons manage to get into the 24'' range.

Necron player checking in, and there are definitely elements of the codex that can be abused: flyerspam, wraith spam, and the unfunness of Mindshackle Scarabs.

That said, if you're playing socially and your friend busts that out, he's not playing for fun. The same could be said of Psycannon spam Grey Knights, triple Heldrake Chaos Marines, and certain other lists.

As a necron player who doesn't abuse those things (but who does use Annihilation Barges, resurrection orbs, and one flyer) there are certain things I find tough.

Lots of ork boyz and looters. Lots of firewarrior. Missilesides. Tough infantry that I can't afford to ignore (e.g. plague marines). Scatter laser war walkers hurt. Dark Angels with a standard of devastation.

Even AV14 can be a pain. Sure, if you slowly trundle your Land Raider up to 20 warriors (in to rapid fire range) they have a 66% chance of glancing it to death in one volley. Outisde of rapid fire range the chances of pulling that off is only 17%. Once they can destroy the land raider, you're probably close enough that you can mulch the warriors with whatever you had in it anyway. And 20 warriors plus a res orb with a body to carry it is - at a minimum - 325 points. And you never had to bring your land raider anywhere near it.

MSS is a perfect peice of wargear it punishes your opponent the more douchey he makes his characters.

Necrons and Tau have epic good battles with the new codex. Two of the strongest shooting armies in the game.

tgf wrote:
MSS is a perfect peice of wargear it punishes your opponent the more douchey he makes his characters.

Necrons and Tau have epic good battles with the new codex. Two of the strongest shooting armies in the game.

Yes, because buying my captain a power sword or using a character to change the composition of my army is "douchey". It's just a kind of mean spirited upgrade. If it caused them to punch themselves in the face on a regular leadership test instead of a 3d6 one, I wouldn't mind it as much. Anything that takes control of your units away from you isn't a fun game mechanic if you ask me.

tgf wrote:
MSS is a perfect peice of wargear it punishes your opponent the more douchey he makes his characters.

And the non-douchey characters that 95% of the playerbase runs have to deal with that...why? Hell, many of the "douchey" characters aren't even that killy. This is a ridiculous line of reasoning to justify MSS.

Most SM-chapters have a sergeant in the squad where they attach the HQ.
So the sergeant can always take the challenge

Kangodo wrote:
Most SM-chapters have a sergeant in the squad where they attach the HQ.
So the sergeant can always take the challenge

For all of one round of combat. While most Necron units will fold after a turn in assault, a unit with a Necron Lord of some sort attached is probably a lot scarier. Even then, sometimes the Lords run around on their own, so either the rest of the squad is diddling around while one character challenges (or has to for Chaos Marines) or he's having your killy dudes attack their own squad or something. Mind Shackle Scarabs are a pretty obnoxious upgrade.

 Brother SRM wrote:
For all of one round of combat. While most Necron units will fold after a turn in assault, a unit with a Necron Lord of some sort attached is probably a lot scarier.

I think you meant to say: "Less of a joke."
And yeah, when I put 100 points in a model to stop my 20 warriors from getting "gakked in the gak" in melee, then the least I expect is that it doesn't suck in melee. (because that is kinda the point of this model!)

Even then, sometimes the Lords run around on their own, so either the rest of the squad is diddling around while one character challenges (or has to for Chaos Marines) or he's having your killy dudes attack their own squad or something. Mind Shackle Scarabs are a pretty obnoxious upgrade.

It are 15 points for a 50% chance with an average of 2 attacks against their own squad.

It's a real fluffy upgrade and it's quite good if you want to waste points on lords instead of crypteks.

 Brother SRM wrote:

tgf wrote:
MSS is a perfect peice of wargear it punishes your opponent the more douchey he makes his characters.

Necrons and Tau have epic good battles with the new codex. Two of the strongest shooting armies in the game.

Yes, because buying my captain a power sword or using a character to change the composition of my army is "douchey". It's just a kind of mean spirited upgrade. If it caused them to punch themselves in the face on a regular leadership test instead of a 3d6 one, I wouldn't mind it as much. Anything that takes control of your units away from you isn't a fun game mechanic if you ask me.

Case in point, Yuri's Revenge.

Fighting an army whose ENTIRE GIMMICK is mind control.

That was ungodly painful even in a game where you can produce units.

lol people are actually trying to argue that Annihilation Barges, Night Scythes, and MSS aren't extremely strong? I guess I've seen everything now.

Kangodo wrote:
I think you meant to say: "Less of a joke."

T5, potentially 2+/3++, and the obligatory S7 AP1 Warscythe, not exactly a weak dumpling there.

And yeah, when I put 100 points in a model to stop my 20 warriors from getting "gakked in the gak" in melee, then the least I expect is that it doesn't suck in melee. (because that is kinda the point of this model!)

There's a difference between putting some CC power in a squad and turning an opponents power back on itself, and that's the issue here.

It are 15 points for a 50% chance with an average of 2 attacks against their own squad.

And forfeitting all attacks against the enemy, likely with the only model that has any meaningful striking power, and not everything is Ld10.

It's a real fluffy upgrade and it's quite good if you want to waste points on lords instead of crypteks.

Fluffy is entirely debateable. Of course it's a good upgrade because it removes your opponents hidden fist or their killy HQ from the combat equation at least half the time if not more and isn't exactly putting much stress on the list at 15pts.

I'm sorry, but saying that MSS aren't very strong or even "fluff" or even a "waste of points" kinda makes you look...funny...I mean, 50% chance to automatically win a challenge at 15 pts alone would be awesome, but even w/o challenges, getting people to hit themselves is damn good especially with Force weapons etc.

 Vaktathi wrote:
T5, potentially 2+/3++, and the obligatory S7 AP1 Warscythe, not exactly a weak dumpling there.

That's why I didn't call him weak.
It's actually a right amount of power that I expect from a model that is 150 points.

There's a difference between putting some CC power in a squad and turning an opponents power back on itself, and that's the issue here.

1. Around 50% chance.
2. Only D3 attacks.
3. This is how Necrons melee, they hardly have anything else. It's what the entire race is all about: Using technology.

And forfeiting all attacks against the enemy, likely with the only model that has any meaningful striking power, and not everything is Ld10.

Then you have a few options:
A) Shoot the Lord first.
B) Don't accept the challenge.
C) Charge something else.
Your pick!
I'd go with option D: Charge nevertheless, kick their ass, destroy the entire unit and accept that it won't be without casualties because he spent 150 units to make a 260-pnt unit less sucky in melee.

Fluffy is entirely debateable. Of course it's a good upgrade because it removes your opponents hidden fist or their killy HQ from the combat equation at least half the time if not more and isn't exactly putting much stress on the list at 15pts.

Why isn't it fluffy?
Necron fight by using gadgets.
MSS is one of the coolest gadgets they have.

The problem with MSS is a Necron-problem in general.
To make your entire unit less sucky in melee you need to: Take a (named) Overlord to open up for Royal Court > Take a Lord > Use the mandatory upgrades for the Lord > Attach MSS to the Lord.
And they will probably still lose in melee, despite all the points you've put in them.

Have you ever seen what 5 terminators can do against 2x20 Necron Warriors if you don't attach Lords?
I forgot to add them once and it was brutal.

I'd buy the notion that MSS is a countermeasure as necrons are bad at CC... if we didn't have warscythe as well, against marines who have to strike at I1 for AP2, our warscythe HQ has a good chance at chopping that sarge down before he even strikes, and that's a decent assault sarge being chopped down by the "weak CC" necron... And "weak CC" necrons also have the wraiths... so yeah.

And for comparison's sake... My 160pts archon is T3, 2++, S3 AP2 ID sword, with high WS and high I, high WS isn't that great, the WS table is crap... High I is good, but everything is lost when I roll that to-wound table with a S3(6+ on an overlord, mind you), and there really aren't that many character in necron army I could pick off for my soul trap. So if for 150pts, you expect a HQ that can make the opponent's HQ kill himself, and then make high strength AP1 attacks, as well as being able to get back up at a 50% chance(res orb included), then what should I expect for my 160pts archon? I believe marines have to pay through their nose for a good combat HQ as well... 150pts only make overlord seems like an even better HQ rather than make it seems "reasonable"...

It's absurd how much people are trying to downplay necrons' strength/overpowerness, it kinda reminds me of how the privileged like to play that they're the 99%! I play necrons too, and I would never ever downplay how strong our army is. It's not uncounterable, obviously, throw in a decent flyer defence force, and the flyers are gone. Don't get into CC with the MSS lord, then those points are wasted. et cetera. But necron codex is still miles better than most out there. Is it "imbalanced" though? Well, of course it isn't our codex is very balanced! What is "imbalanced" is how outdated some codices are, how Mat Ward writes, and update necrons with more favourable rules each FAQ update. Just admit we're the current favourite of GW, there's no shame in that, it's not our fault that we're lovable!

Who said MSS isn't good, its awesome. Seems like there is a whole lot of MSS butt hurt in this thread. I got an idea, don't be stupid, have sarge with his 2 CCW attacks take the challenge while your blender character runs up the score in CC so you can break and run down. MSS is hardly broke, its just really really good against people who can't think outside the box, and are used to scripted play. It breaks the monotony.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It might be a little on the cheap side, but hey so is psybolt ammo, and runes of warding, every army gets a little gift in their wargear.