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skyfi wrote: I believe it does have rifling. I think they described it as rather poor quality rifling leading to poor accuracy, but rifling none the less?
"it's illegal for anybody to "manufacture, import, sell, ship, deliver, possess, transfer or receive" a firearm that can't be detected once its grips, stocks and magazines are removed."
the liberator is designed with a 6 oz piece of metal in the stock (epoxied in so irremovable)... so how is this applicable? (i understand it would be illegal to produce one without the steel inside of it. the steel chunk inside of it is what makes it compliant with the aforementioned law I believe.)
The rifling, and the quality thereof, may be the deciding factor in whether or not the firearm is legal. If the rifling is of poor quality then its hard to argue that it has a sports or competitive shooting application. Also without iron sights, or the ability to mount optics this becomes even more of a hurdle.
I didn't know that about the liberator, I was basing my observations off the video and the pictures concerning the firearm produced from the OP which appears to be almost entirely plastic.
skyfi wrote: I believe it does have rifling. I think they described it as rather poor quality rifling leading to poor accuracy, but rifling none the less?
"it's illegal for anybody to "manufacture, import, sell, ship, deliver, possess, transfer or receive" a firearm that can't be detected once its grips, stocks and magazines are removed."
the liberator is designed with a 6 oz piece of metal in the stock (epoxied in so irremovable)... so how is this applicable? (i understand it would be illegal to produce one without the steel inside of it. the steel chunk inside of it is what makes it compliant with the aforementioned law I believe.)
The rifling, and the quality thereof, may be the deciding factor in whether or not the firearm is legal. If the rifling is of poor quality then its hard to argue that it has a sports or competitive shooting application. Also without iron sights, or the ability to mount optics this becomes even more of a hurdle. I didn't know that about the liberator, I was basing my observations off the video and the pictures concerning the firearm produced from the OP which appears to be almost entirely plastic.
the liberator is what is pictured. & you're pretty much right, it's almost entirely plastic, aside from the firing pin, and the 6 oz chunk of steel insert for compliance with non detectable weapon act.
a rail where sights could be added on, is very possible. I don't necessarily understand the requirement that sights be "iron" though.
I don't think it necessarily has to be a sporting firearm for an individual to legally produce one without a serial #. I suppose that is the answer I have been trying to find. I'm found it explicitly stated its OK to produce a sporting firearm without a serial # for personal use, and I have found it explicitly stated its OK to produce a "firearm" for your own personal use ....
hell i just wiki'd it and think I answered it for myself.
"The law also required that all newly-manufactured firearms produced by licensed manufacturers in the United States and imported into the United States bear a serial number. Firearms manufactured prior to the Gun Control Act and firearms manufactured by non-FFLs remain exempt from the serial number requirement. Defacement or removal of the serial number (if present) is a felony offense."
more or less if you are an unlicensed individual manufacturing a firearm for your own use, no legal requirement for a serial number. If you put one on it, and remove it, it becomes felonious. Or that is how I'm seeing it?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/07 15:41:20
skyfi wrote: the liberator is what is pictured. & you're pretty much right, it's almost entirely plastic, aside from the firing pin, and the 6 oz chunk of steel insert for compliance with non detectable weapon act.
a rail where sights could be added on, is very possible. I don't necessarily understand the requirement that sights be "iron" though.
I don't think it necessarily has to be a sporting firearm for an individual to legally produce one without a serial #. I suppose that is the answer I have been trying to find. I'm found it explicitly stated its OK to produce a sporting firearm without a serial # for personal use, and I have found it explicitly stated its OK to produce a "firearm" for your own personal use ....
But this still does not get around the issue of the rifling and the accuracy of the firearm in question, which may have a direct bearing as to whether it is prohibited or not.
skyfi wrote: hell i just wiki'd it and think I answered it for myself.
"The law also required that all newly-manufactured firearms produced by licensed manufacturers in the United States and imported into the United States bear a serial number. Firearms manufactured prior to the Gun Control Act and firearms manufactured by non-FFLs remain exempt from the serial number requirement. Defacement or removal of the serial number (if present) is a felony offense."
more or less if you are an unlicensed individual manufacturing a firearm for your own use, no legal requirement for a serial number. If you put one on it, and remove it, it becomes felonious. Or that is how I'm seeing it?
If you are an unlicensed individual manufacturing firearms are you not already falling foul of the law? Genuine question because I don't know
Only firearms manufactured prior to 1968 (year of the Gun Control Act) are exempt from the serial number requirement. It appears that anything lawfully produced after this date must have a serial number. So on reading that it would appear that a firearm produced using a 3D printer would need a serial number as it was manufactured before the commencement of the 1968 Act
skyfi wrote: the liberator is what is pictured. & you're pretty much right, it's almost entirely plastic, aside from the firing pin, and the 6 oz chunk of steel insert for compliance with non detectable weapon act.
a rail where sights could be added on, is very possible. I don't necessarily understand the requirement that sights be "iron" though.
I don't think it necessarily has to be a sporting firearm for an individual to legally produce one without a serial #. I suppose that is the answer I have been trying to find. I'm found it explicitly stated its OK to produce a sporting firearm without a serial # for personal use, and I have found it explicitly stated its OK to produce a "firearm" for your own personal use ....
But this still does not get around the issue of the rifling and the accuracy of the firearm in question, which may have a direct bearing as to whether it is prohibited or not.
I don't think that a determinable level of accuracy is a defining characteristic of a legally produced firearm. It's a sensible demand in the market, which is rewarded through purchases I believe... but I don't know of a legal requirement for rifling specifically so I'm all thumbs here.. Shotguns, rifles, etc all rifled differently, so are legal short barreled shotgun-pistols (whatever they actually called) like the "Taurus Judge"... Pretty sure they are rifled, put done so in a way that the "spread" is about 20"~ diameter at 48" distance of firing... while the rifling in a traditional shotgun produces a similar spread (not exactly), but with a much larger distance required.
skyfi wrote: hell i just wiki'd it and think I answered it for myself.
"The law also required that all newly-manufactured firearms produced by licensed manufacturers in the United States and imported into the United States bear a serial number. Firearms manufactured prior to the Gun Control Act and firearms manufactured by non-FFLs remain exempt from the serial number requirement. Defacement or removal of the serial number (if present) is a felony offense."
more or less if you are an unlicensed individual manufacturing a firearm for your own use, no legal requirement for a serial number. If you put one on it, and remove it, it becomes felonious. Or that is how I'm seeing it?
If you are an unlicensed individual manufacturing firearms are you not already falling foul of the law? Genuine question because I don't know
Only firearms manufactured prior to 1968 (year of the Gun Control Act) are exempt from the serial number requirement. It appears that anything lawfully produced after this date must have a serial number. So on reading that it would appear that a firearm produced using a 3D printer would need a serial number as it was manufactured before the commencement of the 1968 Act
I think you are misreading the law. I may be missing something though. I'll quote wiki on it again "The law also required that all newly-manufactured firearms produced by licensed manufacturers in the United States and imported into the United States bear a serial number. Firearms manufactured prior to the Gun Control Act and firearms manufactured by non-FFLs remain exempt from the serial number requirement. Defacement or removal of the serial number (if present) is a felony offense."
Seems to me, the law only requires licensed firearm manufacturers to employ a serial number. Not unlicensed firearm manufacturers. They are explicitly exempt.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Yeah, no more difficult than putting one on a normal gun. Although being plastic it would be easier to remove, but only slightly.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Kilkrazy wrote: It wouldn't be hard to put a serial number on the 3D gun.
wouldn't be hard at all. if these guys sell their designs online they will have to put serial #s on them to do biz legally. If they allow anybody who owns a 3d printer to have access to their files, to print a gun for their own personal use, no serial # is required by law as far as I can tell. They could probably even find a loophole where they could sell an individual "access" to the file to print their own gun, without a serial # under the current law, it would seem.
but I'm no lawyer.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grey Templar wrote: Yeah, no more difficult than putting one on a normal gun. Although being plastic it would be easier to remove, but only slightly.
but just as felonious!
and un-unnecessary if your print the thing yourself...
which lends the Q...
Could you RENT your machine to a 3rd party and let them "manufacture" their own gun by hitting "print" on YOUR machine which has been contractually rented?
That is one way route I think people will take in an attempt to get non-serial # containing guns into the hands of 3rd parties for profit. (if they really wanted to get all shady about stuff and operate under the law)
Not that its really economical, sensible, or anything, but seems like a possibly legal loophole?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/07 16:23:40
skyfi wrote: Seems to me, the law only requires licensed firearm manufacturers to employ a serial number. Not unlicensed firearm manufacturers. They are explicitly exempt.
I could have mis-read it. What way does it work for unlicensed firearm manufacturers in the US? How do they get set up, are there limits on their activities and what they can produce etc.
Could you RENT your machine to a 3rd party and let them "manufacture" their own gun by hitting "print" on YOUR machine which has been contractually rented?
That is one way route I think people will take in an attempt to get non-serial # containing guns into the hands of 3rd parties for profit. (if they really wanted to get all shady about stuff and operate under the law)
Not that its really economical, sensible, or anything, but seems like a possibly legal loophole?
That may depend on prior knowledge and reasonable suspicion of whether or not you were enabling someone to break the law. You could potentially be charged with assisting in the commission of a criminal act.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/07 16:27:40
I do believe you have to be licensed to be a manufacturer in the US. I could be wrong but type 6 and type 7 seem appropriate here. i forget which poster is going for their gunsmith license and would be far more knowedgeable so will bow to them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Firearms_License
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/07 16:31:50
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
There's no "setup" required to make your own gun in the USA... (for your own use) as far as I know. (barring you aren't making a weapon that contains prohibited mechanisms or whatever, such as full auto, short barrel shotgun etc)
Look at the link someone posted to the chap who made a ak47 from a $2 shovel....... lots of people make their own guns for their own use..
The only reason you would need a setup, and or licensing from my understanding is if you were actually SELLING/TRANSFERING ownership of the firearms you are producing.
NO FFL is required to sell guns in state from your own collection. Only if you buy and sell as a business platform.
So in short, it seems, you could legally print your own gun, with no serial number, or any licensing or setup.. AS LONG AS YOU DONT SELL OR TRANSFER A FIREARM YOU PRODUCE.. Doing so would get you in heaps of trouble.
skyfi wrote: Seems to me, the law only requires licensed firearm manufacturers to employ a serial number. Not unlicensed firearm manufacturers. They are explicitly exempt.
I could have mis-read it. What way does it work for unlicensed firearm manufacturers in the US? How do they get set up, are there limits on their activities and what they can produce etc.
Could you RENT your machine to a 3rd party and let them "manufacture" their own gun by hitting "print" on YOUR machine which has been contractually rented?
That is one way route I think people will take in an attempt to get non-serial # containing guns into the hands of 3rd parties for profit. (if they really wanted to get all shady about stuff and operate under the law)
Not that its really economical, sensible, or anything, but seems like a possibly legal loophole?
That may depend on prior knowledge and reasonable suspicion of whether or not you were enabling someone to break the law. You could potentially be charged with assisting in the commission of a criminal act.
I think that would be the only route that could pursue you, and it seems like a difficult case to make. It is a possibility that something like this could come to fruition which is what has sparked my interest.
@ frazz, I think kalish is the resident-gun-smith-in-training at dakka, or from my fuzzy memory thats whom I'm thinking it is, so curious to hear more of his take on the matter.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/05/07 16:43:07
skyfi wrote: I think you guys are getting mixed up.
There's no "setup" required to make your own gun in the USA... (for your own use) as far as I know. (barring you aren't making a weapon that contains prohibited mechanisms or whatever, such as full auto, short barrel shotgun etc)
... or, relevant here, a weapon which has so little metal as to be undetectable. Which is currently illegal, and thus why a plastic gun is not legal-- it has to have some metal parts.
If it has enough metal to be detectable to a metal detector, it's legal, although those that want to manufacture and sell them need a manufacturer's license.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/07 16:47:47
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Yeah plastic guns will be illegal, but not because people could potentially make them without a permit.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: Yeah plastic guns will be illegal, but not because people could potentially make them without a permit.
Will be? They already are.
As you said earlier, there's really no need for additional regulation here. The big worry with plastic guns is that they're almost impossible to detect with non-invasive searches. As such, anyone who makes one, no matter if they're a big manufacturer or a person who bought a 3d printer as a hobby item, is breaking the law as it currently stands.
Anyone who adds enough unremovable metal to the gun to make it detectable by a metal detector isn't breaking the law, which is how the guy in the OP got away with it. But I should remind you that the government will be VERY willing to prosecute the first person to break the law with a 3d printer-- and prosecute HARD, making it a major case and using it to intimidate others in to not doing it..
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/05/07 16:51:33
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Well, "will" meaning future tense as in when they exist in numbers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/07 16:52:35
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
With how this is being publicized, it won't take long before some idiot gives them the chance.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
skyfi wrote: I think you guys are getting mixed up.
There's no "setup" required to make your own gun in the USA... (for your own use) as far as I know. (barring you aren't making a weapon that contains prohibited mechanisms or whatever, such as full auto, short barrel shotgun etc)
... or, relevant here, a weapon which has so little metal as to be undetectable. Which is currently illegal, and thus why a plastic gun is not legal-- it has to have some metal parts.
If it has enough metal to be detectable to a metal detector, it's legal, although those that want to manufacture and sell them need a manufacturer's license.
I'm kind of unsure why you stated this.
I have clearly stated that it required a METAL shank (WHICH THE LIBERATOR PLANS INCLUDE) to be compliant with the undetectable firearms act...
What you said was in a similar vein to "well if you make a semi automatic gun, thats legal... but if you make a full automatic, its illegal.... No offense but duh! that's why that part of the plans (the metal shank) exists. To be compliant with the law. Of course if you don't include this metal shank you will be producing an illegal firearm.... Thats pretty clearly evident.
Because people have tried to argue in this thread taht it is legal. Re-iterating the requirements of its legality is important to dispel that illusion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/07 17:00:03
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
skyfi wrote: I think you guys are getting mixed up.
There's no "setup" required to make your own gun in the USA... (for your own use) as far as I know. (barring you aren't making a weapon that contains prohibited mechanisms or whatever, such as full auto, short barrel shotgun etc)
Look at the link someone posted to the chap who made a ak47 from a $2 shovel....... lots of people make their own guns for their own use..
The only reason you would need a setup, and or licensing from my understanding is if you were actually SELLING/TRANSFERING ownership of the firearms you are producing.
NO FFL is required to sell guns in state from your own collection. Only if you buy and sell as a business platform.
So in short, it seems, you could legally print your own gun, with no serial number, or any licensing or setup.. AS LONG AS YOU DONT SELL OR TRANSFER A FIREARM YOU PRODUCE.. Doing so would get you in heaps of trouble.
skyfi wrote: Seems to me, the law only requires licensed firearm manufacturers to employ a serial number. Not unlicensed firearm manufacturers. They are explicitly exempt.
I could have mis-read it. What way does it work for unlicensed firearm manufacturers in the US? How do they get set up, are there limits on their activities and what they can produce etc.
Could you RENT your machine to a 3rd party and let them "manufacture" their own gun by hitting "print" on YOUR machine which has been contractually rented?
That is one way route I think people will take in an attempt to get non-serial # containing guns into the hands of 3rd parties for profit. (if they really wanted to get all shady about stuff and operate under the law)
Not that its really economical, sensible, or anything, but seems like a possibly legal loophole?
That may depend on prior knowledge and reasonable suspicion of whether or not you were enabling someone to break the law. You could potentially be charged with assisting in the commission of a criminal act.
I think that would be the only route that could pursue you, and it seems like a difficult case to make. It is a possibility that something like this could come to fruition which is what has sparked my interest.
@ frazz, I think kalish is the resident-gun-smith-in-training at dakka, or from my fuzzy memory thats whom I'm thinking it is, so curious to hear more of his take on the matter.
Agreed. He would be better. I think the issue of whether you can make a firearm for sale in the home state and not be subject to federal law is EXTREMELY tenuous right now. I think there were cases pending or adjudicated recently that kicked previous attempts aside. I could be wrong, but I don't think thats the case. Its easy to research I just haven't checked into it much at all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/07 17:11:17
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Well if you don't sell over state lines the federal government can't use that lovely interstate commerce clause to get you at the very least.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
I swear I explained this briefly earlier. It is legal in the United States for you to manufacture firearms for your own personal use, these 3D printer guns included, passing muster with the undetectable fireams act and the NFA are all that are required. This is for sure, tested and certified, ATF approved Federal law. However the SECOND you do something that resembles being in business, for example selling a weapon, you need to have a manufacturing permit or face the legal dropkick of the ATF. They /love/ cases like that. They usually even get to play mall ninja, dress up in masks and kick you door in!
So these pistols do have to follow some other NFA regulations, for example we know the barrels, no matter how gakky they are, are rifled, if they were smooth bores they'd be classified as an SBS (Short Barreled Shotgun)*
Now it is a federal felony to provide weapons to people who cannot legally posses firearms, I believe this includes the means to acquire firearms as well, so lending your 3D printer to a felon, who prints a gun and goes and robs a 7-11 for it, would most likely result in you being put up on charges if DOJ actually started prosecuting crimes like that again.
*Black powder smooth bore muskets are an exemption to this classification, and most firearms laws in the United States, you can even have them mailed to your door!
As to the Interstate Commerce Stuff that's going to court at some point, four or five states have "Weapons made and sold in state aren't the feds bidness" laws, (AZ, Montana, Wyoming, and Kansas off the top of my head) but those laws haven't been court tested yet.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/07 17:13:32
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
The main point is that this just shows how low on the tech food chain guns are.
anyone with a lathe and some sheet metal tools could make an AK, anyone with a CNC machine has been able to use existing plans to "print" 3d metal guns for quite some time,
so the price tag went from a few grand to just over a grand, for a worse product.
people calling for a ban for this gun will end up shooting themselves in the foot if they ever succeeded.
This is because the ban would end up being on the printers themselves since you cannot ban knowledge.
but then, most printers can print their own parts, that is the core ethos of the design.
Maybe now we can stop trying to ban various technologies that cannot be banned and focus on the environment/economy/something productive
Grey Templar wrote: Yeah plastic guns will be illegal, but not because people could potentially make them without a permit.
Will be? They already are.
As you said earlier, there's really no need for additional regulation here. The big worry with plastic guns is that they're almost impossible to detect with non-invasive searches. As such, anyone who makes one, no matter if they're a big manufacturer or a person who bought a 3d printer as a hobby item, is breaking the law as it currently stands.
Anyone who adds enough unremovable metal to the gun to make it detectable by a metal detector isn't breaking the law, which is how the guy in the OP got away with it. But I should remind you that the government will be VERY willing to prosecute the first person to break the law with a 3d printer-- and prosecute HARD, making it a major case and using it to intimidate others in to not doing it..
I don't see "got away with it" when I look at the fellow and his actions. I don't know why you need to state "As such, anyone who makes one, no matter if they're a big manufacturer or a person who bought a 3d printer as a hobby item, is breaking the law as it currently stands."..... Its clearly evident... If you print a gun off and CHOOSE to disobey the written law regarding undetectable weapons, than that's your bad.
Seems pretty cut and dry. Don't break the law and have an example made of yourself.
1. Either get a license, put serial #s on these things and get a FFL..... and sell what you make (terrible idea i would think, think of liability when one blows up)
2. or don't get a license, don't use serial #s, and don't transfer or sell your productions. Build your designs to comply with the law.
or option 3. don't get a license, don't use serial #s, and don't comply with undetectable weapons laws
Grey Templar wrote: Well if you don't sell over state lines the federal government can't use that lovely interstate commerce clause to get you at the very least.
Now this I do know more about. This has been argued repeatedly. In general (as in pretty much always) the argument fails. SCOTUS has determined that EVEN if you grow your own crop for your own food, because it displaces food you could have bought it therefor impacts IC. Yes, thats crazy but once FDR threatened to pack them, they bent over like... well we'll just be polite and say they have been extremely supportive of federal power in this area. There's been some recent cases but I am not sure if that moved the goal post at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KalashnikovMarine wrote: I swear I explained this briefly earlier. It is legal in the United States for you to manufacture firearms for your own personal use, these 3D printer guns included, passing muster with the undetectable fireams act and the NFA are all that are required. This is for sure, tested and certified, ATF approved Federal law. However the SECOND you do something that resembles being in business, for example selling a weapon, you need to have a manufacturing permit or face the legal dropkick of the ATF. They /love/ cases like that. They usually even get to play mall ninja, dress up in masks and kick you door in!
Thanks! That clarifies things.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/07 17:16:36
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
More abuse of that clause in action
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
I am in no way disagreeing with you on that point.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
KalashnikovMarine wrote: I swear I explained this briefly earlier. It is legal in the United States for you to manufacture firearms for your own personal use, these 3D printer guns included, passing muster with the undetectable fireams act and the NFA are all that are required. This is for sure, tested and certified, ATF approved Federal law. However the SECOND you do something that resembles being in business, for example selling a weapon, you need to have a manufacturing permit or face the legal dropkick of the ATF. They /love/ cases like that. They usually even get to play mall ninja, dress up in masks and kick you door in!
So these pistols do have to follow some other NFA regulations, for example we know the barrels, no matter how gakky they are, are rifled, if they were smooth bores they'd be classified as an SBS (Short Barreled Shotgun)*
Now it is a federal felony to provide weapons to people who cannot legally posses firearms, I believe this includes the means to acquire firearms as well, so lending your 3D printer to a felon, who prints a gun and goes and robs a 7-11 for it, would most likely result in you being put up on charges if DOJ actually started prosecuting crimes like that again.
*Black powder smooth bore muskets are an exemption to this classification, and most firearms laws in the United States, you can even have them mailed to your door!
As to the Interstate Commerce Stuff that's going to court at some point, four or five states have "Weapons made and sold in state aren't the feds bidness" laws, (AZ, Montana, Wyoming, and Kansas off the top of my head) but those laws haven't been court tested yet.
thanks kalish.
lets say you rent your 3d printer unknowingly to a felon, or person unauthorized to receive a firearm or means to acquire?
Ignorance of the law is no protection of it, so I'd say you're boned... but if a previously non-criminal rented the machine, printed a gun, and made himself a criminal with the gun he now produced....What legal position is the owner of the 3d printer who rented it to him in? You didn't give a gun, or means to a gun, to a criminal. You had no prior knowledge of his plan of action etc? You gave means to a gun or access to a non-criminal at the time?