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 BryllCream wrote:
No I'm intrigued. You refuted that the Spartan was immune to anti-AV14, and I want you to show me how an Imperial player could destroy it with shooting inside a reasonable time frame.

And I already answered: lascannon spam, assault cannons, psycannons, Manticores, Medusas (especially with bastion breacher shells), LR Vanquishers, dreads/MCs in combat. The Spartan's high price tag means that it's probably the only high-AV target on the table, so you're free to concentrate every anti-tank weapon in your army on it.

Yeah, two vehicles with side 11 are just as durable as an AV 14 that is, as we have established, immune to shooting.

If by "established" you mean "declared it and ignored all counter-examples", I guess you've established it. I guess you're also going to "establish" that you always get to shoot at side armor instead of front armor?

No. I'm paying 75 points for a twin-linked BS4 lascannon on an indestructable chassis. The fact that it can carry units is a bonus. Personally I'd stick a barebones terminator squad with lightening claws inside.

You're paying 75 points more compared to an overpriced and weak unit. Yes it's better than a basic Land Raider, but basic Land Raiders suck.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
I've probably played a couple dozen games with/against Land Raiders. I don't think lascannons or power fists have ever killed any. As far as I'm concerned, and as far as convention on list building goes, no melta = no anti AV 14 and an instant loss against anyone with a Land Raider.

So because you have awful "conventions" about list building a unit is overpowered?

So...if you made a space marine/imperial guard army...you wouldn't include melta? The only real alternative would be allied lances.

Of course I'd include melta. I'd also include Lascannons, and powerfists, and Assault Cannons.

What you need to remember about the Spartan is that it's now 6th edition. I know you Imperial players are used to having access to cheap overpowered guns that can one shot tanks, but think of it how real players have had to. Hit it more than once. This is 6th edition. Spartans have hull points. Strip those hull points with multiple hits.

The Spartan was overcosted in 5th edition already. 6th edition made it, just like all vehicles, even easier to kill.

Peregrine is right - you're confusing your bad list building making something hard for you to deal with, with something actually being hard to deal with.

 BryllCream wrote:

You know, that's almost as good as the six TL LCs (total of 4.5 hits to 3.5 hits for the Spartan) a Vendetta squadron (immune to most melta by being more than 6" away and needing 6s to hit) can bring for 50 points less. Or the two TL LCs and four normal LCs a pair of Predators can bring. The Spartan's firepower only looks good because the basic Land Raider's firepower is such a complete joke.

Yes, Vendettas are broken OP, definitely more OP than the Spartan.

And the Predators are AV 13/11/10. You can't compare that to a 14/14/14.

Predators are incomparable because of their lower armour, but you concede to compare Vendettas which are from a different army, even worse armour, and are flyers.

You need to get a bit more consistent with this.

 BryllCream wrote:

Also, the tank is 315 points, but only if you ignore its transport capacity. If you instead consider the typical unit that would use one you're talking about a 500-1000 point death star, and suddenly melta immunity becomes a lot less relevant since you can deal with it like every other death star by feeding it meatshields every turn and otherwise ignoring it.

It's easy to billitle it if you assume i'd stick a deathstar in it. Assume a load of other stuff too if it helps.

If you're taking an overpriced paperweight of an assault transport that is, according to you, completely OP, why wouldn't you put something in it thats, you know, worth putting in it?

We need a board statistics that show how often these threads show up. FW is OP!...etc. They must be just after;
This ___ is dead, sell your army!!! and
Matt ward committed sodomy on my ___.

Honestly FW are only ever OP when the opponent doesn't know they exist. If they are given the rules and allowed to plan for it then the FW books are about 6th edition codex strength or a bit under it. Compared to 5th edition codices they are noticeably underwhelming.

Eldar corsairs are an awesome list that really shows up the very boring 4th edition eldar codex but is overall weaker than the codex. The jetpack troops are mediocre at best and any barrage weapon or mobile anything will annihilate them utterly. The falcons are still overpriced. The only units that are actually really good are the firedragons (a codex unit but get deep strike from the prince), the warp hunter, and the nightwing. The nightwing is priced almost perfectly as it is significantly worse all around than a vendetta but more expensive. The warp hunter is the vindicator of the eldar; if it gets nearby it is awesome but nobody ever just lets it get nearby and AV 12 skimmers are just not that tough to deal with. Remember that you just need to get a shaken result to close down that turn of shooting and weapon destroyed has a 50% chance of removing the main weapon.

The dreadnought drop pod is cool but not really that good. The dreadnoughts that can use it are not really that good in assault. The entire thing also costs a good chunk of points.

The LR as peregrine has argued is a significant point drain. The tactical impact of this unit is rather negligible unless you put something good in it and then it is a full blown deathstar that moves a max of 12" a turn and can be tarpitted very easily. My normal guard lists usually have the equivalent of ~10ish BS3 TL Lascannons which kill this in 2 turns of firing with 5 glances on average. So I can remove 3 of these with a normal 1500 point list in a 5 turn game where you spent 945 points on them. If you only took 1 then obviously it is not ass good as you are indicating.

The artillery have admittedly been buffed to where they are too cheap for what they do. Though it is kind of redeeming as they were solidly underwhelming previously. They still are not game breaking though and do not compare to the most powerful of the codex units. They also make an IG gunlines even less mobile which can be funny sometimes when they cluster to get the Ld bubble from a LC. This is where that drop pod dreadnought would be awesome.

The Spartan is still in the experimental rules phase, so of course it is badly balanced right now. FW has a history of putting out experimental rules that have some flaws, which are then fixed by the time the rules are properly released. The same thing happened with the Achilles, which was toned down a lot when printed.

I have been playing ABG a fair bit recently, and it is really hard to win with. Enemies either kill all of my troops or get a large number of models in amongst my tanks and destroy them all. I am getting better, but it is far from an OP list.

 Trickstick wrote:
The Spartan is still in the experimental rules phase, so of course it is badly balanced right now.

Nope, it's been published. First in the Heresy book, and now in IA12 with the same rules.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
The Spartan is still in the experimental rules phase, so of course it is badly balanced right now.

Nope, it's been published. First in the Heresy book, and now in IA12 with the same rules.

Dang, I knew that not reading IA12 yet would come back to haunt me. Did it get changed from its experimental version at all?

 Trickstick wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
The Spartan is still in the experimental rules phase, so of course it is badly balanced right now.

Nope, it's been published. First in the Heresy book, and now in IA12 with the same rules.

Dang, I knew that not reading IA12 yet would come back to haunt me. Did it get changed from its experimental version at all?

It got a bit of a buff, and a bit of a nerf. It's about the same really, hard to kill, not a good usage of points unless you really, REALLY want to ram a deathstar down that field, and then you had to pray they didn't have rending, or armourbane, or MC's, or high amounts of S10 shooting, or walkers...

The thing I find funny in these GW models vs FW models is that they are the same thing. A Forgeworld model with Forgeworld rules IS a Games Workshop model with Games Workshop rules.

Bought any Forgeworld models? I have, they come in a box with a Games Workshop invoice in it.

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
The thing I find funny in these GW models vs FW models is that they are the same thing. A Forgeworld model with Forgeworld rules IS a Games Workshop model with Games Workshop rules.

Bought any Forgeworld models? I have, they come in a box with a Games Workshop invoice in it.

Please, don't take the thread in that direction.

Steelmage99 wrote:

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
The thing I find funny in these GW models vs FW models is that they are the same thing. A Forgeworld model with Forgeworld rules IS a Games Workshop model with Games Workshop rules.

Bought any Forgeworld models? I have, they come in a box with a Games Workshop invoice in it.

Please, don't take the thread in that direction.

We've already hit "FW MODELS ARE SOOOOO OP" so why not?

Way I see it, the Orks are so UP at the moment that they need any break they can get. With IA8 they stand a fighting chance.

I mean seriously, there isn't one goddamn Quad Gun equivalent in the entire army without forgeworld.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Way I see it, the Orks are so UP at the moment that they need any break they can get. With IA8 they stand a fighting chance.

I mean seriously, there isn't one goddamn Quad Gun equivalent in the entire army without forgeworld.

IA:A has some flakka trukks, they work very well for orks if you use em, not to mention the flyers from IA:A and the Dakkajet are useful.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
The thing I find funny in these GW models vs FW models is that they are the same thing. A Forgeworld model with Forgeworld rules IS a Games Workshop model with Games Workshop rules.

Bought any Forgeworld models? I have, they come in a box with a Games Workshop invoice in it.

Please, don't take the thread in that direction.

We've already hit "FW MODELS ARE SOOOOO OP" so why not?

Surely you realize that one bad thing shouldn't be used to justify another bad thing.
Also the sentiment you bring up has already been dealt with.

Steelmage99 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
The thing I find funny in these GW models vs FW models is that they are the same thing. A Forgeworld model with Forgeworld rules IS a Games Workshop model with Games Workshop rules.

Bought any Forgeworld models? I have, they come in a box with a Games Workshop invoice in it.

Please, don't take the thread in that direction.

We've already hit "FW MODELS ARE SOOOOO OP" so why not?

Surely you realize that one bad thing shouldn't be used to justify another bad thing.
Also the sentiment you bring up has already been dealt with.

Should've used an Ork Emoticon to show I was being sarcastic.

 Dakkamite wrote:
I mean seriously, there isn't one goddamn Quad Gun equivalent in the entire army without forgeworld.

Can they not take an ADL? I was under the impression that the only army that couldn't use it properly was Tyranids.

If it looks too Imperial, scratchbuild one. I'm sure you have a few shootas around to strap together.

Dakkamite I don't understand your point about the quad-gun, you can take it and even if you couldn't if we're only talking AA then dakkajets are amazing. 110 points!

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
The Spartan is still in the experimental rules phase, so of course it is badly balanced right now.

Nope, it's been published. First in the Heresy book, and now in IA12 with the same rules.

Dang, I knew that not reading IA12 yet would come back to haunt me. Did it get changed from its experimental version at all?

It got a bit of a buff, and a bit of a nerf. It's about the same really, hard to kill, not a good usage of points unless you really, REALLY want to ram a deathstar down that field, and then you had to pray they didn't have rending, or armourbane, or MC's, or high amounts of S10 shooting, or walkers...

That gave me a good laugh. Well played.

It's not that all the FW models are OP, most of them are not that competitive at all, it's just that the ones people take to tournaments are generally OP and they are the only one's you generally see.

Look at IG - vultures, sabre defence platforms and the like. Space marines with the hyperios platforms and contemptor dreads. Total anti-flyer coverage that other codexes just can't meet. Show me the Nid's cost-effective anti-flyer units - oh, there aren't any, best not to give them any FW one's either then and just give more to the already rich. At least codexes give all armies options for each FOC slot - couple of HQs, elites, FA etc. Forgeworld gives one codex about 20 HS choices and 2 or 3 others no HS choices at all. That's an inherent balance issue.

I accept that they do add flavour and variation in lists, but the spam really does need to be calmed down a little.

I love FW stuff. I just got my first order last week and it's great. Minis are awesome, books are awesome and the new units are at least creative and have some interesting mechanics.

That said, I'd never use/accept them in "competitive" play. FW is great for fun/narrative/casual games, but once you bring in the tourney mentality it all goes to hell really quick. No playtesting and internal balance makes Chumby something something.

 ruminator wrote:
It's not that all the FW models are OP, most of them are not that competitive at all, it's just that the ones people take to tournaments are generally OP and they are the only one's you generally see.

The same could be said of Codex units, when was the last time you saw Ogryns, Rough Riders, Ratlings, Deathstrikes, Yarrick, Sentinels, Penal Legion, etc in a tournament?

Look at IG - vultures, sabre defence platforms and the like. Space marines with the hyperios platforms and contemptor dreads. Total anti-flyer coverage that other codexes just can't meet. Show me the Nid's cost-effective anti-flyer units - oh, there aren't any, best not to give them any FW one's either then and just give more to the already rich.

Or you could look at armies like Eldar and Orks, which FW provides AA options where otherwise they have none...

At least codexes give all armies options for each FOC slot - couple of HQs, elites, FA etc. Forgeworld gives one codex about 20 HS choices and 2 or 3 others no HS choices at all. That's an inherent balance issue.

All FW does is expand on what each army can take in each of those slots, they already don't have an equal number of options for each slot...

 Chumbalaya wrote:

That said, I'd never use/accept them in "competitive" play. FW is great for fun/narrative/casual games, but once you bring in the tourney mentality it all goes to hell really quick. No playtesting and internal balance makes Chumby something something.

This is assuming that GW does playtesting and that there's any care about internal balance in Codex books (if it's there, it's minimal) and that FW is any worse at it (it is not).

Oh someone wants a list of overpowered/spammable and garbage GW units huh?

Overpowered/spammable GW Units: Vendettas, Valkyries, Chimeras, Rhinos, Annihilation Barges, Night Scythes, Vulkan He'Stan, Tervigons, Hive Guard, Eldar Farseers, Eldrad, Purifiers, Hell Drakes, MoN Obliterators, Azrael (4++ saves flying out of their butts!), Plague Marines (God damn it just die already!), Noise Marines (like before but with "wait they're HOW shooty?!"), Lootas (Drown in ALL the S7 shots ALL OF THEM! AHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!), Venoms (do you play Tyranids or Daemons? Then you lose! Hahaha), Wracks, Long fangs, Grey Hunters, "What is dying?" Necron Warriors (want that objective? Well feth you then!), GK Stormravens (because that much psy ammunition is hurtful), Dreadknights (haww haww you can't kill us), Thrawn (he'll be contesting that objective until the end of time), Kairos with just the right rolls (and he already has like all the powers anyway), Plaguebearers (shooting? Feth that noise), Necron vehicles when used for the AV13 wall o doom (how much anti-tank do you have? Doesn't matter, it won't be enough!), MISSILESIDES EVERYWHERE (Did you plan on flying today? Too bad), Boyz (still the best and most spammable troops for their cost), Gargoyles (This bucket is for my dice, this bucket is for your tears as I eat your MCs).

Underpowered/overpriced/too damn situational/overshadowed by awesome GW units: Ogryns, Ratlings, Tyranid Warriors, Carnifexes, Tyrannofexes, Mandrakes (what do YOUR mandrakes count as?), Thousand Sons, Bloodcrushers, Honor Guard, Howling Banshees, Talos Pain engines (this, or more Ravagers?), anything in the SoB dex that isn't called an Exorcist, anything in the Black Templars dex period, Blood Claws, Genestealers (glorified broodlord escorts! WONDERFUL!), Shrikes, Raveners, Spore mines, Harpies, Dreadnoughts that aren't of the "suicide multimelta" or "stationary autocannon" variety, Deff Dreads, Flayed Ones, Praetorians, Vanguards, Sentinels (They could work, but on the other hand you could buy more Vendettas), Paladins (no more musical wounds makes for a sad GK player), Flamers (not only are they unlikely to hurt MEQs in the first place, they're also likely to give them stackable FNP, enjoy fighting invincible plague marines), Horrors (pretty much before, but screwing with powers also screws you), Chaos Spawn (no longer terrible in the CSM dex, but why aren't you buying more helldrakes?), Forgefiends (why aren't you buying more Obliterators?), Rough Riders (Hahahahahaha no), Flash gitz, Old One eye (who's a pile of crap that nobody will buy? OLD ONE EYE! Expensive and pointless is he! OLD ONE EYE!)

Pit of shame: Pyrovores (This is it, this is rock bottom, this is the absolute lowest you can sink to, congratulations, you are so iredeemably bad that nobody can figure out why you even exist. You are so bad that even in the fluff you are made fun of when people remember you exist. This is the big one, the gakstain that shall forever mark the game as the utter bottom of the barrel. This my friends, is the Pyrovore.)

So may the FW haters finally shut up about "omg OP!" Because if anything, FW is much better than it's parent company at balance.

I sense much hostility in you, Kain.

Yesss... Embrace it!

Not worth arguing, I'll just try and blend in.

Mat Ward sucks, GK are OP, Necrons are OP, my 9 Quad Mortars are totally fluffy.

 kronk wrote:
I sense much hostility in you, Kain.

Yesss... Embrace it!

Maybe I'm just upset about my favored army's atrocious internal balance.

I love Forgeworld arguments. They usually start something like "Played this TFG at my game store and he used something called a Sabre and Vulture and tabled me!" Then you get 14 posts from FW loyalists shouting him down saying 99% of FW is fine and you just need to L2P, FW is actually underpowered and better balanced than 40k etc...

And then someone actually rational begins pointing out specific units to people like the Mantis Warrior Libby, Thudd Guns, Vultures, Sabres, LR Achilles, Artillery, etc and you get a better picture of what FW is. A bunch of cool looking fluffy models, with fluffy rules and a few horrendously broken units which every TFG WAAC douche will relentlessly spam to win games.

Chumby hit it on the head. In tournaments FW will quickly dominate the landscape as competitive players rush to close the gap with the guy on the leading edge.

Codex armies are easy to collect and you know where to go get their rules. FW units are spread over 12 books and do not update well between editions.

There are so many reasons why FW is just not there yet, but all the fanboys do is ignore the actual facts and make broad generalizations.

Glocknall wrote:
There are so many reasons why FW is just not there yet, but all the fanboys do is ignore the actual facts and make broad generalizations.

The irony is, that's entirely what your post was. Broad generalizations.

Chumbalaya wrote:Not worth arguing, I'll just try and blend in.

Mat Ward sucks, GK are OP, Necrons are OP, my 9 Quad Mortars are totally fluffy.

Two completely different arguments there...

Glocknall wrote:
And then someone actually rational begins pointing out specific units to people like the Mantis Warrior Libby, Thudd Guns, Vultures, Sabres, LR Achilles, Artillery, etc and you get a better picture of what FW is. A bunch of cool looking fluffy models, with fluffy rules and a few horrendously broken units which every TFG WAAC douche will relentlessly spam to win games.

Which is different from Heldrakes, Vendettas, Riptides, Nightscythe spam, and everything you see with Codex units armies...how?

There are so many reasons why FW is just not there yet, but all the fanboys do is ignore the actual facts and make broad generalizations.

Speaking of this...

Chumby hit it on the head. In tournaments FW will quickly dominate the landscape as competitive players rush to close the gap with the guy on the leading edge.

I've played in such tournaments. There is no evidence that this has been the case. There have been multiple large scale 40k events since 6th began that have allowed FW, I think every major tournament on the west coast in almost the past year has allowed FW units. No such domination by FW has taken place.

Codex armies are easy to collect and you know where to go get their rules. FW units are spread over 12 books and do not update well between editions.

To an extent perhaps, but since when has having to buy books been a restriction for tournament events?

Usually they are collected in books specific to certain factions, it's primarily the Apocalypse units that are really spread out. But again, we have the same situation with codex units and armies with armies routinely stuck two editions behind, it's by no means unique to Forgeworld.

This also applies to say, Sisters of Battle, where on earth do you find their rules? Either through piracy or Ebay.




Honestly, with the inclusion of allies in the game, any attempt to keep FW out goes out the window on any reasonable balance grounds.

Glocknall wrote:


I love Forgeworld arguments. They usually start something like "Played this TFG at my game store and he used something called a Sabre and Vulture and tabled me!" Then you get 14 posts from FW loyalists shouting him down saying 99% of FW is fine and you just need to L2P, FW is actually underpowered and better balanced than 40k etc...

And then someone actually rational begins pointing out specific units to people like the Mantis Warrior Libby, Thudd Guns, Vultures, Sabres, LR Achilles, Artillery, etc and you get a better picture of what FW is. A bunch of cool looking fluffy models, with fluffy rules and a few horrendously broken units which every TFG WAAC douche will relentlessly spam to win games.

Chumby hit it on the head. In tournaments FW will quickly dominate the landscape as competitive players rush to close the gap with the guy on the leading edge.

Codex armies are easy to collect and you know where to go get their rules. FW units are spread over 12 books and do not update well between editions.

There are so many reasons why FW is just not there yet, but all the fanboys do is ignore the actual facts and make broad generalizations.

Really, how about some supporting evidence to your argument then? Until you have some actual evidence, all you've done is make broad generalizations, without any actual facts.

Forgeworld was allowed in the BAO, the largest tournament on the West Coast, and it did not dominate the landscape, not even close.


See? I've gone ahead and gotten you started with an actual fact, to support my position. I'll be waiting for yours.

But unless FW is played on a daily basis or at least also in the small local tournament , people won't have enough FW stuff to shift the local meta game. All the people I play against run IG as ally or necron as ally to get cheap flyers. If people suddenly started to bring the necron and IG weapon platforms , people would stop bringing ally just to get flyer superiority. .

Forgeworld differs from some of the power units in Codex units as they trump and replace Codex units, and usually at a points reduction.

Specific examples are the Sabre. More durable than a Hydra or HWT, cheaper, gets skyfire and interceptor, and can accept orders. Its just way better than a HWT and makes flyers completely irrelevant.

Thudd Gun getting 12 small blast barrage at str 5 is miles better than any similar Codex unit. Being artillery its even more durable as it can hide out of LOS. 150 points. Completely better than a T-Fire cannon or a Griffon or HWT mortar. Not even close.

Vulture. A vector dancing flyer with twinlinked punisher cannons and strafing run. Better than a Valkyrie or punisher tank.

NeilGilstrap wrote:

Check out the Mantis Warriors librarian! He was the libby we were using for our Guard BLOB.

I'll save you the time.


Order now and you'll get!!

- A level 2 Space Marine Librarian...
- Who automatically comes with a Psyker power which grants him and his squad Shrouding (+ win for Blobs)
- Who has a special rule that any unit charging him is disordered (did I mention BLOB win?)
- Force Axe
- Divination (oh yes, that's right, Div for Vanilla marines... ahh now add prescience to your BLOB or 4++ if you get lucky)

But wait! There's more!

- Re-roll seize the initiative (eat your heart out Coteaz)
- Swap Chapter Tactics for Infiltrate (you thought Korsarro Khan was cool? Say hello to my outflanking, shrouded, prescienced double BLOB, why double.... because my second HQ just outflanked too... and WTF am I saying.. my whole army just Infiltrated to deploy?? How's that grab ya? Infiltrating Thunderfire Cannons anyone? Yes please!)
- 3-4 attacks can't remember... because you know, the stock 2 for a libby isn't good enough

And if you order in the next 15 minutes I'll throw in...

- Re-roll failed psychic tests!


How much is this crazy character?

not 400 points!
not 300 points!
not even 200 points! eat your heart out Njal!

What would be willing to pay for the hands down best Librarian ever to walk the galaxy? For the guy that even Eldrad wishes he could be?

190? What, you think pricing him like Vulkan would even be remotely fair?

Are you nuts?!?! Well, you'll think I am because right now, we're giving this puppy away for just........


165 points! That's right! Just 165 points and this can all be yours!!!! Thought about putting level 2 psykers in your army for 150 points alone.... well, for just 15 more points... this guy can be YOURS!

Is that specific enough?

HelDrakes are a point taken. A huge unforced error by GW. Still hoping they will be FAQed back to normalcy.

Scythes and Dettas are not even in the same league as the units I posted above.

Scythe spam hasn't won a single GT to my knowledge while Alan Barajomialkdals (who was running sabres and artillery) nearly won BAO, and only lost in the finals to Flamer and Screamer demons with dice that were absolutely on fire. He also knocked out the third place player Doug Johnson who was running FW sabres and arty pieces.