Do we still need forge world in tournament play?

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**Phazael**

Daemons were ridiculous in the narrow time frame from their release until the new Dark Elf book came out (6 months or so), at which point they slowly got nudged down by each subsequent book, until the new edition pushed them into the mid tier and the new book cemented their place there. They get a lot of overt hate from the playerbase for a few reasons:

1) It was the first book of a new and briefly maintained power paradigm, written by Matt Ward no less. It was even more rushed than the current book (if you can believe that), but its errors were in the power army direction. What followed were even more undercosted power combo laden books, but this was the first in a long line of books that continue to plague the balance of the game. Dark Elves, Vampire Counts, Lizardmen, and Skaven all were far more abusive, but everyone remembers the first one and that was DoC.

2) Its release coincided with GW renewing interest in its own GT events, which were comp free exercises of cheesey list construction. As a result, a lot of people in remote areas got exposed to what a small number of unethical players could do with an unbalanced list, when no limits were placed upon them. I especially remember taking Daemons to the Baltimore and Vegas GW GTs that year and people saying "thank god its only a bloodthirster!" which were words I thought I would never hear in my life.

3) It was a cheap list to start up from scratch and easy to paint to a respectable standard. Thus, it was an easy army for bandwagon power gamers to get into, especially compared to a lot of other fantasy armies of the time. This combined with the second point meant that a lot of powergamer types jumped in and made armies that scarcely looked like armies on the table, but were rather just models of mathematical precision. This is generally acceptable in the Kobra Kai world of 40k, but in most regions it was a major offense in Fantasy to be that unsporting. And yet here was a low model count light detail army with lots of power combos to exploit that, until Dark Elves came out, had nothing with its level of power.

So, really, that small six month window stuck out in a lot of people's minds. Dark Elves took over as the most powerful army in Fantasy almost immediately upon release and Fantasy turned into a DE > DoC > VC > DE circle jerk that persisted for a couple of years until the introduction of 8th took DoC mostly out of the running.

**Blackmoor**

One of the interesting things that came out of the Chapterhouse lawsuit was the distance that GW has with its Forge World subsidiary.

**Enigwolf**

Blackmoor wrote:
One of the interesting things that came out of the Chapterhouse lawsuit was the distance that GW has with its Forge World subsidiary.

How so? Forge World's subsidiarization is a business decision.

**muwhe**

One of the interesting things that came out of the Chapterhouse lawsuit was the distance that GW has with its Forge World subsidiary.

Allan, which really means nothing as if it had been vital to the case to show the interconnectedness of Games Workshop and Forgeworld to prove the case that is what would have been presented and argued.

Who has final say in what models can be produced and marketed?
Who has final say in setting pricing?
What POS system do sales go through?
Where do the profits end up?

Answering those questions will tell you how much distance and control exists and when the rubber hits the road on the above 4 questions the answer is as expected Games Workshop.

Firms do this all the time and setup “independent” groups. So that when it is favorable to be able to show independence they can do so even though the “reality” is they are not independent at all but a wholly owned subsidiary with final authority coming from the parent company. The compliance and consulting industry has been doing this sort of thing for years.

**jamin484**

Do we still need forge world in tournament play?

Yes, more units is more fun.

**RiTides**

muwhe, I agree and I think how connected FW / GW are on the corporate level is rather irrelevant.

The bigger issue is the artificial separation they impose on the ground, which is the reality of what most gamers see. GW creates the division and it makes it harder to gain acceptance for FW for "normal" games.

But maybe the new Apoc expansion that's coming this summer will provide a good opportunity for full-FW-inclusion

(I was going to say full-FW-madness, but I'm trying to say this as a good thing / something I would personally be looking forward to!)

**whembly**

Well... I'm still ambivalent about Forge World in Tourny.

But... I just got back from a Tournament last weekend.

Guess what list won the tournament? Yup, a primary detachment filled will Thudd Guns and Saber LasCannon platforms (and I think he had Terminator Allies). He totally obliterated his opponents. I can see why folks want to disallow Forge World units because of this as no one had fun being shot to smithereens.

I'd submit to the TO's that if you're going to allow Forge World units in a 2000 pt list... then, at 2000 pts, allow double-force organization lists in standard codex only.

The only hard counter to that Thudd/Saber list the we can think of, is a pure Deathwing Terminator list. Belil can deepstricke w/o scatter really close (then can run up to 1" away)... that way, only the lasconnan shots would be done as he wouldn't want to shoot his thudd gun that close.

*shrugs*

That's my 2 cent.

**Vaktathi**

EDIT: Derp got Rapiers and Sabres confused.

Nobody seems to mind the idea of artillery spam from Ork and/or Eldar armies I've noticed

**Blackmoor**

The funny thing is that one of the most broken units in Forge World is the Heavy Artillery Platform and we have not really seen them yet.

Imagine a couple of Basilisks or Medusas.

Now imagine them:
#1. Being nearly unkillable.
#2. Re-rolling all misses.
#3. Ignoring cover.
#4. Being cheaper than the IG vehicles of Medusa and Basilisk.

Getting hammered by these is as rough as getting hit by the thudd guns, only they can kill vehicles.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:
Those weapons occupy the same FoC slot except in a DKoK assault brigade IIRC, so there wouldn't have been many of them, and the DKoKAB lacks access to stuff like sabres and vendettas and cheap chimeras and manticores and the like.

Nobody seems to mind the idea of artillery spam from Ork and/or Eldar armies I've noticed

Sabers are taken as Troops, Thudd Guns are Heavy Support.

**Vaktathi**

They're Ld7, the guardsmen crew still only get a 5+sv, they only ignore intervening cover (not cover that your unit is standing in), they're completely immobile, and where are they getting rerolls from?

Sabers are taken as Troops, Thudd Guns are Heavy Support.

Right, for some reason thinking Rapiers....silly sword names.

**Blackmoor**

Vaktathi wrote:
They're Ld7, the guardsmen crew still only get a 5+sv, they only ignore intervening cover (not cover that your unit is standing in), they're completely immobile, and where are they getting rerolls from?

This is the synergy of the IG artillery and why 6th edition broke them.

You have 2 rune priests that cast prescience on them. If they get Perfect Timing on the divination table (Ignore cover) they can then add themselves to the unit (unlike the vehicles) and have them ignore cover. Also, can't you use the order that makes your oppoenent re-roll cover saves?

Again as I have mentioned, you have a Lord Commisar giving them LD 10, and then they get a re-roll with the company standard/banner. They are behind a ADL being screened by guard blob so you are never getting close to them. Also you can use the gone-to-ground/get-back-in-the-fight for a 2+ cover save with toughness 7.

**Vaktathi**

Ok, but now we're talking about a significant investment, 400something points between just 2 of the cheaper guns and the runeprists and a single LC assuming no upgrades. That's 3 HQ's sitting around an artillery unit and hoping that you get the right psychic powers. Powerful? Yeah, but that's also not an insignificant investment. You can get a similar setup out of the Eldar with 6 S10 AP2 Blast D-cannons and a Farseer for fewer points.

**LValx**

I dont think that arguing about perceived "imbalanced" units is the best way to argue against those that want the inclusion of FW at events.

IMO, the best argument and one that I don't often hear folks make is that FW introduces a very uneven amount of new units to the various codices.

If you look at the newest codices, they all have similar numbers of unique units to use. FW completely does away with that by introducing many more new imperial units while doing next to nothing for certain armies (Nids).

That is my biggest issue with FW. If GW would go ahead and pump out a bunch of books that gave equal (or at least close to) units to each codex, i'd be happy with that.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:
Ok, but now we're talking about a significant investment, 400something points between just 2 of the cheaper guns and the runeprists and a single LC assuming no upgrades. That's 3 HQ's sitting around an artillery unit and hoping that you get the right psychic powers. Powerful? Yeah, but that's also not an insignificant investment. You can get a similar setup out of the Eldar with 6 S10 AP2 Blast D-cannons and a Farseer for fewer points.

well.. If someone is allying SW and IG they are likely to include Priests either way, at they are a basically an auto-include. They also do more than buff Thuddguns, so you can't just look at it that way.

The biggest issue with the artillery pieces, IMO, is not the damage they put out, but rather their absurd durability. T7 is not easy to destroy, especially with 4+ cover.

**Vaktathi**

LValx wrote:
well.. If someone is allying SW and IG they are likely to include Priests either way, at they are a basically an auto-include. They also do more than buff Thuddguns, so you can't just look at it that way.

If they're joining the arty units that's likely all they're doing

The biggest issue with the artillery pieces, IMO, is not the damage they put out, but rather their absurd durability. T7 is not easy to destroy, especially with 4+ cover.

They're tough when shooting at them for sure, but usually need an Ld babysitter, still have 5+svs typically for the crew, and are T3 once anything gets into combat.

Again though, I just find it odd nobody complains about artillery units from other armies, like T7 multi-wound artillery units tossing S6 large blasts or S10 blast weapons around with excellent psyker support is only a problem if it's Imperial guard, but for Eldar it's not even mentioned

**LValx**

Vaktathi wrote:
LValx wrote:
well.. If someone is allying SW and IG they are likely to include Priests either way, at they are a basically an auto-include. They also do more than buff Thuddguns, so you can't just look at it that way.
If they're joining the arty units that's likely all they're doing

The biggest issue with the artillery pieces, IMO, is not the damage they put out, but rather their absurd durability. T7 is not easy to destroy, especially with 4+ cover.
They're tough when shooting at them for sure, but usually need an Ld babysitter, still have 5+svs typically for the crew, and are T3 once anything gets into combat.

Again though, I just find it odd nobody complains about artillery units from other armies, like T7 multi-wound artillery units tossing S6 large blasts or S10 blast weapons around with excellent psyker support is only a problem if it's Imperial guard, but for Eldar it's not even mentioned

The eldar artillery isn't nearly as good as the FW IG artillery. You cant buy as many extra ablative wounds, which makes a decent size difference.

Also, an IC can detach at any point and contribute more to the fight. They can also buff other units as needed. Not to mention the inherent bonus of having the best psychic defense in the game. The only time the RP would realistically attach himself to Thuddguns would be in the case of receiving ignores cover. In most other cases I would bet that they'd be attached to a blob or something else, since you don't have to be attached to the squad you Prescience.

**Bobthehero**

I wonder if the Heavy Artillery Carriage crew for the Siege Regiment army will have that rule that makes them ignore ld test if they lose 25% of the squad.

Hilarity could very ensue, stack FNP from a quarter-master and let loose the troll faces.

**haroon**

whembly wrote:
Well... I'm still ambivalent about Forge World in Tourny.

But... I just got back from a Tournament last weekend.

Guess what list won the tournament? Yup, a primary detachment filled will Thudd Guns and Saber LasCannon platforms (and I think he had Terminator Allies). He totally obliterated his opponents. I can see why folks want to disallow Forge World units because of this as no one had fun being shot to smithereens.

I'd submit to the TO's that if you're going to allow Forge World units in a 2000 pt list... then, at 2000 pts, allow double-force organization lists in standard codex only.

The only hard counter to that Thudd/Saber list the we can think of, is a pure Deathwing Terminator list. Belil can deepstricke w/o scatter really close (then can run up to 1" away)... that way, only the lasconnan shots would be done as he wouldn't want to shoot his thudd gun that close.

*shrugs*

That's my 2 cent.

If FW wasn't allowed he would have showed up with 9 necron fliers or some other codex only BS. The point is this guy is going to do that no matter what the rules are. By not allowing forge world you just hurt the people who want to take cool fluffy units that aren't even very good in the game.

**whembly**

haroon wrote:

If FW wasn't allowed he would have showed up with 9 necron fliers or some other codex only BS. The point is this guy is going to do that no matter what the rules are. By not allowing forge world you just hurt the people who want to take cool fluffy units that aren't even very good in the game.

That's a very good point... hence, why I was ambivalent about the whole thing. Just wished I had my Deathwing army and get a go against that list.

**RiTides**

haroon wrote:
If FW wasn't allowed he would have showed up with 9 necron fliers or some other codex only BS. The point is this guy is going to do that no matter what the rules are. By not allowing forge world you just hurt the people who want to take cool fluffy units that aren't even very good in the game.

If that's your motivation, then FW-allowed with a ban list, or FW-allowed except artillery, should suit you just fine

**carlosthecraven**

Hi

(I thought this thread had finally died)

Vaktathi - the willful blindness continues.

The Eldar D-cannon weapon platform is quite good against vehicles, but lacks the ablative wounds that compound the durability to sustained fire power ratio that the FW IG has. This is a critical difference. At most, I have to successfully inflict 3 wounds to a full battery to get to something meaningful, unlike the 9 wounds I need to do to the fully manned IG FW thudd gun battery. Any experienced player (not running something like paladins or nob Bikers) is more concerned about 12 st5 ap5 blasts from the thudds to their infantry than 3 str 10 Ap2 blasts to the same unit.

As for the orks, you can crank up the durability to the same level, but the fire power is a fraction of what you have with IG FW. You can have two full ork batteries of lobbas for the exact same cost (with LD 5 as the slaver upgrade unbalances the points spend) as full thud battery (186 each). So for the same points cost, you have double the wounds, but 1/2 the firepower (and vastly reduced potential because of the placement rules for blasts when applying 12 at once is far more potent than 2 x 3 in a volley.) You can spend 10 more points per unit for a slaver with a hound for ld 7 and a re-roll, but that isn't as potent as a lord commissar leading a blob within 6" or a CCS issuing orders within 12" with a regimental standard. There is no divination option for orks.

Ork Lobbas and Eldar D-platforms are good, but no where near as good as the thuddgun for reasons that have been explained before - vastly improved durability leading to sustained high levels of firepower in a ruleset that strongly favours massed templates from a single source.

Cheers,
Nate

**MVBrandt**

haroon wrote:
whembly wrote:
Well... I'm still ambivalent about Forge World in Tourny.

But... I just got back from a Tournament last weekend.

Guess what list won the tournament? Yup, a primary detachment filled will Thudd Guns and Saber LasCannon platforms (and I think he had Terminator Allies). He totally obliterated his opponents. I can see why folks want to disallow Forge World units because of this as no one had fun being shot to smithereens.

I'd submit to the TO's that if you're going to allow Forge World units in a 2000 pt list... then, at 2000 pts, allow double-force organization lists in standard codex only.

The only hard counter to that Thudd/Saber list the we can think of, is a pure Deathwing Terminator list. Belil can deepstricke w/o scatter really close (then can run up to 1" away)... that way, only the lasconnan shots would be done as he wouldn't want to shoot his thudd gun that close.

*shrugs*

That's my 2 cent.

If FW wasn't allowed he would have showed up with 9 necron fliers or some other codex only BS. The point is this guy is going to do that no matter what the rules are. By not allowing forge world you just hurt the people who want to take cool fluffy units that aren't even very good in the game.

9 Necron flyer lists more or less do not win tournaments, and have only barely made top tables at the bigger ones. You're right "that guy" if you think he's a bad person (Which is silly if anyone does) is going to take a powerful list either way. When given access to FW IG arty units and a couple others, he will often lean toward that over anything else ... they really are that much better than the "OP" lists from existing codices, AND far less understood by average players. Most GT attendees know to expect Scythe spam and other things; they're often not FW savvy at all. Knowing what you're walking into when you invest thousands of bucks in army building and traveling is a MAJOR factor, hence - again back-ref'ing - all the "middle ground" players we heard anti-FW e-mails from (while quite few from hardcore competitors).

**whembly**

MVBrandt wrote:

9 Necron flyer lists more or less do not win tournaments, and have only barely made top tables at the bigger ones. You're right "that guy" if you think he's a bad person (Which is silly if anyone does) is going to take a powerful list either way. When given access to FW IG arty units and a couple others, he will often lean toward that over anything else ... they really are that much better than the "OP" lists from existing codices, AND far less understood by average players. Most GT attendees know to expect Scythe spam and other things; they're often not FW savvy at all. Knowing what you're walking into when you invest thousands of bucks in army building and traveling is a MAJOR factor, hence - again back-ref'ing - all the "middle ground" players we heard anti-FW e-mails from (while quite few from hardcore competitors).

Hey Mike... as a TO, what's your opinion on allowing double-force organization in a tournament? If nothing else, I think it'll move folks off of this eternal FW debate.

I'd rather see something like 4 DarkAngel HQs or 4 Dark Eldar HQs on the table than the rare FW units. *shrugs* But, like I said earlier... if there's a "tough" list out there, even if's it's FW, I'd thumb my nose and say "Bring it brah!".

**Vaktathi**

carlosthecraven wrote:
Hi

(I thought this thread had finally died)

Vaktathi - the willful blindness continues.

The Eldar D-cannon weapon platform is quite good against vehicles, but lacks the ablative wounds that compound the durability to sustained fire power ratio that the FW IG has. This is a critical difference. At most, I have to successfully inflict 3 wounds to a full battery to get to something meaningful, unlike the 9 wounds I need to do to the fully manned IG FW thudd gun battery.

Yeah, if you're shooting it from the front the Thudd Guns bought 2 extra crew each and lined them all up in front (and all you're caring about is casualties and not a break test), sure. I guess it's a good thing wound allocation is directional and things like maneuver, Deep Strike, and Outflanking exist.

Any experienced player (not running something like paladins or nob Bikers) is more concerned about 12 st5 ap5 blasts from the thudds to their infantry than 3 str 10 Ap2 blasts to the same unit.

(speaking of being willfully blind...) Sure if all we're looking at is light infantry and pretending MEQ's (it takes 4 S5 AP5 hits to roughly equal the killing power of S10 AP2), heavy infantry, MC's, tanks, and multi-wound models don't exist.

Or by the same token the Eldar can take 6 S6 (S7 if I3 or lower/vehicles) mini-Rending Large blast weapons for basically the same points, between the larger blast, higher strength (especially against vehicles/I3 units) and mini-rending, that's at least as much hitting power.

Not to mention they can attach a Warlock with Conceal to give them Shrouded and don't have to ally in a Divination psyker.

As for the orks, you can crank up the durability to the same level, but the fire power is a fraction of what you have with IG FW.

At a much lower cost as well.

You can have two full ork batteries of lobbas for the exact same cost (with LD 5 as the slaver upgrade unbalances the points spend) as full thud battery (186 each). So for the same points cost, you have double the wounds, but 1/2 the firepower (and vastly reduced potential because of the placement rules for blasts when applying 12 at once is far more potent than 2 x 3 in a volley.)

Wait, are we arguing about the firepower or the resiliency? Because you'd think if the issue is the resiliency, this would be more of an issue (or the Eldar units with access to Shrouding Warlocks). If it's the firepower, Eldar can put out similiar firepower for similar points (and inherent Divination/Concealment).

(and where was this concern over the the possibility of 12 S5 blasts in the preceding *two* editions?)

You can spend 10 more points per unit for a slaver with a hound for ld 7 and a re-roll, but that isn't as potent as a lord commissar leading a blob within 6" or a CCS issuing orders within 12" with a regimental standard.

And you're talking about ~150pts after kit at that point to babysit the artillery, 150pts of stuff that's not exactly impossible to remove.

There is no divination option for orks.

There isn't for IG either without allies either, but sure, yeah, Orks don't have a way to get Divination at all.

I'm not saying the Thudd Guns aren't good, but really, if we're concerned about firepower, the Eldar units can match them point for point. If we're concerned about resiliency, well, again, Eldar can match that with a Warlock sporting Conceal and Orks can make far more resilient artillery units.

**Enigwolf**

LValx wrote:
\
IMO, the best argument and one that I don't often hear folks make is that FW introduces a very uneven amount of new units to the various codices.

If you look at the newest codices, they all have similar numbers of unique units to use. FW completely does away with that by introducing many more new imperial units while doing next to nothing for certain armies (Nids).

That is my biggest issue with FW. If GW would go ahead and pump out a bunch of books that gave equal (or at least close to) units to each codex, i'd be happy with that.

We covered this issue about three or four times already in this thread. This is a mostly untrue argument to use given that half the IG units are Apocalypse Superheavies or are Leman Russ/Chimera variants already present in the Codex. If you are lumping ALL Imperials together, then that's a flawed argument to use given that you have like 5 SM Codices, SOB, IG, GK already lumped together compared to the next "racial group" of Chaos which is only 2, CSM and Daemons.

**Kain**

Spoiler:

Kain wrote:
Clauss wrote:
Troops are mandatory. Look at the FoC, as far as I can see you have to take at least 2. FW is essentially a new game completely, given how ridiculous thudd guns are along with other units.. Yes I am happy I dont have to face them, because they are too good for their points.

What things in 5th were so imbalanced, please tell me and we can show you tournament results that show you exact opposite over the past years.

So saying people on dakka crying about unit X being too good equates to OP? If you went to more tournaments you would experience this. The vast majority of big tournaments you will see good players make it to top tables, not OP units.

Competitive players are not afraid of the metagame changes, it changes with every codex. Why don't you go ask TOs who run tournaments why they don't allow IA and FW units, then we can get a 1st hand answer instead.

If it was so balanced and accepted, then the logical assumption would be TOs to allow FW to attract players who have FW units which would increase the attendees. So why do they not include FW?

Kain, no, this thread did not have a nice run, it was ridiculous from page one.

Allow me to go through a lot of the perceived imbalances with FW and enlighten you.

The main problem with the Thudd gun is that it takes forever to resolve but it's not really all that killy. Even against my Swarmnids list it isn't particularly killy. I have never lost any more than my Tervigons can replace with interest in one turn to them. Now if you want imbalanced, look at the Vendetta, the ability for the Tau to completely ignore large swathes of the rulebook like cover and assault and having to deal with a mediocre BS, the nigh invincible wave serpent, or the current cookie cutter cheese lists the Necrons have.

The Contemptor dread is pretty balanced and is probably one of the only forms of dreads that ever get used this edition as the rest are made of paper.

Lucius drop pod: 250 points for three power fist attacks at initiative out of a drop pod that has a chance of immobilizing your dread outright...whoop de fething doo.

Night shroud bomber: It's just a doomscythe with a different gun, yes S10 AP1 large blast is nasty, no it is not unhandleable. I mean, do Medusas dominate the meta despite firing out more S10 termi killing shots? No.

Tesseract ark: An annihiliation barge that gets an Executioner's gun, can kill much of your own army if it bites it, and can get AV14 from quantum shielding, is otherwise AV12 and costs nearly as much as a land raider.

Land Raider Achilles: With the advent of hull points, the Achilles is now paying for a -1 on the damage chart that's going to come up a lot less, and while ignoring lance and melta is nice, it can still simply be smashed open by the nearest monstrous creature or walker.

Vulture: Largely inferior to the Vendetta in most every way, only one build (double punisher cannons) is really all that viable and even then it won't kill as many infantry as you'd think (not enough shots to kill big 30 model bricks, or kill a good sized MEQ group), it is surprisingly good for hullpoint stripping on rear armor though.

Avenger: While it is very nice, it's quite reasonably priced and doesn't do anything too out of the ordinary, indeed a Heldrake is a better MEQ slayer than it is and is far more durable too.

Sabre gun platform: Undercosted? Yes. Game breaking? No. In the end, they're nothing more than tougher heavy weapons teams that can shoot at fliers without gimping themselves. Still nothing an Ion pieplate that ignores cover can't wipe off the map.

Stonecrusher Carnifex: Yes it has better regeneration, AP1, and a 2+, it is still just a four wound monstrous creature with no ranged options and it still dies just as easily to lascannons.

Nightwing: A very nice fighter, perhaps the best air superiority fighter in the game. It is however, made of paper and if it rolls a one on it's jink save that is probably the last one it'll ever roll, at which point you can kiss your points goodbye.

Hornet: Cheap, very snazzy, but not fliers, and you know what that means? Yes, autocannon time, and unlike the now ridiculously invincible wave serpent it doesn't have that snazzy shield of "feth your high strength."

Shadow spectres: Oh look overpriced MEQ killing Jump infantry in a codex full of MEQ slaying options, next.

Meiotic spores: Spore mines are bad and these are still glorified spore mines.

Malanthrope: Used to be awesome as hell, then nerfed into sucking.

Hades Breaching drill: was one legitimately overpowered, is now unreasonably terrible and will accomplish nothing other than mishapping itself and dying like a second rate mawloc.

DkoK: Are they a nice army in both flavors? Why yes. Are they inarguably superior to the guard? Well no. Peregrine can explain it better than I can.

Elysian Drop troopers: Yes they can spam fliers to an extent only Cron air can match, but most of those fliers are valkyries, whose best options are rocket pods that do little to MCs and vehicles unlike the Vendetta's heavy bolters and lascannons of kill everything.

Siege Assault Vanguard list: Yes they can spam huge numbers of tanks, yes they can reroll armor saves, guess what? If they don't get the objective they need to place in your side of the table, they can only ever tie. And rerollable armor saves means diddly to AP3 or better weapons.

Decimator daemon engine: Only truly good when run with Nurgle, and even then it costs nearly as much as a Land raider. Feth.

Mortis dreadnought: Delivers much needed skyfire to the Dark Angels, but it's still a dreadnought and is thus still AV12 with no options for added survivability.

Spartan Assault tank: While better than it's smaller land raider brother at everything for only fifty or so points more, you are now investing nearly three hundred points into a 5 HP AV14 all around unit. Which will make you a very sad man indeed when a cheap unit of Eldar drops in, haywires it into oblivion and drops out, or when JSJ fusion suits come in and fry it, or when you roll into rapid fire range of necron warriors and lose all your hull points in one go.

Legions list: Only meant for games in the 2k+ point range, any oddities for smaller games are there because you're trying to use an army that requires horde marines but doesn't make them any cheaper. And why would a primarch be assed to join a 500 pt battle?

Eldar Corsairs: Once better than Craftworld Eldar in every way, now drearily out of date.

Dreadmob list: Like the Armored Battle group, but Orky and with walkers instead of tanks. The only battle brothers you'll ever get for Orks, has all the issues with trying to spam a lot of an expensive unit with no points deduction for said units.

Armored battle group: Yet again, you are trying to spam a lot of tanks that aren't actually cheaper. This is a list that requires skill because even Draigowing lists can outnumber you modelwise.

Maynarch dynasty: The main change is a Necron specific warlord table, the exceedingly overcosted Acranthites, some special characters, flayed one troops with shred, a few special rules, lychguards attatched to HQs, and immortals can't be mandatory troops. Otherwise pretty much the same as Codex Necrons, also not battle brothers with Codex Necrons for some inexplicable reason. Maybe one of them spat in Szarekh's tea.

Lightning fighter: Made of paper with crappy weapons, garbage.

Hell blade: Made of paper with even *crappier* weapons, garbage.

Hell talon: Schizofrenic paper flier, also garbage.

Fighta: Inferior to a dakkajet.

Fighta-bomma: GROT BOMMS! But still has smaller shootas than a plane flown by grots. Huh?

That one ork kopter: An AV11 skimmer, because the Orks need land speeders too. Made of paper, but pretty fun.

Malcador: Probably the worst superheavy ever, actually inferior to it's cost in Leman Russes by a good margin and is overall a really bad tank, taking this in regular 40k is like taking Old One Eye, it eats up so many points for so little in return you're hurting your army.

Thunderbolt: Actually a worse air to air fighter than the Vendetta, which is an armed transport. Funny how things work huh?

I could keep on going but you probably get the point by now.

Tags added for brevity.
reds8n
Because it's worth repeating.

**RiTides**

Vaktathi- You do seem to be waving your hand a bit, as they say here, at the stats. Even when talking guardsmen, why are you harping on the 5+ save? They're likely behind an aegis, can go to ground for a 2++, and get the order to get back in the fight next turn.

You have some good points but I think you're understating the differences.

**Kain**

RiTides wrote:
Vaktathi- You do seem to be waving your hand a bit, as they say here, at the stats. Even when talking guardsmen, why are you harping on the 5+ save? They're likely behind an aegis, can go to ground for a 2++, and get the order to get back in the fight next turn.

You have some good points but I think you're understating the differences.

All of which can be eradicated by one trigger happy Iontide and some markerlights.

**LValx**

Enigwolf wrote:
LValx wrote:
\
IMO, the best argument and one that I don't often hear folks make is that FW introduces a very uneven amount of new units to the various codices.

If you look at the newest codices, they all have similar numbers of unique units to use. FW completely does away with that by introducing many more new imperial units while doing next to nothing for certain armies (Nids).

That is my biggest issue with FW. If GW would go ahead and pump out a bunch of books that gave equal (or at least close to) units to each codex, i'd be happy with that.

We covered this issue about three or four times already in this thread. This is a mostly untrue argument to use given that half the IG units are Apocalypse Superheavies or are Leman Russ/Chimera variants already present in the Codex. If you are lumping ALL Imperials together, then that's a flawed argument to use given that you have like 5 SM Codices, SOB, IG, GK already lumped together compared to the next "racial group" of Chaos which is only 2, CSM and Daemons.

Since I don't have all the FW books, just a few IA ones, could someone be bothered to break it down?

How many units are FW approved for each specific codex? I'd like to see the numbers on that

**muwhe**

This was a comprehensive list as of AdeptiCon 2013 and is now a bit dated.

http://www.adepticon.org/13rules/201340KIAApoc.pdf

This list also has units that are strictly Apocalypse only.

**LValx**

Still looks very, very uneven. Much more uneven than codices... Though I'm not sure exactly which ones are Apocalypse only.