gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:
Which war are you talking about?

The First War for Armageddon is perhaps the least known, and probably for good reason. In 444.M41[5] Cultists worshiping the Chaos god Khorne broke out in rebellion during a Warp storm. Soon, a great Space Hulk appeared over the planet, containing none other than Angron, the Daemon Primarch of the World Eaters.
The daemonic legions quickly pushed the defenders back in an orgy of bloodshed, until help arrived in the form of the Space Wolves and the Grey Knights.
With the Wolves bolstering the defences, the Grey Knights teleported to the centre of the Daemonic horde. The Grey Knights eventually banished Angron and his army from the material world, leaving the cultists to be crushed by the Imperial counterattack. Victory was imminent, but one final tragedy was to strike the planet.
In order to preserve the secret of the Daemon Primarch and the Grey Knights, the entire population of Armageddon, as well as all the surviving soldiers, were rounded up, sterilized, and sentenced to work camps for the rest of their lives while a new population was brought to re-settle the planet.[Needs Citation] Despite these cautions, several thousand Guardsmen managed to slip through the containment action, forcing the Inquisition to take more drastic measures in order to preserve the secrets of the daemons and the Grey Knights. Many Imperial Guard troopships were destroyed as they departed by Grey Knight Strike Cruisers, and in the Tremayne sector, three entire worlds were put to the sword to ensure the silence of a single company of Storm Troopers who had fought at Helsreach Hive alongside the Grey Knights.[4]
Logan Grimnar, the Great Wolf of the Space Wolves, has never forgiven the Inquisition for carrying out such a betrayal of the men and women who fought for their world.

Logan Grimnar battled long and hard to prevent this and even attempted to have his fleet escort ships of survivors away from the Inquisition, but after an attack by the Ordo Malleus and Grey Knights he failed

Though Angron's forces were vanquished, his monolith still stood, a beacon of inviolable evil in the heart of the equatorial jungle and its malign influence is as strong today as ever it was.

For their part the Space Wolves, following Grimnar's commands, were engaged in an increasingly successful cat-and-mouse game with the Inquisitorial containment forces. Notwithstanding their losses to the containment fleet, they managed to spirit away several Armageddon transports, safely dispersing their human cargoes in a variety of far-flung star systems.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:

Though Angron's forces were vanquished, his monolith still stood, a beacon of inviolable evil in the heart of the equatorial jungle and its malign influence is as strong today as ever it was.

For their part the Space Wolves, following Grimnar's commands, were engaged in an increasingly successful cat-and-mouse game with the Inquisitorial containment forces. Notwithstanding their losses to the containment fleet, they managed to spirit away several Armageddon transports, safely dispersing their human cargoes in a variety of far-flung star systems.

I think the most damaging impact is the rift between the Grey Knights and the Inquisition. This is the standard ending of every war the Imperium fights, they win taking huge losses with their empire progressively getting weaker and weaker.

Why would the inquisition not just send the IG on their
B way towards the IOT? Having them know that chaos exists isn't a big deal if they're are sent into a battle or scenario that they can't win. Give them a tour on Cadia or something.

It's better than just killing them. Isn't it? Or does that not make a good story?

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:

Why would the inquisition not just send the IG on their
B way towards the IOT? Having them know that chaos exists isn't a big deal if they're are sent into a battle or scenario that they can't win. Give them a tour on Cadia or something.

It's better than just killing them. Isn't it? Or does that not make a good story?

Because the Imperium of mans policies are self defeating in so many ways. Machiavelli stated that men should either be treated well or destroyed, the Imperium fails in doing either of that on most occasions. In the case of Armageddon they faced the Space Wolves, expected them to abandon their martial honor, possibly the worst way they could treat an Astarte's, and then let them get away and save the refugees, now they have a Legion sized chapter that hates them and refugees flooting around who not only have knowledge of Imperial secrets, military training, but every reasons to hate the Imperium. People ask why the Astarte's particularly the smurfs are considered more important than the Imperial Guard, well its because your average Guardsman doesn't want to die for a dying Emperor and the other chapters follow their own agendas. They could arm the average guardsmen with something better than a flashlight, but then he might think he could kill his Commissar.

 gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:

Logan Grimnar battled long and hard to prevent this and even attempted to have his fleet escort ships of survivors away from the Inquisition, but after an attack by the Ordo Malleus and Grey Knights he failed

This would suggest that the SW failed in escorting the Guard to safety. I would also assume that they would destroy the alters of chaos.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:

Though Angron's forces were vanquished, his monolith still stood, a beacon of inviolable evil in the heart of the equatorial jungle and its malign influence is as strong today as ever it was.

For their part the Space Wolves, following Grimnar's commands, were engaged in an increasingly successful cat-and-mouse game with the Inquisitorial containment forces. Notwithstanding their losses to the containment fleet, they managed to spirit away several Armageddon transports, safely dispersing their human cargoes in a variety of far-flung star systems.

I think the most damaging impact is the rift between the Grey Knights and the Inquisition. This is the standard ending of every war the Imperium fights, they win taking huge losses with their empire progressively getting weaker and weaker.

Can I ask your source for this please, as none has been provided. I did a quick google search and the first result was the 40k wiki, which is known for its inaccuracies and treating fan fiction like actual canon.

godking wrote:

 gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:

Logan Grimnar battled long and hard to prevent this and even attempted to have his fleet escort ships of survivors away from the Inquisition, but after an attack by the Ordo Malleus and Grey Knights he failed

This would suggest that the SW failed in escorting the Guard to safety. I would also assume that they would destroy the alters of chaos.

Read the emperors gift plenty of guardsmen escaped the inquisition.

 Harriticus wrote:
Anyway, the 2nd and 3rd wars were Eldar victories, as of the new fluff Ghazghkull's whole rise was orchestrated by them.

 rems01 wrote:
I think you're vastly over stating the political ramifications of the 1st Armageddon War. There is no great rift between the Inquisition and the Grey Knights. They Grey Knights have continued to follow orders and act in an end justifies the means fashion. They're not questioning their role.

Nor have the Space Wolves been alienated. In the 500 years since they've remained loyal to the Imperium and fought along side its institutions. They may have a beef with certain elements of the Inquisition but when push comes to shove they knuckle down and defend the Imeprium like in the 13th Black Crusade.

You have to keep in mind that the First War was 500 years ago. Any ramifications or consequences would have occurred by now. As it is it's a near forgotten war remembered only by the Space Wolves, Grey Knights and Inquisitorial archives.

Any guardsmen who did escape are long dead.

@Danp164

What about all the thousands of World Eaters who died? They're near irreplaceable. It's a significant loss in manpower for them.

danp164 wrote:


Your missing the point of contention, there's no question that the disillusioned elements that were involved in the first Armageddon war are still loyal defenders of humanity. They would have fought at Cadia regardless. The guardsmen who fought would have indeed died but its the kinda story you pass on down the generations. Also your only thinking of what these groups feel regarding the imperium, what about how the Imperium feels about them? look at it from the High Lords perspective, purely regarding the space wolves

They have a very unstable geneseed and it is well known
They have on one occasion fired on and destroyed 3 ships containing missionaries of the imperial faith
Logan Grimnar himself has vocally opposed their policies and decisions
They are an enormous military force with far more logistical assets that the Codex Astartes allows

As for the World Eaters losses this is VERY unclear, we know there were thousand of beserkers, cultists and mutants but its likely Angron only took a core of those as world eaters, even if that were 500 out of a few thousand that were actually his legion and let be honest even if he took a full 5 thousand of his Legion, that's barely half their strength with 500 years worth of time of cloning and replenishing I don't think the losses on Armageddon would have been that considerable in either number or long term affect.

 rems01 wrote:

danp164 wrote:


Your missing the point of contention, there's no question that the disillusioned elements that were involved in the first Armageddon war are still loyal defenders of humanity. They would have fought at Cadia regardless. The guardsmen who fought would have indeed died but its the kinda story you pass on down the generations. Also your only thinking of what these groups feel regarding the imperium, what about how the Imperium feels about them? look at it from the High Lords perspective, purely regarding the space wolves

They have a very unstable geneseed and it is well known
They have on one occasion fired on and destroyed 3 ships containing missionaries of the imperial faith
Logan Grimnar himself has vocally opposed their policies and decisions
They are an enormous military force with far more logistical assets that the Codex Astartes allows

As for the World Eaters losses this is VERY unclear, we know there were thousand of beserkers, cultists and mutants but its likely Angron only took a core of those as world eaters, even if that were 500 out of a few thousand that were actually his legion and let be honest even if he took a full 5 thousand of his Legion, that's barely half their strength with 500 years worth of time of cloning and replenishing I don't think the losses on Armageddon would have been that considerable in either number or long term affect.

@DBarring the part specifically addressed to you i was actually talking to Zso Sahaal. But anyway.

First off on the World Eaters number's as i recall there were indeed thousands of bezerkers, specifically world eaters. I have a figure of 50,000 in my mind but can't remember where it comes from. That seems very high though.

What story is getting passed on down the generations? The civillian population was placed into camps and worked to death. The Guard were purged, fled far from Imperial space or died in combat further down the line. There's no retirement from the Guard, they're not passing their tale on to the next generation.

The Space Wolves also happen to be a first founding chapter. They have an untouchable status, like all the other first founders. Elements of the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy may not like them but other High Lords no doubt enjoy seeing those organisations humbled. Despite these hiccups in relations (which many chapters have had, owing to their autonomy and privileges) the Space Wolves have remained loyal and are on balance a positive force in the Imperium. No one but the most fanatical, zealous, misguided inquisitors are calling for their blood. They're also not that large. Bigger than the average chapter yes but no more than a couple thousand (at most). They're no where near Legion size.

Cloning and replenishing? There's going to be very little of that going amongst the World Eaters. They're scatted warbands comprised of blood maddened killers for the most part. They're in no position and lack the capabilities and resources to undergo concentrated replenishment. Cloning is a little understood science in the Imperium. The best of the Mechanicus can barely do it, the World Eaters certainly can't.

wilsjur wrote:
It was like WWI... No one won

 rems01 wrote:

First off on the World Eaters number's as i recall there were indeed thousands of bezerkers, specifically world eaters. I have a figure of 50,000 in my mind but can't remember where it comes from. That seems very high though.

danp164 wrote:


50,000 seems ridiculously high, I'm mot even sure the world eaters HAD 50,000 marines.

At their height, gearing up for the Heresy the World Eaters numbered 150,000 or so. Of course they no doubt suffered horrendous losses during the heresy and in the years after. So 50,000 at Armageddon is indeed likely too high though 5 to 10,000 seems plausible.

We know for a fact that although it wasn;t many, some imperial guard were securely evacuated by Space Wolf ships and hidden, I'm fairly certain fighting in the Armageddon war is something you;d tell the kids about.

Didn't the Inquisition then track those down who had fled, committing exterminatus on the planets where they sheltered? If any did truly esapce then i don't think they would talk about Armageddon, given that they've seen what happens to those that do. If you're a sole survivor of a cover up operation you don't blab about it, you shut up and hope to pass under the radar. Knowledge of Chaos is some of the most tightly guarded information in the Imperium. The average citizen and guardsman doesn't even know the true nature of the warp. This is all proscribed information, carrying a death sentence.

I'm also fairly sure the High Lords WOULDN'T be too impressed with some of the Wolves shenanigans, lets not forget the High Lords of Terra have two of there members FROM the organisations that the space wolves took the mick out of.

Yes and there are another 10 High Lords to countermand any actions those 2 take. Imperial bureaucracy and it's institutions are not monolithic organizations united in purpose, they often work at cross purposes and there's huge amounts of infighting, politicking and backstabbing.

Having a few more THOUSAND space marines is quite a big deal maybe their not legion sized but both the Wolves and even the Ultramarine's have access to things they just should not have, the idea of splitting the imperial army up after the heresy was to limit the ability of single forces to deploy effectively this included space marines, as it stand both the Wolves and the Ultramarines are capable of acting entirely autonomously and self sufficiently with little to no problem. Were talking fleet assets aside from the ships an astartes chapter normally maintains, logistical assets their own mini equivalent of the imperial navy and guard. Ultramar PDF regiments are FAR better equipped and trained than the average fully fledged regiment of imperial guard, The High Lords couldn't sanction a first founding chapter even if it wanted to it would be like punching a lion in the face.

Exactly what i said, the first founding chapters are untouchable. They have a special status and the influence and resources beyond other chapters.


On the subject of replenishment, we know for a fact that even leaders of small warband's have found ways to increase their size, Fabius Bile is only alive in the Eye because he offers his services to everyone equally and lets not forget Angron was only banished for a set time, at the word of their gene father it wouldn't take much to put humpty back together again. As for cloning being barely understood, we also know for a fact that bile can crank out entire companies of altered traitor guard in a few weeks, Honsou used daemonic alchemy but was still able to replenish the ranks with cloned space marine equivalents, lets not forget also the Iron warriors claimed thousands of geneseeds in his first campaign, I dont think chaos has much problem replenihing especially without those pesky moral/ethical/religious stupidity that plagues Ad Mech.

Fabius Bile is one man. He can't be everywhere or doing everything at once. The creation of Space Marines is still a long, slow process requiring not just the gene-seed implantation but all the other organs and not to mention suitable recruits. It has to be done in specific stages and timeframes. Do we know for a fact that Bile can pump out clones in a week? Source please.

The World Eaters have been divided since Skalathrax, thousands of years ago. Not even Angron has been able to unite the legion.

Yes, the Iron Warriors, claimed that gene-seed. They didn't share it around with all the other legions. Only Abaddon got a cut.

If anything the Traitor legions and chapters should have greater, not lesser problems replenishing. They lack pure supplies of gene-seed, their own being heavily corrupted. This makes them reliant on fresh traitors and capturing gene-seed, not exactly a common occurrence. Furthermore they only have limited infrastructure for implantation, lacking the resources and material their loyalist kin have. They also lack a population to implant. The Eye of Terror is not conducive for healthy populations. Chaos space marine are by and large scavangers and raiders, they just don't have the capabilities for mass replenishment of their ranks.