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What about going "all in" spamming wave serpents?

I think you could fit 9 or 10 serpents in a 2000p list (single FOC). Those would put out ridiculous amount of mid-strenght fire, more than anything could stand.

Is that the future of competitive Eldar armylists?

In 5th edition you could put 3 Wave Serpents with 5 FD each, 3 Wave Serpents with 5 DA each and 3 Fire Prisms in a 1500 points game.

Boring as hell to play or play against. And no, I doubt it's the future, if for nothing else than for the inability to score while inside transports.

And shame about no 2+ cover WS.

If running WS with 5 DA, why not grab 6 3 man jetbike squads w cannons for much less. Between keeping them hidden, great harassment, and the points saved, you would probably do better. Also the points saved could go into other things to bring comparable firepower. Then you would have the ability to control more than 3 objectives, which is often what you need in tourneys.

3x Heldrake lists would eat those jetbikes for breakfast.

Because Heldrakes exist, I think you either need 2+ armour save, units in transports or large blobs.

Eldar can only do units in transports well.

Polecat wrote:
3x Heldrake lists would eat those jetbikes for breakfast.

Because Heldrakes exist, I think you either need 2+ armour save, units in transports or large blobs.

Eldar can only do units in transports well.

They can't do 2+ armour at all with the exception of Phoenix Lords. Everyone rabbits on about how units are bad because they loose to the hell turkey. Lets face it. nearly everything shy of a daemon or a TEQ looses to turkeys. Does that mean any unit without an invunerable or 2+ save is redundant and bad because of hell turkeys. No but the way a lot of people go on they seem to think this is the case.

Peoples counter arguments are no you stick them in vehicles. But if they are sat in vehicles they are wating their points until they get out and we loop back to hell turkeys. Not everyone you face will be a CSM player though.

/rant

And then you reserve all 6 squads of jetbikes. If he went first, 2 of the 3 will come on with no jetbikes to hit. If he went 2nd, you still have 2-3 (depending on autarch or not) in reserve and can kill the helldrakes before they can do much more. You can also avoid the helldrakes after the first flame, since they arent exactly maneuverable.

And its not like your 5 man DA squads are going to fare any better vs 3 helldrakes. You have 3 ~260 point troop choices. Its not hard for the enemy to realize to kill the troops in a objective game.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Well the guys that usually win tournaments (or do really well consistently) were saying that the 4+ cover save on their tau vehicles left them pretty much untouched for a majority of the games. Seeing as Eldar also get the same treatment with the addition of moving faster and having better armoured transports I think its safe to say that they are totally fine.

Just remember to point out to your opponent that "Ignores cover" only applies to wounds not armour pen.

Actually, that's wrong. Vehicles take cover saves "exactly like a non-vehicle model would do against a Wound" (p. 75), so things that ignore cover for Wounds only still ignore vehicle cover.

Still doesn't make it a wound. You're arguing that the comparison to it getting a wound like non vehicle models excuses 'ignore cover'. That point is used as an example of how it would work, it never counts as a wound.

Its the same reason why they fixed invulnerable saves


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Araenion wrote:
Wait, what? Since when? Khm, khm. Let me get this straight. Vehicles can't have their cover ignored by weapons that ignore cover? Tau markerlights still work, though, right?

And does this mean I can cast conceal on a WS with a Spiritseer inside attached to a unit of WG and get a 2+ cover save on a Serpent? If so...shenanigans!

and not quite, conceal effects only the psyker (and his unit) it wouldn't work on the wave serpent

 Ravenous D wrote:
Still doesn't make it a wound. You're arguing that the comparison to it getting a wound like non vehicle models excuses 'ignore cover'. That point is used as an example of how it would work, it never counts as a wound.

Its the same reason why they fixed invulnerable saves

I disagree-- "exactly" means "exactly--" but am not willing to continue this discussion here. Take it to YMDC if you think you have a case.

 zephoid wrote:
And then you reserve all 6 squads of jetbikes. If he went first, 2 of the 3 will come on with no jetbikes to hit. If he went 2nd, you still have 2-3 (depending on autarch or not) in reserve and can kill the helldrakes before they can do much more.

You can also reserve the six 5-man DA units and just deploy the serpents. Then when the DA units come from reserve, you just march them straight into the serpents that are hanging around in your deployment zone.

Really, the fire power those serpents have is really good. Compare them to marine rifleman dreadnoughts, a popular fire support choice for shooty marine lists.

For about same points cost you get almost twice the fire power AND a fast skimmer AND a transport. And because its a dedicated transport, you can spam them more than you can dreadnoughts. There is nothing not to like about serpents. IMO the best unit in the codex by far.

I find it interesting how everyone is so worried about the hell turkeys and want to build their lists around them. Yes there are a few Chaos Space Marine players at the store and they all have helldrakes, but that is why I am thinking of taking a few crimson hunters to deal with them.

 gmaleron wrote:
I find it interesting how everyone is so worried about the hell turkeys and want to build their lists around them. Yes there are a few Chaos Space Marine players at the store and they all have helldrakes, but that is why I am thinking of taking a few crimson hunters to deal with them.

It's just internet listing. I haven't actually seen a list with Helldrakes win a GT this year.

Exactly, everyone on the internet makes those lists sound unbeatable and that they are everywhere. When Nidzilla was the big thing I did the North American circuit and didn't see a single one other then my own.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
I find it interesting how everyone is so worried about the hell turkeys and want to build their lists around them. Yes there are a few Chaos Space Marine players at the store and they all have helldrakes, but that is why I am thinking of taking a few crimson hunters to deal with them.

It's just internet listing. I haven't actually seen a list with Helldrakes win a GT this year.

There were several Cron/CSM Heldrake lists in the top 16 at Adepticon (they didn't win, but to 16 is pretty relevant). Its also one of the most prominently taken lists in ETC right now.

But I agree with what you are saying. There is an irrational fear of Helldrakes that doesn't fit their real impact on the game.

 DeffDred wrote:

Eldar have very few worth while scoring units. Dire Avengers may be the best choice for running up to objectives.

Guardians are better for mass bodies and hoping they survive till the end while on an objective.

Wraithguard are great for objectives... if you want to spend the points on them and the 70 point tax to make them troops.

Rangers/Pathfinders never struck me as something you want to take objectives with. They may be useful for firstblood/kill the warlord though.

Just some thoughts.

Edit: Forgot about jetbikes... They may or maynot be any good. I don't use them and refuse to spend that much on such outdated models.

I've played a few games with the new eldar as well. I think that Eldar scoring units are pretty good.

Gaurdian defenders- With bs4, battle focus and being able to take 2 platforms per 10 gaurdians I have found that they make fairly decent backfield objective holders. No matter which method of terrain placement you use it is usually pretty easy to contrive a scenario where 20 can deploy on an objective behind line of sight blocking terrain. From there they can move out to see opponents, use their heavy weapons, and then move back. This makes them untouchable from any shooting but indirect fire. If something comes for them then there is a good chance that, with battle focus, the gaurdians will either get off first anyways, being able to hurt anything in the game from monstrous creatures to terminators with their basic weapons, or they survive one round of fire from deepstrikers and then make a nice fire arc around them and light them up. Guardians are versatile and hard hitting troops now.

Gaurdian Jetbikes- for two more points per model then a tac marine you get something with the stats of a tac marine (other then str 3 but who cares. if they are in close combat you have failed anyways), auto wound/ap2 on 6s to wound, incredible mobility and a jink save. Good value. Even better with a warlock to give them that 3+ cover save, but they don't need that to be effective.

Wraith units- expensive, but, especially with their new options, can kill nearly anything in the game in any phase of the game and are of course tough as nails.

Rangers are probably the weakest choice but they are much cheaper now.

Avengers are pretty versatile and have their place but I like gaurdians more in this edition.

Which codexes scoring units are you comparing them to? Someone can (and usually does) always say in these discussions "well, if I fielded this unit they'd be screwed", implying that they are a useless unit/configuration because the critiquing player can imagine a scenario that exploits the weakness inherent in damn near every unit in the game. It get's tiresome. Thats why you build a list thinking "knowing my unit choices and loadouts and how I plan to use them, what are the best ways for my opponent to attack them?" and then build the rest of your army around neutralizing those threats.

Seriously, you can pick apart ANY unit in the game and find the rock-paper-scissors answer for it. Making it happen on the table top is something else entirely. Eldar troops are slippery and possess things that can do serious damage. I had a unit of 20 gaurdians on an objective hiding behind terrain as mentioned above and over the course of a 6 turn game they moved-shot-moved with their star cannon and bright lance over and over, and killed/neutralized far more then their points value. Immobilized a land raider, popped a rhino, killed 6 death company, and stripped two wounds off memphiston. A unit deepstriked near them to try and deal with them and killed 3 gaurdians. The gaurdians all but wiped them out in their next turn with 30 shuriken catapult shots (4 rends) and their heavy weapons.

Not perfect but nothing is and they were able to hit above their weight class all game with battle focus and their relentless heavy weapons.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Exactly, everyone on the internet makes those lists sound unbeatable and that they are everywhere. When Nidzilla was the big thing I did the North American circuit and didn't see a single one other then my own.

Obviously not everyone are bringing 3x heldrakes every time. But thats not the point. The point is, that there is a good possibility that you are going to run into a match against 3x Heldrakes sometimes.

When I build a list, I try to make it so that it has a good chance beating every list it faces, you know, a TAC list.

That is why I take what I feel is the most TAC choice for troop slot, and jetbikes just dont cut it. It is not difficult to kill T4 3+ save troops, just ask any marine player. The fact that jetbikes are more expensive than marines does not help their case.

I think that a Serpent is the best thing that can come out of a troop slot in the codex. Whether it should be loaded with DA or Guardians or even Wraiths is a matter of discussion.

I think that a Serpent is the best thing that can come out of a troop slot in the codex. Whether it should be loaded with DA or Guardians or even Wraiths is a matter of discussion.

You forgot Fire Dragons here since they usually can get their job done, are durable in this edition and cheaper than Wraithguard.

 wuestenfux wrote:

I think that a Serpent is the best thing that can come out of a troop slot in the codex. Whether it should be loaded with DA or Guardians or even Wraiths is a matter of discussion.

You forgot Fire Dragons here since they usually can get their job done, are durable in this edition and cheaper than Wraithguard.

Well, you can take Storm Guardians with 2x Fusion guns for same points than Fire Dragons, and they are scoring and have more bodies and also get the job done.

 Gangrel767 wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Just remember to point out to your opponent that "Ignores cover" only applies to wounds not armour pen.

QFT - This is an often missed or misread rule.

Try again
Page - 75 Main Rules

If the target is obscured and suffers a glancing or penetrating hit , it must take a cover save exactly like a non-vehicle model would do against a Wound

Took a little digging to find it, but wasn't out of the way or anything.

So it's been established that Wave Serpents are awesome for the theoretical "Competitive Mechdar".

So without posting points, what are the best combinations of upgrades for them?

Should things like the Falcon, Fireprism, ect. even be considered?

Would we count the Wraithknight as a "Mechdar" unit? It is a "Mech" in a sense.

Polecat wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

I think that a Serpent is the best thing that can come out of a troop slot in the codex. Whether it should be loaded with DA or Guardians or even Wraiths is a matter of discussion.

You forgot Fire Dragons here since they usually can get their job done, are durable in this edition and cheaper than Wraithguard.

Well, you can take Storm Guardians with 2x Fusion guns for same points than Fire Dragons, and they are scoring and have more bodies and also get the job done.

With just two fusion guns?

 DeffDred wrote:
So it's been established that Wave Serpents are awesome for the theoretical "Competitive Mechdar".

So without posting points, what are the best combinations of upgrades for them?

Should things like the Falcon, Fireprism, ect. even be considered?

Would we count the Wraithknight as a "Mechdar" unit? It is a "Mech" in a sense.

Upgrades: scatter laser, underslung shuricannon, holofield.

Falcons are not must-have tanks, Serpents have superior fire power (if you don't count too much on the pulse laser) and they don't occupy a slot.

Jump infantry can keep up with the speed of skimmers and so can be considered in mech lists.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Polecat wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

I think that a Serpent is the best thing that can come out of a troop slot in the codex. Whether it should be loaded with DA or Guardians or even Wraiths is a matter of discussion.

You forgot Fire Dragons here since they usually can get their job done, are durable in this edition and cheaper than Wraithguard.

Well, you can take Storm Guardians with 2x Fusion guns for same points than Fire Dragons, and they are scoring and have more bodies and also get the job done.

With just two fusion guns?

Sure, when you take up to six of those Storm guardian units thats 12 fusion guns.

I guess other option would be to take Guardian Defenders with a heavy weapon platform.

Cheapest option would be 5-man DA.

After troop slots are full, the next cheapest option to spam Serpents are Howling Banshees, and then Striking scorpions.

Then there are Fire Dragons, Dark Reapers and wraiths.

I don't find the underslung Cannon worth the 10 points. I've got only 5 games with them, but the common trend I've found in each game.

If going second: the Serpent Shield works well knocking penetrating hits down. I've used Eldrad to give Stealth on turn one, typicaly giving them a 3+ or 4+ save on turn 1. Afterwards, the Scatterlaser/Shield gets fired every turn and I found I needed to move more than 6 inches, thus negating the ability to fire the Cannon. Then, they get a 4+ save from movement/holofield.

If going first, I don't move much, just enough to get me my save and line up shots. However, I'm generally outside of 24", so the Cannon isn't useful. But, I still get the 4+ save from movement/holofield.

Out of 5 games, I think I've fired a Cannon 2 or 3 times. This is running 4 Wave Serpents at 2000 points.

YMMV.

That sounds interesting Sarigar -- I guess it depends on how often you fire the serpent shield. I really like the anti-pen power of it, but if you're finding that the attack is worth more, then yeah, the Cannon is 10 points you can put elsewhere.

I don't want to highjack the thread but I think my list is pretty "Mechdar" and could use some feed back.

Farseer
Runes of Warding

Spiritseer

Wraithguard
D-Scythes
Wave Serpent
Holofield
Shuriken Cannon
Scatter Laser

6 Wraithblades
Axes
Wave Serpent
Holofield
Shuriken Cannon
Scatter Laser

8 DA
Exarch
PW/SS

6 DA
Exarch
PW/SS


6 DA
Exarch
PW/SS

6 Darkreapers
Exarch
EML
Flakk
Fast Shot

Falcon
Scatter Laser
Shuriken Cannon

Falcon
Scatter Laser
Shuriken Cannon

Aegis Defence Line
Quad-Cannon

I think that's about 1850. My local environment isn't super competitive we usually play for fun.

I just wanted to see if Dakka thought this would be usable at a tournement or something should I deside to bring the pointy ears.

I'd say that your 2 Falcons and 2 Serpents is a good start, but I've seen some builds utilizing 6-7 AV12 Fast Skimmers at 1850.

Mostly with 4-5 Serpents and 2 Prisms with a Hunter and various builds inside the Serpents.

 Krellnus wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Just remember to point out to your opponent that "Ignores cover" only applies to wounds not armour pen.

QFT - This is an often missed or misread rule.

Try again
Page - 75 Main Rules

If the target is obscured and suffers a glancing or penetrating hit , it must take a cover save exactly like a non-vehicle model would do against a Wound

Took a little digging to find it, but wasn't out of the way or anything.

Yea, this has been pointed out already. Thank you though.

Polecat wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

Polecat wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

I think that a Serpent is the best thing that can come out of a troop slot in the codex. Whether it should be loaded with DA or Guardians or even Wraiths is a matter of discussion.

You forgot Fire Dragons here since they usually can get their job done, are durable in this edition and cheaper than Wraithguard.

Well, you can take Storm Guardians with 2x Fusion guns for same points than Fire Dragons, and they are scoring and have more bodies and also get the job done.

With just two fusion guns?

Sure, when you take up to six of those Storm guardian units thats 12 fusion guns.

I guess other option would be to take Guardian Defenders with a heavy weapon platform.

Cheapest option would be 5-man DA.

After troop slots are full, the next cheapest option to spam Serpents are Howling Banshees, and then Striking scorpions.

Then there are Fire Dragons, Dark Reapers and wraiths.

Well, I'm not a fan of min-sized squads, not even with my Necrons.
Guardians are useful in a list with an Avatar where they could run in his fearlessness bubble. Otherwise, I'd count on Dire Avengers and Fire Dragons.

 Sarigar wrote:
I don't find the underslung Cannon worth the 10 points. I've got only 5 games with them, but the common trend I've found in each game.

If going second: the Serpent Shield works well knocking penetrating hits down. I've used Eldrad to give Stealth on turn one, typicaly giving them a 3+ or 4+ save on turn 1. Afterwards, the Scatterlaser/Shield gets fired every turn and I found I needed to move more than 6 inches, thus negating the ability to fire the Cannon. Then, they get a 4+ save from movement/holofield.

If going first, I don't move much, just enough to get me my save and line up shots. However, I'm generally outside of 24", so the Cannon isn't useful. But, I still get the 4+ save from movement/holofield.

Out of 5 games, I think I've fired a Cannon 2 or 3 times. This is running 4 Wave Serpents at 2000 points.

YMMV.

Good argument in regards to taking the shuriken cannon or not but would it not be worth it since if you hit with the scatter laser it makes the shuriken cannon twin linked? However I would only take it if I had extra points available, as an afterthought.