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AWesker1976 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

AWesker1976 wrote:
Necrons would be better suited for NPCs in my opinion. and let's be honest with each other, Necrons are popular now because the new Codex was written by Mat "overpowered and broken" Ward and can only be beaten if the Necron player is mentally ill.

<--- Been playing Necrons since 2004.

Your butt hurt sustains me.

Isn't that around the time when rank and file Warriors could destroy even the most powerful armor with their basic kit? How many IG lasgun blasts does it take to wreck a Land Raider?

Nope, that was around the time necrons were slowly becoming out of date, could be swept easily in combat, had no options to speak of, and relied on one gimmick to kill vehicles which frankly wasn't that reliable.
Oh, they also had the oh so brilliant phase out rule.

 Lynata wrote:

Sigvatr wrote:The only biased part is their looks

And their supposedly "terrible" fluff or the frequency of these "massacres". Though I suppose this may be explained by you just not being as familiar with their background.

Necron codex, GK codex. SoB getting slaughtered. Apologies if you're new to 40k, those codices have been around for a while.

Perhaps then you should have said so instead of making your arguments so easy to discard. Also, what is "vastly" for you? Do you actually have any reliable numbers, or are you just making stuff up?

Check previous post how I refered to them. Data? The most reliable thing we got is tournament data which isn't a viable representation because of their underpoweredness. The next thing are logical assumptions (here: only metal, no codex) and anecdotal experience aka local meta. I can provide data from 4 gaming clubs. 1 SoB player.

Also, I don't see how the unavailability of their current Codex and the high price of their metal miniatures should affect how many people play them in a videogame where these factors do not apply.

Indirectly. No popularity, vastly underplayed, less people are familiar with them, less might play them. And just having them because they are female? Don't get sexist, brah!

I quite honestly think that Necrons work as an NPC faction better than 'nids do, for simple mechanics and fluff reasons. If there's enough 'nids to be running around "balancing" all the factions out... Well... Sheesh, you guys should be fleeing off the planet in the face of the Hive Fleet. Furthermore, Shadow of the Warp is going to need to be explained. It also makes more sense for Necrons to appear out of nowhere to harass the back of a faction's territory, since they can fluffily rise out of previously-Necron-free areas, while 'nids... 'nids still need Mycetic Spores to get anywhere since I'm pretty sure that if the extent of the 'nid infestation is that the whole planet were riddled with tunnels, you'd also be wanting to flee, not fight.

 Enigwolf wrote:
I quite honestly think that Necrons work as an NPC faction better than 'nids do, for simple mechanics and fluff reasons. If there's enough 'nids to be running around "balancing" all the factions out... Well... Sheesh, you guys should be fleeing off the planet in the face of the Hive Fleet. Furthermore, Shadow of the Warp is going to need to be explained.

Yeah, it's going to be hard playing as a killer robot or a lizard bug in a MMO. They would be better as NPC antogonists.

Speaking of the "looks" of the Sisters, when compared to the model of Eldar Phoenix Lord Jain Zar, the sisters look a lot better.

AWesker1976 wrote:
Speaking of the "looks" of the Sisters, when compared to the model of Eldar Phoenix Lord Jain Zar, the sisters look a lot better.

Looks are entirely subjective though. I like their angel-thingies but their regular troopers with the weird bobcut look terribly trashy.

 Sigvatr wrote:

AWesker1976 wrote:
Speaking of the "looks" of the Sisters, when compared to the model of Eldar Phoenix Lord Jain Zar, the sisters look a lot better.

Looks are entirely subjective though. I like their angel-thingies but their regular troopers with the weird bobcut look terribly trashy.

I kind of like the corset look it's pure John Blanche imo.

 Cheesecat wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

AWesker1976 wrote:
Speaking of the "looks" of the Sisters, when compared to the model of Eldar Phoenix Lord Jain Zar, the sisters look a lot better.

Looks are entirely subjective though. I like their angel-thingies but their regular troopers with the weird bobcut look terribly trashy.

I kind of like the corset look it's pure John Blanche imo.

Ditto. The hair is fine imo. It just looks like a terrible helmet on the model.

Sigvatr wrote:Necron codex, GK codex. SoB getting slaughtered.

You'll have to explain how Necrons and GK are "most factions".
And I'm fairly sure I can find you some other races that get killed in these two codices as well.

Sigvatr wrote:I can provide data from 4 gaming clubs. 1 SoB player.

That does seem to be a very low number for your region, I'll give you that. But tell me honestly: was every other available race played by many more players? Eldar, Dark Eldar (before and after their reboot), etc? Because from all I've heard and seen, SoB armies are rare, but they shouldn't be that far off from the rest.

But that's the problem with anecdotal evidence, I guess. We only see what happens in our immediate vicinity. I can at least see better why you believe that nobody plays them now.

Sigvatr wrote:Indirectly. No popularity, vastly underplayed, less people are familiar with them, less might play them.

That didn't seem to be a problem for Dawn of War, though, which is a precedent applicable to this situation.
I remember that a lot of people actually thought that Relic invented them for this game, but that didn't stop this army from getting played.

Sigvatr wrote:And just having them because they are female? Don't get sexist, brah!

Apart from the SoB also bringing some other features to the table (angelic design, "Faith" mechanics) ... let me get this straight: you think it'd be "sexist" to add options for female characters to a game? That's a rather weird kind of logic to apply.

 Lynata wrote:

Sigvatr wrote:Necron codex, GK codex. SoB getting slaughtered.

You'll have to explain how Necrons and GK are "most factions".
And I'm fairly sure I can find you some other races that get killed in these two codices as well.

Yep, IG and Space Marines get butchered as well. In the old and the new necron dexes.

I'm sure if they ever release a SoB dex, they'll have the Sisters curb stomping everyone else.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I'm sure if they ever release a SoB dex, they'll have the Sisters curb stomping everyone else.

Ah, there's a fair bit of martyr deaths in their own books as well - sacrificing lives for victory/faith has always been a theme. It's just balanced with kickassery.
And even in the IG Codex you get to hear about how it took so and so many million men to hold that bridge or whatever.

I guess the portrayals are somewhat inconsistent across the board, else something like the Celestial Lions' fate or the Imperial Fists' 85% casualty rate following the Battle of Naeuysk Gorge (for recovering wrecked Rhinos, of all things) would appear in the Marine 'dex ... but instead their books are suspiciously absent of anything but glorious victories. I'm sure this lack of consistency in army portrayal can breed different perceptions amongst the playerbase.

 Lynata wrote:

Sigvatr wrote:The only biased part is their looks

And their supposedly "terrible" fluff or the frequency of these "massacres". Though I suppose this may be explained by you just not being as familiar with their background.

I actually saw a good point about this on Tv Tropes today. This is probably partly due to them not recieving proper updates as frequently. See, in an amry's own fluff, said army will usually stomp all other factions that they face, making the other factions appear weak. While other armies couteract this by having their own fluff full of their own stompings, the SoB getting less updates means that they don't massacre other factions as frequently.

Wow, looks like I really pissed JWrex off.

Well anyway, ignoring the hilarious off topic rant... I'm still probably not going to invest time and money in this game unless Sisters of IG are in it, quite simply because I have no desire to roleplay as a dude for hundreds of hours at a time. Already done that due to the past history of the gaming industry as a whole; not interested in doing it again.

 Melissia wrote:
Wow, looks like I really pissed JWrex off.

Well anyway, ignoring the hilarious off topic rant... I'm still probably not going to invest time and money in this game unless Sisters of IG are in it, quite simply because I have no desire to roleplay as a dude for hundreds of hours at a time. Already done that due to the past history of the gaming industry as a whole; not interested in doing it again.

You could play as female eldar or do you not like space elves?

I'd like to remind everyone to be aware of rule one please folks, some of you are awfully close to the line in here, and this thread is getting it a fair number of reports. So lets all try to remember we are adults here, or at least do our best to act like it. If you feel like you are replying while annoyed or angry, best bet is to take a step back and find five mins to relax.

 Cheesecat wrote:
You could play as female eldar or do you not like space elves?

My reasons for not liking that I'll PM you to keep this on topic.

I PMed Miguel the same general message a while back, I should note, but I don't know if he checks his PMs.

 Melissia wrote:

 Cheesecat wrote:
You could play as female eldar or do you not like space elves?

My reasons for not liking that I'll PM you to keep this on topic.

I PMed Miguel the same general message a while back, I should note, but I don't know if he checks his PMs.

Could you shoot me a copy of that PM too? I've been mostly stalking this thread quietly and am curious to know your reasons.

Me too, why not eldar, does it have to be SoB?

I PMed both of you. Suffice it to say, I just don't want this thread derailed in to that kind of a discussion. I doubt the mods would appreciate it either. So let's focus on the game instead.

The Independent Characters did an interview with the guys on the latest podcast that they have. I'm going to listen to it tomorrow and post if I learn anything that we don't already know.

 Lynata wrote:


But that's the problem with anecdotal evidence, I guess. We only see what happens in our immediate vicinity. I can at least see better why you believe that nobody plays them now.

Well, it's not just my personal meta. I heavily doubt the overall spread of SoB is much different in most other metas, even cross-continent. The main reason is the cost - you can't even get Sisters for cheap at ebay since they are fully made of metal. And yeah, with their current "codex", they really suck. No pun intended.

I remember that a lot of people actually thought that Relic invented them for this game, but that didn't stop this army from getting played.

Haha, yeah, I remember that too. People at Relic's forums claiming that they just invented a new faction to draw the female audience in

Got any input on player spread in regards to SoB? Can't recall seeing anything about it, ever.

... let me get this straight: you think it'd be "sexist" to add options for female characters to a game? That's a rather weird kind of logic to apply.

Haha, no way I would seriously make such a claim, hence the smileys. I was alluding to certain other members in here who frequently do so

Plus: the game already has female characters confirmed.

What I am honestly interested in, however:

What would be your primary reason for SoB being a launch faction?

...or, to be more precise:

Why should SoB be prioritized over far more popular factions?

I am a male and I would enjoy playing as a SoB. I think it's important to have female characters even if female gamers aren't a target demographic.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Lynata wrote:


But that's the problem with anecdotal evidence, I guess. We only see what happens in our immediate vicinity. I can at least see better why you believe that nobody plays them now.

Well, it's not just my personal meta. I heavily doubt the overall spread of SoB is much different in most other metas, even cross-continent. The main reason is the cost - you can't even get Sisters for cheap at ebay since they are fully made of metal. And yeah, with their current "codex", they really suck. No pun intended.

I remember that a lot of people actually thought that Relic invented them for this game, but that didn't stop this army from getting played.

Haha, yeah, I remember that too. People at Relic's forums claiming that they just invented a new faction to draw the female audience in

Got any input on player spread in regards to SoB? Can't recall seeing anything about it, ever.

... let me get this straight: you think it'd be "sexist" to add options for female characters to a game? That's a rather weird kind of logic to apply.

Haha, no way I would seriously make such a claim, hence the smileys. I was alluding to certain other members in here who frequently do so

Plus: the game already has female characters confirmed.

What I am honestly interested in, however:

What would be your primary reason for SoB being a launch faction?

...or, to be more precise:

Why should SoB be prioritized over far more popular factions?

I can see why some people are saying that. As an MMO, there has to be several options from which to choose and I'm not okay with allowing the female playerbase to choose between Eldar and...well, moar Eldar. As much as I hate lore spoiling and anything of the sort, it's still an MMO and all the other things can be sorted out after it gets a minimum fanbase. Whereas, if some people don't want to play the game because they don't identify with anything in it, it could hurt things on the long run. Hell, I'm a DE fan myself (in case it wasn't obvious from the sig and avatar) and I don't like the fact that they're not there at launch, especially since their popularity grew with the relaunch of the Codex, but I like normal Eldar too, so, for me, it's fine. However, as much as you'd like to rage around that your fav race isn't in the game, you have to think objectively: launching the game with all the races will take precious time from developing other features of the game properly. As someone previously stated, not even THQ launched with all the stuff at first and the other races came only with SS.

Since then, all we got were SM, SM and even more SMs...we get it, in the grimdark future of WH40K, there is only war and that war is lead by marines as its spearhead. But, the fact is (and I could never understand why people like them so much) that Marines are BORING, at least for me. Sure, there are exceptions, such as your not so average Chapter like Blood Angels with their Black Rage squadrons, Salamanders with meltas, flamethrowers and reptilian theme, Grey Knights, GW etc, but most of the others are plain and boring. Mostly same weapons, same tactics, same looks. And that goes for CSM as well, unless we're talking about Legions that are dedicated to a certain Chaos Deity or the ones that are renegades (again, subjective PoV here). Since SS, we've only had games, movies, and whatnot that have the Marines as their main protagonists, usually fighting CSM and all of them ending in killing a demon lord. What's more, even the Chapters/Legions were only represented by Khornates and the almighty champions of justice and mundane: the Ultrasmurfs.

In a world so diverse and branching as WH40K, ofc most people would like to associate themselves with a hulking beast of several feet that has the power to rip an Ork in half with his bare hands and fights either for the Light - SM or Darkness - CSM (major generalization here, to keep the post from spreading even more). So, if, for example, people can only see themselves playing as any of the marines, the others who can't draw any parallel from them towards any other race will likely not play the game in the first place. If marines weren't in the game, it wouldn't be popular with a huge amount of players, TT or not, so, some things must be sacrificed in order to help the game have a start, then more will be added. As much as I hate seeing a Marine on anything related to WH and as sick and tired I am of doing so, I shall grit my teeth and wish Eternal Crusade the best of luck so that, once it has its foundations, it can add more content such as the DE I hope to see. Sadly, not all the people think the same due to several circumstances (speaking of which, Mel, could you PM me with why you do not want to play Eldar, I'm extremely curios as well).

In the end, it's down to realizing that this is a game, moreso, an ONLINE game and not TT, so all the stuff will come in time or it might not even come at all. It all depends on the players, really. And if not having my favorite race in the game since day one offers me a greater chance of having them after the first or second DLC, xpac, w/e, I'm contempt and will gladly await their arrival.

TL;DR: Different people have different ways of thinking including believing that their fav race should be prioritized over others at start without taking into account that without a steady start, it might all crumble and rot away. That's why SoB should be at launch, that's why the same thing is applicable for Crons, Tau, DE, GK and whatever one might have expectations for. It's quite simple

EDIT: as orkybenji said, I'm also interested in SoB because of their mechanics and looks that differ from your average, heavy armored, 3 meter walking tank with a chansword.

Maybe you should just start another thread Mel as to why you don't like the Eldar.

I too am interested why you are not satisfied with the overly sexualized Eldar Melissia. Would you be if they were more modest, or even ugly? Then again, I've never seen an "ugly" SoB either. Would the Eldar speak to you if they were less of fantasy sex objects as the watered down S&M SoB or is it just fandom of the faction itself? Either in my eyes seems like a legitimate answer and stands upon my (and now a lot of other's) previous point that really nobody in our community will be happy until their favorite faction can beat down the rest of the 12.

Indeed, I'm a male, and I won't be satisfied with this game until I can custom make some IG and go special ops with him. That said, I often play female role playing characters for the sole purpose that people I play against on MMO's tend to rage more when they get crushed by the visual representation of a girl - regardless of who's controlling her.

On the bright side however, I also see a positive side of having only the current factions at launch. That being each will have a well established player base, likely with an elite level of troops iconic to their faction. Adding the IG, SoB, Tau, DE, and the others next wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea because it does the following two things:

1. The four oldest and most iconic races to the IP will be the Kings of the Sandlot, making the other races more appealing because they'll be underdogs and the shiny new toys to players unfamiliar to the game. Those familiar to the game will flock to their favorite race regardless.

2. The political atmosphere of the game will change dramatically. IG, SM, and SoB, pair naturally together. Doing this right away would create a huge imbalance in the game. Remember the argument about every SM fanboi flocking to that corner? Now add me and every other IG fanboi (made unfathomably worse if IG are also F2P), and the fans of SoB, being (hypothetically) all the women who might actually play the game. Doing this at launch would be a nightmare. Waiting even a month to add these factions as DLC would mean that the power of each faction could be up for grabs. Ork, Chaos, or Eldar /ect. players could make an alt on the IG, vote themselves into the war council and make sure that they split the power of the IoM to buy time against the juggernaut that is the 3 race strong IoM. It fits perfectly into the lore, makes an awesome game mechanic and hey, waiting a month playing Orks or something else just means you'll know what you're doing when the DLC comes out.. as well as being able to return the political favor....

Sigvatr wrote:What I am honestly interested in, however:
What would be your primary reason for SoB being a launch faction?

You should ask other people about that, for I am "honestly biased". Of course my chief reason for wanting to have them is because they're my favourite faction.

That being said, I have a feeling that a lot of posters here would prioritise their favourite faction/s for the same reason, regardless of whether or not they choose to hide it behind other arguments. Thinking about this being a 40k forum with fans who already have a pre-established opinion about the armies, I now am not sure that anyone here can be entirely objective about it. More interesting might be a question like "barring your favourity army, which race would you like to see" ... (for the record, in my case I'd vote Imperial Guard)

Then again, since our preferences would invariably end up influencing what we'll end up playing, I don't even know if it makes sense to argue against this bias.

What I *can* do is present arguments for why the Sisters of Battle could be interesting to "the average gamer", as in, someone who doesn't know much of 40k yet and has no favourite army yet, and as such no established bias that would "taint" their perception of other armies.
In which case I'd point to their gothic/knightly design which is even more "archaic" than that of the Space Marines, the unique effect of their faith that would surely make for some interesting game mechanics, which in turn means a more complex and varied gameplay experience (by normally being somewhat less capable than a Space Marine, but at the same time having the ability to temporarily surpass them with clever use of Acts of Faith), and of course the appeal of basically playing a kickass Jeanne d'Arc kind of heroine with sci-fi power armour and devastating weapons. Mind you, a number of gamers, including (if not mostly) male ones, has come to get bored by the "bald white male" cliché that the Space Marines epitomise. Femshep, Samus Aran, Nilin, Lara Croft all have their own appeal, and I daresay the SoB could profit from it as well.


Note that I never said the Sisters should be a launch faction, though. I'd be as surprised as delighted if they were, but (like I mentioned to Miguel in the e-mail I wrote) I can completely understand why they chose the 4 factions they did. All I'd like to see would be the Sisters and the IG to become playable as soon as possible.

DemetriDominov wrote:Then again, I've never seen an "ugly" SoB either.

I suppose it depends on how we define "ugly", but ...



There is some variance to be found. I think it depends chiefly on their age, tbh. Your fresh-out-of-the-novitiate rank and file Battle Sister will be 17 to 18 years of age, and look like someone who has been groomed for the job for their entire childhood. The veterans ... not so much. Scars, cybernetic replacements, a more grim facial expression ... and that's before you get granny status like Miss Imperium M39 up there.

Stop making gak up and claiming that it's true about me. I like Eldar.

As for Marines, yeah, tyhey're boring. Chaos marines are no different, either.

Variance indeed, that being far less than any other faction in the game lol:



If there was any less variance to the available pictures of the SoB, most people would honestly think that every Sister descends from the Order of Our Martyred Lady.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
Stop making gak up and claiming that it's true about me. I like Eldar.

As for Marines, yeah, tyhey're boring. Chaos marines are no different, either.

Not claiming anything is true. Asking a question that has yet to be answered.

You claimed that I hate eldar. I might grant your request if you retract that claim.

As for GW's stupid treatment of Sisters, that's hardly the fault of the faction . That's the fault of GW being run by people who don't care about the hobby.

 Melissia wrote:
You claimed that I hate eldar. I might respect your request if you retract that claim.

As for GW's stupid treatment of Sisters, that's hardly the fault of the faction . That's the fault of GW being run by people who don't care about the hobby.

Find even an inclination of the word hate in my question and I'll find a gross oversight of my post's intent. I merely asked why you are dissatisfied with the Eldar, why there is little incentive for you to play them, or even not play the game at all if the SoB aren't in it.

I did edit the post to include the first sentence, which is stupid because I remember you actually PMing me about your fondness of Orks (and perhaps the Eldar, I can't remember.. long days at work leave me forgetful and easily agitated.)

As to your second statement, the evidence is clear: if GW really cared they'd actually give the SoB their own codex... their first after something like 15 years...

You really can't comprehend why this:

Maybe you should just start another thread Mel as to why you don't like the Eldar.

... is taken as the fallacious loaded question that it is?