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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 19:09:04
Subject: Is there room for another bits manufacturer?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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A while back I had sculpted a number of armored shoulder pads compatible with Space Marines (or any other power armor model) and was thinking of selling resin castings of them.
I also sculpted some alternate jump packs, head crests, tabards, extra armor and weapons for vehicles and have a number of other ideas I'd like to start on as well as some ideas for add-ons for Eldar models (I'm already working on an alternate jetbike kit).
Add on parts is just a starting point. I have a number of sketches and designs of my own for Power Armor Troops, Vehicles etc. that I'll eventually move into.
There are already a number of other companies selling similar items, mostly compatible with Space Marines. Scibor, Anvil Industries, Puppets War, Maxmini and Chapterhouse Studios to name a few.
I was just wondering about the recent legal issues regarding alternate bits. I've read through some of the CHS vs GW paperwork and the list of what CHS cannot now sell (which IMHO seems ridiculous) so some of the parts I had made way back when I don't think I'll be able to sell.
IANAL but some of the armored shoulder pads I made might be similar to the ones CHS can't sell now since they infringed on GW's IP (or copyright, trademark etc) but can't find any pictures of those parts, just a list with a short description of the part in a recent court document. If they are then I'd like to just get rid of those ones and avoid any legal issues from the start.
Does anyone have pictures of the parts, specifically the shoulder pads, that CHS cannot now sell?
Should I wait to see the result of the appeal? I'd assume that some of the decisions might get changed since it seems to me ridiculous that CHS can sell a shoulder pad with rivets, but the same style shoulder pad with a Roman Numeral on it or a plain one they can't.
Some of the shoulder pads I made are the "heresy terminator" style, but others are "plain" and for power armored models (plain meaning no insignias, heraldry etc).
I can post some pics of them later if that would help, I don't have my camera on me right now.
Any thought's or suggestions you guys have would be helpful.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 19:11:51
Subject: Is there room for another bits manufacturer?
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Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge
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There's always room for more, so long as the quality's there. Hell, some of the bits manufacturers out there make bits that I find look like Playdoh, yet they still do pretty well for themselves. If you're doing something different or well, you'll do alright.
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Check out my Youtube channel!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 19:15:53
Subject: Is there room for another bits manufacturer?
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Fixture of Dakka
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That's the key right there, IMHO. Did I need to do a( IG) Platoon, 3-5 Vet squads, 2 PCS and a CCS in Pith helmets? Hell no! But after I saw the awesomeness vic (Victoria Lamb) has created
I pulled the trigger. If you Build them, we will come!
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"But i'm more than just a little curious, how you're planning to go about making your amends, to the dead?" -The Noose-APC
"Little angel go away
Come again some other day
The devil has my ear today
I'll never hear a word you say" Weak and Powerless - APC
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 19:17:49
Subject: Is there room for another bits manufacturer?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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If you guys are wondering about the quality of my sculpting you can check out my portfolio here:
http://mechanicalhorizon.deviantart.com/gallery/
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 19:18:07
Subject: Is there room for another bits manufacturer?
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Sniping Reverend Moira
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Chapterhouse is still selling stiff and IMO their stuff looks like garbage and their casts are sub par. Always room for new, original stuff.
Seriously, just be original, call your stuff "Space Macho Men" shoulders. And you'll be fine.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 19:19:03
Subject: Is there room for another bits manufacturer?
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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Brother SRM wrote:There's always room for more, so long as the quality's there. Hell, some of the bits manufacturers out there make bits that I find look like Playdoh, yet they still do pretty well for themselves. If you're doing something different or well, you'll do alright.
+1
I will however say, that for the long term health of your business, try and identify a demand that isn't quite so well catered for as Marine pads and Greatcoat guardsman (as an example)
Kromlech are the Ork people for instance, Paulson are quite Tau focused. To my knowledge, nobody really focuses on daemon bits, Dark Eldar, Eldar or Necrons. Not to say nobody does anything for those factions, but if you specialised it would be a point of difference for you. If you did daemons, that would give you two systems to sell to, and would have so much fluff friendly latitude in your designs, you could avoid any "Imperial entanglements."
I collect daemons, just to declare my interests!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/12 19:21:12
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 19:20:19
Subject: Is there room for another bits manufacturer?
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Sniping Reverend Moira
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Wow. So you've done a lot of work for privateer! And a lot of their good stuff. Awesome. Like I said, just do original stuff that is compatible and call it something generic and you'll be fine.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 19:20:19
Subject: Is there room for another bits manufacturer?
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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cincydooley wrote:Chapterhouse is still selling stiff and IMO their stuff looks like garbage and their casts are sub par. Always room for new, original stuff.
Seriously, just be original, call your stuff "Space Macho Men" shoulders. And you'll be fine.
Your opinion about CHS is well known, kindly stop quoting it as fact. How their stuff looks is subjective and I have never had a single casting issue with multiple purchases.
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We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 19:20:58
Subject: Is there room for another bits manufacturer?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Seriously nice chain weapons!
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"But i'm more than just a little curious, how you're planning to go about making your amends, to the dead?" -The Noose-APC
"Little angel go away
Come again some other day
The devil has my ear today
I'll never hear a word you say" Weak and Powerless - APC
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 19:24:49
Subject: Is there room for another bits manufacturer?
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Sniping Reverend Moira
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azreal13 wrote: cincydooley wrote:Chapterhouse is still selling stiff and IMO their stuff looks like garbage and their casts are sub par. Always room for new, original stuff.
Seriously, just be original, call your stuff "Space Macho Men" shoulders. And you'll be fine.
Your opinion about CHS is well known, kindly stop quoting it as fact. How their stuff looks is subjective and I have never had a single casting issue with multiple purchases.
Who quoted it as fact? Oh. No one. But nice try. Your passive aggressive "I'm always right" schtick is pretty tiresome.
To the OP: again, produce quality original stuff and you'll be fine.
Alternate Chaplain type weapons and librarian type weapons would certainly be popular, as would alt "Space elf" heads for both DE and Eldar.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 19:27:22
Subject: Is there room for another bits manufacturer?
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Fixture of Dakka
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cincydooley wrote: azreal13 wrote: cincydooley wrote:Chapterhouse is still selling stiff and IMO their stuff looks like garbage and their casts are sub par. Always room for new, original stuff.
Seriously, just be original, call your stuff "Space Macho Men" shoulders. And you'll be fine.
Your opinion about CHS is well known, kindly stop quoting it as fact. How their stuff looks is subjective and I have never had a single casting issue with multiple purchases.
Who quoted it as fact? Oh. No one. But nice try. Your passive aggressive "I'm always right" schtick is pretty tiresome.
To the OP: again, produce quality original stuff and you'll be fine.
Alternate Chaplain type weapons and librarian type weapons would certainly be popular, as would alt "Space elf" heads for both DE and Eldar.
I'll leave the fighting to you two, but I will second, third and fourth Librarian/Chaplain Bits, weapons and most importantly (to me!), Shoulder pads!
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"But i'm more than just a little curious, how you're planning to go about making your amends, to the dead?" -The Noose-APC
"Little angel go away
Come again some other day
The devil has my ear today
I'll never hear a word you say" Weak and Powerless - APC
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 19:33:50
Subject: Is there room for another bits manufacturer?
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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cincydooley wrote: azreal13 wrote: cincydooley wrote:Chapterhouse is still selling stiff and IMO their stuff looks like garbage and their casts are sub par. Always room for new, original stuff.
Seriously, just be original, call your stuff "Space Macho Men" shoulders. And you'll be fine.
Your opinion about CHS is well known, kindly stop quoting it as fact. How their stuff looks is subjective and I have never had a single casting issue with multiple purchases.
Who quoted it as fact? Oh. No one. But nice try. Your passive aggressive "I'm always right" schtick is pretty tiresome.
To the OP: again, produce quality original stuff and you'll be fine.
Alternate Chaplain type weapons and librarian type weapons would certainly be popular, as would alt "Space elf" heads for both DE and Eldar.
Nope, hands up, on this one I just didn't see the IMO, to the point that I checked to see if the post I quoted had been edited. Put this down to too much sun, and conditioning based on Cinceys previous with anything CHS!
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We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 19:34:33
Subject: Is there room for another bits manufacturer?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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alarmingrick wrote:I'll leave the fighting to you two, but I will second, third and fourth Librarian/Chaplain Bits, weapons and most importantly (to me!), Shoulder pads!
Chaplain shoulder pads might be difficult, since as far as I can tell CHS lost to GW on having a "skull head" as an alternate Chaplain head and also a "skull shaped" shoulder pad.
If you have a specific idea for this please feel free to PM me.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 19:42:47
Subject: Is there room for another bits manufacturer?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Quality Sculpts with reliable quality casts will find a market
there are some 3rd party bits makers that do both already,
and plenty of others that can do one of the two but not both
(and it's the casting failures that are a real pain, if a slightly rough sculpt catches your eye you know what you're going to get. If what could be an excellent bit turns up covered in flash over the detail, or bubbles or badly mould slipped you're stuck trying for a replacement)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 19:43:24
Subject: Is there room for another bits manufacturer?
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Fixture of Dakka
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mechanicalhorizon wrote: alarmingrick wrote:I'll leave the fighting to you two, but I will second, third and fourth Librarian/Chaplain Bits, weapons and most importantly (to me!), Shoulder pads!
Chaplain shoulder pads might be difficult, since as far as I can tell CHS lost to GW on having a "skull head" as an alternate Chaplain head and also a "skull shaped" shoulder pad.
If you have a specific idea for this please feel free to PM me.
I'm actually more interested in the 2 horned skull pad of the Libby's.
For the Chappy's, maybe you could do a double headed eagle behing the skull on the pad?
Something akin to what the Crozius tops can look like?
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"But i'm more than just a little curious, how you're planning to go about making your amends, to the dead?" -The Noose-APC
"Little angel go away
Come again some other day
The devil has my ear today
I'll never hear a word you say" Weak and Powerless - APC
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 19:55:12
Subject: Is there room for another bits manufacturer?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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mechanicalhorizon wrote: Does anyone have pictures of the parts, specifically the shoulder pads, that CHS cannot now sell? There's so many documents, it is hard to find what you are looking for, but try going to the publicly accessible docket and looking at: Document 289 Exhibits 1-I and 1-II (This is GW's claim chart identifying products alleged in the second lawsuit) Document 224 Exhibit 6 parts 2-18 (This is CHS's claim binder, putting all accused works side by side with asserted works) The case changed a great deal over time, and the judgment makes reference to product entries in the trial exhibits. Those may not be the same as the documents I noted above. In fact, they are probably different. I don't think those trial exhibits were ever attached to anything on the docket. If they were, I would love for someone to tell me where as it would be very interesting to see them. In any case, you should get legal counsel. It isn't guaranteed protection or anything, but no one here is going to give you any substantive advice other than go get yourself a lawyer if you are serious about this. No one wants to give advice that you might take as some kind of professional advice, or that winds up getting you into trouble, etc. etc. The upshot is that there are, as you mentioned, plenty of businesses that do what CHS does and what you are interested in doing. Several have been contacted by GW, Andy Jones has said that he would be in contact with others still, and GW actually sued CHS. That is a pretty good indication of how GW feels about the market under discussion. Now, as to whether GW is right or wrong in its views, suffice it to say that a jury mostly disagreed with GW. However, that does not create binding precedent, nor are those questions yet settled. Ultimately you will have to make your own risk assessment, and I suggest that you engage the services of competent legal counsel to aid you in making such decisions. On a personal note, I would hate to see GW's litigiousness have a "chilling effect," as Posner would describe it, on creativity and business. I wish you luck in your endeavors.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/12 19:57:11
Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 20:03:10
Subject: Is there room for another bits manufacturer?
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Infiltrating Prowler
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Brother SRM wrote:There's always room for more, so long as the quality's there. Hell, some of the bits manufacturers out there make bits that I find look like Playdoh, yet they still do pretty well for themselves. If you're doing something different or well, you'll do alright.
+1 again. There is always room for quality bit manufacturers. Question I have is who is going to be casting the bits? Are you going to be doing it yourself or having another company doing the casting for you? Remember a lot of casting shops are tied up with the KS boom. So finding a quality shop maybe pretty hard and expensive. Doing the casting yourself might be another option if you have the room and time. The casting quality of the bits will be what makes or breaks you. For example, love the sculpts from Puppet War, but people have been posting the crap casts they have been getting in the mail from them.
As for what is alright to work on, Maddermax posted a list of the ruled items from the CHS/ GW lawsuit over in the thread following that:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/5310/355433.page#5785002
Given you have a far more impressive resume that almost all the other bit sites out there will also give you a leg up. If you were starting to release stuff, you could be more on par with companies like Avatars of War, Crocodile Games, and such. Companies founded by professional sculptors. Do you have any original non-IP sculpts you could show off?
*edit* and another +1 to weeble1000's post. It is a grey area you will be operating in and even though things are getting better defined.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/12 20:11:15
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 20:04:55
Subject: Is there room for another bits manufacturer?
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Sniping Reverend Moira
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I'm still looking for someone to do a non-terribad not-Mephiston sculpt. I'd pay an easy $30 for that.
Seconded on the horned librarius pad. And wow. Those chain weapons are amazing. I'd buy those.
@weeble - are joints like Kromlech and puppets war more protected since they're in Poland?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 20:10:01
Subject: Is there room for another bits manufacturer?
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Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot
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There is always room for bits makers, especially in the US, as everyone seems to be across an ocean.
At least anyone worth buying from.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 20:14:29
Subject: Is there room for another bits manufacturer?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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OP, please ignore this. Please ignore this entirely. In fact, it may be beneficial to ignore cincydooley.
No offense intended to cincydooley (I apologize if offense is given), but there is no way to say "you'll be fine" with such certainty. And of course there is the nasty implication that CHS was sued because, compared to others in the same market, its products "look like garbage."
Many of the claims made against CHS could, almost without any editing, be made against Privateer Press, Wyrd, Mantic Games, Battlefront, Scibor, Maximini, Lego, Joss Whedon, and Barack Obama's birth certificate. So you have incredibly broad claims on the one hand, and on the other why GW decided to sue CHS in particular. One is an easily ascertainable fact, the other would be pure speculation. Being right does not mean you can't be accused of being wrong.
Let me repeat that:
Being right does not mean you can't get sued.
No one really knows why GW decided to sue CHS, but the claims made were broad enough to cover virtually any product in the wargaming miniatures industry and beyond. In fact, GW absolutely claimed that CHS's entire business infringed GW's exclusive rights. So, one would think that anyone else with even a remotely similar business should be thinking about, and should have been thinking about for the past 2 and a half years, what they will do if GW sues them.
Like I said above, the issue is one of risk assessment. Qualified legal counsel can help you to understand what risks there are and how to mitigate them (if possible). I am not making any statement about what the risks are in particular, just that thinking that there is no risk would be reckless, shortsighted, and foolish. Consequently, please, please ignore what cincydooley wrote.
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Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 20:25:45
Subject: Is there room for another bits manufacturer?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Thanks Weeble1000, I am going through the court documents and likely will have to speak to an attorney.
I figured if I could find out just what the items CHS lost and make sure my own sculpts don't look like those parts I could avoid a lot of difficulty from the start.
The list of items GW won on is good, but I'm still trying to find pictures of them all. If I can match up my current sculpts with the pictures of those parts CHS lost to GW it would give me a good idea on what to avoid and if any of my current sculpts cannot be used.
silent25 wrote:
+1 again. There is always room for quality bit manufacturers. Question I have is who is going to be casting the bits? Are you going to be doing it yourself or having another company doing the casting for you? Remember a lot of casting shops are tied up with the KS boom. So finding a quality shop maybe pretty hard and expensive. Doing the casting yourself might be another option if you have the room and time. The casting quality of the bits will be what makes or breaks you. For example, love the sculpts from Puppet War, but people have been posting the crap casts they have been getting in the mail from them.
I'll be doing the moldmaking and casting myself. I've been doing it long enough (about 20 years professionally) I know I can make excellent casts.
As I said above I did find that list, but having pictures of those parts would be better so I can match up my current sculpts to see if they would be too close and infringe on GW's IP.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 20:55:17
Subject: Is there room for another bits manufacturer?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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mechanicalhorizon wrote:Thanks Weeble1000, I am going through the court documents and likely will have to speak to an attorney. I figured if I could find out just what the items CHS lost and make sure my own sculpts don't look like those parts I could avoid a lot of difficulty from the start. The list of items GW won on is good, but I'm still trying to find pictures of them all. If I can match up my current sculpts with the pictures of those parts CHS lost to GW it would give me a good idea on what to avoid and if any of my current sculpts cannot be used. Again, be careful man. Rather than looking at the verdict and basing decisions on the result of what one jury did with one set of facts filtered through lots of rulings made by a particular federal judge, I recommend you talk with an attorney, get acquainted with your rights and the rights of other artists and sellers of goods/services, and make what you personally feel are products that respect these rights and carry what you feel is an acceptable amount of risk. One might feel saying the above amounts to a bunch of nothing, but it is unlikely that anyone qualified to give a substantive opinion would say more. A decision out of the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals would carry much more weight than the current preliminary judgment. That is a fact. The outcome of the CHS case could impact GW's desire to engage in future litigation, one way or another. It may or may not hamper GW's ability to do it, regardless of the company's wants, desires, or plans. The CHS verdict absolutely has drawn some very clear lines for CHS. That is a fact. Now, I will say that one way or another, the CHS case is incredibly important in the industry. Chapterhouse has shown that one can in fact engage in a successful defense against Games Workshop. Chapterhouse has shown that Games Workshop's claims against its entire business failed to convince both a federal judge and a jury. Chapterhouse has helped to raise awareness of copyright and trademark laws amongst those in the hobby and the industry, and it has drawn the attention of some very heavy hitters in the US IP law arena to the world of fantasy table-top wargaming. Games Workshop's actions drew down the full force of multiple powerful, successful, and influential law firms. And the Chapterhouse case has helped to provide not only a wealth of publicly available documents, but also demonstrated a thus far largely successful roadmap to defeating the types of claims made by Games Workshop. Much of that work, such as Dr. Lionel Bently's expert report, is now out there, accessible, and able to be easily weaponized against Games Workshop in the future. All of these are good things. If you want to be part of the table-top accessories market, I think it is a good idea to know what happened in the Chapterhouse Studios case. I also think it would be a good idea to talk to other players in the industry. In fact, I think it would be great if people in the industry actually got together to talk about the Chapterhouse case; about what it means for the industry, what effects it may have (if any), and what it means for Games Workshop in particular. As I see it, Games Workshop has implicitly created an environment in which all accessory companies are in the same boat. Games Workshop would probably love it if these companies avoided talking with each other, threw around blame, pointed fingers, and alienated themselves from one another. But I will tell you something important. Chapterhouse Studios was not alone. A wide variety of people stood up and lent a hand. The hobby community refused to ignore what was going on and shined a harsh light on it. In short, people got involved and worked together towards mutually beneficial ends. And as a result, a comparative Goliath in this industry was brought down to it knees. I think the third party accessory industry writ large could take a step further and communicate, open dialogues, work together, set their own standards, and help each other out, even if they are in direct competition. Just something to think about.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/12 20:57:52
Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 21:14:02
Subject: Is there room for another bits manufacturer?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Thanks Weeble100, you gave me a lot to think about.
It's likely I won't be advertising these as " GW" alternate parts, such as "Shoulder pad compatible with GW Space Marine" since there are a number of other companies that make powered armor models that they could be used on, such as Anvil Industries and CHS power armor models, so my descriptions will be more generic.
It's more the "look and feel" of the items I was worried about. There's a fine line between making a product with the design aesthetic of another companies models and making something that copies another companies models.
For instance, there's an artillery piece I just started that could be used for just about any sci-fi wargame. It will have the "standard" weapons like a laser cannon, plasma cannon etc, etc but not meant to be used solely as an alternate to a GW model.
When I get my camera later today I'll post some pics of a few shoulder pads I made.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thanks. I sculpted those for GW's Inquisitor game, but AFAIK they discontinued them a few years ago.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/12 21:41:13
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 21:47:34
Subject: Is there room for another bits manufacturer?
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Infiltrating Prowler
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weeble1000 wrote:
But I will tell you something important. Chapterhouse Studios was not alone. A wide variety of people stood up and lent a hand. The hobby community refused to ignore what was going on and shined a harsh light on it. In short, people got involved and worked together towards mutually beneficial ends. And as a result, a comparative Goliath in this industry was brought down to it knees. I think the third party accessory industry writ large could take a step further and communicate, open dialogues, work together, set their own standards, and help each other out, even if they are in direct competition.
OT: Beyond several sculptors who did work for CHS, I wasn't aware of an industry wide groundswell of support for CHS. From comments from sculptors on others sites, CHS was regarded with derision and saw the whole lawsuit as a lose/lose situation for them. Even Nick's own comments in the CHS KS thread sounded as if there had been little support from the sculpting community and had been essentially fighting GW alone. But then I remember Nick's comments from several years ago when he started posting his stuff for sale. He was not the most tactful in his choice of words.
@Machanicalhorizon: It sounds definitely have bigger plans than just bits and not- SM parts. Eager to see the artillery. Also, any plans for some big brutish figs? Given the Hordes work you did, you have a definite flair for that style of fig. I personally think there is still a distinct lack of good minotaurs out there currently. Just my take, but don't base any plans on my preference for figs.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/12 21:53:45
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 22:02:42
Subject: Is there room for another bits manufacturer?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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silent25 wrote:@Machanicalhorizon: It sounds definitely have bigger plans than just bits and not- SM parts. Eager to see the artillery. Also, any plans for some big brutish figs? Given the Hordes work you did, you have a definite flair for that style of fig. I personally think there is still a distinct lack of good minotaurs out there currently. Just my take, but don't base any plans on my preference for figs.
I do have plans for some larger monsters, Minotaurs and Beastmen included, but time and money are the issues right now.
I've also been working on some Ancient Chinese models that can be used for armies from the Qin Dynasty through the Three Kingdoms period but those are still in progress and I also want to do those in plastic (which will take some $$$).
I just have to take my time and tackle one project at a time. For starters I'll have about 50 items (shoulder pads, tabards etc), mostly conversion bits. The full sculpts will come later.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/12 22:05:17
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 22:05:49
Subject: Is there room for another bits manufacturer?
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Fixture of Dakka
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mechanicalhorizon wrote:silent25 wrote:@Machanicalhorizon: It sounds definitely have bigger plans than just bits and not- SM parts. Eager to see the artillery. Also, any plans for some big brutish figs? Given the Hordes work you did, you have a definite flair for that style of fig. I personally think there is still a distinct lack of good minotaurs out there currently. Just my take, but don't base any plans on my preference for figs.
I do have plans for some larger monsters, Minotaurs and Beastmen included, but time and money are the issues right now. I just have to take my time and tackle one project at a time. For starters I'll have about 50 items (shoulder pads, tabards etc), mostly conversion bits. The full sculpts will come later.
Plan your work, work your plan! Sound like you're thinking in the correct way, IMHO.
Selling the little things that are easier to do and mass produce for a cheaper price make
perfect sense.
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"But i'm more than just a little curious, how you're planning to go about making your amends, to the dead?" -The Noose-APC
"Little angel go away
Come again some other day
The devil has my ear today
I'll never hear a word you say" Weak and Powerless - APC
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 22:39:19
Subject: Is there room for another bits manufacturer?
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Infiltrating Prowler
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mechanicalhorizon wrote:silent25 wrote:@Machanicalhorizon: It sounds definitely have bigger plans than just bits and not- SM parts. Eager to see the artillery. Also, any plans for some big brutish figs? Given the Hordes work you did, you have a definite flair for that style of fig. I personally think there is still a distinct lack of good minotaurs out there currently. Just my take, but don't base any plans on my preference for figs.
I do have plans for some larger monsters, Minotaurs and Beastmen included, but time and money are the issues right now.
I've also been working on some Ancient Chinese models that can be used for armies from the Qin Dynasty through the Three Kingdoms period but those are still in progress and I also want to do those in plastic (which will take some $$$).
I just have to take my time and tackle one project at a time. For starters I'll have about 50 items (shoulder pads, tabards etc), mostly conversion bits. The full sculpts will come later.
But isn't time and money always the issue? Really looking forward to these  Going for more traditional route with the Chinese figs or something more along the lines of the Dynasty Warriors video game (exaggerated/heroic)? Hope to see a mix of stuff out of you. Like seeing more original work from sculptors, but understand the not- GW bit business pays the bills.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 23:45:30
Subject: Is there room for another bits manufacturer?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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silent25 wrote:
OT: Beyond several sculptors who did work for CHS, I wasn't aware of an industry wide groundswell of support for CHS. From comments from sculptors on others sites, CHS was regarded with derision and saw the whole lawsuit as a lose/lose situation for them. Even Nick's own comments in the CHS KS thread sounded as if there had been little support from the sculpting community and had been essentially fighting GW alone. But then I remember Nick's comments from several years ago when he started posting his stuff for sale. He was not the most tactful in his choice of words.
And that's just my point isn't it. In spite of a lack of a 'groundswell' of support, CHS did get help, and at the very least the community paid attention to the case, discussed it, and has kept it in the spotlight. Bob Naismith testified, for example, and I can't believe a major US firm got involved on a lark. How did they even know about it? You have experts from Chicago, New York, and England.
The question is, what more could have been done had there been a 'groundswell' of support? What benefits could there be going forward if, instead of being derisive, instead of turning a blind eye, the people in the industry communicated about that which they all have a collective interest in, even though it may not be readily apparent? This industry, even taking all table-top wargaming together, is not very big. I think that even with just a bit of communication, third party accessory companies could be very powerful in the industry. Collectively, between contacts across the world, strong relationships with a vast array of miniature sculptors and artists, savvy, nibble, and creative business managers, a ton of goodwill in the community, and a collectively very significant customer base, these companies taken together would have a lot of "juice."
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/12 23:46:09
Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/13 04:11:00
Subject: Is there room for another bits manufacturer?
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Sniping Reverend Moira
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@weeble - I think you focused on the wrong part of my commentary. The real focus needs to be on ORIGINAL. Quality, as many people have said already, is entirely subjective and has no bearing on any findings in the case, nor is it where I intended my focus to be.
While you're much more the expert than I am I'd contend that original work and pieces that are intended for use with other products should be relatively "safe." Regardless how you feel about CHS (and I've made it clear I'm not a fan) it was pretty obvious that they had product that was in no way shape or form "original". They also had products that I didn't mind. I was actually disappointed the not-eldar Female Farseer was found to infringe because, despite being clearly inspired by the Eldar range, it was one of their most original pieces. We're it not produced by CHS and the proportions were a bit better, I'd have bought it, just like I bought the alternative Ragnar model from Legendarion.
And in that vein. I'd also be willing to buy original alternative sculpts of Mephiston, Tycho, Wolf Priest Ulrik, etc. Automatically Appended Next Post: Also let me make it clear that it is not CHS place in an aftermarket parts industry that makes me dislike them. I actually have no problem with alternative bits makers as a whole. I dislike Chapterhouse primarily because of poor service experiences with them from the first (and only) product I purchased from them coupled with Valluci's arrogant, flippant attitude online. It's quite similar to the folks that don't like Romeo from Battlefoam because of his "Internet persona".
The fact that I think there are better alternative bits makers than CHS is secondary, or perhaps even tertiary, to the primary few reasons I dislike them.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/13 04:18:09
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/13 06:00:15
Subject: Re:Is there room for another bits manufacturer?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I think there's always room for people breaking into the model market (and 3rd party bitz). They key is finding a niche that you have a flair for and doing a style of work that your sculpting talents capture best. Even if another company is doing a product that is simular to one you'd like to do it can still be viable as every artist has their own style and look which can make your stuff stand out even with a sea of competitors.
The pitfall to watch for is being a one man opperation, it works fine to get things started but there's a critical mass point where things break down if your line starts getting popular. The difficulty comes in when the casting demands start overshadowing your sculpting and logistics abilities. You may find yourself spending so much time casting and shipping orders that there's no time left over to be doing new sculpts and making new products. I would highly suggest finding somebody in advance that you can partner with and train to do casting work at a good level of quality. When it comes to manpower its very easy to spread yourself too thin and when that happens your line freezes due to lacking new product and your sales will start to shrink as continually introducing new stuff is the lifeblood to stay afloat.
Another suggestion is don't plan on quitting your day job, sales are irregular there's times when they are really great and then there's some incredibly slow spots where you may only 10% of what you typically do in a normal month. It can be very problematic when it comes to paying rent or other bills. It takes a strong ability to budget properly and almost everyoen I've met who is running a small miniatures company is doing it part time while their main living is drawn from another job.
If you are already doing sculpting as your primary income for PP or whoever else then you also need to ask yorself if you are comfortable or able to put even more time into sculpting. If it takes you 4-5 months to put out a piece because you are too busy working for others then it likely won't bode well. Calculate a time table for what you want to release and how often you'll realistically be able to meet that. Then figure out how many of the differant items you'd need to sell to have a steady sales base and how long all that casting will take. Then I suggest doubling that time estimate in order to factor in time spent packaging, promoting your work online etc.
It's easy to say this part will only take me 30 minutes to cast and I'll make X, but there's almost an equal amount of time that goes into everything else surrounding that casting work.
I like your work and I think it'd be great to see more of your stuff, just consider the time costs and your level of personal motivation as those are the two most crucial factors in the sucess of the business. You either like casting or you don't and you can't make it work if it's not in the blood.
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Paulson Games parts are now at:
www.RedDogMinis.com |
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