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"unless stated otherwise a Psyker knows a number of psychic
powers equal to its Mastery Level." straight from BRB

so the FAQ states "A Blood Angels Librarian (including Mephiston) may use the
psychic disciplines found in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook,
instead of those in Codex:Blood Angels. If he does so, generate
two new powers from the Biomancy, Divination, Telepathy or
Telekinesis disciplines (in any combination) before armies are
deployed."

so you could argue because it says 2 in the FAQ but then again there is a full stop before stating the 'he', whomever he may be more then likely just a reference back to the original purpose of the section the standard librarian and not Mephiston. The only thing Mephiston is referenced to is the disciplines in which he has access to.

GW is terrible at writing out rules lets just understand that first.

So Mephiston is referenced in the sentence talking about having access to the BRB disciplines in brackets i may add and then not again when stating only 2 powers.
then again later in the FAQ it states he's a level 3 psyker, would that not over write any previous statements as the later over writes the earlier stated things?

I've also been told by people who have rang up Games workshop that they've been told he does get the three powers from the BRB.
i think the main problem is people are not really looking at the use of English in the section. (the brackets and the full stops to separate sentences)

am i the only one with this conclusion?

He is a general reference to BA libbys as they are only mastery level two maximum. As Mephy is mastery level three he would generate three powers as they always generate s number of powers equal to their mastery. level.

I don't quite follow, what is the original issue with Mephiston that you are trying to counter argue? Obviously something that has managed to slip me by.

I've had numerous people try to tell me and argue with me that mephiston only gets 2 powers based on what is said in the FAQ. their reasoning being that whole section applies to him not just that 1st sentence.

i just wanted to confirm my thoughts with other people about why the people who thought he only had 2 were wrong.

If "he" does not also refer to Mephiston, then Mephiston doesn't have permission to actually use any of the rulebook disciplines because he isn't told what disciplines he can access.

So Mephiston can either generate 2 powers from the listed disciplines just like a Librarian, or he can generate 3 powers from none of the disciplines.

 Son_of_Mephiston wrote:
I've had numerous people try to tell me and argue with me that mephiston only gets 2 powers based on what is said in the FAQ. their reasoning being that whole section applies to him not just that 1st sentence.

i just wanted to confirm my thoughts with other people about why the people who thought he only had 2 were wrong.

O yeah sorry, looking at the FAQ blind, didn't pick up on the word 'two'.

I can see both sides to this argument, I think until it gets another FAQ (if and when) it will just have to be one that people resolve locally. Is there any other cases of this in other armies?

 Bausk wrote:
He is a general reference to BA libbys as they are only mastery level two maximum. As Mephy is mastery level three he would generate three powers as they always generate s number of powers equal to their mastery. level.

That is not always the case for older books, there are numerous examples of psykers having a number of powers different from their level especially in tyranids.

Yup, as it currently stand, Mephiston only gets two powers, add that's what the BA FAQ says he gets.

 HoverBoy wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
He is a general reference to BA libbys as they are only mastery level two maximum. As Mephy is mastery level three he would generate three powers as they always generate s number of powers equal to their mastery. level.

That is not always the case for older books, there are numerous examples of psykers having a number of powers different from their level especially in tyranids.

It is always the case, unless otherwise specified. The faq establishes that any psyker genetate a number of powers equal to their mastery level. Though in the BA faq Mephiston is included in brakets. I agree that it's poor wording if you ignore the fact that all psykers always generate powets equal to their mastery level. If anything they should have left out the 'two' and left it stand on the brb faq listing for amount. But it doesn't take a genius to realise that that 'two' is a general reference to the standard psykers of the codex and not unique ones like mephiston.

In regards to psykers generating powers equal to their mastery level, the fact that a mastery level 1 BA libby gets two powers goes against this, so does meph only getting two powers as well

 insaniak wrote:
Yup, as it currently stand, Mephiston only gets two powers, add that's what the BA FAQ says he gets.

You've given no argument. This is just your interpretation of the FAQ section involving psykers and if anyone argue's thats what it says here is my counter arguement.

That's how you are interpreting what is written. what is stopping me from interpreting it my way other then the fact you will argue against it and if you have no evidence other then that's what it says then really that isn't an argument at all.

unless you work at games-workshop who are you to say your interpretation is right and mine is wrong?

 Son_of_Mephiston wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Yup, as it currently stand, Mephiston only gets two powers, add that's what the BA FAQ says he gets.

You've given no argument. This is just your interpretation of the FAQ section involving psykers and if anyone argue's thats what it says here is my counter arguement.

That's how you are interpreting what is written. what is stopping me from interpreting it my way other then the fact you will argue against it and if you have no evidence other then that's what it says then really that isn't an argument at all.

unless you work at games-workshop who are you to say your interpretation is right and mine is wrong?

It clearly says including Mephiston, IF he does so he generates two powers.....

That is RAW, you know it is otherwise you would not have posted here in the first place. By all means house rule this but dont expect it to pass in a tourny

The "he" in the second part is referencing the BA Librarian mentioned in the first part, just as you said yourself. Mephiston is included in the term "Librarian" as evidenced by the parenthesis saying so. He only gets 2 powers.

That FAQ is clear enough RAW. He gets two powers if he goes for BRB powers.

 Son_of_Mephiston wrote:

You've given no argument.

You already posted the relevant rule. The FAQ refers to Blood Angel Librarians, including Mephiston. So the rule applies to Blood Angel Librarians, including Mephiston.

unless you work at games-workshop who are you to say your interpretation is right and mine is wrong?

This isn't a contest. The 'right' interpretation is ultimately whichever one you and your opponent decide to use.

My opinion is just that. An opinion. And in my opinion, you're ignoring what the FAQ actually says in favour of what you want it to say.

Librarians (including Meph) have may trade in their powers. If he (including Mephiston) trades in codex powers he (including Mephiston) gets two rolls.

If you take the second "he" to not include Meph then you have no instruction on what tables to use.

It could be some sort of balance issue - Mephiston is not exactly your average model and the BRB powers are often a whole lot nastier than the ones in the BA codex.

I see both arguments, but there is no denying that it is a piss poorly written FAQ.

I lean towards RaI as opposed to RaW personally.

HIWPI = if trading in powers Meph gets 3 book powers.

And IMO RaI = mastery level 3 gets 3, Mastery Level 2 gets 2, and the mastery level 1 Librarians get 2 because of the FAQ and paying the same cost as other book mastery level 2 libbys. I honestly believe that is whats was intended by the badly written FAQ.

Now all that said in a tourny I would get a TO judgment before considering bringing Meph in a list where I would swap for book powers. Iron arm/warp speed Meph is a beast but there are only certain situations where you can do without the mobility of wings. (land raider, storm raven, or vs. an almost 100% assault army)

It's just as poor a FAQ as the Space Wolf FAQ where Njal can swap his full set of SW psychic powers for 2 rulebook ones. A Codex BA/SW psyker (including the special characters) can swap his Codex powers for BRB powers. If he does he can generate two powers from the rulebook. There's nothing saying the special character gets more.

Ofc, I can't see anyone swapping Njal's powers.

First0f0ne wrote:
I see both arguments, but there is no denying that it is a piss poorly written FAQ.

I lean towards RaI as opposed to RaW personally.

HIWPI = if trading in powers Meph gets 3 book powers.

And IMO RaI = mastery level 3 gets 3, Mastery Level 2 gets 2, and the mastery level 1 Librarians get 2 because of the FAQ and paying the same cost as other book mastery level 2 libbys. I honestly believe that is whats was intended by the badly written FAQ.

Now all that said in a tourny I would get a TO judgment before considering bringing Meph in a list where I would swap for book powers. Iron arm/warp speed Meph is a beast but there are only certain situations where you can do without the mobility of wings. (land raider, storm raven, or vs. an almost 100% assault army)

Do you then believe my Tervigons should be ML 3 since they get up to 3 powers?

That would rock.

Can the tervigons USE three powers a turn? If so then yes. If not then no.

Fragile wrote:

First0f0ne wrote:
I see both arguments, but there is no denying that it is a piss poorly written FAQ.

I lean towards RaI as opposed to RaW personally.

HIWPI = if trading in powers Meph gets 3 book powers.

And IMO RaI = mastery level 3 gets 3, Mastery Level 2 gets 2, and the mastery level 1 Librarians get 2 because of the FAQ and paying the same cost as other book mastery level 2 libbys. I honestly believe that is whats was intended by the badly written FAQ.

Now all that said in a tourny I would get a TO judgment before considering bringing Meph in a list where I would swap for book powers. Iron arm/warp speed Meph is a beast but there are only certain situations where you can do without the mobility of wings. (land raider, storm raven, or vs. an almost 100% assault army)

Do you then believe my Tervigons should be ML 3 since they get up to 3 powers?

That would rock.

No. Mastery Level implies number of powers available, not the other way around.

But the FAQ is pretty clear. Mephiston is included as a BA Librarian so if he rolls on the BRB tables he gets two rolls. It doesn't matter that he's ML3, the FAQ states he gets two.

The FAQ must refer to Mephiston taking two powers as well. Because if it doesn't, you can't generate any Rulebook powers *at all*.

Page 142 - Numbers of Psychic Powers
"A Psyker's codex will usually state how many psychic powers the Psyker has. Where this is not the case, the Psyker has a number of psychic powers equal to his Mastery level." (emphasis mine)
The BA Codex does state how many powers Mephiston has - indeed, it even tells us which ones - so so far, because of the wording "where this is not the case", there is no permission to take a number of powers according to the Mastery Level.

The FAQ then goes on to tell us Mephiston is Mastery Level 3. Again, no permission to generate powers from this number as the Codex still states the powers he has.

Finally we get to the bit about generating two Rulebook powers. If you don't include Mephiston in the use of the word "he" in that part, *you have no permission to take Rulebook powers for him at all* and must stick with the default three.
This cannot be the intention, however, because why else would that part of the FAQ mention him by name?

Ergo - "he" must refer to Mephiston as well, which makes sense given the context - he's Mastery Level 3, but gets 2 powers. It isn't horribly written, and it's clear when you look at it this way that the RAW of it follows the RAI.

First0f0ne wrote:
I see both arguments, but there is no denying that it is a piss poorly written FAQ.

I will deny that - how is it not clear?

I lean towards RaI as opposed to RaW personally.

HIWPI = if trading in powers Meph gets 3 book powers.

Do you have any evidence of intent, or do you just want it to be that way and therefore it must be intended that way?

And IMO RaI = mastery level 3 gets 3, Mastery Level 2 gets 2, and the mastery level 1 Librarians get 2 because of the FAQ and paying the same cost as other book mastery level 2 libbys. I honestly believe that is whats was intended by the badly written FAQ.

How is it badly written?

Now all that said in a tourny I would get a TO judgment before considering bringing Meph in a list where I would swap for book powers. Iron arm/warp speed Meph is a beast but there are only certain situations where you can do without the mobility of wings. (land raider, storm raven, or vs. an almost 100% assault army)

Yeah, thy couldn't possibly have only given him 2 powers as a balancing issue... IA/WS/Endurance wouldn't be insane at all.

The FAQ is quite clear. If I want to swap for rulebook powers with my Mephiston, he only gets two.

This is the case for several of the big powerful psykers from older codices. Njal and old-codex Eldrad also get/got fewer powers if you swap out their codex stuff for rulebook rolls.

S_O_M, you are assuming that GW actully writes the FAQs. They do not in fact and is often why FAQ ruling do not make complete sense when a Codex written for a previous edition sometimes is a bit wonky.

...wuh...? The FAQs are definitely GW releases. They may well be written by staff who aren't on the design team, and they can be a bit befuddling at times, but they are 100% official.

 Inquisitor Lord Cuthbert wrote:
you are assuming that GW actully writes the FAQs.

These are GW's official FAQs we're talking about. Not 3rd party tournament ones.

 Super Ready wrote:
...wuh...? The FAQs are definitely GW releases. They may well be written by staff who aren't on the design team, and they can be a bit befuddling at times, but they are 100% official.

They are made official by GW but are not authored by the company. Sorry but it is true and has been for a long time, ever heard of the direwolf council?

The FAQ is referring to blood angel librarian. The reference the Mephiston is permission to use brb powers or book powers. The second half refers to the ba librarian only...

Meph is ml3 and can cast 3 so gets 3 , book and or codex. To read it any other way is just pedantic, and serves no purpose to the game itself.

Plus Dakka is just opinions not facts. Neither is my statement it's just hiwpi. I don't plat ba but I would never rule my opponents mephy can't cast 3. Don't want to win that way.