Riptide Firing Ordnance - can it move?

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**Fragile**

Savageconvoy wrote:
That's not the way I'm reading it.
You're allowed to fire X weapons normally. Multi-tracker allows you to fire one more, regardless of what X is.
When firing Ordnance X=1, but Multi-tracker still has the effect you're allowed to fire one additional weapon.
So in this case two total.

One additional weapon each shooting phase does not override the cannot fire "other weapons"

Ordnance is more specific, as it mentions the ability to fire other weapons (which would include any additional weapons granted by the MT.)

**Elric Greywolf**

An MC has "normal shooting" of 2 weapons. The Multi Tracker lets a model fire one more than "normal."
Firing Ordnance is not "normal" since it has some very specific restrictions attached to it.
Thus, the Multi Tracker's "one more than normal" doesn't apply to the Riptide, since Riptide, by using ordnance, isn't firing normally.

**Steel-W0LF**

Multi Tracker lets you for one additional weapon system.

One in addition to what?

The BRB is what tells you how many to fire. In the case of Ordinance thats 1.

One in addition to one is 2.... Until a FAQ comes on that states otherwise.

**Happyjew**

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:
Steel, and others agreeing with Ordinance +1, read this. Then come back and apply what you learn from Yak's post to this discussion to see why your position on this issue is incorrect. Thank you.

Steel-WOLF, did you read the linked post? If so, you should understand why you do not have permission.

Oh, and it is Ordnance (no "i").

**Fragile**

Steel-W0LF wrote:
Multi Tracker lets you for one additional weapon system.

One in addition to what?

The BRB is what tells you how many to fire. In the case of Ordinance thats 1.

One in addition to one is 2.... Until a FAQ comes on that states otherwise.

And an MC can fire an additional weapon in the shooting phase, but that doesnt matter with Ordnance.

Ordnance does not say you can only fire 1 weapon per turn, it says you cannot fire any weapons after you fire Ordnance. A subtle but important difference.

**Savageconvoy**

The link actually makes me think more strongly in the case of Ordnance +1.

What gives permission to fire one extra? Multi-tracker.
Is there a restriction on the one extra weapon? None given.
Why should we assume there is a restriction? Because a general weapon type.
Which is more specific to the case in point, weapon type or codex wargear? Codex wargear.

**Steel-W0LF**

Fragile wrote:
Steel-W0LF wrote:
Multi Tracker lets you for one additional weapon system.

One in addition to what?

The BRB is what tells you how many to fire. In the case of Ordinance thats 1.

One in addition to one is 2.... Until a FAQ comes on that states otherwise.

And an MC can fire an additional weapon in the shooting phase, but that doesnt matter with Ordnance.

Ordnance does not say you can only fire 1 weapon per turn, it says you cannot fire any weapons after you fire Ordnance. A subtle but important difference.

Which is trumped by war gear in a codex.

I'll ask again. What is the point of a multi tracker on a riptide if I am wrong. If I am wrong what does it do?

**Happyjew**

Steel-W0LF wrote:
I'll ask again. What is the point of a multi tracker on a riptide if I am wrong. If I am wrong what does it do?

It does nothing. Just like giving the Avatar of Khaine (who has a 12" range weapon) the ability to take NIght Fighting.

**Steel-W0LF**

Happyjew wrote:
Steel-W0LF wrote:
I'll ask again. What is the point of a multi tracker on a riptide if I am wrong. If I am wrong what does it do?

It does nothing. Just like giving the Avatar of Khaine (who has a 12" range weapon) the ability to take NIght Fighting.

This is not a redundant piece of war gear that is optional.

It's given to the unit.

**Fragile**

Steel-W0LF wrote:
Fragile wrote:
Steel-W0LF wrote:
Multi Tracker lets you for one additional weapon system.

One in addition to what?

The BRB is what tells you how many to fire. In the case of Ordinance thats 1.

One in addition to one is 2.... Until a FAQ comes on that states otherwise.

And an MC can fire an additional weapon in the shooting phase, but that doesnt matter with Ordnance.

Ordnance does not say you can only fire 1 weapon per turn, it says you cannot fire any weapons after you fire Ordnance. A subtle but important difference.

Which is trumped by war gear in a codex.

I'll ask again. What is the point of a multi tracker on a riptide if I am wrong. If I am wrong what does it do?

It isnt trumped because it is not the same thing. The MT allows the Riptide to fire 3 weapons in the shooting phase. Ordnance says that if any weapon with Ordnance is fire, that model cannot fire any other weapon. Nothing removed the ability of the Riptide to fire 3 weapons, but by choosing to fire Ordnance, you limited yourself to 1 for that phase.

**Dracos**

I think the lack of quotes of the relevant rules is really hurting this debate. I was thinking the multitracker would work until I read the ordinance rules.

p.51 "[...] the model cannot fire other weapons that phase"

Ordinance does not change the number of weapons a models is permitted to fire. However, when firing an ordinance weapon [as a non-vehicle] you are restricted from firing any other weapon that turn.

This has no direct interaction with the general number of weapons per phase a model may fire.

A model with a multitracker can fire 2 weapons per turn. However, a model with a multitracker who is firing an ordinance weapon that turn may not fire any other weapon[s].

**Steel-W0LF**

Dracos wrote:
I think the lack of quotes of the relevant rules is really hurting this debate. I was thinking the multitracker would work until I read the ordinance rules.

p.51 "[...] the model cannot fire other weapons that phase"

Ordinance does not change the number of weapons a models is permitted to fire. However, when firing an ordinance weapon [as a non-vehicle] you are restricted from firing any other weapon that turn.

This has no direct interaction with the general number of weapons per phase a model may fire.

A model with a multitracker can fire 2 weapons per turn. However, a model with a multitracker who is firing an ordinance weapon that turn may not fire any other weapon[s].

Says the BRB. When the codex says it can fire one additional.

And to the poster above saying the riptide can fire 3 weapons: that true. But it only carries 2 weapon systems. So why give it a multi tracker if it does not modify the ordinance number.

**hyv3mynd**

Why doesn't matter. Why give the avatar night fighting? Why give jetbikes battle focus? The game is full of redundant rules.

Firing one additional weapon doesn't override the ban on firing at all. Just like PotMS doesn't override the ban on firing after using smoke launchers or going flat out.

**Steel-W0LF**

hyv3mynd wrote:
Why doesn't matter. Why give the avatar night fighting? Why give jetbikes battle focus? The game is full of redundant rules.

Firing one additional weapon doesn't override the ban on firing at all. Just like PotMS doesn't override the ban on firing after using smoke launchers or going flat out.

Well until a FAQ rules otherwise, you can't back that up in the rule book. You can play it like you want in your games though.

**Mr. Shine**

Lets have some rules quotes.

BRB, pg. 51 wrote:Furthermore, if a non-vehicle model fires an Ordnance weapon, then the massive recoil from the Ordnance weapon means the model cannot fire other weapons that phase.

Codex: Tau, pg. 69 wrote:A model with a multi-tracker can fire an additional weapon in each Shooting phase.

BRB, pg. 7 wrote:On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. When this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence.

The ordnance rule of "cannot fire other" reduces the weapons a model may fire to only the ordnance weapon, however this conflicts with a Multi-tracker's ability to allow an additional weapon to be fired, thus Codex: Tau takes precedence as per the rulebook.

This does make me lean towards ordnance plus one weapon.

**Happyjew**

If the Multi-tracker said

A model with a multi-tracker can fire an additional weapon in each Shooting phase, even if it fired an Ordnance weapon

then there would be a conflict in which the codex wins.
However,

yakface wrote:
3) Specific overrides general, although remembering that restrictions still override permissions.

Its very simple, when two rules contradict each other, the one that is more specific must take precedence. When GW talks about advanced rules taking precedence over basic rules, this simply means something like: the basic rules for movement say that models move 6" in the movement phase. But then in the advanced rules they'll say stuff like: 'models using a jump pack in the movement phase move 12 inches'.

If the advanced rules didn't take precedence over the basic rules, then all models would move 6 inches in the movement phase, as advanced rules would be unable to override this basic tenant no matter what. In other words, 'advanced' really just means 'specific', while 'basic' really just means 'general'.

However, this does not mean that advanced rules always override basic rules, as restrictions still take precedence over permissions. For example, an advanced rule may say: 'models with jump packs are able to move 12" in the movement phase', but if a model has gone to ground, then the basic rules restriction against a model being able to move in the movement phase still overrides the advanced rules permission that the model can move 12" in the movement phase.

It is also even possible for a 'basic' rule to be specific enough to override an 'advanced' rule. For example, an advanced rule may say that jump pack models can move 12" in the movement phase, but if there happened to be a 'basic' rule which actually spelled out that jump pack models can only move 6" when moving into difficult terrain (just an imaginary example here), then that 'basic' rule would still take precedence over the 'advanced' rule because it was specific enough to actually mention that it applies to jump pack models.

Finally, when GW says that codexes take precedence over the rulebook, again this is a case of generally speaking, the codexes being more 'advanced' than the advanced rules in the rulebook. Meaning, if the advanced rules in the rulebook say that Jump Pack models move 12" in the movement phase but a codex says that a special unit moves like a Jump Pack model, but up to 18", then clearly the codex rule has to take precedence over the rulebook for the whole thing to work.

But just as before, restrictions still override permissions (even if the restriction is in the rulebook and the permission is in a codex) and it is possible for rules in the rulebook to be more specific than even a codex and therefore take precedence over the codex rules.

So please, please, please do not parrot the terms: 'codex > rulebook' and 'advanced > basic' without understanding that these concepts are not absolute. They ONLY apply when the rules between two sources actually contradict, not when one is a permission and the other is a restriction.

**Steel-W0LF**

Happyjew wrote:
If the Multi-tracker said

A model with a multi-tracker can fire an additional weapon in each Shooting phase, even if it fired an Ordnance weapon

then there would be a conflict in which the codex wins.
However,

yakface wrote:
3) Specific overrides general, although remembering that restrictions still override permissions.

Its very simple, when two rules contradict each other, the one that is more specific must take precedence. When GW talks about advanced rules taking precedence over basic rules, this simply means something like: the basic rules for movement say that models move 6" in the movement phase. But then in the advanced rules they'll say stuff like: 'models using a jump pack in the movement phase move 12 inches'.

If the advanced rules didn't take precedence over the basic rules, then all models would move 6 inches in the movement phase, as advanced rules would be unable to override this basic tenant no matter what. In other words, 'advanced' really just means 'specific', while 'basic' really just means 'general'.

However, this does not mean that advanced rules always override basic rules, as restrictions still take precedence over permissions. For example, an advanced rule may say: 'models with jump packs are able to move 12" in the movement phase', but if a model has gone to ground, then the basic rules restriction against a model being able to move in the movement phase still overrides the advanced rules permission that the model can move 12" in the movement phase.

It is also even possible for a 'basic' rule to be specific enough to override an 'advanced' rule. For example, an advanced rule may say that jump pack models can move 12" in the movement phase, but if there happened to be a 'basic' rule which actually spelled out that jump pack models can only move 6" when moving into difficult terrain (just an imaginary example here), then that 'basic' rule would still take precedence over the 'advanced' rule because it was specific enough to actually mention that it applies to jump pack models.

Finally, when GW says that codexes take precedence over the rulebook, again this is a case of generally speaking, the codexes being more 'advanced' than the advanced rules in the rulebook. Meaning, if the advanced rules in the rulebook say that Jump Pack models move 12" in the movement phase but a codex says that a special unit moves like a Jump Pack model, but up to 18", then clearly the codex rule has to take precedence over the rulebook for the whole thing to work.

But just as before, restrictions still override permissions (even if the restriction is in the rulebook and the permission is in a codex) and it is possible for rules in the rulebook to be more specific than even a codex and therefore take precedence over the codex rules.

So please, please, please do not parrot the terms: 'codex > rulebook' and 'advanced > basic' without understanding that these concepts are not absolute. They ONLY apply when the rules between two sources actually contradict, not when one is a permission and the other is a restriction.

And that quote is from a games workshop official capable of making that ruling?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:
If the Multi-tracker said

A model with a multi-tracker can fire an additional weapon in each Shooting phase, even if it fired an Ordnance weapon

then there would be a conflict in which the codex wins.

The codex also does not "specifically" say you can fire if you move exactly 1".

That does not mean if you move exactly 1" you cannot fire.

You are inventing restrictions on a modifier that has none.

**Happyjew**

It is (part of) an explanation of "Specific>General" or "Codex>Rulebook".

You are claiming that there is a conflict and so codex>rulebook, but you don't seem to understand that it only applies when there is an actual conflict.

**Steel-W0LF**

Happyjew wrote:
It is (part of) an explanation of "Specific>General" or "Codex>Rulebook".

You are claiming that there is a conflict and so codex>rulebook, but you don't seem to understand that it only applies when there is an actual conflict.

And that does not change that it is the opinion of a regular joe like you and me, and carries the same weight.

**Happyjew**

Steel-W0LF wrote:
The codex also does not "specifically" say you can fire if you move exactly 1".

That does not mean if you move exactly 1" you can fire.

The codex does not need to specifically say you can fire if you move exactly 1". I have permission to move. Barring certain situations (which explicitly say you cannot fire if you moved) I have permission to shoot. Therefore if I move 1" I have permission to shoot, as there is no restriction. if there was a restriction (i.e. firing an Ordnance weapon), I would need specific permission to override that rule (such as Relentless).

**Nilok**

I don't understand why you would want to both fire it in Ordnance mode and fire the sub weapons.

The S8 overcharged Ion Cannon dose the job just as well unless it is a Monstrous Creatures, in which case, Ripple Fire will put more shots down range to kill it.

If it is a tank and you have Fusion Blasters, again Ripple Fire will allow you to fire 3 S8 shots (two with Armourbane) instead of one S9 shot (or a S9 and a S8 with Armourbase on your argument).

Really, I don't think you could fire the Ordnance and another gun, since it prevents you from firing any other gun. In the end, I don't think it hurts the Riptide. You shouldn't rely on the Nova Charge for the Ion unless you are using it as long range fire support popping tanking.

**Mr. Shine**

Happyjew wrote:
If the Multi-tracker said

A model with a multi-tracker can fire an additional weapon in each Shooting phase, even if it fired an Ordnance weapon

then there would be a conflict in which the codex wins.

So you are saying that the Multi-tracker allowing an additional weapon to be fired (without restriction) versus ordnance saying no other weapon (which includes additional weapons) may be fired is not a conflict?

**Steel-W0LF**

Happyjew wrote:
Steel-W0LF wrote:
The codex also does not "specifically" say you can fire if you move exactly 1".

That does not mean if you move exactly 1" you can fire.

The codex does not need to specifically say you can fire if you move exactly 1". I have permission to move. Barring certain situations (which explicitly say you cannot fire if you moved) I have permission to shoot. Therefore if I move 1" I have permission to shoot, as there is no restriction. if there was a restriction (i.e. firing an Ordnance weapon), I would need specific permission to override that rule (such as Relentless).

And I have permission to fire ordinances per the BRB.

And per the codex I have permission to fire 1 additional.

You can't win this because the rules you are wanting to be there are not.

**Happyjew**

The rules are permissive. This is the only way to play a game. In order for somebody to do something they must have permission. On occasion, a model is restricted from doing something it normally has permission to do. In order to override a restriction, you must have specific permission to override the restriction. Examples include:
Skyfire vs Hard to Hit
Pinpoint vs Snap Shots
Assault Vehicle vs charging after disembarking
ATSKNF vs Sweeping Advance
Relentless vs moving and charging in the same turn as firing ordnance weapons.

In every situation, the permission to override the restriction is specifically mentioned. Where is the specific permission to override the 1 weapon restriction from ordnance weapons?

**Steel-W0LF**

Happyjew wrote:
The rules are permissive. This is the only way to play a game. In order for somebody to do something they must have permission. On occasion, a model is restricted from doing something it normally has permission to do. In order to override a restriction, you must have specific permission to override the restriction. Examples include:
Skyfire vs Hard to Hit
Pinpoint vs Snap Shots
Assault Vehicle vs charging after disembarking
ATSKNF vs Sweeping Advance
Relentless vs moving and charging in the same turn as firing ordnance weapons.

In every situation, the permission to override the restriction is specifically mentioned. Where is the specific permission to override the 1 weapon restriction from ordnance weapons?

Soooo: "May fire one additional weapon..." actually is NOT permission to fire one additional weapon now? Is that the current argument?

**Mr. Shine**

Happyjew wrote:
In every situation, the permission to override the restriction is specifically mentioned. Where is the specific permission to override the 1 weapon restriction from ordnance weapons?

Would you like to answer my question as to rules conflict?

I understand your point, but the fact remains however that with a Multi-tracker allowing a model to fire an additional weapon and ordnance stating that no other weapon may be fired (thus no additional weapon) there is a conflict. If we go the way you are interpreting it that conflict remains and we ignore pg. 7 of the BRB, yet if we go with allowing an additional weapon to be fired there is no conflict.

**Tarrasq**

Using the same Ordnance + 1 argument, I could assert that you can not only fire one weapon if you run but you can shoot one weapon in the opponent's shooting phase. The rule does say "each shooting phase" and 0 + 1 = 1 after all.

Of course the above is absurd, but that's what the "defies all restrictions" interpretation leads to.

**S.K.Ren**

Steel-W0LF wrote:

Soooo: "May fire one additional weapon..." actually is NOT permission to fire one additional weapon now? Is that the current argument?

It has nothing to do with "How many weapons can I fire in addition to an Ordnance weapon?". Its a matter of "Can I fire any weapons at all in addition to an Ordnance Weapon?"

If this were a line of code an X was the variable for the number of shots you would get, X wouldn't be '0', it would be 'nil'

**Mr. Shine**

Tarrasq wrote:
Using the same Ordnance + 1 argument, I could assert that you can not only fire one weapon if you run but you can shoot one weapon in the opponent's shooting phase. The rule does say "each shooting phase" and 0 + 1 = 1 after all.

Of course the above is absurd, but that's what the "defies all restrictions" interpretation leads to.

Except that by running or it being the enemy player's shooting phase you do not make any shooting attacks at all. Something cannot be in addition to nothing.

S.K.Ren wrote:
It has nothing to do with "How many weapons can I fire in addition to an Ordnance weapon?". Its a matter of "Can I fire any weapons at all in addition to an Ordnance Weapon?"

Except the rules for Multi-tracker state without restriction that an additional weapon may be fired, thus creating a conflict, and as per pg. 7 of the BRB, Codex > BRB.

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

Steel-W0LF wrote:
Happyjew wrote:
The rules are permissive. This is the only way to play a game. In order for somebody to do something they must have permission. On occasion, a model is restricted from doing something it normally has permission to do. In order to override a restriction, you must have specific permission to override the restriction. Examples include:
Skyfire vs Hard to Hit
Pinpoint vs Snap Shots
Assault Vehicle vs charging after disembarking
ATSKNF vs Sweeping Advance
Relentless vs moving and charging in the same turn as firing ordnance weapons.

In every situation, the permission to override the restriction is specifically mentioned. Where is the specific permission to override the 1 weapon restriction from ordnance weapons?

Soooo: "May fire one additional weapon..." actually is NOT permission to fire one additional weapon now? Is that the current argument?

Hey why didn't anyone tell me it was TROLLOLL season...