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So Tau removed "mindlessly run forward, declare charges, and win the game" as a viable 'strategy'. How exactly is this a bad thing?

I can give a specific example of why Tau can be frustrating to play.

I play Dark Eldar with a Webway Portal theme. I use Harlequins to escort the haemonculi carrying them to where they will deploy them. The reason this unit is effective is due to its amazing cover save. There are some armies that can hurt it (I'm not a fan of playing against whirlwinds, lol) but nothing like Tau that flat out remove their cover save. I won't play that army against my Tau friend because it will simply be over turn one if I don't go first. Even with first turn it will be an incredible uphill battle.

I have no issue with the nerfs to assault in 6th. We have house ruled that assaults from reserve are legal, but I would still play this style without that (and most definitely lose more, but it would be a fun list).

It is frustrating to have the cool trick up my sleeve just gone. I'm an Eldar and Dark Eldar player, that's how I get my kicks. I pull shenanigans.

What I would like to discuss, how can it be fixed? Tau should be a dynamic shooting army (I think) but not auto win. Is there a simple house rule that preserves their style, but makes them more of a skillful army? Eldar can be very shooty, or very assaulty, but you must play them smartly to do well. I think easy to start, difficult to master is how it should be, rather than any entry level player stomping.

 Peregrine wrote:
So Tau removed "mindlessly run forward, declare charges, and win the game" as a viable 'strategy'. How exactly is this a bad thing?

Because according to the OP (and I don't agree with him mind you) Tau have replaced that with "pick a target, light its ass up with markerlights, shoot it to hell, win" as a viable strategy.

Ghawhaar wrote:

It is frustrating to have the cool trick up my sleeve just gone. I'm an Eldar and Dark Eldar player.

Tau's just a bad match up for Eldar and Dark Eldar, sadly. Most armies shouldn't have as much trouble.

There are some bad matchups, but those seem more the fault of terrible game design (6th ed power creep, introducing rules which negate BRB rules, only to have codizes which rely on those introduce their own variants which aren't affected and so on).

Are Tau frustrating to play against? OH feth YES! As a army which puts out a lot of pain at long ranges, I constantly find myself cursing for the first one or two rounds, but after that things tend to even out.

Are there some dubious choices? Probably. I know at least a few rules which I'd have made differently (e.g. reducing cover vs ignoring cover) but none are that bad that I wouldn't play against them with most armies (GK without plasma-syphon might be the exception xD).

I love the new Tau codex. For the first time, we have a codex where you can point to almost anything and it's still good. In fact, it's what every codex SHOULD be like - with the slight misstep of some HQs and Vespids, you can build a list around almost any unit and it'll work. Are they boring to play against? Meh, I don't really think so. Immobile gun lines aren't the most fun but I still enjoy seeing them and playing around them because it's at least a fairly unique play style rarely seen outside of apocalypse IG. Notably, Tau have put a big dent in lists like Wraithwing and 2 IG blobs - they still work, but that's a very tough match up. Dark Eldar I don't feel stack up well enough in 6e. They're perfectly fine in most games, but in tournament play the low AV and squishy troops really hurt. Not to mention with the introduction of invisibility, 2++'s became not only possible but not even uncommon - Tau stop this. On top of all this, they also neuter flyer spam as Necron flyer spam VS Riptide/Broadside spam is a total joke match up. Really, they are just all around strong and kill a lot of annoying lists. In what way is this bad? Because they introduce a firing line list? Meh, I'd rather that than the alternatives.

So Tau removed "mindlessly run forward, declare charges, and win the game" as a viable 'strategy'. How exactly is this a bad thing?

I couldn't agree more.

Ghawhaar wrote:
I play Dark Eldar with a Webway Portal theme. I use Harlequins to escort the haemonculi carrying them to where they will deploy them. The reason this unit is effective is due to its amazing cover save. There are some armies that can hurt it (I'm not a fan of playing against whirlwinds, lol) but nothing like Tau that flat out remove their cover save. I won't play that army against my Tau friend because it will simply be over turn one if I don't go first. Even with first turn it will be an incredible uphill battle.

So do you refuse to play against IG as well? Because the Colossus and Hellhound were shutting down that plan long before the Tau arrived.

Also, "my army doesn't work as well and now I have to change my strategy" is part of the game. Change happens, you have to adapt to it instead of demanding that everyone else have their army house-ruled away so you can keep using the same list forever.

Is there a simple house rule that preserves their style, but makes them more of a skillful army?

No, because they don't need to be fixed, especially since I have yet to see an explanation of what a "skillful" army is.

I don't mind them with my crons. They gave me a reason to pop a monolith down again after all! Railgun hammerheads are the only consistent way they can deal with one, and I don't see them being taken often.

Misslesides are the one thing I hate most in their dex. S7, tons of shots, and lots of ways for them to hit on 2s is silly. I'd be cool with them if they didn't also have range to hit most of the board. They are effective vs just about everything that isn't AV14, and they don't cost that much. They mulch hordes and meqs alike with the pure number of hits, which is almost the exact same as the number of wounds since it wounds everything but MCs and nurgle bikers on 2s. They are even strong vs fliers without having to buy skyfire, just because how many shots they throw at them. They just do too much for what they cost, and their only weakness (melee) is viewed as weak this edition, so many armies only take 1-2 units of strong melee, which can just be picked off.

I have had tao players say they wish they were playing another army in our league, because they are boring. They mostly run gunline lists with at least 1 (sometimes 2) riptides. I have only lost to one of these guys, and that was right after the dex came out, so I didn't know about misslesides yet. They are far from unbeatable, but I agree the games get boring fairly quick.

Clarence wrote:

 gossipmeng wrote:
Meh, people have no problems against my Tau. I also don't see Tau winning tournaments... necrons are still on top.

I really think people are just taking an opportunity to place some of the blame off their own codices OP units and place it on the new FotM.

Tau won Astronomicon Toronto (crushed everyone in Battle Scores and placed Overall.)

For Conquest Toronto Tau placed first Overall and were 3 of the top 5 armies for the weekend.

They also finished first in the Singles event, and were also 3 of the 5 top armies in Singles (and one of the two remaining armies had heavy Tau allies.)

This,

In a game were it costs well over a thousand dollars in money alone not counting painting/hobby time to field a tournament size army with options its going to take many months more for the "flavor of the month: to finally take hold..but yes we are seeing it alreadyt.I know of at least two groups in my local area were at least half the players have switched to Tau in preparation for upcoming fall GT`s and Tourneys....By design GW is making a killing off this one dex update alone..

 Peregrine wrote:
No, because they don't need to be fixed, especially since I have yet to see an explanation of what a "skillful" army is.

You're not going to get a perfect description. But something that just sits back and shoots the bejesus out of the enemy certainly doesn't fit it. I guess there's a bit of tactics in terms of what to markerlight and when, and perhaps seeing if there's anything in the enemy army you need to obliterate first.

Something like Eldar is a lot more "skilful". Movement and placement are far more crucial as well as having each unit having a very specific job which it really has to succeed in. If you fail in too many of those jobs, you'll lose. Similarly, you also have to adapt a lot more. Taking Fire Dragons is great if your opponent takes Land Raiders/Monoliths etc, but trying to find use for those Fire Dragons against an Ork Horde is trickier.

I'm not saying Eldar, or any other army, is "skilful", it's just that Tau are one of the easier armies in 40k to use.

To OP like others have said the tau are a balanced codex and to me beating the tau is all about destroying their synergy once that is gone its down hill for the tau after that. My brother plays heavy MC tyranids list with the Doom of M(whatever you call it, I hate that thing it hurts so much, but it always fun to have to figure out how to beat something like that) that list is hard to go to up against and my tau army lists are mech heavy with volume of fire in mind (I also don't just sit there, no fun if I do, also not smart thing to sit there against that list). He destroyed my synergy at turn two and I couldn't do enough damage to hope to make a come back so it was down hill bad after that.

Tau aren't unbeatable by any stretch, but anyone who denies that they are a bit too powerful is kidding themselves. As the OP mentioned, Tau are a bit OTT because of their ability to easily circumvent some of the game's important rules, such as not being able to move and shoot accurately with heavy weapons, flyers being extremely difficult to destroy, etc.

That being said, the game is what it is. Rather than sit here and complain about the state of the codex, you ought to spend more time figuring out how to counter it. If you know that many players in your region are switching to Tau, then you are not tailoring by focusing on that match-up. I build my lists in accordance to what I expect to be facing in general (currently that is Tau, Eldar, Daemons and Necrons). Complaining literally does nothing. GW will not nerfbat Tau for you, TOs will not ban the codex or units.

Every codex in the game has options that can help you deal with Tau. You'll need to build a well-rounded list that can deal with high AV/MC's and Xenos infantry. This can be done by every army in the game (obviously to varying degrees of success). You may have to outplay your opponents due to them fielding more inherently powerful unit options, but so be it. I find challenging armies and lists to be an opportunity to test myself and improve my skill at the game. You should do the same, it's far more constructive than ranting on the internet.

 Peregrine wrote:
So Tau removed "mindlessly run forward, declare charges, and win the game" as a viable 'strategy'. How exactly is this a bad thing?

For once i agree with Peregrine without raising an eyebrow or something at part of his post.

Tau are just FOTM right now and as peregine said counter the blindly charge tactic most players use. Know what? My tau still cant beat my BA friend despite being "all powerful" because this guy knows wtf he is doing (never beaten him unless he was completely screwing around). And my other friends are 50-50 with me.
The fact that theres suddenly a bunch of BRB rules being questioned because they affect tau the most (but the problem existed beforehand, yet never discussed) and tau being the FOTM proves its just people not used to dealing with them.

Tau don' seem so op to me, a C:SM player, having been one first blooded predator tank short of beating a decent Tau list.

I knew what i was doing, and crafted a 1500 point TAC list that could maybe hold to Tau, thankfully it did. I played a BGNT game against one of them, and was 1 VP short of victory. He ran an ion riptide, longstrike railhead, 2 FW squads, 3 stealth suits, 1 pathfinder squad, piranha, 2 broadsides, and an etheral & suit commander. I was able keep his fire warriors off my tac marines and harrased his riptide to keep them off my troops, and melta sternguard smashed his longstrike. The only things I was disappointed in were my lascannon ST that died to fire warrior snap shots and my tri las pred that was popped by an infiltrated stealth suit melta (just in range too).

Im proud that i kept that game close, because i dictated the battle, even though i went second. He wasn't going and wiping my stuff off the board in droves like i thought he would if given free reign to move his stuff up. All that to say, Tau isn't the end all be all, I kept the Tau reacting to my efforts instead of me reacting to the tau.

The tau dex is certainly pretty good, but it isn't double or triple heldrake op (I've experienced it first hand).

I play tau. I don't see what the fuss is all about. I've been virtually tabled in turn 1 by eldar, dark Eldar, daemons, chaos. It happens.
So I'm sorry gun lines are boring are they?
Two words 'imperial guard' no-one's complains about spamming av14 vehicles with s8 ap3 blasts (or one of the other varieties).
Tau can move and do, usually away from you.
I'm sorry is it a problem I don't constantly advance with the hope of melee? (Although I do just that against some armies).
Yes the ignore cover is bad but really? 2 or 3 of your units might be affected we can only have so many markers.
Plus it not hard to go, I'm taking down that riptide (180-210 point) and concentrate fire.
Another thing that hurts us, lots of small units like combat squads.
We can't target everything. Yes they will die but everything dies.
I think players have become a little 'max out a squad to deal as much damage as possible.'
Doing small amounts of damage to lots of squads will cause morale tests. Tau have Ld of 7-9 it's not beyond reason to believe they might run off the table especially with a gun line being so close to the edge.
Also, Yes my army might be optimised (to me) but that's because i go out thinking I'm going to fight a war. Of course I want to win its only normal. That doesnt make me an arse or something. I still act in a polite and equitable way.
No one goes out with a list thinking you know what I'm gonna lose so hard tonight. I think I might throw a few games for a while because I might upset someone.
Honestly I don't want to trounce someone but the game is competitive in nature (like chess or backgammon or any game).

This is how we (tau) fight.
You tyranids like to charge into HTH
You imp guard like tanks
You space marines are largely durable and can do everything.

You space marines are largely durable and can do everything.

And this is why Tau are the FOTM, they counter MEQ with little effort due to plasma spam and riptides. We have less shots than other shooty armies, without marker support our BS is weaker, but the guns we got are almost all AP2/3 with a couple exceptions so we pen armor like nobodies business

There is a difference between Tau and other armies that can ignore cover.

Tau do so by using one unit to allow every other unit to shoot and ignore the save.

Other armies have a blast or large blast that ignores cover. it still sucks, and has the chance to wipe my unit, but is not as close to a guarantee.

I do play a specific style of army, and I have changed my playstyle. I have added units that I had not used previously that have done awesomely.

It is very easy to say just pick apart the Tau synergy, but I do not play armies that can ignore cover (unless I have overlooked something?). His marker lights can go to ground and will most likely survive.

I do play an assault army which is not terribly strong in this edition. I don't mind fighting an uphill battle; that is in part why I play it. What I don't like is a hard counter. Would you expect a 5th edition Daemon player to enjoy fighting Grey Knights? That is how I feel when I play Tau with Dark Eldar, Eldar, or Grey Knights. I am a "beer and pretzels" player. It may certainly be possible to do something, but for me it is all about the experience.

 Vineheart01 wrote:

You space marines are largely durable and can do everything.

And this is why Tau are the FOTM, they counter MEQ with little effort due to plasma spam and riptides. We have less shots than other shooty armies, without marker support our BS is weaker, but the guns we got are almost all AP2/3 with a couple exceptions so we pen armor like nobodies business

No army is shootier than Tau currently. I don't have the time or the willpower to do this, but I would wager that if you did the math for all units currently in the game that a Broadside with SMS and HYMP is the most efficient all-purpose shooting unit in the entire game. If a Tau player takes 9 Broadsides with some Drones (or 12 due to the ability to ally with Tau) their army will put out more shots than any other in the game.

Tau, IMO, are a rate-of-fire army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ghawhaar wrote:
There is a difference between Tau and other armies that can ignore cover.

Tau do so by using one unit to allow every other unit to shoot and ignore the save.

Other armies have a blast or large blast that ignores cover. it still sucks, and has the chance to wipe my unit, but is not as close to a guarantee.

I do play a specific style of army, and I have changed my playstyle. I have added units that I had not used previously that have done awesomely.

It is very easy to say just pick apart the Tau synergy, but I do not play armies that can ignore cover (unless I have overlooked something?). His marker lights can go to ground and will most likely survive.

I do play an assault army which is not terribly strong in this edition. I don't mind fighting an uphill battle; that is in part why I play it. What I don't like is a hard counter. Would you expect a 5th edition Daemon player to enjoy fighting Grey Knights? That is how I feel when I play Tau with Dark Eldar, Eldar, or Grey Knights. I am a "beer and pretzels" player. It may certainly be possible to do something, but for me it is all about the experience.

You should be playing against players of a skill level that is similar to your own or against players who want the same thing out of the game as you (beer and fun). TAC, fluffy/fun DE, Eldar and GK can all beat TAC, fluffy/fun Tau. Tau don't have a single unit that breaks the game, they have no Heldrake equivalent, for Tau it is about synergy between units, that synergy is less likely to be abused by a player who has the same mindset as you and will result in a much more enjoyable game.

Wait! Does this mean I am "officially sanction by the power of this thread in dakka" to scream "WAAAAAAAAAAC" whenever I play him?

(we trash talk quite a bit, all in good fun, and that would easily make my day)

Lol please don't tell me that everyone is getting all pissy about their precious marine dying a bit.

4 tactical squads in combat squads = 8 targets
This is 800 points ish.
You are moving 6" shooting 5 - 10 shots. Hitting on 3s wounding on 3s with a 3+ save.

I could take tau with Dark Angels (apparently the worst codex)
Yes some armies have issues due to age (give them a chance we've had 5 codices in only a short while)

To all dark angels this against Tau
Libby w PFG 95
Libby w PFG 95
Command squad in DP 5x flamer 160
Command squad in DP 5x flamer 160

Tactical squad (10) with melta and missile 180 ish x 4

Devastator (10) 4x lascannon 220
Devastator (10) 4x lascannon 220

And fill it out have an empty pod somewhere.

I can do other lists too if you want.

Tau are good because of the high quantity of shooting they can put out, and that they have effective counters to everything that is good against most shooty armies. Have flyers? Easy skyfire and Interceptor kill flyers. DS in? Interceptor all over. Cover saves? Eat markerlights! Stay back? Eat 60" templates!

Every effective counter to most gunlines is less effective against Tau gunlines. Its not too hard to counter Tau, but doing so leaves you too vulnerable to other armies.

Tau aren't broken however. They're as prone to bad luck as all armies, and can be countered by quite a few current good lists, like Daemons and some Crons.

Do you understand why we are not accepting that argument?

Bad luck, or play Daemons or Crons.

He said "quite a few" and listed a few examples. He didn't need to list all the examples and he shouldn't be expected to. Tau are good, probably the best overall codex in the game, that still doesn't make them impossible to beat. Every army in the game can beat Tau, even without extreme luck. You just have to know how the army functions and the best way to deal with that. Maybe you'll even have to outplay the opponent! How unheard of!

The point that we are attempting to make is that our armies (Black Templar, Dark Angels, Necron, Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Grey Knights) have had no success against Tau when both sides bring casual lists. These games have not been enjoyable. We hypothesize this is due to Tau fundamentally countering units, special rules, and entire play styles.

While we have certainly complained, I definitely like to hear how to remedy this situation. Saying to "outplay", reference luck, or suggest an army I do not own is not constructive.

Telling me to break their synergy doesn't help. That is quite evidently the way to beat any army. How exactly do you do it? I have been told to kill the marker lights, thereby significantly weakening the rest of the army. I have had great difficulty killing those units in the games I have played. I tend to not be able to ignore cover saves. Is there a better way to deal with them? It seems that I may be better off just ignoring them and trying to kill the rest of his stuff as quick as I can.

I ask this honestly, because such knowledge could quite possibly make fighting Tau an enjoyable couple hours.

 LValx wrote:
He said "quite a few" and listed a few examples. He didn't need to list all the examples and he shouldn't be expected to. Tau are good, probably the best overall codex in the game, that still doesn't make them impossible to beat. Every army in the game can beat Tau, even without extreme luck. You just have to know how the army functions and the best way to deal with that. Maybe you'll even have to outplay the opponent! How unheard of!

Tau aren't unbeatable. I tabled a TauDar player earlier today with Tyranids, its not impossible. Any build can beat any other, some just do better against Tau than others. There are very few "Hard counters" anymore, I can take any army and go toe to toe with them. I've done well vs Tau by simple priorities. 1. Kill his Markerlights. 2. Kill his Troops. 3. Kill everything else.

Edit: Ghawaar, I can't really give advice on non Tyranid armies because I'm not very experienced, but having a balance of shooty units to take out his key elements helps a lot. Tau are the best current army in my mind, but if this is a friendly match and he's routinely beating you, either bring something a bit less friendly (to ensure a balanced game) or maybe point out to him that he's cheesing up a casual environment.

So many of you replying are simply missing the point.

Let me reiterate once again. I did not say Tau is unbeatable. My primary point is that, for me as a casual player who likes to bring balanced all-comers armies, or just models I own- Tau is NOT fun to play against, and is extremely good at dealing with lists not prepared SPECIFICALLY to take advantage of Taus very few weaknesses.

I do NOT have access to limitless models to just swap in whenever I want, nor would I want to. That is NOT the point. I do NOT want to create a list SPECIFICALLY to beat Tau- I have never seen an army until this codex that I have not been able to at least do decently well against with general all-comers lists.

So again, they are not unbeatable. That does not change the fact they are a mindless army that outright ignore a greater portion of the rulebook in favor of power gamers who just want to play yahtzee with themselves while their opponent pulls models off the board.

 jifel wrote:
but if this is a friendly match and he's routinely beating you, either bring something a bit less friendly (to ensure a balanced game) or maybe point out to him that he's cheesing up a casual environment.

The latter option is better here. Cheese leads to cheese.

Boniface wrote:
Lol please don't tell me that everyone is getting all pissy about their precious marine dying a bit.

4 tactical squads in combat squads = 8 targets
This is 800 points ish.
You are moving 6" shooting 5 - 10 shots. Hitting on 3s wounding on 3s with a 3+ save.

I could take tau with Dark Angels (apparently the worst codex)
Yes some armies have issues due to age (give them a chance we've had 5 codices in only a short while)

To all dark angels this against Tau
Libby w PFG 95
Libby w PFG 95
Command squad in DP 5x flamer 160
Command squad in DP 5x flamer 160

Tactical squad (10) with melta and missile 180 ish x 4

Devastator (10) 4x lascannon 220
Devastator (10) 4x lascannon 220

And fill it out have an empty pod somewhere.

I can do other lists too if you want.

1 troop choice, 2 Heavies, 2 HQs... If you do decide to post other lists, I suggest you make them legal ones as either primary detachments or allies. The one you posted doesn't meet either compulsory criteria.

Ok, I will admit I started really playing this year. I have yet to play a Tau army. So take my thoughts and such with that in mind.

Couldnt an army hit Tau units with Pinning weapons and prevent that ENTIRE unit from Shooting? Granted that is only 1 unit. I play SM, I have taken a unit of Scouts with sniper rifles just for this. I added Telion so I can almost garuntee some sort of hit. Granted, it might not be much. Oh well. It will prevent something from hitting me. Target a ML unit maybe? Make them eat dirt, they cant ML right?

The overwatch thing is Tau right? The help your buddy unit out? Pinning again ftw.Yeah, you actually have to get one off, but umm....the Tau cant shoot you unless they roll decent too right?? Nature of the game.

Do I think Tau are powerful? Yeah, I have watched too many battle reports, seen too many threads of people complaining about them being OP not to. Does this equate to me not wanting to play them? Nope. I wanna try my luck. I lose all the time anyway, so why not go for a full house?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

4 tactical squads in combat squads = 8 targets
This is 800 points ish.
You are moving 6" shooting 5 - 10 shots. Hitting on 3s wounding on 3s with a 3+ save.

I could take tau with Dark Angels (apparently the worst codex)
Yes some armies have issues due to age (give them a chance we've had 5 codices in only a short while)

To all dark angels this against Tau
Libby w PFG 95
Libby w PFG 95
Command squad in DP 5x flamer 160
Command squad in DP 5x flamer 160

Tactical squad (10) with melta and missile 180 ish x 4

Devastator (10) 4x lascannon 220
Devastator (10) 4x lascannon 220

And fill it out have an empty pod somewhere.

I can do other lists too if you want.

I think the Troops come from the X4 at the end of the tac squad. At least thats the way I read it

Tau haven't gone too far. They just got better. It used to be the Tau that got spanked in every game, not the other way around.