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 Troike wrote:
But you could say the same thing about Tullius. In the civil war, you either opppose what he's doing or side with him. And "definitive" personality is rather subjective. One could take view that they, the player are the "difinitive" personality as it is their decisions that drive and shape events.

But Tullius is the status quo. He is stability, if not a little constriction, for the average Nord. Things were not terrible under Torygg from what we have gathered. Ulfric represents that stability being thrown off in an effort to free Skyrim, regardless of the far reaching effects this has on the greater world, Ulfric's actions affect everyone in the world just as much as Alduin's actions do.

I'd certainly disagree that Alduin pales in comparison to anything. He's called the World-eater! If he's not stopped, then the civil war hardly matters. I'd say that the game's focus is very much on the Dragons returning, since they're an ever present and deadly threat while the civil war can basically be ignored and left in the background.

Alduin is a backdrop piece. I never saw him attack places, I never got into fights with him, and I never saw him wreck havoc beyond Helgen... What a big baddie! Sure there are dragons everywhere, but that doesn't matter, I kill them all like I kill a wolf... one hack at a time. Alduin should be a presence in the world. You should hear about the world eater attacking places, not random dragon spawns.

Thing is, there's always this big problem that the player prevents in TES games. And that means the big problem never really becomes a big issue in history. The Neveraine defeated Dagoth Ur -- so guess what, Akulakhan did not make much of a splash. Same thing regarding Mehrunes Dagon invading the world in TES IV and Alduin's return in TES V.

 Alfndrate wrote:

But Tullius is the status quo. He is stability, if not a little constriction, for the average Nord. Things were not terrible under Torygg from what we have gathered. Ulfric represents that stability being thrown off in an effort to free Skyrim, regardless of the far reaching effects this has on the greater world, Ulfric's actions affect everyone in the world just as much as Alduin's actions do.

Why is the breaking of the status quo automatically more important than the enforcing of it? If anything, they are dependant on each other to be important. Tuillius winnign affects everybody too. The Empire keeps a province, ban on Talos worship is fully enforced and Elisif becomes High Queen.

 Alfndrate wrote:
Alduin is a backdrop piece. I never saw him attack places, I never got into fights with him, and I never saw him wreck havoc beyond Helgen... What a big baddie! Sure there are dragons everywhere, but that doesn't matter, I kill them all like I kill a wolf... one hack at a time. Alduin should be a presence in the world. You should hear about the world eater attacking places, not random dragon spawns.

He is, ultimately, the game's main antagonist. And of course you never see him wreck havoc much beyond Helgan, besides seeing him at Kynesgrove and in a random encounter. That's the case with a lot of video game antagonists, you're introduced to them in the first part, see them a few times throughout and finally meet for a massive showdown at the end. Ulfric, rather, will only ever be in Windhelm or attacking Solitude if you're feeling rebellious.

 Manchu wrote:
Thing is, there's always this big problem that the player prevents in TES games. And that means the big problem never really becomes a big issue in history. The Neveraine defeated Dagoth Ur -- so guess what, Akulakhan did not make much of a splash. Same thing regarding Mehrunes Dagon invading the world in TES IV and Alduin's return in TES V.

I wouldn't call Dagon's invasion a small issue historically by means. Firstly, it was entirely unprecedented. A plane of Oblivion tried to outright invade Mundas. And I'd say that it was a big damn issue in history. The Oblivion Crisis caused the Empire to over-extend, and start losing control of the Provinces. The Thalmor and An-Xileel were easily able to take control of their respective lands with the Empire so weakened. The Thalmor especially rode to power on the back of the Oblvion Crisis, claiming it was they who restored the barrier between Mundas and Oblivion and the Legion not being strong enough to discourage them from taking power.

As for Alduin, I'll wager that quite publically nearly ending the world, and bringing Dragons back into existence will make something of a splash historically.

 Manchu wrote:
Thing is, there's always this big problem that the player prevents in TES games. And that means the big problem never really becomes a big issue in history. The Neveraine defeated Dagoth Ur -- so guess what, Akulakhan did not make much of a splash. Same thing regarding Mehrunes Dagon invading the world in TES IV and Alduin's return in TES V.

I've never beaten Morrowind or Oblivion (I should fix this), but there doesn't seem to be much about the previous games and their endings in Skyrim so I don't know how much of an effect those world threatening issues are noted in history. Which is why I would love to see a war torn skyrim with destroyed villages, hubs of humanity struggling against the Dragons, with a few major cities surviving the attacks (like Solitude, Windhelm, the College with the rest of Winterhold being destroyed and a magical barrier being put up around it).

I think showing the effect of Alduin and the dragons could have an effect on Skyrim would make for a better game.

Like, there just doesn't seem to be ANY sort of urgency to my questing, but like I'm pushing through dawnguard to stop all these damn vampire attacks.

I guess I'm not being clear enough. It's not that the Oblivion Crisis or the return of dragons are historically insignificant. It's that Mehrunes Dagon and Alduin did not destroy the world. So even though there were these massive threats, what ends up being important is not the threats themselves but their context. Only a handful of people in the world know what Alduin is up to. It's just not as culturally important as the civil war. The fact is, Alduin came back and was slain, the end. The effects of the civil war will be felt for decades yet to come at least.

 Manchu wrote:
I guess I'm not being clear enough. It's not that the Oblivion Crisis or the return of dragons are historically insignificant. It's that Mehrunes Dagon and Alduin did not destroy the world. So even though there were these massive threats, what ends up being important is not the threats themselves but their context. Only a handful of people in the world know what Alduin is up to. It's just not as culturally important as the civil war. The fact is, Alduin came back and was slain, the end. The effects of the civil war will be felt for decades yet to come at least.

Sorry if it feels/reads like I'm disagreeing with you (in case you're responding to my post). I agree that the Civil War has longer lasting effects than Alduin's presence, but this is why I wish that the BBEG had more of an effect on the world than he does. If it was Alduin came back, destroyed 5 of the 9 holds and then was slain, but was also the cause of the Empire and the Stormcloaks stopping their war to fight back, then he might end up as something more than a footnote .

Nah, I was responding to Troike -- should have been more clear.

You could connect the Oblivion Crisis to the gradual fall of the Empire beyond the collapse of the Septim Dynasty. It seems that the Legions all got recalled to Cyrodill during the Crisis, which forced some of other provinces (namely Morrowind as mentioned by characters) to fight the Crisis themselves. In this way the Oblivion Crisis, while seeming localized in ESIV did have a global effect in Tamriel (more than Alduin thus far seems to). This no doubt brought some bitter feelings to the provinces and maybe even paved the way for the Thalmor to seize power in Summerset (actually Summerset would be a cool place to go next too).

Likewise, in Daggerfall the player character was a pretty big player. Sure he was doing what he did at the bequest of the Emperor but you could side with a whole bunch of people in that game's ending and the Dragon Break made it all canon which is cool. Unfortunately Bethesda seems to be moving away from Dragon Breaks.

Well, it's a pretty important part of the main quest story line ...

 Manchu wrote:
Well, it's a pretty important part of the main quest story line ...

I mean Dragon Breaks in regard to to giving the player character options and making all of them canon in the end XD Sry.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Thing is, there's always this big problem that the player prevents in TES games. And that means the big problem never really becomes a big issue in history. The Neveraine defeated Dagoth Ur -- so guess what, Akulakhan did not make much of a splash. Same thing regarding Mehrunes Dagon invading the world in TES IV and Alduin's return in TES V.

I've never beaten Morrowind or Oblivion (I should fix this), but there doesn't seem to be much about the previous games and their endings in Skyrim so I don't know how much of an effect those world threatening issues are noted in history. Which is why I would love to see a war torn skyrim with destroyed villages, hubs of humanity struggling against the Dragons, with a few major cities surviving the attacks (like Solitude, Windhelm, the College with the rest of Winterhold being destroyed and a magical barrier being put up around it).

I think showing the effect of Alduin and the dragons could have an effect on Skyrim would make for a better game.

Like, there just doesn't seem to be ANY sort of urgency to my questing, but like I'm pushing through dawnguard to stop all these damn vampire attacks.

Morrowind was just a footnote at best in history, much like Alduin, few knew what was going on, since it was a really just a Blade operation. The bigger real impacts came afterwards when the triumvirate collapsed on itself, with two of the three dying, and that itself had bigger impacts to the regional politics then the main story line. It's almost like Skyrim, the main story, in which your working to save the world, ends up being a smaller affair then a side story overall.

Oblivion was differant in those regards. The Oblivion Crisis did have resounding impacts throughout Tamriel. The Septim dynasty was ended. The seeds for the war with the Altmer were planted. None of the side quests/expansions really played a huge thing like the story line did.

For the next ES's, I'm hoping for a continuation of the war. The Empire is invading Summerset Isle.

The thing is, the civil war seems really big in Skyrim because it's everywhere you go. And while the troops are there... as already mentioned, Ulfric himself is sat in Windhelm most of the time.
With the Dragons, everyone knows they've come back, the dragons themselves pop up all over the place. Alduin himself, though, can only be seen if you catch him waking up a Dragon from one of the burial mounds until the time comes to confront him (twice).

Spot the similarity? Neither character is actually all that prevalent unless you make a mini-game out of stalking Ulfric (you creepy, creepy person). But the effects of their actions are felt across the game.

You also have to remember that the game is set in Skyrim, so the civil war will seem more important within its borders. Likewise with Dragons *if* they haven't been reawoken elsewhere, which there isn't really any mention of either way. When the next game comes, it's likely to be in a different setting so the civil war will be something only alluded to in comments or mentioned in the lore books. Just like how the events of the other games are barely mentioned in Skyrim.

 Manchu wrote:
I guess I'm not being clear enough. It's not that the Oblivion Crisis or the return of dragons are historically insignificant. It's that Mehrunes Dagon and Alduin did not destroy the world. So even though there were these massive threats, what ends up being important is not the threats themselves but their context. Only a handful of people in the world know what Alduin is up to. It's just not as culturally important as the civil war. The fact is, Alduin came back and was slain, the end. The effects of the civil war will be felt for decades yet to come at least.

Of course noboy ends the world. Would be kinda hard to make sequels otherwise! And I'd argue that the Dragons will have a bigger cultural impact in the long run. If they're in the next TES game, they will have outlasted the civil war, remaining a constant threat that civilisation must adapt to. All because of Alduin.

And yet who will know Alduin's name? Ulfric, meanwhile, is already (in)famous and if his rebellion canonically succeeds his fame will only grow. Alduin is dead no matter what Bethesda chooses as the "official ending" of TES V. But we're kind of off-topic. The issue is, Ulfric is more important to the setting than Alduin in TES V itself. Alduin may be hypothetically more important but in actuality he's doomed from the start and long before any but a handful know what/who he is and what he's up to. By that point, every man, woman, and child of Skyrim is living in an era that Ulfric more than any other person has shaped.

I can't find the exact wording, but Viarmo of the Bard's College says the exact opposite... about how kings and their reigns come and go, but tales of Dragons will last for eras. He's kinda got a point...

If that was indeed his point then he's being ironic: the Bard's College quest is about remembering King Olaf, who imprisoned Numinex in Dragonsreach.

 Manchu wrote:
And yet who will know Alduin's name?

That all depends on how popular Tale of the Tongues gets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJn22pzVNUQ

As the song shows, the people are well aware what was happening.

And yet even so no one anywhere is talking about Alduin.

LOL also, the song is about what happened in the First Age.

 Manchu wrote:
And yet even so no one anywhere is talking about Alduin.

LOL also, the song is about what happened in the First Age.

But they're all in the pub, hearing the bard play. It's a sure indication that it has entered into common knowledge. That and the guards will thank you for saving the world in some of their greetings.

Also, I know the song is from the First Age, but it's specifically bought back because of what the player does. Mikael and Karita even dedicate the song to the Dragonborn before playing it.

But that doesn't mean they know Alduin is back -- it just means they know the Dragonborn is supposed to be a dragon slayer.

 Manchu wrote:
But that doesn't mean they know Alduin is back

I don't see how it doesn't. It's only after you the player kill Alduin for the good that the bards start playing the song (which is about Alduin's defeat) and dedicating it to you, and the guards start saying "You have vanquished a great evil from this land".

Even in the most charitable reading, they still aren't even mentioning Alduin and no one else is talking about him. Face it, the civil war is much more important to the game.

But the song indicates that the news has entered into popular culture, and the guards mention it regularly. Therefore, it can be reasonably inferred that Alduin and his defeat are common knowledge.

The existence of sweet roll theft is also common knowledge. The subject to hand is, Ulfric's civil war is the most important in-game topic.

I disagree. Lots of NPCs talk about it, but Alduin is very much the focus of the plot.

And hey, you don't get a new song for deciding the civil war.

Which NPCs talk about Alduin? Besides the secret society members and the isolated monks, I mean.

Bards 'n Guards.

Er, as we established, neither group mentions him by name as a current event topic. The bards dedicate singing some old song about ancient times to the Dragonborn while the Guards mention a great evil. As I said, even if we were to assume they know that Alduin himself had returned and that he was killed, it has no more bearing on the culture of the setting than Ragnar the Red or stolen sweet rolls.

Hey man. Sweet Rolls is serious business.

I give that meme 10/10.