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I was thinking of an all suit list using the Enclave Rules. But without Riptides is this too brittle?

Commander: target lock, drone controller, 2 Missile Pods, Marker Drone 140
Commander: target lock, drone controller, 2 Missile Pods, Marker Drone 140

3 Crisis: 6 Plasma, bonded, 1 Gun Drone 171
3 Crisis: 6 Plasma, bonded, 1 Gun Drone 171
2 Crisis: 4 Melta, 2 Flamers, bonded 116
2 Crisis: 4 Melta, 2 Flamers, bonded 116
3 Crisis: 5 Flamers, 1 Burstcannon, bonded 104
3 Crisis: 5 Flamers, 1 Burst cannon, bonded 104

4 Marker Drones 56
4 Marker Drones 56

2 Broadsides: HYMP, EWO, 4 Missile Drones, bonded 190
2 Broadsides: HYMP, EWO, 4 Missile Drones, bonded 190
2 Broadsides: HYMP, EWO, 4 Missile Drones, bonded 190

So I'm not sure on whether to run Broadsides as two sets of 3 or three sets of 2. 2 strong Marker teams light up stuff. 32 S7 shots, 36 S5 shots 24 S6 Ap2 shots 8 melta guns AND 14 flamers. In terms of damage output I don't think there's anything I can't deal with. However I can't take a huge amount of punishment. Whilst I've maxed my troops choices it is only 18 bodies and 34 wounds. The list in total adds another 30 models and 42 wounds, so 76 wounds total is not too bad, and my current Tau only have 24 wounds in Troops all T3 and 4+ save. So am I worrying about nothing?

I'm curious as to the purpose of the flamer equipped suits - are they there to deep strike or to provide overwatch?

Looks like quite a solid list in general, I wouldn't worry about troops too much as some list just have troops to claim objectives whereas yours have six units as the main army element - if you aren't being tabled you should have troops left I guess.

I think riptides just add the ability to take damage that crisis suits just don't really have. A list like this with added riptides is always going to have more staying power, particularly if you run the riptides in the centre of the field and force your opponent to deal with them.

I like your lists by the way, they tend to give an interesting competitive take on the codex - keep them coming

I cant see why it wouldn't be viable

Though id love to add in more tricks like that mirror dex if its possible (i dont have a ipad)

and with the crisis suit commander having no access to iridium armor, perhaps a stim or some shields to keep it alive would be in order.

the amount of flamers seems excessive too, perhaps more plasmas or if your worried about hordes, multiple burst cannons instead. (personal preference though)

The flamer squads are cheap infantry damage. Not just Hordes. Against Marines say I get 5 Hits per flamer that's on average 25 S4 hits and 2 S5 hits doing about 14 wounds on average that should be 5 dead marines. For 104 points that's not bad. Plus the damage they do to GEQ and worse save models. Plus the great options for support fire. How I'd use them would depend on opponent mission and deployment.

Plasmas are great but FAR more points than the flamer squads. Plus I always like to run units in pairs where possible for duel threat and redundancy. To be honest if I had more points to spare I get more gun drones for the Crisis teams first.

IF you keep the list fundamentally the same:

Change the two plasma squad gun drones to a second ML drone for your Mark'o commanders. Much more useful.

IF you're willing to change:

The above, + Double Burst Cannon suits over Flamers. It's not that much more expensive, maybe you have to take 1 less suit or something. As much as I love the concept of flamer crisis, unless you're lucky and don't scatter, they're dead on arrival pretty much. Or they're slunking across the board offering nothing until they get there...if they ever do.

Just my .02

Yeah good point the extra Marker Drones shifts me up to 6 meaning I should get a ML hit when snapfiring. I'll make that change.

If I shift to Burstcannon suits that's 50 points to find. Where is the question? The 2 units cost 208 points 5 Burst cannon suits cost 215 points and I lose symmetry which I don't like from both an OCD point of view and a target priority point of view.

Just my 2 Pennies worth, I'm liking the Flamers, throw them forwards and flame your lungs out and then, when you get charged they're tremendous, with the auto hits

Look, keep the flamers if you want em, but you asked if this was viable and I just don't think they will aid your list against the majority of opponents. They can be ignored too easily in the early goings as they get into position.

Then, once they are in position, even in the best case scenario where you've used terrain to sneak up and actually get your templates off, one bad 2D6 jump and they are toast. I'll grant you, they've got a decent chance of making their points back on just one shooting phase, but I state again, this is the best case scenario. Against most armies, you will be ignored until they see you are one turn away, then everything will focus on them and they've got the same problem all crisis have...they're just 6 marines in the toughness, wound and save department.

Now, against horde Daemons (less popular than Flying Circus), Tyranids (rare until November) and Orks (nearly extinct) these will be useful because, with your opponent coming to you, you don't have to be (as) cagey to survive long enough to do something useful.

I rest my case. I think they're cool, and if you reference my signature, you can see where I am on this from a 'fun' perspective; but you asked about viability, and there you are.

So what do I drop to find the 50 points?

I think one of those fusion suits is the answer. 3 is still adequate. You'll be hard pressed against land raider spam but that list is rare and still susceptible to DSing the fusion.

Vengeance Weapon Batteries are the other concern. S8 Ap3 and AV14 around is just a problem to deal with. I think if the Fusion units were full I'd drop them down to 2s but Solo suits have such a hard time with my dice rolling (last time I fought a Landraider 5 melta hits resulted in just 2 glances...)

That's my issue I drop something that weakens the list over all the improve the efficacy of what are little more than throw away units. Sure with Burstcannons they'd be more than that. But I quite like the ability yo just DS them in and cause a distraction. Or float them about backfield to help against assaults.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I could drop 2 ML drones to upgrade 1 unit...

How about this:

Commander: target lock, drone controller, 2 Missile Pods, Marker Drone 140
Commander: target lock, drone controller, 2 Missile Pods, Marker Drone 140

3 Crisis: 6 Plasma, bonded, 159
3 Crisis: 6 Plasma, bonded, 159
2 Crisis: 4 Melta, 2 Flamers, bonded 116
2 Crisis: 4 Melta, 2 Flamers, bonded 116
3 Crisis: 5 Flamers, 1 Burstcannon, bonded 104
3 Crisis: 6 Burstcannons, 1 Target lock, bonded 134

4 Marker Drones 56
4 Marker Drones 56

2 Broadsides: HYMP, EWO, 4 Missile Drones, bonded 190
2 Broadsides: HYMP, EWO, 4 Missile Drones, bonded 190
2 Broadsides: HYMP, EWO, 4 Missile Drones, bonded 190

That's only 24 points when you were in need of 25...where you already 1 under? But overall, a good compromise. 1 throwaway isn't as bad as two and can have some tactical merit, even if it's only to walk on from reserves and sit on an emperor's will objective. I like the list as it is constructed now.

I miss added up turns out I was 6 under (thought I was 1) hence the TL on the Burstcannon unit. To help with finishing off units. Not sure where best to spend those last 5 points?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I miss added up turns out I was 6 under (thought I was 1) hence the TL on the Burstcannon unit. To help with finishing off units. Not sure where best to spend those last 5 points?

I would drop a broadside team to fit in a riptide IMO. You're probably going to want a long range armor threat as well as a decent pie plate option.

I don't see how adding a Riptide gives me a Long Ranged armour threat. But dropping Broadsides hurts my ranged AT and AA. Not sure I need a Pie Plate either. Though the S8 AP2 interceptor is useful. Not sure I can afford to give up the AT and AA for it though.

 FlingitNow wrote:
I don't see how adding a Riptide gives me a Long Ranged armour threat. But dropping Broadsides hurts my ranged AT and AA. Not sure I need a Pie Plate either. Though the S8 AP2 interceptor is useful. Not sure I can afford to give up the AT and AA for it though.

72'' Str 9 pie plate isn't an armor threat? Your Bsides only have 36in range with a str 7 missile. That won't cover everything, and won't damage anything reliably except light armor.

Don't need a pie plate? You have plenty of MLs to make a riptide with an IA really devastating. Str8 AP 2 pie plate with ignore cover and BS5 is scary. Plus, this is a Farsight army, throw on that ECPA. You'll have to wait turn 2 at least to handle any kind of heavy armor with a DS crisis squad, if they come in at all.

I don't know man. A Farsight Enclave army not using one of the best signature systems/models in the game is kind of odd. Especially at this point level.

A S9 pie plate about 50% of the time isn't a armour threat. Considering with my 2 Riptides I've successfully Nova Charged twice from 7 attempts (I basically never Nova). Then chuck in the fact I'm giving up 16 S7 shots for that. Against AV13 for instance with 2 MLs making the tide fairly likely to hit (if it passes its 55% chance to shoot in the first place) that's 75% chance to do a Hull Point and 18.5% chance to kill.

Compare to the Missilesides with an average 2.19 Hull Points with about 26% chance to kill against AV13!! Any AV less than that and it is practically an auto kill with the Missilesides. So I'm not sure what you mean by unreliable against anything but light armour.

The Earth Caste Pilot whilst giving better odds on the Nova further increases the cost so I'd have to drop more than the Broadsides. Plus he dovetails better with HBC anyway. Plus that means more shooting at my troops as the shooting that would have gone at those Broadsides will now go at Crisis Teams as most people ignore Riptides particularly Solo Riptides.

Riptides are great but like so many units in 40k are best taken in multiples. Crisis are awesome too. I don't think Crisis spam is the most competitive Tau build by far but that doesn't mean your idea is non-viable. Stick with the Crisis spam; that last list you posted was pretty good I thought.

Yeah I agree this isn't the most competitive Tau build possible (Farsun bomb or Riptide Spam have it) I am trying an all Crisis army and don't think a Riptide actually sits well with that as it doesn't really cover the areas that the Crisis can't do by themselves.

 FlingitNow wrote:
A S9 pie plate about 50% of the time isn't a armour threat. Considering with my 2 Riptides I've successfully Nova Charged twice from 7 attempts (I basically never Nova). Then chuck in the fact I'm giving up 16 S7 shots for that. Against AV13 for instance with 2 MLs making the tide fairly likely to hit (if it passes its 55% chance to shoot in the first place) that's 75% chance to do a Hull Point and 18.5% chance to kill.

Compare to the Missilesides with an average 2.19 Hull Points with about 26% chance to kill against AV13!! Any AV less than that and it is practically an auto kill with the Missilesides. So I'm not sure what you mean by unreliable against anything but light armour.

The Earth Caste Pilot whilst giving better odds on the Nova further increases the cost so I'd have to drop more than the Broadsides. Plus he dovetails better with HBC anyway. Plus that means more shooting at my troops as the shooting that would have gone at those Broadsides will now go at Crisis Teams as most people ignore Riptides particularly Solo Riptides.

So you're going to rely on 5's and 6's to take out AV12 and AV13 if your FB cant do the job? This doesn't even bring up the fact that the missile sides can not do anything to AV14.

So by replacing one bside team with a riptide, it'll instantly change your opponent's tactic to shooting at crisis suits. Huh?

Your bsides are also doing two jobs. They are the AA, and AT. So what happens when you go up against air and armor?

I dont know. I like to have multiple answers if at all possible for most problems. It's risky going in with only the FB crisis suits being able to do anything to AV14. You're asking if this list is viable, and i'm pointing out weakness.

Yes I'll rely on 5s and 6s to deal with AV12. What is your point? Those Broadsides shoot at an AV12 vehicle it is dead. They shoot at AV13 they have a much better chance of killing it than the Riptide you are suggesting to do that job better. That is the point you're suggesting weakening the list to cover a job the list is already fine against.

Yes the Broadsides cover AT and AA if my opponent has both? Well I also have 4 other units that do AT well (both commandersand both fusion teams), so I pick what to shoot at based on target priority. I don't see how replacing Broadsides with something that doesn't do AA or AT as well as them helps solve this problem.

So you're suggesting a unit with about a 5% chance to kill AV14 whilst removing AA and AT from the list is a great way to "solve" the issue a list with 8 meltaguns has with dealing with the near nonexistent AV14 threat? For a 6th Edition list particularly Tau I'd say this list has AV14 pretty well covered.

I like your revised list and feel it is a very efficient and well thought out Farsight Enclaves list.

Ignore AnonAmbientLight, he's giving 5th edition advice on a 6th edition list.

I would drp the flamers off of the Fusion Blaster suits in favor of Advanced Targetting Systems on the Burstcannon Suits.

Cheers Zagman. My concern is that against Horde armies (and I think Nids are coming in January) that the Fusionsuits become useless without the flamers.

Do I need the ATS? Never really considered it but wouldn't it be better on the plasma suits so the model picked out is definitely dead? I like the idea but am yet convinced on the application vs the flamers on the fusionsuits it also makes those suits more of a pain once they've killed the AV14 so they can't just be ignored. Though having said that having them become low threat after they've done their job can help them stick around for objectives...

I take it you use the ATS plays burst cannon combo can you tell me more about how that helps you and which match ups you think it makes the biggest difference against?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Cheers Zagman. My concern is that against Horde armies (and I think Nids are coming in January) that the Fusionsuits become useless without the flamers.

Do I need the ATS? Never really considered it but wouldn't it be better on the plasma suits so the model picked out is definitely dead? I like the idea but am yet convinced on the application vs the flamers on the fusionsuits it also makes those suits more of a pain once they've killed the AV14 so they can't just be ignored. Though having said that having them become low threat after they've done their job can help them stick around for objectives...

I take it you use the ATS plays burst cannon combo can you tell me more about how that helps you and which match ups you think it makes the biggest difference against?

I think your fear about losing the Flamers is rooted in theory more than reality. How many true "Horde" armies are you truly going to face? Almost every one of those armies is still going to have a valid target for the Fusion Blasters. Horde Nids? Probably led by a an MC, FMC, etc. I also look at the opportunity cost of firing the Flamer, not only did you spend points on a weapon you do not use with the normal targets for your suits, but it costs you a powerful shot to use as well which reduces the benefit of the weapon. I am against triple weapon suits in general.

You certainly don't need an ATS. I truthfully have not gotten a chance to field them that way as it is a very new Idea I had literally yesterday. The Plasma Rifle Suits is the obvious choice, but many of the targets you are after benefit from LOS. Putting them on the Burst suits follows a Volume of Fire principle. Out of 24shots, 12 Hit, 4 of those are Precise. That is 4 LOS/Saves on a PF Sergent, Meltagunner, Warlock, Nob, IC, etc ForceMultiplier within a unit. Even if they are a character they will fail half of those LOS and be force to take two saves.

The Plasma Gunners get 6/12 Shots, that is 1 to 2 Precision Shot, .5 to 1 after LOS... or .42 to .83 wounds on a Space Marine Sergeant. Worse with Cover.
Burst Cannons get 24 Shots, that is 4 Precision Shots, 2 after LOS, 1.66 after Wounds, .66 wounds on a Space Marine Sergeant after Saves. Unaffected by Cover in most instances.
In a ruins the difference is .21 to .42 wounds vs .66.
Its even more effective against non Characters in a squad.

I know it is counter intuitive, but vs a Sergeant level threat the ATC BurstCannons are more effective vs all threats especially at rangers >12". This holds true against MEQ/TEQ and especially single wound GEQ. The only place ATC is better on Plasma Rifles is vs Multi Wound GEQ due to instant death, and even then its only significant on 3W GEQ.


And as an added bonus vs LOS, many players attempt to group important members of a unit surrounded by expendables, and thanks to LOS you may be able to guarantee you are happy with a failed or successful LOS depending on who you choose. For example a Runepriest is nestled next to a Wolfguard in the center of a unit, as long as they are closest to each other you can Precision shot with impunity and force a very very hard choice which can very well end up with two important targets dead.



Well, that was a little long winded and truthfully I hadn't done the math before this, but it looks like my gut instinct was right, ATCs are more effective on Burst Cannon Suits then on Fusion Blaster or Plasma Rifle Suits.

Edited: Grammar/Spelling
Edited: For Idiocy. Ignore how I talk about the huge difference, its marginal.

You're maths is off. Firstly the Plasmasuits get 6/12 shots so double all the results for them. Plus they'll be ignoring cover most of the time. Though they will probably wipe most units they fire at so the ATS would be irrelevant.

I currently run 3 Melta-melta-flamer suits in my Tau and I have fired the flamers in almost every game where I have fired the suits at all. Though this a Tau list and I don't have any other flamers. Its 5 points and gives me flexibility in the unit. And a great way to clear out objectives late game.

 FlingitNow wrote:
You're maths is off. Firstly the Plasmasuits get 6/12 shots so double all the results for them. Plus they'll be ignoring cover most of the time. Though they will probably wipe most units they fire at so the ATS would be irrelevant.

I currently run 3 Melta-melta-flamer suits in my Tau and I have fired the flamers in almost every game where I have fired the suits at all. Though this a Tau list and I don't have any other flamers. Its 5 points and gives me flexibility in the unit. And a great way to clear out objectives late game.

Ha! You are right! I have absolutely no idea why I calculated it against a single Plasma Rifle each. Even so Burst Cannons still win out at 18", but fall behind within 12". They average roughly the same. Burst Cannons better against GEQ, roughly equal against MEQ, and worse against TEQ.

You do have enough markerlights to ignore most cover... but ignoring cover for the Plasma Rifles comes at an opportunity cost of boosting the BS to 5 on the Burst Cannons, doesn't effect Precision shots but does net another 8 hits for the unit.

If the three FB/FB/Fl are the only Flamers in your Tau army I can see why they get significant use. You are already keeping 5 Flamers in the other unit so it won't be your only Flamer Templates. Burst Cannons are also good Horde Control at a safer range for a bit higher price.

Personally I'd drop the Flamers on the FB suits to upgrade the rest of the Flamer to Dual Burst Cannon Suits, but that is personal preference. With the Markerlights 48BS5 S5/AP5 shots will devastate most horde armies from a safer range.

Yeah I see that in this list I do have flamers elsewhere and the burstcannons for Horde control. I don't want to drop all flamers from the list and it wouldn't pay for the upgrade I'd need to find another 10points. I'll stick with it as is, but if I find I get little use from the fusion suit flamers I try out the ATS.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yes I'll rely on 5s and 6s to deal with AV12. What is your point? Those Broadsides shoot at an AV12 vehicle it is dead. They shoot at AV13 they have a much better chance of killing it than the Riptide you are suggesting to do that job better. That is the point you're suggesting weakening the list to cover a job the list is already fine against.

Yes the Broadsides cover AT and AA if my opponent has both? Well I also have 4 other units that do AT well (both commandersand both fusion teams), so I pick what to shoot at based on target priority. I don't see how replacing Broadsides with something that doesn't do AA or AT as well as them helps solve this problem.

So you're suggesting a unit with about a 5% chance to kill AV14 whilst removing AA and AT from the list is a great way to "solve" the issue a list with 8 meltaguns has with dealing with the near nonexistent AV14 threat? For a 6th Edition list particularly Tau I'd say this list has AV14 pretty well covered.

First of all, you somehow assume that replacing one(1) broadside unit for one(1) riptide is going to, as you put it, "make your opponent start to fire at crisis suits." I can only assume you're just spouting out generalizations because you just don't want to change your list or something similar.

I see your current list and point out it's weakness and you don't think it's one? AV14 is not a threat at all? You have crisis suits, yes, but i assume you plan to DS them. What if they don't make their reserve roll? You're gonna wait until turn 3 to start to have any kind of effect on that AV14? What if you don't DS them? You're gonna wait until that AV14 makes it to your front line to start to deal damage to it? By that time it's already too late and it's contents are spilling out on to your front lines.

What if you have flyers and other AV on the board? You're giving your Bsides a lot of work to do.

Wait, 5% chance to kill AV14? You said it was 18.5% last time. Which is it?

Now if your meta doesn't use AV14 at all, i'd understand. But making an army with only one "reliable" way to handle AV14, is not a strong army.

Least we forget that the riptide with the IA profile has the Ordnance special rule with the nova charge. That gives you a 72'' S9 large blast that rolls 2D6 for pen. (pick the highest. AP2 so +1 on the pen chart). It has the relentless special rule, so you can jump around and still fire like normal. It has the multi-tracker special rule, so you can fire two weapon systems. The IA profile also offers a pie plate, which you have none of, that can squish MEQ with ML support. You like things riding on 5's and 6's so you'll certainly love the HBC with it's nova charge 12 S6 rending shots no doubt. Not worth one broadside team though.

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yes I'll rely on 5s and 6s to deal with AV12. What is your point? Those Broadsides shoot at an AV12 vehicle it is dead. They shoot at AV13 they have a much better chance of killing it than the Riptide you are suggesting to do that job better. That is the point you're suggesting weakening the list to cover a job the list is already fine against.

Yes the Broadsides cover AT and AA if my opponent has both? Well I also have 4 other units that do AT well (both commandersand both fusion teams), so I pick what to shoot at based on target priority. I don't see how replacing Broadsides with something that doesn't do AA or AT as well as them helps solve this problem.

So you're suggesting a unit with about a 5% chance to kill AV14 whilst removing AA and AT from the list is a great way to "solve" the issue a list with 8 meltaguns has with dealing with the near nonexistent AV14 threat? For a 6th Edition list particularly Tau I'd say this list has AV14 pretty well covered.

First of all, you somehow assume that replacing one(1) broadside unit for one(1) riptide is going to, as you put it, "make your opponent start to fire at crisis suits." I can only assume you're just spouting out generalizations because you just don't want to change your list or something similar.

I see your current list and point out it's weakness and you don't think it's one? AV14 is not a threat at all? You have crisis suits, yes, but i assume you plan to DS them. What if they don't make their reserve roll? You're gonna wait until turn 3 to start to have any kind of effect on that AV14? What if you don't DS them? You're gonna wait until that AV14 makes it to your front line to start to deal damage to it? By that time it's already too late and it's contents are spilling out on to your front lines.

What if you have flyers and other AV on the board? You're giving your Bsides a lot of work to do.

Wait, 5% chance to kill AV14? You said it was 18.5% last time. Which is it?

Now if your meta doesn't use AV14 at all, i'd understand. But making an army with only one "reliable" way to handle AV14, is not a strong army.

Least we forget that the riptide with the IA profile has the Ordnance special rule with the nova charge. That gives you a 72'' S9 large blast that rolls 2D6 for pen. (pick the highest. AP2 so +1 on the pen chart). It has the relentless special rule, so you can jump around and still fire like normal. It has the multi-tracker special rule, so you can fire two weapon systems. The IA profile also offers a pie plate, which you have none of, that can squish MEQ with ML support. You like things riding on 5's and 6's so you'll certainly love the HBC with it's nova charge 12 S6 rending shots no doubt. Not worth one broadside team though.

I am fairly certain you don't understand half of what you are saying. If you think a S9AP2 Ordinance Shot that Gets hot and requires a Nova Charge to fire is effective AV14 you need to play a few more games of 40k and study basic probability.

For simplicity I'll assume you manage to hit the LR, not necessarily a guarantee at BS3, but your theory needs all the help it can get.

Nova Successful 2/3.
Gets Hot 5/6.
Thats 5/9 successful so you already fail 44% of the time.

Now we assume auto hit, lets call it using enough marker lights to guarantee a hit.

To Glance 11/36.
To Pen 11/36.

So you will deal a Hull Point 22% of the Time.

Pen 11% of the Time

And with a 1/3 chance of Destruction....


[b]You Destroy a Land Raider 3.6% of the time.

You will roll a natural Destroyed result once every 28 shots, or nearly kill a Riptide twice over with Nova Attempts before you get lucky enough to One Shot an LR.

Ok, the Riptide has other ways of opening AV14, but a Nova Charged IA isn't one of them. He is better off moving up and using RippleFire with his TLFusion Blaster assuming to took it.

Get within 9".... so if this doesn't work that assault unit can tear you to shreds....

Requires a successful Nova Charge....

44% assuming you get within 9", and assuming you get off a Nova Charge. Compare that to a single shot with his 4 Fusion Blasters of 58%.

He has 4 Fusion Blasters on Suits, that is more than enough to open an LR considering its a sub par choice on the competitive scene. He has an entire battlesuit army. He can avoid the contents of an LR for 3 turns, and once they get out, he can wipe them out. An LR itself doesn't bring enough firepower to the table to scare him so he can virtually ignore it.


Now with all of that being said Marker lights can improve the odds, and that is hugely in favor of the Fusion Blaster Suits, 4 BS5 Fusion Blasters have a 97% chance of Destroying AV14.


And if you don't think Missile Sides can handle armor, even AV13..... It takes only two turns of shooting from a pair of Missilesides with drones to strip away 3HP from AV13 and only a single turn to take out a 3HP AV12 Vehicle.

Edit: For completeness a Novaharged HBC has a 5.5% chance of destroying AV14 and 11% chance of removing a Hullpoint. This can be brought up to 9/18% with two markerlights.

"I am fairly certain you don't understand half of what you are saying. If you think a S9AP2 Ordinance Shot that Gets hot and requires a Nova Charge to fire is effective AV14 you need to play a few more games of 40k and study basic probability. "

You're projecting here. It's a turn 1, AV14 alternative that can also pie plate MEQ/hoards consistently with ML support, or have you not been reading what i put?

"For simplicity I'll assume you manage to hit the LR, not necessarily a guarantee at BS3, but your theory needs all the help it can get. "

No need to be snide. In fact, if you've been following my posts in this thread, i mention ML support often. I actually do not suggest anyone taking a riptide without ML support. Thanks for the condescending remark though. Actually, have you been reading anything? Maybe you should calm down before you post.

"Nova Successful 2/3.
Gets Hot 5/6.
That's 5/9 successful so you already fail 44% of the time. "

So 66% of the time you pass both? That's better than average. And if you add an ECPA, i'm sure that pass rate would be much higher. He is using the enclave codex after all. Why pass up one of the only useful signature systems?

This is where i get confused. You say that the pen. on a S9 Ordnance weapon is only 11% on hit. That's odd. I've seen mathhammer that points to Longstrike having 46.2% chance to pen AV14, and the only difference is S1, assuming the BS is 5 for the riptide of course. You also forget to mention the riptide can fire it's FB as well as the nova charged IA. So actually, you kind of prove my point even better. You can get 2 pens rather easily if the riptide is within 9'' of the target, oh, and you can still assault it afterwards too, if you wanted....RIPTIDE SMASH!

"lucky enough to One Shot an LR."

Projecting again. Who said anything about one shotting a LR? I was only pointing out that he had no way to deal with AV14 until turn 2, and that's only if the crisis suits come on to the field, and without mishap.

"He can avoid the contents of an LR for 3 turns,"

They can still be shot at by the LR, and the Bsides are not going anywhere. Since you're not firing at him he can just go straight for them and unload for turn 3.

I would advise you to stop projecting, read carefully, and maybe check your math. The OP asked if it is viable for a full enclave list with no riptide (and apparently no other AT AV14 support other than reserve crisis suits).

Why the hell would the OP make a thread asking if something minus X is viable, and then get upset or even hostile when someone comes in to discuss it?