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TanKoL wrote:
Yes it is in addition, but the special rule only triggers if you choose the relevant lore as "your lore of choice"

His chosen lore, means the lore in the brackets, if he has loremaster high, he knows all the spells from high magic.

Therefore, he knows all the spells from high, and 4 spells from life.

no he knows all spells for his chosen lore and then he is a level four, for dice generating purpose only. Unless it states he can know multiple lores and freely chose between them he can't

Loremaster of High magic grants you 8 spells.

8 spells from your Lore if High is your Lore. It also prevents you rolling for spell generation. Stop only apply a small section of the Loremaster rule.

But because the slann purchases Loremastery in addition to generating 4 spells, he gets his 4 spells as well as loremastery.

Yes but he is not allowed to roll any spells per Loremaster rules. So those 4 spells are never generated. Whilst Loremaster only gives him spells from his Lore which as it is High means he gets none from that.

Whilst RAI, he should only get the loremastery. But, RAW currently, the loremastery does not replace his spell generation as it is an upgrade in addition to the normal spells, so he gets his basic 4 spells, as well as all of high magic.

So even by your own ideas this is admitting you are cheating. Then you've stated RAW means something that RAW clearly doesn't.

"A Wizard with the Loremaster special rule knows all the spells from HIS chosen lore" raw his Lore only!

"He does not need to roll randomly" RAW he does not roll for spells.

Your too stuck up on the HIS part of that discription. But seeing as how you wont ever concede im not gonna argue about it anymore.


Until someone can convince me that im just reading wrong (which im not) then we'll just have to agree to dissagree.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Loremaster of High magic grants you 8 spells.

8 spells from your Lore if High is your Lore. It also prevents you rolling for spell generation. Stop only apply a small section of the Loremaster rule.

But because the slann purchases Loremastery in addition to generating 4 spells, he gets his 4 spells as well as loremastery.

Yes but he is not allowed to roll any spells per Loremaster rules. So those 4 spells are never generated. Whilst Loremaster only gives him spells from his Lore which as it is High means he gets none from that.

Whilst RAI, he should only get the loremastery. But, RAW currently, the loremastery does not replace his spell generation as it is an upgrade in addition to the normal spells, so he gets his basic 4 spells, as well as all of high magic.

So even by your own ideas this is admitting you are cheating. Then you've stated RAW means something that RAW clearly doesn't.

"A Wizard with the Loremaster special rule knows all the spells from HIS chosen lore" raw his Lore only!

"He does not need to roll randomly" RAW he does not roll for spells.

Loremaster doesn't actually prohibit you from rolling. It just says that he doesn't need to. It also doesn't say that he has to take that lore as his only lore. So if you could purchase loremaster for any mage, they would get loremastery of lore X in addition to their normal lore, as they don't have it in their Special Rules. Is that point so hard to understand?

Yeah, you don't NEED to roll for poisoned attacks either, and so are you gonna roll to wound when you roll a 6? No.
And:

YOU GAVE 8 SPELLS BE HAPPY KEEP FRIENDS AND PLAY NICE

and I think the army can do pretty well without 12 spells

Loremaster doesn't actually prohibit you from rolling. It just says that he doesn't need to. It also doesn't say that he has to take that lore as his only lore. So if you could purchase loremaster for any mage, they would get loremastery of lore X in addition to their normal lore, as they don't have it in their Special Rules. Is that point so hard to understand?

So you start of by saying that when it says you don't need to roll that you can in fact still roll (i.e. breaking RaW). Then you reiterate a bunch of stuff I've NEVER disagreed with. So please provide some rules to contradict my points or concede. So you need to find some rules that say:

1) A Slaan can choose 2 Lores.
2) Focus of Mystery gives you an exception to the normal Loremaster rules and allows you yo know all spells from High even if you don't select High as your Lore.
3) Slaan have an exception to the normal Loremaster rules that allows them to roll for Spells even when they are a Loremaster.

Please quote where the 3 rules above are because I can't see them. If you can contradict these RaW concede.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Loremaster doesn't actually prohibit you from rolling. It just says that he doesn't need to. It also doesn't say that he has to take that lore as his only lore. So if you could purchase loremaster for any mage, they would get loremastery of lore X in addition to their normal lore, as they don't have it in their Special Rules. Is that point so hard to understand?

So you start of by saying that when it says you don't need to roll that you can in fact still roll (i.e. breaking RaW). Then you reiterate a bunch of stuff I've NEVER disagreed with. So please provide some rules to contradict my points or concede. So you need to find some rules that say:

1) A Slaan can choose 2 Lores.
2) Focus of Mystery gives you an exception to the normal Loremaster rules and allows you yo know all spells from High even if you don't select High as your Lore.
3) Slaan have an exception to the normal Loremaster rules that allows them to roll for Spells even when they are a Loremaster.

Please quote where the 3 rules above are because I can't see them. If you can contradict these RaW concede.

1- Loremaster does not limit you to a single lore. Therefore a level 4 life with loremaster x would in deed have access to both lores.
2- See point 1.
3- Loremaster RAW says that you don't need to roll for spells on that particular lore. It says nothing about that being your only lore. Therefore, RAW, if you're a loremaster with access to spells from a lore other than the lore you have loremastery from, I.E. Slann with focus of Mystery, then you roll for the spells from aforementioned other lore.

Quick thought: There is precedent in the BRB for loremaster of a Lore other than your own.

Nehekarian Sphinx: which can randomly grant any character loremaster (death). It says only a wizard can take advantage of this, but does NOT say the wizard has to already have Lore of death to use it.

So unless the Sphinx has been FAQed differently, there's a point in favor of the 12 spell Slaan.

kooshlord wrote:
Quick thought: There is precedent in the BRB for loremaster of a Lore other than your own.

Nehekarian Sphinx: which can randomly grant any character loremaster (death). It says only a wizard can take advantage of this, but does NOT say the wizard has to already have Lore of death to use it.

So unless the Sphinx has been FAQed differently, there's a point in favor of the 12 spell Slaan.

And the fact that nothing in the BRB says that loremaster means you only have access to that lore. IT was assumed it did, as until now, there has been very few ways to give mages access to other lores.

You had already rolled for spells at the start of the game though. The rule is gained after you have started playing

 thedarkavenger wrote:

kooshlord wrote:
Quick thought: There is precedent in the BRB for loremaster of a Lore other than your own.

Nehekarian Sphinx: which can randomly grant any character loremaster (death). It says only a wizard can take advantage of this, but does NOT say the wizard has to already have Lore of death to use it.

So unless the Sphinx has been FAQed differently, there's a point in favor of the 12 spell Slaan.

And the fact that nothing in the BRB says that loremaster means you only have access to that lore. IT was assumed it did, as until now, there has been very few ways to give mages access to other lores.

Well using that logic the orc and goblin book says skull muncha and gnarla have " terror and size matters "skullmuncha and gnarla"" It doesn't say the lords. So if you kill their mounts the lords get scared of snotlings fleeing even tho earlier in the book it says orcs don't suffer from this. Oh well with their poor wording and such not my fault. Just like how they say in some of the older books the caster may choose spells from said lores. Doesn't say they have to, so any lore is up for grabs

There is always common sense needed to read.

And the fact that nothing in the BRB says that loremaster means you only have access to that lore.

And nothing in the BRB or Lizardman codex says you can have 2 lores...

 FlingitNow wrote:

And the fact that nothing in the BRB says that loremaster means you only have access to that lore.

And nothing in the BRB or Lizardman codex says you can have 2 lores...

If you can find me something that explicitly prevents me from using lore of life in conjunction to High Magic loremastery, then I'll concede.

Well. This is a mighty arguement for cheating.

There is still nothing saying a Slann can choose from 2 lores. So since you've taken the Loremaster discipline your Lore is pre-decided. High magic.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Well. This is a mighty arguement for cheating.

There is still nothing saying a Slann can choose from 2 lores. So since you've taken the Loremaster discipline your Lore is pre-decided. High magic.

Where does it say that my lore is predecided? Loremaster states that a mage has chosen a lore and he knows all the spells from it. Nothing about having to use that. In the past it was ruled so as it was in the Special Rules of a character so you were either assigned a lore or got to pick a loremastery.

HOWEVER, since a slann can choose to purchase loremastery, he is able to roll for his spells as well as take loremastery on another lore because of that precise wording of the special rule.

Still nothing saying a Slann can take 2 lores. The main rules specify that a wizard can only know spells from one Lore. The only exceptions are High Elves (taking a specific upgrade) and a Slann discipline (the same as the High Elf upgrade).

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Well. This is a mighty arguement for cheating.

There is still nothing saying a Slann can choose from 2 lores. So since you've taken the Loremaster discipline your Lore is pre-decided. High magic.

Where does it say that my lore is predecided? Loremaster states that a mage has chosen a lore and he knows all the spells from it. Nothing about having to use that. In the past it was ruled so as it was in the Special Rules of a character so you were either assigned a lore or got to pick a loremastery.

HOWEVER, since a slann can choose to purchase loremastery, he is able to roll for his spells as well as take loremastery on another lore because of that precise wording of the special rule.

Page 134, Wizards and Spell Lores.

You do need to make a note in your army roster of which spell lore each of your Wizards will use

This is singular; each Wizard only has, unless something specifically states otherwise, a single Lore. Page 29 (Choosing your Lore) reinforces that. So you select the Lore that a mage takes as part of the army selection, which is the same time as you choose what items a character takes.

Loremaster states:

A Wizards with the Loremaster special rule knows all the spells from his chosen Lore... The lore in question is normally given in brackets as part of the Loremaster special rule.

So when building the army, you have to note down the lore that the Slann is taking. As per the model having Loremaster (High Magic), his chosen lore is High Magic. You don't even have the option of taking a Slann with this special rule and choosing any other Lore; that would conflict with the Loremaster rule. You've even admitted that the chosen Lore is High Magic in your post (bolded above)

You are trying to find little chinks in the rules to allow your interpretation, and in doing so ignoring the (overwhelming) evidence against your interpretation. At best, you're Easter-egging; the very section I bolded above makes it pretty clear to me that you're trying to cheat.

I love how this thread is three pages of this guy trying to draw straws.

If his interpretation is correct then how come it's NEVER come up at any tournaments since 8th edition came out? It hasn't. Not once. So better people than him have not tried to wrangle this half as hard.

Stop trying to justify cheating.

If you want you can turn this into a poll...

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
I love how this thread is three pages of this guy trying to draw straws.

If his interpretation is correct then how come it's NEVER come up at any tournaments since 8th edition came out? It hasn't. Not once. So better people than him have not tried to wrangle this half as hard.

Stop trying to justify cheating.

It's never come up because the slann is the first model that can buy loremastery.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
I love how this thread is three pages of this guy trying to draw straws.

If his interpretation is correct then how come it's NEVER come up at any tournaments since 8th edition came out? It hasn't. Not once. So better people than him have not tried to wrangle this half as hard.

Stop trying to justify cheating.

It's never come up because the slann is the first model that can buy loremastery.

And Slann have been able to do so since the start of 8th edition.

People didn't do it then. People don't do it now. You're still trying to justify this?

Aelyn wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Well. This is a mighty arguement for cheating.

There is still nothing saying a Slann can choose from 2 lores. So since you've taken the Loremaster discipline your Lore is pre-decided. High magic.

Where does it say that my lore is predecided? Loremaster states that a mage has chosen a lore and he knows all the spells from it. Nothing about having to use that. In the past it was ruled so as it was in the Special Rules of a character so you were either assigned a lore or got to pick a loremastery.

HOWEVER, since a slann can choose to purchase loremastery, he is able to roll for his spells as well as take loremastery on another lore because of that precise wording of the special rule.

Page 134, Wizards and Spell Lores.

You do need to make a note in your army roster of which spell lore each of your Wizards will use

This is singular; each Wizard only has, unless something specifically states otherwise, a single Lore. Page 29 (Choosing your Lore) reinforces that. So you select the Lore that a mage takes as part of the army selection, which is the same time as you choose what items a character takes.

Loremaster states:

A Wizards with the Loremaster special rule knows all the spells from his chosen Lore... The lore in question is normally given in brackets as part of the Loremaster special rule.

So when building the army, you have to note down the lore that the Slann is taking. As per the model having Loremaster (High Magic), his chosen lore is High Magic. You don't even have the option of taking a Slann with this special rule and choosing any other Lore; that would conflict with the Loremaster rule. You've even admitted that the chosen Lore is High Magic in your post (bolded above)

You are trying to find little chinks in the rules to allow your interpretation, and in doing so ignoring the (overwhelming) evidence against your interpretation. At best, you're Easter-egging; the very section I bolded above makes it pretty clear to me that you're trying to cheat.

A)Mages generally have access to one lore, but when rules override his ability to roll normally, like having Loremastery as a Special rule, not an upgrade, or Wandering Deliberations, he is bound to take that lore. An upgrade to give a character loremastery is just that. An upgrade that gives your character something in addition to everything else.

B) His chosen lore means nothing more than a lore of his choice. There is absolutely nothing in the rule that says you have to take the lore you have mastery of. If it did, characters like Mannfred would have to take mastery of one of the lores they had access to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
I love how this thread is three pages of this guy trying to draw straws.

If his interpretation is correct then how come it's NEVER come up at any tournaments since 8th edition came out? It hasn't. Not once. So better people than him have not tried to wrangle this half as hard.

Stop trying to justify cheating.

It's never come up because the slann is the first model that can buy loremastery.

And Slann have been able to do so since the start of 8th edition.

People didn't do it then. People don't do it now. You're still trying to justify this?

Because it was worded differently in the old book. It said, and this is word for word, that the slann chooses a single lore, and he knows all the spells from that lore. The wording means everything. The new book states that he has loremastery of high magic. The old book said he is a loremaster. The difference is subtle, but huge.

You guys are trying to bully him out of his argument now saying hes trying to cheat.


There is "nothing" in the rulebook that says if you have loremaster (high magic) purchased from an upgrade that you have to pick high magic as your lore.

The generic Loremaster USR does not have anything to do with a purchased Loremaster of a specific lore.

As per the rulebook, when taking a slann, you pick your lore and roll for 4 spells as normal. You also pay 35 points for loremaster (high magic) which means you know all high magic spells.


Thats it! Until its faq'd thats how it works. If you dont like it, houserule it out.

Fluff wise its correct, since Slann are the most powerful mages in the world, period.

Is the upgrade too cheap? Yes
Could it have been an oversight on the writers part? Yes

These 2 things have nothing to do with the RAW.

A) Yes it is an upgrade, it does not give him specific permission to take more than 1 Lore. Also Loremaster(High) does nothing for him if High is not his Lore. Its like saying an upgrade that makes someone always hit with his bow still gives you an auto bow hit every shooting phase if you choose to swap his bow out for another weapon. Please read Loremaster.
B) This is simply a lie. Please stop lying. As has been pointed out to you Mannfred has specific permission to have access to two lores. Something you have yet to provide for your Slaan.

Eihnlazer two things if purchasing the Loremaster USR has nothing to do with the Loremaster USR then it does nothing for him. Where are you getting Loremaster rules outside of the Loremaster rules? Plus he has admitted he is cheating and has said he knows that his interpretation is not the rules but that he believes it is RAW and therefore he's going to use it anyway. We have pointed out that it is not RAW and posted the rules relevant. He has not coming up with a single argument against what has been posted other than "nothing says I can't still pick Life as my Lore" a claim that we agree on.

Why do you keep saying Loremaster (high magic) does nothing if you take a different lore?


the specific Loremaster (high magic) that the slann buys is not the same as Loremaster (*) in the brb.

Loremaster (*) only refferences models that gain Loremaster (*). The * becomes their lore when they gain access to that special rule.

Loremaster (High Magic) is specifically that. It grants all the spells of high magic. It has NOTHING to do with the lore chosen by the slann.

All the arguments againgst us so far have been either:
A: Loremaster (high magic) does nothing if you pick a lore other than high magic. INCORRECT
B: Loremaster (high magic) forces you to pick high magic as your lore. INCORRECT


You have been wrong on all these accounts. Until you can prove otherwise you need to stop trying to forcefeed incorrect rules here.

A) where are you getting rules for Loremaster (High magic)? Page and paragraph please. I've posted where I'm getting my rules. Which you disagree with but haven't posted any rules to support your argument.

Loremaster (*) in the brb states, as you have put many times, that the caster knows all spells of his lore.

In other words, the (*) becomes whichever lore he picks. And whichever lore is inside the () is the lore he knows the spells of.

So, quite obviously, Loremaster (high magic), means he knows all spells from high magic.

This does not however mean that he HAS to choose high magic as his lore, or that if he chooses a lore other than high magic gains no spells from high magic.

Purchasing Lore Mastery specifically grants him, Loremaster (high magic). It does nothing else, nor states that he is required to have chosen the Lore of High magic before hand.



Also, youve certainly posted were you got your rules from, but you made up false interpretations of those rules to favor your argument so it doesnt mean a whole lot.

So, quite obviously, Loremaster (high magic), means he knows all spells from high magic

Citation please for Loremaster to grant him spells from something that isn't his lore. So basically you're admitting your using the Loremaster USR but picking and choosing which parts apply... that is not RAW.

What is the slanns chosen lore?
Life.
What does the rule state?
If your chosen lore is the one in the brackets, you all spells from that lore.
What does focus of mystery give you?
Loremaster (high magic).
Is high magic the slanns chosen lore?
No. It is life.
Will the slann get.any benifit for choosing a different lore than high magic if he takes focus of mystery?
No. He has wasted 35 points in taking a rule which will give him no benefit if he decides to choose a lore other than rhe lore in the brackets.

Simple.