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Has anyone else seen this? I don't know about everyone else, but I completely agree.
http://blog.spikeybits.com/2013/08/a-messy-breakup-letter-to-gw.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+SpikeyBits+(Spikey+Bits)&m=1

Interesting but it makes me happy that I have an independent flgs.

Is it a long article? Any chance of a copy paste for those that are work blocked from blogs? I'd be keen to read it.

It really depends on the store - none of this applies to the GW I go to:

- Forgeworld all over (one of the cases has an awesome DKoK army)
- Employees don't push useless crap
- Plenty of space - 4 gaming tables, painting/modelling area that seats 6 and a smaller demo table

It was rather long but has several great points.

Umm... wow...

So, for those of you who can't be bothered, here are the author's main points.

1.) I'm a good enough 40k player that I don't need advice. Game store workers should stop giving me any.

2.) I can't bring my forgeworld cheese.

3.) I'm not open to other people saying good things about what I think is terrible. They should agree with me and go away.

4.) Other people are taking up table space that I could be using to play games.


There may be a lot of platitudinous window dressing on it, but the article is basically someone with a horrible attitude trying to blame other people because he doesn't get his way. I'd think that the players at the store he goes to should probably be glad that the author isn't playing there anymore.

A good read, and definitely some solid points. I've never stepped into a GW store (I don't have one locally), but have always been impressed with the FLGS and been happy to pay slightly more buying there. They're involved in the local club, run tournaments, D and D quests and plenty of other events and have room for you to play instore (although I mostly play at the club) . All of this makes people keen to support them.

It's interesting to read about the more aggressive approach to sales at some GW stores. I'll always get a "Can I help you?" when I go to the FLGS, but if I say no, they'll leave me to browse. It would annoy the hell out of me if they kept pushing after that, especially if they were trying to sell me awful units. Blocking off FW is also odd- the FLGS will order FW if you ask, even if they don't stock it, and they don't mind people using it.

I'm sure many of the GW stores around the place are great (they can't all be this bad), and some FLGS are bad. However, if the problems covered in the article are due to how GW is training it's staff (and if staff are ignoring half of this training to do a better job), then GW is taking the wrong approach to providing successful brick and mortar stores.

 Ailaros wrote:
So, for those of you who can't be bothered, here are the author's main points.

Well, they're his "main points" if you blatantly distort them and make stuff up.

1.) I'm a good enough 40k player that I don't need advice. Game store workers should stop giving me any.

There's a difference between giving useful advice and pushy sales tactics where the employee is constantly trying to get you to buy more stuff. At independent stores which don't suffer from GW's idiotic performance standards the employees tend to recognize experienced players and leave them alone until they ask for advice.

2.) I can't bring my forgeworld cheese.

Yes, we get it, you hate FW and think that everything is "cheese" even when it's weaker than codex units. However, back in the real world, nothing in the article suggests that the author is trying to bring something too overpowered for the local group to handle. So we're left with the idiocy of banning a GW product in a GW store because it doesn't benefit the individual employee's sales numbers (which is something that GW is obsessed with far beyond any sane level).

3.) I'm not open to other people saying good things about what I think is terrible. They should agree with me and go away.

Yeah, because "someone is having fun and I don't like that" is really what's happening here. Maybe you should read the article again and see that the person is complaining about GW employees giving out bad advice to people who don't understand the game well enough to know it's bad advice, not people making a conscious choice to enjoy different parts of the game.

4.) Other people are taking up table space that I could be using to play games.

There's a difference between taking up space legitimately (such as playing your own game) and wasting space or acting like the gaming table is your personal toy and you don't ever have to share it with anyone else.

Peregrine, stop making me agree with you. It doesn't feel right.

Ailaros seems like he is trying to be contrary for the sake of it. In my experience, whenever someone offers advice or complaints (for literally anything,) someone accuses them of whining.
A genuine summary of the article:

1. Stop treating all your customers like they don't understand the game. (If someone has been playing 40k for six years, don't suggest that they try running Hormagants inside a spore. They'll know that you are spouting idiocy.)
2. Don't ban things because they can't make you money.
3. Stop claiming that 'All armies are equal' when asked for advice on playing competitively. (If someone is talking about how bad pyrovores are... don't try to claim that they're good. You'll sound stupid.)
4. Manage your table space. Make sure everyone is courteous, everyone gets a turn, and that nobody decides to take up two of your three tables to play a 6000 point game while ten people are waiting.

Boring, overwritten article/blogpost. Good summation by Ailaros.

I haven't set foot in my local GW store since it moved into a tiny strip mall store front and became a single man operation with stupidly limited operating hours that mean it isn't even open at lunch time for a quick visit. That said one thing GW stores are good for is consistency. I like them when I travel. I was in Dublin, Ireland twice last year and found the local GW store. Immediately upon walking through the door I had a group of people who could speak my hobby language right off the bat. There is a lot to be said for that. I've done that traveling in other places as well. It is also an easy excuse to not be pressured into buying a bunch of stuff when you explain your ability to get things back home is limited to the space in your luggage on an International flight.

Skriker

I wonder if this was really worth writing an article about. Yes, it's a well known fact that a lot of GW employees try to push sales on you, because it's a shop and they are set targets. This also applies to why they are unlikely to say "x unit is rubbish, you shouldn't take it." They are taught to go for sales. In any retail job criticising the products you sell is a no-no. What if a manager heard them?

I agree that having a staff member approach me as soon as I enter a shop can be annoying. However, being an adult who knows what he does and doesn't want to spend his money on, I am able to politely say "no thank you" and carry on. Maybe the author should give that a try?

It's such a non-issue...I just honestly don't think this subject is worth blogging at length on, or going online to complain about. I'm afraid that for me the word "entitlement" springs to mind: the author seems to want to go to the shop to game, or to browse, without having any contact with the staff, but doesn't want to expend the miniscule amount of time and effort to turn to a persistent salesperson and say "no thank you, I know what I'm looking for" or "I'm just browsing, thanks."

The FW ban is kind of mystifying, but the article claims this is an instruction from upper management. In that case, what are the shop staff expected to do about it? They could probably safely waive the rule, but there is always the risk of mystery shoppers, visits from area managers, etc.

Well, the article doesn't even hit all the worst things my local GW's single (new trained) manager does, so I'm going with doesn't know how good he has it.

The problem is, the guy isn't that bad, he's just playing to the salesperson handbook, which is not a good thing for a hobby store owner to do to get sales.
The FLGS owner, he's far better, and while he's professional, he's also totally willing (assuming he has time, if he doesn't he'll say so, politely) to discuss tactics, unit choices, other gaming systems, recent TV programs... And he gets 90% of the trade the previous GW guy was getting, plus a bunch of people who used to order via the web (previous GW guy was good in the shop but a nasty bloke in his personal life, and that got around in a smaller city like we have here).

The fact the FLGS opened at the same time as the changeover has rather exacerbated things, but its really a case study on why GW need to fire whoever is responsible for the UK stores at nottingham HQ and bring in someone with a clue.

TLR: I talk about this a lot sometimes, but only because I'm invested in GW, and they've been driving miniature wargaming in the UK for years, as well as being important figures in the whole gaming sector. Now they're killing bits of it.

The article makes good points I suppose, and does avoid the melodramatic whining I see so much, I guess I've gotten lucky. My GW, still works hard to be a hobby center, and invite people in. They're still a bit pushy, but nothing too bad. They just held a conversion contest as well.

I've had conversations with the manager there about using LotR models for proxies, gotten compliments about my Scibor minis, etc. Things that so many people say they get harped on about. They also certainly allow Forge World, evidenced by their weekly Apocalypse nights.

It's a fairly small place, but has 4-5 tables or so. It's usually pretty easy to get a pick up game there, and if not, the manager is more than happy to play one with you and on numerous occasions has been there to help less experienced guys with strategy and tactics.

I guess it's the exception though. This guy keeps sales as his main focus, which it should be, he's in retail, but manages not to totally ignore the gaming and hobby side as well.

I typically go to a non-GW store up in Seattle. It's awesome, huge, and well awesome. It's also a 40 minute drive for me, maybe now I should start visiting this local GW more and appreciate what I have!

My one and only gripe with GW (and independent) stores is that the crew often answer rules questions on the fly while maybe never even having tried the game or faction. The times we've had big enough rules disagreements to ask someone else store staff has been wrong every time. 100%

 Ailaros wrote:
Umm... wow...

So, for those of you who can't be bothered, here are the author's main points.

1.) I'm a good enough 40k player that I don't need advice. Game store workers should stop giving me any.

2.) I can't bring my forgeworld cheese.

3.) I'm not open to other people saying good things about what I think is terrible. They should agree with me and go away.

4.) Other people are taking up table space that I could be using to play games.


There may be a lot of platitudinous window dressing on it, but the article is basically someone with a horrible attitude trying to blame other people because he doesn't get his way. I'd think that the players at the store he goes to should probably be glad that the author isn't playing there anymore.

Way to totally misunderstand the article in every way.

 -Loki- wrote:
Peregrine, stop making me agree with you. It doesn't feel right.

I know, right? Its becoming a more common thing for me too and it feels weird. I should call it a Peregrine Shift

Man i left early that day. i heard that the breakup was UGLY

For me, all these points were emphasized a couple of months ago. There used to be a manager there who was awesome: Knew the rules and admitted when he didn't, never tried to push things you didn't want (but if you were shopping around gave great advice,) really friendly, made sure the tables ran smoothly, had events maybe once a month, and had an escalation league running which was greater fun.
He vanished. Literally. On Sunday I was there, he was there. Closed on Monday and Tuesday. I came in on Wednesday, someone else was working there.
He's not near as good. His attempt at a league required buying products (70+ dollars worth) as a buy in, he makes bad rules calls, gives horrible tactical advice, and audibly groans/complains to us when my friends make references/jokes that he has heard before. (Not bad ones, just old ones.) He also avoids conversation or interactions when not pushing his wares.

After some investigation, I found the old manager on Facebook. Apparently he was fired without warning or explanation over the two days where the store wasn't open.

Is the blog writer in the US or the UK?

Gotta say, if I worked in a store and someone had the attitude "I've been doing it 2, 3, 5, or 10 times as long as you...", it wouldn't bother me if he walked out the store.

as for Forgeworld, last time we were in Bluewater, the guys were telling the nipper to fork out for the FW Biker boss... wouldn't be so bad if they didn't mean I should fork out for the FW Biker boss.

Is this new or from 20 years ago? I swear I herd this before. Guess what? GW is still hear 20 years later. Just someone else saying the same spiel.

'GW is making all these bad decisions, and will not be around for long" and here they are 20 years later, stronger than ever.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Is the blog writer in the US or the UK?

He is in the US. The GW replaced our manager with a very fresh recruit. he was making sure everyone "remembers" what we where going to buy and future projects and bla bla, i have to admit it was annoying but a week later he let off realizing each individual.

stover didnt really give the guy a chance. :/


Edit: the guy tried to explain why he didn't want forge world at the store saying it would confuse new players. its not explicitly banned but he is discouraging it.

The GW store near me has traits like those described in the story. It isn't quite that bad, but it's always my absolutely last resort when looking for a place to play. I haven't been back in months.

The sad part is that the previous manager violated every GW training rule, and was the best store manager ever. Supported tournaments, painting competitions, extra play space, snuck me the codex 3 to 4 days earlier than release, all around amazing. He quit for a better job and the new guy is almost straight line GW policy, so that $100 to $500 a month I was spending in the store? Not any more.

From the UK... I'll readily agree with most points and in particular this is so true:

"An apathetic veteran blackshirt who has given up on the company is a better salesman and manager of a brick and mortar GW store than a loyal and dedicated new hire who embraces the hobby from a blank slate. He has had his well poisoned by his training."

Though I've come across the apathetic old-timer mentioned, I am also lucky enough to have a GW blackshirt who *actually cares* and knows his customers, and so while he has to extend the party propaganda to an extent, he won't try and lead you astray if you blatantly know what you're doing - he'll let you get on with it. This is in direct contrast to the new guy who is all style and no substance, who has clearly been trained in "the art of sale" and whose false grin, honeyed words and practiced patter to other people I could see straight through before he'd even spoken to me.

I know this is kind of beating a dead horse.. but damn AilarosMade, you need to work on your comprehension skills.

As for the article, I couldn't agree with everything the author wrote about more, with the exception of the forgeworld issue (no problems with that here).

 Ailaros wrote:


2.) I can't bring my forgeworld cheese.

I know, my Elysian Vets are so cheese since they are 10pts. more expensive for deep strike and are the exact same stats as a standard IG Vet....seriously Forgeworld is not cheese, just because you dont like it does not mean you need to so blatantly exaggerate to get your opinion across, you have your opinion, but the vast majority of FW is not that bad and often underpowered when compared to alot of the cheese found in the standard codex. Sorry just hate ignorant statements like taht, back to the OP and his topic

The brick and mortar retail hobby shop lives and dies on the strength of its hobby community, but apparently, that's a memo you didn't get. Your retail staff isn't trained to cultivate and foster their shop community, and if they have any capability to community build at all, it wasn't something you did, it was something they brought in from their own hobby knowledge before they put on the blackshirt.

Isn't the policy GW has right now to have GW stores only start up people on the hobby , then shift them somewhere else , while still forcing people to buy some of their stuff their need from GW online store ? I think the dude lives in the 90s or something .

Basically we have a guy who does not like a competitive retailer driving sales using pretty standard sales technique. GW is a firm with shareholders and cannot act like a FLGS. The owner of their own store can have a target monthly figure to get through his tills in a month and be happy to adapt his tactics thus. He can probably afford to act as a kind of forum where gamers meet and chat, etc, making his living from the sales this generates. It is not a high-turnover business model, however, and will not generate enough profit for a firm like GW and their shareholders.

That's the long and short of it, GW will look at the overheads on each store such as staff costs (low as they pay very little), electricity, rent and so on. They will then have a target figure for turnover within that store which I guarantee is a lot higher than what an individual store owner is happy to live off. Therefore they adopt sales tactics. There's no point in complaining about a publicly quoted company maximising profit, they have a responsibility to their shareholders to do so. Best thing that could happen is GW is bought out by a wealthy enthusiast (not unlikely as they are only worth about £125m iirc). and new non-commercial tactics adopted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would also be pretty certain that GW spend an awful lot of time studying their market and adapting their practices to maximise profits. Sometimes this misfires, as with finecost, but sadly what this throws up will undoubtedly anger older players. Those who want the stores to be hangouts where they can play pretty much as they wish and hang around without being bothered are in the wrong environment. When I worked for GW they had done exhaustive studies on who spends what, it came up that after initial splurges most veteran gamers did not spend huge amounts, topping up now and again. Indeed they identified the 'regulars' as a problem, taking up space in the store, chatting to the staff, etc. To maximise profits regulars were to be driven off by being cold-shouldered. Constant fresh blood was the idea, a steady stream of new enthusiasts who would throw down big wedges of cash, then move on and be replaced, not a supply of old-timers who bought the odd figure now and again to top off their existing armies. It's not what veteran gamers want, but it is sensible commercial policy. I don't know about now but back then this instructions were backed up with mystery shoppers and snap inspections by regional managers which resulted in sackings if they were not happy.

 Super Ready wrote:
Though I've come across the apathetic old-timer mentioned, I am also lucky enough to have a GW blackshirt who *actually cares* and knows his customers, and so while he has to extend the party propaganda to an extent, he won't try and lead you astray if you blatantly know what you're doing - he'll let you get on with it. This is in direct contrast to the new guy who is all style and no substance, who has clearly been trained in "the art of sale" and whose false grin, honeyed words and practiced patter to other people I could see straight through before he'd even spoken to me.

Usually all it took for me in a GW store was discussing my history (been playing since Rogue Trader) the number of armies I have and have had (currently 11 armies built or in various states of progress, plus more than a dozen others built in the past only counting 40k and WFB) to get them to stop the hard sell and just chat for a bit and then leave me to my browsing. I haven't seen and done *everything*, but I've seen enough in the hobby to know what I like and don't like and no newly trained sales person is going to change that. On only one occasion I had to flat out tell the sales guy that his efforts and patter were giving me more impetus to walk out the door without buying anything and if he wanted to make a sale he'd shut up and leave me alone unless asked for directly for help.

Skriker