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 Azazelx wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

 gossipmeng wrote:
It may look like there is a lot of hate for GW online, but it is really just these issues being brought up repeatedly. It is always like this online for anything though - when people are mad they feel as though they need to be heard. Happy people are too busy gaming, painting, and building to be bothered logging in and making "I love GW" posts.

If you look at other company's forums pages, or forums focused on them, you'll find that that's not the case. Infinity forums have a fair amount of gushing and use of nice-natured emoticons..

In many ways, a "feature" of official forums is that as well as a degree of casual fans, they also attract the biggest fans, superfans and sycophants. They also attract a huge proportion of trolls. This either results in something like the old GW boards or the Blizzard forums, or a heavily-moderated or heavy-handed moderation where not only troll posts, but those with more than a smidgeon of negativity or criticism are deleted - like the McVey forums.

Or GWs facebook before they took it down after suing a no name author for using "space marine".

The GW store pages are just as bad, they delete everything with the slightest bit of negativity or even hinting at a release.

http://www.theindependentcharacters.com

We tend to take a very positive view of 40k and GW. Our community is obviously not as large as Dakka - but we have an active and fun forum.

Definitely BoLS, in terms of the comments section anyway.

 insaniak wrote:
Not one that makes people stop and wonder just what the hell they've been doing throwing money at this company for all these years, and deciding it's time to go fishing instead.

On the whole, I have found fishing to be a substantially better time, and much less expensive.

Every good comment about a GW product usually end with "But...".
"It is a great book, but a shame about the price".
Or, "I love the pose and loadout of the Captain model, but it's Finecast".

So, a lot of positive posts get seen as negative.

 Ouze wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Not one that makes people stop and wonder just what the hell they've been doing throwing money at this company for all these years, and deciding it's time to go fishing instead.

On the whole, I have found fishing to be a substantially better time, and much less expensive.

anytime where it is socially acceptable to crack a beer and sit around, I'm all for! too bad I can't stand the actual fishing aspect

 Aerethan wrote:
I think Dakka is far from "anti GW".

The site wouldn't likely exist if GW and it's games didn't.

The problem with ALL forums, is that complaints ring louder than compliments. And it only takes a vocal minority to make those complaints loud.

While true, it is also well known that for every customer that bangs the door as he leaves there are at least 2 more that left with out saying anything, and sadly (because i like the game) Fantasy´s and 40K´2 sales volumes decrease over the years (well before 8th and 6th respectively) back that up.

 Skinnereal wrote:
Every good comment about a GW product usually end with "But...".
"It is a great book, but a shame about the price".
Or, "I love the pose and loadout of the Captain model, but it's Finecast".

So, a lot of positive posts get seen as negative.

A critique of the product even in those terms in not negative par say.

The negativity as suggested by the OP's more pervasive and generalised than that. A discussion about a product doesn't necessitate additional Off Topic points about store or company policies but often will.

I'm guessing if the OP could find such a site he might expect to not have to see such Off Topic issues cloud/bore otherwise relevant discourse.

Following the "models have been gak lately":

It is art, so it can be hit or miss = not for everyone.

The comment on the cultists of being mirrors with different layering touched on something for me.

Many hand crafted models would sometimes borrow bits and pieces of other models but since it takes some time manually doing this, considerable thought is applied and it looks great.

With CAD it is easy to mirror, attach objects and array details. It would take a fraction of the time and a fraction of the thought. I wonder if it is an artist or a tech at the helm of the model design.

Could it be that the prior character we liked is getting engineered out? Have John Blanche review and suggest touch-ups before release to mold making?

To get with the topic: again, we are looking at how to make things better not just spout off, I DO think it rather positive. To be dissatisfied with a model is the main drive for conversions so I would hate to be happy with everything!

I'll agree that some of the CAD-designed models are poor, and that it often stand out on monsters and organic, furred creatures. But then again, Trish Morrison has always had mixed results when sculpting monsters in the traditional manner.

See, I'd also say that anyone who thought the multi-part marines released with 40k 3rd edition were good, then they have no business calling the more recent (and about-to-release) sets "gak".

 Azazelx wrote:

See, I'd also say that anyone who thought the multi-part marines released with 40k 3rd edition were good, then they have no business calling the more recent (and about-to-release) sets "gak".

The fact that a set was good 15 years ago doesn't automatically make that same set re-released with extra skulls added on good by today's standards.

The industry has moved in leaps and bounds in the last decade. The common aesthetic has moved toward more life-like scaling and away from the 'heroic' proportions used by companies in the 90s... But GW is a little stuck, because their ranges include a mix of decades-old stuff, old stuff with new details added, and new stuff that has to still fit with the old stuff. New models are hampered by that 20 year old aesthetic, while the rest of the industry is leaving them behind, in model design, game design and material development.

GW are the market leaders still, but only because of inertia. The days of their miniatures being the best on the market are well behind us.

 insaniak wrote:
The industry has moved in leaps and bounds in the last decade. The common aesthetic has moved toward more life-like scaling and away from the 'heroic' proportions used by companies in the 90s... But GW is a little stuck, because their ranges include a mix of decades-old stuff, old stuff with new details added, and new stuff that has to still fit with the old stuff. New models are hampered by that 20 year old aesthetic, while the rest of the industry is leaving them behind, in model design, game design and material development.

Which is specially galling since with the capitalization they have which their competitors by and large lack, they could easily and (comparatively) swiftly announce a transition to such and effect it, and they have apparently chosen to coast instead, by and large.

Neckbeard rage can fill a sub-forum before positivity has even registered an account. Plenty of people in the real world like Games Workshop, no need to get down over it.

xruslanx wrote:
Neckbeard rage can fill a sub-forum before positivity has even registered an account.

I had to exalt this.

xruslanx wrote:
Neckbeard rage can fill a sub-forum before positivity has even registered an account. Plenty of people in the real world like Games Workshop, no need to get down over it.

Neckbeard rage?

I'm sorry, I'm going to have to wipe the blood from my nose again. Reducing all criticisim to simple rage or hate is a silly immature way to show that you haven't really got a counter argument to the criticisims aimed at GW. As does the neckbeard part.

 Imposter101 wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
Neckbeard rage can fill a sub-forum before positivity has even registered an account. Plenty of people in the real world like Games Workshop, no need to get down over it.

Neckbeard rage?

I'm sorry, I'm going to have to wipe the blood from my nose again. Reducing all criticisim to simple rage or hate is a silly immature way to show that you haven't really got a counter argument to the criticisims aimed at GW. As does the neckbeard part.

How people can be so angry over plastic toy soldiers costing £5 more than they think they should, I do not know. There's a difference between a criticism being legitimate, and being important. Your criticisms may all be "legitimate" but realistically, the internal mechanisms of a company you buy for are not *important*.

xruslanx wrote:

 Imposter101 wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
Neckbeard rage can fill a sub-forum before positivity has even registered an account. Plenty of people in the real world like Games Workshop, no need to get down over it.

Neckbeard rage?

I'm sorry, I'm going to have to wipe the blood from my nose again. Reducing all criticisim to simple rage or hate is a silly immature way to show that you haven't really got a counter argument to the criticisims aimed at GW. As does the neckbeard part.

How people can be so angry over plastic toy soldiers costing £5 more than they think they should, I do not know.

Doubt it's really 'anger'. Presumably because they make comparisons with other models, of a similar quality and use.

There's a difference between a criticism being legitimate, and being important. Your criticisms may all be "legitimate" but realistically, the internal mechanisms of a company you buy for are not *important*.

People are allowed to express their opinions, whether they have an effect or they do not, but simply reducing it down to 'anger and hate', isn't really a way to counter it when it's simply not true with a majority of cases.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xruslanx wrote:

 Imposter101 wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
Neckbeard rage can fill a sub-forum before positivity has even registered an account. Plenty of people in the real world like Games Workshop, no need to get down over it.

Neckbeard rage?

I'm sorry, I'm going to have to wipe the blood from my nose again. Reducing all criticisim to simple rage or hate is a silly immature way to show that you haven't really got a counter argument to the criticisims aimed at GW. As does the neckbeard part.

How people can be so angry over plastic toy soldiers costing £5 more than they think they should, I do not know.

Doubt it's really 'anger'. Presumably because they make comparisons with other models, of a similar quality and use.

There's a difference between a criticism being legitimate, and being important. Your criticisms may all be "legitimate" but realistically, the internal mechanisms of a company you buy for are not *important*.

People are allowed to express their opinions, whether they have an effect or they do not, but simply reducing it down to 'anger and hate', isn't really a way to counter it when it's simply not true with a majority of cases.

The fact that expressing an opinion in an overly pompous and neckbeardy way doesn't strike you as odd? I could write an essay on the syntax of anti-GW rage posts, all across the internet. They broadly share the same sentence structure and casual, slightly formal tone.

I'm only observing patterns, don't get bombastic with righteous fury just because you don't like them.

 Ouze wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Not one that makes people stop and wonder just what the hell they've been doing throwing money at this company for all these years, and deciding it's time to go fishing instead.

On the whole, I have found fishing to be a substantially better time, and much less expensive.

If you prefer fishing that's fine. But cheaper? REALLY??? Much like any hobby fishing can get very expensive very quickly.

xruslanx wrote:
The fact that expressing an opinion in an overly pompous and neckbeardy way doesn't strike you as odd? I could write an essay on the syntax of anti-GW rage posts, all across the internet. They broadly share the same sentence structure and casual, slightly formal tone.

I'm only observing patterns, don't get bombastic with righteous fury just because you don't like them.

You seem to simply group all the patterns into one single group, them simply reduce the argument to hating GW for no exact reason. I also liked the Righteous Fury bit, it proves my point once again.

 Imposter101 wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
The fact that expressing an opinion in an overly pompous and neckbeardy way doesn't strike you as odd? I could write an essay on the syntax of anti-GW rage posts, all across the internet. They broadly share the same sentence structure and casual, slightly formal tone.

I'm only observing patterns, don't get bombastic with righteous fury just because you don't like them.

You seem to simply group all the patterns into one single group, them simply reduce the argument to hating GW for no exact reason. I also liked the Righteous Fury bit, it proves my point once again.

With so many people taking such a strong dislike to GW, it is only logical to group them all together. This is easy to prove with two simply questions:

a. Why do people dislike Subway?

b.Why do people dislike Tesco?

Question a clearly involves a much smaller group of people than question b, and therefore will have a greater diversity of opinions behind it. Wheras b) can be answered simply (i.e. they're a corporate behemouth that's destroying the high street/everything), a) will be more diverse in answers (don't like the bread, don't like the cheese, don't like the smell, think it's too expensive, don't like the customer service etc). Similarly, the reason there is so much butt-hurt at GW is simple - people don't like the prices. That's all there is to it really.

If you detatch the neckbeard rage and look at GW as an actual customer, there's no real reason to get angry over them. If you talk to actual people, there is no great groundswell of rage, and if you go to a GW they sell rather nice models, not steaming piles of gak.

 Ugavine wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Not one that makes people stop and wonder just what the hell they've been doing throwing money at this company for all these years, and deciding it's time to go fishing instead.

On the whole, I have found fishing to be a substantially better time, and much less expensive.

If you prefer fishing that's fine. But cheaper? REALLY??? Much like any hobby fishing can get very expensive very quickly.

It can, or you can just get a cane pole, some yarn, and a needle. Pair of pliers to bend the needle and voila! Just go digging for worms by the bank, and your set.

On topic, I find most of dakkadakka to be fairly positive outside of the news and rumors, and the discussions forums. You just have to get away from the highly critical crowd.

The internet is a place to complain. If there was a forum for people who had won the megamillions jackpot, all they would do is complain about the money.

No one would every say, "I am so thankful for the lottery".

Oh no! People all criticizing the same things! It's almost like a problem exists.

And GW has made sure no fansites exist. Shut down their own forums and sued many others.

There are complaints about what GW does where people who have ZERO experience in running a bussiness can plainly see where GW is alienating customers simply because of the example virtually every other company we know sets. The 'one-click no discount at all and some are even more expensive then the seperate parts making up the bundle' deals are confusing and insulting because real world experience teaches us that this is not the definition of a bundle deal.

There are more examples there of what are essentially underhanded bussiness practices. A company like GW SHOULD be living off a positive image with their customers, but they have been without competition for a long time and they are seemingly growing complacent in keeping their customer base in favor of making quick sales to a crowd that will evaporate as quickly as it materialized.

I do love GW, but I also see there are plenty of problems with their bussiness model that are essentially making GW into an Ourobouros that is eating into its own market share to stay in the black for the short term. People don't need to hate GW to see these problems, its quite the opposite. Most are genuinely concerned taht one day Gw will eat itself al the way from its tail up to its own head and go under.

The thing is, there are plenty of store managers and people that work for GW that are still working their asses off for our hobby. Someone asked before for examples of what GW did right. I'll point at the little things that snuck in under the radar. The snap fit core troop expansion kits that go for what, 10 bucks and let you fill out troop slots quickly are a great thing we have now. all the hard cover books in full colour may cost a premium. But I bought my second Imperial guard codex last week because i wore it to the bone lugging it around in my case that I am pretty sure will not happen to the hard cover book.

The tiny little gamers edition hard cover rule book was made entirely because GW actually listened to what we as gamers want. 6th edition, sure crons are stupidly good die to the flyer rules, but all in all its my opinion that we never had this much intercodex balance in the game before. There are a few units people will bring up till the end of times as examples of how broken the new rules are (Wave serpents, Helldrakes....) but these are all tremendous outliers. Tell me when have we ever seen so many diverse lists of what is deemed tournament level competitive in a single edition before?

In all honesty the last half year i have seen GW make a lot of strides forward over what i consider the deepest they sunk in the end of 5th edition. Not all the changes they have made so far are unilaterally bad. There is a bit of hope to be found to.

NickOnwezen wrote:
The tiny little gamers edition hard cover rule book was made entirely because GW actually listened to what we as gamers want.

I disagree. This is an example of GW's failure to understand their market. We wanted the option to buy the starter set rulebook separately, not an expensive and bulky hardcover book. But instead of providing the product people want to buy GW produced a new book that is worse than the cheaper (at ebay prices) starter rulebook for the sole purpose of being able to sell it at a higher price.

 BlapBlapBlap wrote:
GW website. They're huge fans.

^this.

also, GW used to have forums... used to.

xruslanx wrote:
If you detatch the neckbeard rage and look at GW as an actual customer, there's no real reason to get angry over them.

And if people were actually getting angry, that might be a valid point.

The thing is, the vast majority of criticism isn't born from anger. There's this weird idea online that people who are complaining about something must be all worked up about it, when in reality all they are doing is stating an opinion.

I'm not angry about the current direction of 40K. Just disappointed with various aspects of the game currently, and rather puzzled by the direction that GW corporate have decided to go..

If you talk to actual people, there is no great groundswell of rage, and if you go to a GW they sell rather nice models, not steaming piles of gak.

The people on forums are actual people. But you are correct - there is no groundswell of rage. That's something that you have invented.

What there is is a growing dissatisfaction with GW's business practices and with the standard of their releases.And that's not just online. Tournaments in many areas are seeing much reduced attendance, and more and more gaming clubs are talking about players switching to non-GW systems.

NickOnwezen wrote:
There are complaints about what GW does where people who have ZERO experience in running a bussiness can plainly see where GW is alienating customers simply because of the example virtually every other company we know sets. The 'one-click no discount at all and some are even more expensive then the seperate parts making up the bundle' deals are confusing and insulting because real world experience teaches us that this is not the definition of a bundle deal.

There are more examples there of what are essentially underhanded bussiness practices. A company like GW SHOULD be living off a positive image with their customers, but they have been without competition for a long time and they are seemingly growing complacent in keeping their customer base in favor of making quick sales to a crowd that will evaporate as quickly as it materialized.

But i think statements like this are part of the issue the OP described: going from a reasonable view, that GW like to make money, and are perhaps too short-term in their thinking, to saying they're underhand, some kind of corporate Beelzebub.

There a consensus among some people here that they know how the company should be run. That's a reasonable, subjective view (there are, in corporate history, a couple of occasions where fans have taken over a business and it's prospered, eg Lomo, altho you would certainly be scared by their price increases). But it's not the only view.Yet many people here are convinced it's the only reality, that GW is failing, they read laudatory stories in the press and convince themselves they're negative, then if anyone disagrees they get all upset, call them white knights and fanboys. They simply don't understand that this is not the only view that rational, well-meaning people can have.

So to return to the original topic a little, here's the thing:

You want a more positive forum? The answer is simple: Be Positive.

You won't create a more positive forum by telling those with negative opinions that they should just shut up and go find another hobby, or by belittling their opinion and passing it off as 'neckbeard rage' or 'internet hysteria'. That just gets people's backs up and gets them even more firmly entrenched in their positions.

A forum's tone is set by the people in it, and by the posts they make. A forum doesn't just make itself. It is born from the efforts and opinions of those who choose to be a part of the community.

So if you want a place to discuss your hobby in a positive atmosphere, you need to create that positive atmosphere. Post batreps, post pictures of your models, talk about scenario ideas, point out those things that make you happy to participate in the hobby.

And accept that not everyone will share your opinion. Fighting negativity with negativity, regardless of what physics may tell you, doesn't create a positive environment. It creates an environment where everyone is bickering with everyone else for having the temerity to hold a differing opinion.

Be a positive influence, participate in positive threads, and remind everyone about the positive in their hobby. You can't make the negative go away... but you can drown it out.