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Hi all, I have a small query about tournaments, having never been in one myself.

I'm aware that it's quite alright if you're a few points underneath the points limit, but what about above the points limit? Example: running a 1753 point army in a 1750 point game. Is this a definite 'no' everywhere? Would some tournaments be lenient and some not? Is it perfectly fine everywhere?

Furthermore, what is the general consensus during friendly (casual) games? Do you mind if people go over the limit in friendly games? Do many people share these opinions?

Thanks all, I know I'm asking some very general and broad questions, but any answers would be greatly appreciated.

The point limit you've agreed with your opponent is the UPPER limit of what you can spend on your army. You shouldn't go above it, even by 1 point.
In friendly games we just stick to that, and to my limited knowledge it's a no-no in tournaments too

A limit is a limit. If you're over the limit then you take things out of your list until you are at or below the limit. If you knowingly play a list that is over the limit (without telling your opponent and asking to increase the limit to allow your new list) then you are cheating.

In tournaments it's an absolute no-no.

In friendly games, it's up to your opponent. At my club we're fairly liberal. If it happens, it happens, and the other guy is given the option of chucking in a quick upgrade, just don't push your luck...

BunnyCommando wrote:
In tournaments it's an absolute no-no.
In friendly games, it's up to your opponent. At my club we're fairly liberal. If it happens, it happens, and the other guy is given the option of chucking in a quick upgrade, just don't push your luck...

Seconding all of this. If you've gone over the points by a little, it's only fair your opponent gets to do the same (ignoring the usual WYSIWYG while we're at it).

BunnyCommando wrote:
In friendly games, it's up to your opponent. At my club we're fairly liberal. If it happens, it happens, and the other guy is given the option of chucking in a quick upgrade, just don't push your luck...

Why isn't the over-points player required to drop a quick upgrade? Why should the person with a legal list be the one to change theirs, usually without any real benefit (for example, a melta bomb on a unit that will never get to charge anything)?

And IMO friendly or competitive is irrelevant. The limit is a limit.

As what others have said, keep under the points. Tournaments are an absolute, no wiggle room. Friendly games are friendly, but sometimes the extra 5 points can do drastic things. There is a huge difference between a list built to take advantage of every point, and one with just a melta bomb tacked on at the end. Sometimes you are just over the breakpoint, and need to make compromises that cascade down the list. If I did that for my list, you can do it for yours.

Now if we are all sitting around making lists at the same time, and you say "Mind playing at 1753 instead?" while I'm still working stuff out, that's a lot better.

 Peregrine wrote:

BunnyCommando wrote:
In friendly games, it's up to your opponent. At my club we're fairly liberal. If it happens, it happens, and the other guy is given the option of chucking in a quick upgrade, just don't push your luck...

Why isn't the over-points player required to drop a quick upgrade? Why should the person with a legal list be the one to change theirs, usually without any real benefit (for example, a melta bomb on a unit that will never get to charge anything)?

And IMO friendly or competitive is irrelevant. The limit is a limit.

Everyone I've ever played a friendly game against does not care if you're over or under by as much as 10-15 points even (usually it ends up being 1-3 points) and we don't even bother with adding/subtracting an upgrade and just play as is. Why? Because it's just a game and it's better to have a game than sit around looking at your pretty little army men on a shelf.

Rorschach9 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

BunnyCommando wrote:
In friendly games, it's up to your opponent. At my club we're fairly liberal. If it happens, it happens, and the other guy is given the option of chucking in a quick upgrade, just don't push your luck...

Why isn't the over-points player required to drop a quick upgrade? Why should the person with a legal list be the one to change theirs, usually without any real benefit (for example, a melta bomb on a unit that will never get to charge anything)?

And IMO friendly or competitive is irrelevant. The limit is a limit.

Everyone I've ever played a friendly game against does not care if you're over or under by as much as 10-15 points even (usually it ends up being 1-3 points) and we don't even bother with adding/subtracting an upgrade and just play as is. Why? Because it's just a game and it's better to have a game than sit around looking at your pretty little army men on a shelf.

What is everyday in one place is unthinkable in another. Wiggle-room on points is one thing you need to check with the folks at your FLGS. While I'll generally shrug and not worry about 1-4 points over, 5 points is a break point for me. Surly there is something you can cut at that level, 10-15 points is right out.

Also my opponent makes a huge difference. New players, kids, and people I know are there for a relaxed, fun game get more slack. Known rules lawyers, WAACs and TFGs get held to a much higher standard, as do my own lists. I also cut more slack for WYSWYG well painted armies.

In a friendly game I really don't care if you go over it.

Tournaments = no no

Friendly game = dependent on opponent

I try to build my lists as though I was going to a tourney, so even if I'm one point over I go back to the drawing board. However, I could totally see going a point over and wouldn't mind someone else doing the same.

Something I discussed with friends is the idea that if your initial list is over the limit, and your opponent's list is not, you allow your opponent to go over the limit by 5X the amount you went over it by.

For example, if we were playing 1500 and my list was 1503, my opponent would be allowed up to 1515 points. It allows them to put an actual upgrade on the unit, a power sword, or a couple special weapons, versus having 3 points, which is pretty much worthless.

It creates an interesting balance of incentives. Both players become leery of going over because you significantly increase your opponent's advantage (for example, if you're over by 10 points, your opponent gets 50 points to work with!), but alternatively, let's say I build a list that has perfect synergy and covers most blind spots, but it costs 5 points over the limit, I might not mind letting my opponent have that extra 25 points. I tend to take a lot of "naked" units, without lots of upgrades, so hypothetically, that five points could be the difference between a ten man devastator unit split in two, or a 9-man unit that is less efficient on the tabletop, so if it means I can combat squad and fire at two targets, and have two targets for enemies, instead of one, I probably wouldn't mind letting my opponent put 25 points more into their list.

Of course, you have to have opponents who agree to that setup, and that's probably the hardest thing to have. It could probably work well if a store implemented it as a policy, but I don't know of any that has done so.

0 points over is acceptable.

When two people agree upon a points limit, both should have enough respect to make their list equal to or less than the agreed upon limit.

1 point over is breaking the agreement, and disrespecting your opponent.

If you are over, it should be no big deal to drop something to make your list come in at or under the agreed upon points limit, and this should be done well before you are about to deploy.

I make lists that come to the points limit without going over. Then I tweak them and re-make them to shuffle things around without going over the limit that we have agreed upon.

If I am expected to make a list at or below the limit we have agreed upon, then I ask my opponent to adhere to the agreement as well. It is just common courtesy to do so.

Insaniak has hit it on the head as well.

 insaniak wrote:
The whole *ahem* point of the limit is that it forces a limit on just how much stuff can be crammed into your army. If he really wants that LC on his razorback, then he needs to make slack elsewhere.

Going over the points limit means you dont want to make decisions when list building. List building is about decisions in my eyes. Those 3 points can make the difference of a squad having a power fist or a power sword ... you would have had to drop something else to fit that fist in.

Long story short:
Absolute no - if you are not able to create a list with the agreed points limit you should rethink the whole list and not make your opponent have to rethink his own.

I've never understood why its so hard for people to keep lists at or under the point level agreed upon.

If you want to play 1515 point game, then agree to have a 1515 point game. If you tell me to make a 1500 point list I take that to mean that we are capped at 1500.

That being said, if I came across someone in a casual game I wouldn't quit the game, but they probably wouldn't be my first choice of opponent for future games.

I like to think of it this way. If you are over the limit by 10 points (all hypothetical BTW), are you getting a bonus 10 extra points? Or a deathstar super killy unit that made you go over by 10 points.

In my friend group if someone goes over we usually:

A. Make fun of them (not really we are just a bunch of a-holes)
B. The other player gets to add those extra points

WE have a relaxed group because we play casual. But for tournaments I would advise not doing this.

In my area the judges would force you to lose a piece of wargear or one model from a unit. it would be your choice of what to do.

On a different note, in friendly matches I could care less about 10 points just ask first. 15 points is a no no

My limit is about 4 points. Sometimes the math just doesn't add up to a good even number. With an 10pt model being 4 over or 6 under I have no problem letting folks go over by 4.

But once you get up to 5 points there are generally things you could cut to still fit in that last model.

But that's for friendly games, tourneys the limit is the limit, if the math doesn't add up smooth, you gotta go under.

In friendly games I don't mind (Half my friends fit in 50-80 extra points, and then think up that they had extra upgrades midgame... kinda WAAC but whatever).
Most people in friendly games wouldnt mind if you are like 2/3 points over, provided that you ask them first(Finding out later some people treat it as though you cheated)

In tournaments it's a huge no.

I, like others, treat limits as hard limits. I made my choices to build my list, why should my opponent not make those same choices?

We normally stay within limit. Occasionally go slightly over. If I do its usually in d.e. All agreed before

If we agree to a points limit, I'll stick to it and expect my opponent to do the same, even in casual games with people I know well. I have yet to see a list that couldn't cut one upgrade to shave off the last few points, and if three points extra isn't a big deal, then it shouldn't be a big deal to lose a five point upgrade to get under the limit.

So...The rulebook lied.

Pg 108 Size of the game section.

Second Paragraph.

3rd Sentence.

"Indeed, to get around this, most players are happy to let their opponent go a few points over the agreed total-after all, a few points here or there are unlikely to upset the battle's course."

It does state previous to this that most armies tend to be a shade smaller than the agreed limit, because it is impossible to actually spend all the points.

I have had several armies go the way of the Dodo, because what I wanted in it put me 1 whole point over, and removing something would make me 9 points under. I would give a couple points of leeway over. But going over by the cost of a whole model is not acceptable, to me.

IMO it's better to go even 30 points under than a single point over. Just drop something. If you can drop 500 points to play a smaller game, surely you can drop 3+ points to play the agreed upon game? And if you still end up a few points short, or even several points short, so what? It's an upper limit, not a lower one.

Wow, thanks for all the responses.

The general consensus seems to be:
Tournaments = NO
Friendly Games = Check first

I'll keep that in mind, thanks everybody.

For tournaments its a big no no.

For causal its' generally dependant on your opponent. Like if you're 1 point over and it's an akward adjustment most people are ok.

I'm more lenient/more likely to ask if someone says 'I know we arranged 1500pts but I only have 1000 with me' In that case Dropping to 1005 might be easier and make for a quicker start than trying to redesign my army list. Most people are cool with it but just ask.

It's never acceptable in tourneys, in my experience. In friendly games, it's all up to your opponent. I personally don't give a hoot.

It's called a limit for a reason. I'm always at it or under, and I'd want my opponent to do the same.

Which is more fair? 1 point over, or 9 points under? Many armies end up with this problem.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Which is more fair? 1 point over, or 9 points under? Many armies end up with this problem.

9 points under, because that follows the rules of the game and is not cheating.

I think if your going to take the time to make a list ahead of time, then there isn't really a good reason to go over even in casual play. If you and your buddies are making something on the spot then i think there's room for consideration, especially if one of you wants to try something out for the first time.

A few points don't seem like much to you, but they might have made a huge difference to your opponent who scraped a list because it was over points.