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Puscifer wrote:
Quick question...

I bought the codex (thankfully not on the iPad) and I'm trying to see if you can take three bikes and an attack bike as a single troops choice for a mounted CM or Captain.

Is that legal? Does the Attack Bike counts as two models?

Why would it?

Puscifer wrote:
Quick question...

I bought the codex (thankfully not on the iPad) and I'm trying to see if you can take three bikes and an attack bike as a single troops choice for a mounted CM or Captain.

Is that legal? Does the Attack Bike counts as two models?

Counts as 1 model

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
Quick question...

I bought the codex (thankfully not on the iPad) and I'm trying to see if you can take three bikes and an attack bike as a single troops choice for a mounted CM or Captain.

Is that legal? Does the Attack Bike counts as two models?

Why would it?

Someone in either this thread or another said they found the rule in the Dex stating that the Attack Bike counted as two models.

Just wanted confirmation as I found nothing on this.

Puscifer wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
Quick question...

I bought the codex (thankfully not on the iPad) and I'm trying to see if you can take three bikes and an attack bike as a single troops choice for a mounted CM or Captain.

Is that legal? Does the Attack Bike counts as two models?

Why would it?

Someone in either this thread or another said they found the rule in the Dex stating that the Attack Bike counted as two models.

Just wanted confirmation as I found nothing on this.

Only for combat squads, same as the 5th edition codex.

Puscifer wrote:
Quick question...

I bought the codex (thankfully not on the iPad) and I'm trying to see if you can take three bikes and an attack bike as a single troops choice for a mounted CM or Captain.

Is that legal? Does the Attack Bike counts as two models?

Under combat squads, it talks about bike squads. It doesn't explicitly say they count as two, just that a full squad is 8+1, and it splits down into 5 and 3+1 bike squads. I don't see anywhere else that implies otherwise. I think for the 5 models, you need 5 normal bikes, or 4+1. Either way, you get the 5 models you need rolling along.

Unless they FAQ to add something, you can't have attack or scout bikes as troops. Just Bike Squads.

The only case where you count heads instead of models is for splitting your bike unit into combat squads. He probably meant that.

Ahhh thanks guys.

Might just go with 4 + the AB to make it five.

White Scars and Bike lists in general are going to be very powerful this edition.

It says "Bike Squads of at least five models" can be taken if you have a captain or chapter maser on a bike.

So yes. An Attack Bike can be added to any Bike Squad.

Kangodo wrote:
Nevermind, they can be used as CCW, they aren't classified as Melee though.

Nocturnus wrote:
I am wondering about the Legion of the Damned's special/heavy weapon costs. I had read they were reduced. Can you confirm if this is true? Also, can you give points cost, using whatever code you like
Thanks in advance. Cheers.

Same cost as everyone else, you just take weapons from the list. And it are Heavy Weapons only! No special Weapons.
One may take a flamer, melta or plasma for some points.

And no, I won't give you points.
Nor will I tell you to download the scanned codex, it's perfect quality.
Because that's not allowed.

Um, okay. I have no idea what you are trying to say. But, it's fine. I received my codex today and yes, I bought it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, what is everyone on about regarding special weapons on bikes? Maybe I've misunderstood something here, but in my codex it clearly states 2 bikers may take special weapons.

 marv335 wrote:
Full size (6) unit of dev Centurions can certainly lay on the hurt.
18-30 shots from Grav Cannons will ruin someones day (plus the 18/36 shots from the hurricane bolters), not cheap at coming on for 500pts, but certainly destructive.
Also DevCents can take a land raider as a dedicated transport, as can AssCents.

Cents are Very Bulky, so you can fit 5 in an LRC or 4 in an LRR or Stormraven.

I can see two ways of using Assault Centurions:

A: Loading 4 into a Stormraven along with an Ironclad. Zoom Stormraven onto board, drop centurions and Ironclad behind it. Since they have MtC, they auto-pass the dangerous terrain test.

B: Take a squad of five in an LRC. Replace their assault launchers with hurricane bolters. When they get where they need to go, disembark, open fire, and then use the assault launchers on the land raider for frag grenades.

Nocturnus wrote:

Also, what is everyone on about regarding special weapons on bikes? Maybe I've misunderstood something here, but in my codex it clearly states 2 bikers may take special weapons.

Yes, but look at the special weapons list. You need to trade out a boltgun or CCW to get a special weapon, and bikers have neither. So they have access to a list of weapons which they cannot select.....twice!

Regarding the special weapons on the bikes. It's clearly RAI that you can have special weapons but due to a proof reading error it looks like you can't.

We had the same problem with the current Ork dex in which it looked like we couldn't take a PK on a nob, the most common load out for him.

If anybody gives you flack over this don't play them. I bet you GW address this quickly in a FAQ just like the ork nob issue.

 Carnage43 wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:

Also, what is everyone on about regarding special weapons on bikes? Maybe I've misunderstood something here, but in my codex it clearly states 2 bikers may take special weapons.

Yes, but look at the special weapons list. You need to trade out a boltgun or CCW to get a special weapon, and bikers have neither. So they have access to a list of weapons which they cannot select.....twice!

Seriously? If someone ever tried to tell me I couldn't take the special weapons, I'd tell them to get bent and never play them again. I hate rules lawyers. It doesn't take even average intelligence to know what is meant by the army list entry. Some people have too much time on their hands

Nocturnus wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:

Also, what is everyone on about regarding special weapons on bikes? Maybe I've misunderstood something here, but in my codex it clearly states 2 bikers may take special weapons.

Yes, but look at the special weapons list. You need to trade out a boltgun or CCW to get a special weapon, and bikers have neither. So they have access to a list of weapons which they cannot select.....twice!

Seriously? If someone ever tried to tell me I couldn't take the special weapons, I'd tell them to get bent and never play them again. I hate rules lawyers. It doesn't take even average intelligence to know what is meant by the army list entry. Some people have too much time on their hands

It's how the rules are written. Sure, I imagine they MEANT to allow the bikes to take special weapons, but that's not what it says. It's no more legal to take special weapons on bikes than it is to count your librarian as having 75 wounds....both are made up rules not supported by the book at the moment.

You can play it however you want, but tournaments/competitve play/pick up games against strangers will not support anything but the rules as they are written.

It will likely be fixed in a matter of weeks though.

 Carnage43 wrote:
You can play it however you want, but tournaments/competitve play/pick up games against strangers will not support anything but the rules as they are written.

It will likely be fixed in a matter of weeks though.

As a tournament organizer, albeit on a small scale, anyone who tries to claim Bikes can't get special weapons will get laughed out of any of my events. It's the "vehicles can't take invulnerable saves" or "Terminators don't wear Terminator armor" or "you can't fire a flamer" of the current Codex.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:
You can play it however you want, but tournaments/competitve play/pick up games against strangers will not support anything but the rules as they are written.

It will likely be fixed in a matter of weeks though.

As a tournament organizer, albeit on a small scale, anyone who tries to claim Bikes can't get special weapons will get laughed out of any of my events. It's the "vehicles can't take invulnerable saves" or "Terminators don't wear Terminator armor" or "you can't fire a flamer" of the current Codex.

Exactly. Well put. It's ridiculous. Your comparing it to 75 wounds on a Librarian is not even in the same galaxy. It's not "illegal". It clearly states they may take a special weapon. In other parts of the list, it indicates "may replace with". But, whatever. I am glad I don't have to deal with crap like this in my local meta. I am not looking for a fight. We will just have to agree to disagree

 Kingsley wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:
You can play it however you want, but tournaments/competitve play/pick up games against strangers will not support anything but the rules as they are written.

It will likely be fixed in a matter of weeks though.

As a tournament organizer, albeit on a small scale, anyone who tries to claim Bikes can't get special weapons will get laughed out of any of my events. It's the "vehicles can't take invulnerable saves" or "Terminators don't wear Terminator armor" or "you can't fire a flamer" of the current Codex.

I get it, I really really do. I even agree with you, and will be playing with the bikes allowed to take the special weapons. If you are a tournament organizer as you claim though, you of all people must realize what a slippery slope the RAW vs RAI argument is. I've seen more than a few bits of drama where the organizer changes something and doesn't tell everyone about it and all of a sudden it's sprung on an opponent mid-game and then everything blows up. It's best to take a pure "RAW, no exceptions" approach IMO, than it is to start house ruling stuff and changing things on people even if the occasional oddity like this might crop up.

Couldn't an argument be made that Bolt Pistols are Melee weapons (since they count as Close Combat Weapons, which have type: Melee), so they could be replaced?


A more interesting rules loophole is the fact that Command Squads can be mounted on bikes...and then can take a Razorback transport. They can't get in it, but you can give yourself a mobile gun platform to help crack enemy tanks.

nobody wrote:
Couldn't an argument be made that Bolt Pistols are Melee weapons (since they count as Close Combat Weapons, which have type: Melee), so they could be replaced?


A more interesting rules loophole is the fact that Command Squads can be mounted on bikes...and then can take a Razorback transport. They can't get in it, but you can give yourself a mobile gun platform to help crack enemy tanks.

Sadly, this seems to be a hastily thrown together book with little to no proofreading. On another note, I find it funny that GW still hates Dark Angels. With the exception of Deathwing lists, this book seems to do everything better. Oh, other than Divination Librarians.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nocturnus wrote:

nobody wrote:
Couldn't an argument be made that Bolt Pistols are Melee weapons (since they count as Close Combat Weapons, which have type: Melee), so they could be replaced?


A more interesting rules loophole is the fact that Command Squads can be mounted on bikes...and then can take a Razorback transport. They can't get in it, but you can give yourself a mobile gun platform to help crack enemy tanks.

Sadly, this seems to be a hastily thrown together book with little to no proofreading. I guess GW will have to change the picture for the Command Squad, as you can no longer take a plasma gun. On another note, I find it funny that GW still hates Dark Angels. With the exception of Deathwing lists, this book seems to do everything better. Oh, other than Divination Librarians.

nobody wrote:
Couldn't an argument be made that Bolt Pistols are Melee weapons (since they count as Close Combat Weapons, which have type: Melee), so they could be replaced?


A more interesting rules loophole is the fact that Command Squads can be mounted on bikes...and then can take a Razorback transport. They can't get in it, but you can give yourself a mobile gun platform to help crack enemy tanks.

It certainly is a close combat weapon, but it is not a melee weapon. Those are defined on pg. 60-62 of the BRB while the bolt pistol is defined under ranged weapons/close combat weapons.

I'm under belief it is an oversight and they essentially omitted the boltgun by mistake. It will likely get FAQ'd, and balance will be restored to the galaxy.

 NickTheButcher wrote:

nobody wrote:
Couldn't an argument be made that Bolt Pistols are Melee weapons (since they count as Close Combat Weapons, which have type: Melee), so they could be replaced?


A more interesting rules loophole is the fact that Command Squads can be mounted on bikes...and then can take a Razorback transport. They can't get in it, but you can give yourself a mobile gun platform to help crack enemy tanks.

It certainly is a close combat weapon, but it is not a melee weapon. Those are defined on pg. 60-62 of the BRB while the bolt pistol is defined under ranged weapons/close combat weapons.

I'm under belief it is an oversight and they essentially omitted the boltgun by mistake. It will likely get FAQ'd, and balance will be restored to the galaxy.

Pg 51 defines Close Combat Weapons, and specifies that they are type: Melee.

nobody wrote:

 NickTheButcher wrote:

nobody wrote:
Couldn't an argument be made that Bolt Pistols are Melee weapons (since they count as Close Combat Weapons, which have type: Melee), so they could be replaced?


A more interesting rules loophole is the fact that Command Squads can be mounted on bikes...and then can take a Razorback transport. They can't get in it, but you can give yourself a mobile gun platform to help crack enemy tanks.

It certainly is a close combat weapon, but it is not a melee weapon. Those are defined on pg. 60-62 of the BRB while the bolt pistol is defined under ranged weapons/close combat weapons.

I'm under belief it is an oversight and they essentially omitted the boltgun by mistake. It will likely get FAQ'd, and balance will be restored to the galaxy.

Pg 51 defines Close Combat Weapons, and specifies that they are type: Melee.

Thank you for pointing that out. Had someone else mentioned that in another thread there would have been less of an argument on the bike options. I never noticed the paragraph where it says to use the profile for close combat weapon and that the type essentially changes to melee.

The question is though, it says the pistol can be used as a close combat weapon. Since were dealing with making a list and swapping gear option, can the pistol be used as a close combat weapon?

It's a stretch, but I can always see someone trying to argue it.

Either way, it really needs an FAQ

 Carnage43 wrote:
I get it, I really really do. I even agree with you, and will be playing with the bikes allowed to take the special weapons. If you are a tournament organizer as you claim though, you of all people must realize what a slippery slope the RAW vs RAI argument is. I've seen more than a few bits of drama where the organizer changes something and doesn't tell everyone about it and all of a sudden it's sprung on an opponent mid-game and then everything blows up. It's best to take a pure "RAW, no exceptions" approach IMO, than it is to start house ruling stuff and changing things on people even if the occasional oddity like this might crop up.

My rule of thumb is that if an option or rule was clearly intended to be functional by the rules, it works even if the rules don't strictly do so. This applies to vehicle invulnerable saves, options that "can't be taken" despite being listed, and rules that technically don't function. For instance, some models, like Wraithknights, cannot shoot by strict RAW, because line of sight is drawn from the model's eyes-- and Wraithknights don't have any eyes. However, we all know what that rule is supposed to mean.

Interesting, it looks like Black Templar Crusader squads can still take a heavy and special at five man strong.

Actually a bike army using the Black Templar traits might be interesting.

Vanguard with dual grav pistols?

nobody wrote:


A more interesting rules loophole is the fact that Command Squads can be mounted on bikes...and then can take a Razorback transport. They can't get in it, but you can give yourself a mobile gun platform to help crack enemy tanks.

Wolf Guard can take Bikes, Jetpacks or Terminator armour without affecting their ability to select a dedicated transport. So there is precedent.

 NickTheButcher wrote:

nobody wrote:
Couldn't an argument be made that Bolt Pistols are Melee weapons (since they count as Close Combat Weapons, which have type: Melee), so they could be replaced?


A more interesting rules loophole is the fact that Command Squads can be mounted on bikes...and then can take a Razorback transport. They can't get in it, but you can give yourself a mobile gun platform to help crack enemy tanks.

It certainly is a close combat weapon, but it is not a melee weapon. Those are defined on pg. 60-62 of the BRB while the bolt pistol is defined under ranged weapons/close combat weapons.

I'm under belief it is an oversight and they essentially omitted the boltgun by mistake. It will likely get FAQ'd, and balance will be restored to the galaxy.

What they more likely omitted was the ability to swap the bolt pistol for a close combat weapon, like the DA bikers have. Then you swap your bolt pistol for a CCW, then swap that for a special weapon, and boom, problem solved.

Or all they needed to do was give them a points cost in the listing, like Terminators have.

It's all poor editing. Now how do all those people feel about their ridiculously overpriced and error filled Limited Edition dust jackets?

I don't know if this has been asked yet, but can you choose traits from different chapters? So say one from Black Templars, and one from Salamanders? Or do both the traits you pick have to be from the same chapter?

You don't "pick" traits.
You pick a Chapter and then get all the traits from that Chapter.

Thats what meant, you pick via chapter and not single traits like in the 4ed book then? So have they gotten rid of the special character special rules or are they still there, and can they be used along side the chapter specific traits and has the point cost for vulnerable Dreadnoughts changed?

So, I may be missing something here, but it looks like the Grav Cannon is only available to Centurion Devastators if I'm reading this correctly. If so, that makes the "Salvo" weapon type rather...pointless doesn't it?