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Apparently any negative post about the new codex is frowned upon. So these are merely some points that I noticed about various units in the new codex. Feel free to post your own observations or counter points, but please do not just say "it just came out QQ", especially if you are a Tau player .

On Centurions (aka meganobz):
"Basically one dead Riptide or Wraithknight a turn if you're in range."

250pts base for 3 models that are slow & purposeful, 24" range, and their ONLY option for alternate movement or deployment is a 250pt landraider. So your talking 500 pts for them to be useful. The grav cannons would be GREAT if there were any way to get them there for a reasonable price. As it is you are just politely asking your opponent to have his riptides or wave serpents hold still while you plod forward into range.

"Army wide hit and run is amazing. Most of the chapter tactics are at least good, and really, FREE, Army Wide USRs is super good."

None of the chapter tactics are as good as being able to choose to fail a ld check & then auto rally.

Tiberius is great, but not with centurions. Not much will make Centurions useable at their points cost. Possibly all bolters with IF chap tactics to put out volume fire, rerolling 1's with tank hunter to kill light vehicles, possibly.

"BT can put down 120 T4 bodies at less than 1500 points"

Anything that buffs CC is mostly a waste at this point. Power armor spam is a decent tactic but I don't think it can compete with taudar. Besides DA do it better with the Dakkabanner. BT have nothing to help them get into combat through all that overwatch. Maybe a triple LRC list & try to line up all your units to charge on the same turn. But that will be VERY difficult to do.

TF are great & even better than before, Grav weapons on bikes are also good. These & Tigurius are about all I like in the dex.

"Centurians with the las cannon is like a cheap dread that can't get dinged by auto cannons (but get wasted by plasma"
Note that 3 centurions with las is 250 base, +30 for missiles, +10 for split fire on 1 model. So 290 for 3x T5 models, 6 wounds total. They have absolutely nothing to keep from getting tarpitted in CC, no running, no overwatch, no sweeping advance.

So far we've got:
Bike w/grav (not so good against horde armies)
Tigurius
TFC


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
Okay without playing a game with it, I'll also say that marines are going to lose the exact same kinds of battles to Tau, Eldar, Daemons and CSM. Because there's not enough in this book to combat the current meta.


I've played 2 games so far. 1 against a deldar list that was a combo of venom/WS spam with a wraith knight & jet seer council, another against a tau/tau list with riptides & a far/sun bomb. Don't think I need to go through the specifics because I'm sure everyone is familiar with the inevitable outcome.

I have a game on monday against a tau/dar list which I'm sure will be oodles of fun!

Well, thats why you shouldn't run Centurions with only Grav Weapons. I certainly don't plan on spamming Grav weapons. I'm looking at twin-linked lascannons and missile launchers. Now that's fire power.

If I need to kill a giant MC I'll put grav weapons on something that can get into range. Or I'll use Lascannons and Melta weapons, they worked fine before and they'll work fine now.


The book is a good one from what little I've seen personally, and if what half of what I've heard is true its amazing. Just different.

14 point tac marines are awesome!

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, thats why you shouldn't run Centurions with only Grav Weapons. I certainly don't plan on spamming Grav weapons. I'm looking at twin-linked lascannons and missile launchers. Now that's fire power.

If I need to kill a giant MC I'll put grav weapons on something that can get into range. Or I'll use Lascannons and Melta weapons, they worked fine before and they'll work fine now.


The book is a good one from what little I've seen personally, and if what half of what I've heard is true its amazing. Just different.

14 point tac marines are awesome!

So 3x Cents with las/missile is 280(290 w/split fire) base for 6 wounds total T5 & a 2+. Add 90pts for additional models & pray they don't get stuck in CC. I'm not sold. Bikes are definitely the way to go for grav. Just too bad grav is such short range & no go against weak units.

I would gladly walk those Centurions up the board.

Why?

They have a 36" threat range and can withstand a ton of firepower. They don't need the Land Raider. Oh and Tigurius is sick with Centurions. Divination giving rerolls to hit with that many dice works wonders.

As for the LC Centurions... If you have them tarpitted or they are in the place to be tarpitted, you deserve to lose. They should be in the back shooting down the board.

You should seriously play this book out before jumping to conclusions. Tau and Eldar are not unbeatable, you just have to use the right tools in the right place.

I've had the book as long as you and I see plenty of potential.

If they get stuck in combat its my fault. Things with a 48" range should be easy to keep from getting stuck in.

I'm not feeling the hype over Gravity weapons though. Its just a weapon with a very narrow specialization(low armor save models) and little effectiveness against vehicles. I'll take a couple, but I'm not going to spam it. Compared to the option for a TL-lascannon and missile launcher it sucks against vehicles and those same weapons can kill a Wraithknight just as dead, and from 24" farther way to boot.

I'm just annoyed I can't pick up the codex yet due to $$$ constraints.



and hey, I just beat Eldar in a tournament with freaking footslogging GK Terminators. Yes they had all the cheesy loadouts and everything. If I can do it with footsloggin GK terminators, the SM codex can do it with what they just got.

Are you talking 36" for the Grav cannons? If so, how? A couple squads of fire warriors will take them down in a couple turns. They are only slightly more durable than a terminator squad, maybe less when you take into account the lack of invul. What do you think will happen to them when 3 crisis suits with plasma drop in on them?

"If they get stuck in combat its my fault. Things with a 48" range should be easy to keep from getting stuck in."
Agreed but we're talking about 3 tl-las shots & 3 krak missile shots for 290, regardless of whether they get tarpitted or not.

On a side note: how about that awesome reclusiam command squad box set eh?

Puscifer wrote:
I would gladly walk those Centurions up the board.

Why?

They have a 36" threat range and can withstand a ton of firepower. They don't need the Land Raider. Oh and Tigurius is sick with Centurions. Divination giving rerolls to hit with that many dice works wonders.

As for the LC Centurions... If you have them tarpitted or they are in the place to be tarpitted, you deserve to lose. They should be in the back shooting down the board.

You should seriously play this book out before jumping to conclusions. Tau and Eldar are not unbeatable, you just have to use the right tools in the right place.

I've had the book as long as you and I see plenty of potential.

I don't know I'd walk them up the board (at least against Tau or Eldar) -- Eldar have enough to wipe a whole unit fairly easily (D-Scythes, TL Suncannons, etc...). But I agree with the rest of what you said. Proper placement and the limitless amount of combos from various chapter tactics and HQ's will effect how they are played.

I'm still liking the idea of taking them with the IH CT and placing them on a Skyshield Landing pad giving them a 2+/3+(cover)/4++/6+ FNP and IWND on the Sergeant. Give them Lascannons/ML and they could really be a threat.

Centurions are okay, but with their new price cuts Devs and bikes can do more or less everything they can for cheaper and faster in the case of bikes...

The best part about the codex to me is the chapter tactics though they may not seem like much at first but they make a difference.

 Fulcrum wrote:
Are you talking 36" for the Grav cannons? If so, how? A couple squads of fire warriors will take them down in a couple turns. They are only slightly more durable than a terminator squad, maybe less when you take into account the lack of invul. What do you think will happen to them when 3 crisis suits with plasma drop in on them?

"If they get stuck in combat its my fault. Things with a 48" range should be easy to keep from getting stuck in."
Agreed but we're talking about 3 tl-las shots & 3 krak missile shots for 290, regardless of whether they get tarpitted or not.

On a side note: how about that awesome reclusiam command squad box set eh?

3 lascannons and 3 krak missile shots is pretty good when it comes on T5 2+ armor 2 wound bodies. And Split Fire is way awesome. I can fire one of those lascannons and krak missiles at something else if I need to. Pop 2 transports a turn, slam 2 MCs at a time, etc...

290 points is a steal. especially considering that a similarly equipped amount of Devestators cost more and don't have twin-linked.

Lack of Invuln isn't a big deal because they'll be sitting behind an Aegis line. Or on top of a Sky Shield for a 4+ invuln(and other stuff can be up there too)

And nobody in their right mind deep strikes anything without some sort of way to mitigate the scatter risks, in which case they're dropping way more than 290 points down.

One of the problems goes back to the fact that the ML sucks hard. So, of course, the hurricane bolter can only be changed out to a ML!!! WTF??

Auto rally and Hit & Run is pretty burly.

But I think alot of people are overlooking the Iron Hands getting It Will Not Die on Characters and Vehicles- the bonus on repair rolls for the techmarines is a cherry on top. Self healing vehicles and characters? O.o

But I really dont see Cents getting within 24" of a highly mobile MC like a Riptide very often. Theres better ways to sink the points that will do the job(and cost less $$) Theyre just too many points in one basket that doesnt have an Inv save(unless I missed something...) Its like they wanted to be Obliterators or Broadsides- but by the time you load them to be an equivalent, they cost a good bit more than either of those and arent as durable. I think the basic bolter loadout will be great for horde work-but past that the cost spikes. And they're big lumps of Grav-bait in thier own right.

I am impressed with the sneaky scout improvements- they got cheaper. And the Storm speeder is now only available as a dedicated transport for scouts(no waasting a FA slot) To go a step further- the Storm has a Cerebus launcher- which throws a large template 18" and causes Blind. And its pretty cheap itself. It still only carries 5 guys- but, Combat squads.

You wont see scout armies- but one or two squads for objective camping/grabbing with a storm wouldnt be a surprise.

Thats another thing- everyone but Centurions and Honor/Command squads can Combat Squad. That adds alot of verstatility in terms of both army list design and deployment for the various missions.

Also worth nting you can ally Space mariens with- space marines! As long as the Chapter tactics differ. So, mix and match accordingly

 NickTheButcher wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
I would gladly walk those Centurions up the board.

Why?

They have a 36" threat range and can withstand a ton of firepower. They don't need the Land Raider. Oh and Tigurius is sick with Centurions. Divination giving rerolls to hit with that many dice works wonders.

As for the LC Centurions... If you have them tarpitted or they are in the place to be tarpitted, you deserve to lose. They should be in the back shooting down the board.

You should seriously play this book out before jumping to conclusions. Tau and Eldar are not unbeatable, you just have to use the right tools in the right place.

I've had the book as long as you and I see plenty of potential.

I don't know I'd walk them up the board (at least against Tau or Eldar) -- Eldar have enough to wipe a whole unit fairly easily (D-Scythes, TL Suncannons, etc...). But I agree with the rest of what you said. Proper placement and the limitless amount of combos from various chapter tactics and HQ's will effect how they are played.

I'm still liking the idea of taking them with the IH CT and placing them on a Skyshield Landing pad giving them a 2+/3+(cover)/4++/6+ FNP and IWND on the Sergeant. Give them Lascannons/ML and they could really be a threat.

I'm proxying a Marine list vs Eldar tomorrow, I'll let you know how it goes.

D scythes are too short a range for me to worry tbh. The Grav Cents threat range should counter that. The suncannon though is something that bothers me. I don't have the codex to hand, so I don't know it's stats.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Fulcrum wrote:
Are you talking 36" for the Grav cannons? If so, how? A couple squads of fire warriors will take them down in a couple turns. They are only slightly more durable than a terminator squad, maybe less when you take into account the lack of invul. What do you think will happen to them when 3 crisis suits with plasma drop in on them?

"If they get stuck in combat its my fault. Things with a 48" range should be easy to keep from getting stuck in."
Agreed but we're talking about 3 tl-las shots & 3 krak missile shots for 290, regardless of whether they get tarpitted or not.

On a side note: how about that awesome reclusiam command squad box set eh?

3 lascannons and 3 krak missile shots is pretty good when it comes on T5 2+ armor 2 wound bodies. And Split Fire is way awesome. I can fire one of those lascannons and krak missiles at something else if I need to. Pop 2 transports a turn, slam 2 MCs at a time, etc...

290 points is a steal. especially considering that a similarly equipped amount of Devestators cost more and don't have twin-linked.

Lack of Invuln isn't a big deal because they'll be sitting behind an Aegis line. Or on top of a Sky Shield for a 4+ invuln(and other stuff can be up there too)

And nobody in their right mind deep strikes anything without some sort of way to mitigate the scatter risks, in which case they're dropping way more than 290 points down.

For just ten more points at 300 even, you can get two units of Devs with 4 Lascannons each. 8 Lascannons will always beat out 3, even if twin-linked. You can still put them in an aegis for cover. Now granted, Heldrakes will ruin their day, but well, you have the Quad gun, which you can have the Sgt man with a Signum (BS5). And they're gonna come in no later than turn 2, which means you should still be able to casue some damage before they're in any trouble.

Query, do you have more than 5 dudes in each of those Dev squads? because if you don't you're going to immediately start losing fire power once you start taking casualties.

Martel732 wrote:
One of the problems goes back to the fact that the ML sucks hard. So, of course, the hurricane bolter can only be changed out to a ML!!! WTF??

ML don't suck. They're a pretty good weapon.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Centurions are okay, but with their new price cuts Devs and bikes can do more or less everything they can for cheaper and faster in the case of bikes...

This is true as well, but on the other side of the coin, Devastators will die a lot more easily than Centurions. Bikes are a different story, but not everyone wants to play them and they don't bring as much heavy firepower as devs or Centurions.

What makes it legal to ally space marines with space marines?

Martel732 wrote:
What makes it legal to ally space marines with space marines?

Pg 77 of the new dex...

 Fulcrum wrote:
Are you talking 36" for the Grav cannons? If so, how? A couple squads of fire warriors will take them down in a couple turns. They are only slightly more durable than a terminator squad, maybe less when you take into account the lack of invul. What do you think will happen to them when 3 crisis suits with plasma drop in on them?

"If they get stuck in combat its my fault. Things with a 48" range should be easy to keep from getting stuck in."
Agreed but we're talking about 3 tl-las shots & 3 krak missile shots for 290, regardless of whether they get tarpitted or not.

On a side note: how about that awesome reclusiam command squad box set eh?

You move the Cents 6", then fire 24" for a total of 30". My bad - been awake for 70+ hours.

I can agree to a point regarding the immense cost of the LC/ML Cents, but for that price you're getting a more accurate and survivable squad against some of the heinous units that can point click erase a normal Dev unit.

Your Plasma Suit DS is a valid tactic, but it won't kill three Cents in one turn of shooting. You might kill two, leaving one. That one guy is getting five shots, so he'll hit with three and probably wound with three... That's one dead Crisis suit. If the Crisis team is in range for assault (unlikely if it's played properly) that Centurion will rip through the remaining two suits. It's quite equal and remarkably close.

A lascannon/missile Cent would have killed two suits with his shooting instead of just one. both cause ID!

 Grey Templar wrote:
Query, do you have more than 5 dudes in each of those Dev squads? because if you don't you're going to immediately start losing fire power once you start taking casualties.

Martel732 wrote:
One of the problems goes back to the fact that the ML sucks hard. So, of course, the hurricane bolter can only be changed out to a ML!!! WTF??

ML don't suck. They're a pretty good weapon.

I stopped paying attention when he said ML suck.

Firstly I highly disagree that 290 for 3 tl las & 3 ml is a good deal in any platform.

 Mistress of minis wrote:
Auto rally and Hit & Run is pretty burly.

But I think alot of people are overlooking the Iron Hands getting It Will Not Die on Characters and Vehicles- the bonus on repair rolls for the techmarines is a cherry on top. Self healing vehicles and characters? O.o

But I really dont see Cents getting within 24" of a highly mobile MC like a Riptide very often. Theres better ways to sink the points that will do the job(and cost less $$) Theyre just too many points in one basket that doesnt have an Inv save(unless I missed something...) Its like they wanted to be Obliterators or Broadsides- but by the time you load them to be an equivalent, they cost a good bit more than either of those and arent as durable. I think the basic bolter loadout will be great for horde work-but past that the cost spikes. And they're big lumps of Grav-bait in thier own right.

I am impressed with the sneaky scout improvements- they got cheaper. And the Storm speeder is now only available as a dedicated transport for scouts(no waasting a FA slot) To go a step further- the Storm has a Cerebus launcher- which throws a large template 18" and causes Blind. And its pretty cheap itself. It still only carries 5 guys- but, Combat squads.

You wont see scout armies- but one or two squads for objective camping/grabbing with a storm wouldnt be a surprise.

Thats another thing- everyone but Centurions and Honor/Command squads can Combat Squad. That adds alot of verstatility in terms of both army list design and deployment for the various missions.

Also worth nting you can ally Space mariens with- space marines! As long as the Chapter tactics differ. So, mix and match accordingly

FYI Hit & run isn't a failed morale check so there's really no interaction with atsknf, you always act normally the next turn. The costs of everything is in line with DA, just no magic flags or divination(or good warlord traits, ug). I believe everything has always had combat squads, though it has been nerfed slightly in that you now must declare you are combat squading before the game, not when you jump out of your transport.

I do like the scouts+storm as a cheap, fast troop. I wish they would add like a generic veteran squad or something as a 3rd troop option. Maybe allow them to take 2 specials or something. The price increase on the basic razorback(ala DA) really stinks.

 Grey Templar wrote:
A lascannon/missile Cent would have killed two suits with his shooting instead of just one. both cause ID!

Was using Grav Cannons... Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
One of the problems goes back to the fact that the ML sucks hard. So, of course, the hurricane bolter can only be changed out to a ML!!! WTF??

ML don't suck. They're a pretty good weapon.

Yes, yes they do, they are in fact the marine version of Grenade Launchers.

Puscifer wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
A lascannon/missile Cent would have killed two suits with his shooting instead of just one. both cause ID!

Was using Grav Cannons... Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I know. I was just saying a Las/missile guy would have killed more than the Grav cannon loadout.

Puscifer wrote:

 Fulcrum wrote:
Are you talking 36" for the Grav cannons? If so, how? A couple squads of fire warriors will take them down in a couple turns. They are only slightly more durable than a terminator squad, maybe less when you take into account the lack of invul. What do you think will happen to them when 3 crisis suits with plasma drop in on them?

"If they get stuck in combat its my fault. Things with a 48" range should be easy to keep from getting stuck in."
Agreed but we're talking about 3 tl-las shots & 3 krak missile shots for 290, regardless of whether they get tarpitted or not.

On a side note: how about that awesome reclusiam command squad box set eh?

You move the Cents 6", then fire 24" for a total of 30". My bad - been awake for 70+ hours.

I can agree to a point regarding the immense cost of the LC/ML Cents, but for that price you're getting a more accurate and survivable squad against some of the heinous units that can point click erase a normal Dev unit.

Your Plasma Suit DS is a valid tactic, but it won't kill three Cents in one turn of shooting. You might kill two, leaving one. That one guy is getting five shots, so he'll hit with three and probably wound with three... That's one dead Crisis suit. If the Crisis team is in range for assault (unlikely if it's played properly) that Centurion will rip through the remaining two suits. It's quite equal and remarkably close.

Ok if you have grav weapons, they are just going to stay out of range, not drop in, & you will never be able to catch them due to the assault jump. If you have lc/ml, they will drop in & kill 2 possible, or 3 if they are in rf range.

A 5 man dev squad w/4 las is 150 in DA I think, +65 for the Libby. So 215 for 4x tl lc shot + libby, put them in a ruin for 4+ cover. Granted you only have 1 ablative wound at that price, but you can add more. Now your +1 las shot & -2 ml shots is a trade off .

Either way I think the only way cents are useable is stock with bolters & IF chap tacs. That being said dev squads are not any good either really for their points.

 Krellnus wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
One of the problems goes back to the fact that the ML sucks hard. So, of course, the hurricane bolter can only be changed out to a ML!!! WTF??

ML don't suck. They're a pretty good weapon.

Yes, yes they do, they are in fact the marine version of Grenade Launchers.

Sure, you just keep telling yourself that.

Puscifer wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Query, do you have more than 5 dudes in each of those Dev squads? because if you don't you're going to immediately start losing fire power once you start taking casualties.

Martel732 wrote:
One of the problems goes back to the fact that the ML sucks hard. So, of course, the hurricane bolter can only be changed out to a ML!!! WTF??

ML don't suck. They're a pretty good weapon.

I stopped paying attention when he said ML suck.

Your loss. Because they do.

Puscifer wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Query, do you have more than 5 dudes in each of those Dev squads? because if you don't you're going to immediately start losing fire power once you start taking casualties.

Martel732 wrote:
One of the problems goes back to the fact that the ML sucks hard. So, of course, the hurricane bolter can only be changed out to a ML!!! WTF??

ML don't suck. They're a pretty good weapon.

I stopped paying attention when he said ML suck.

As did I.

Okay geniuses. Have I imagined MLs accomplishing absolutely nothing? What exactly are the good for other than IDing T4 models with 3+ armor?