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So I'm curious what people have spotted to be good competitive use for points within the new space marine codex. I'm currently going through building my list and one of the units that caught my eye (with vulkan as warlord) is legion of the damned.
In terms of RAW fitting them with melta, combi melta, multi melta for 155 points you get a rerollable deep strike, 3+ invuln, ignores enemy cover saves and with vulkan can reroll missed hits with melta weaponry which is rather nice (imo)

While I'd wanted to run them even before I saw the rules mind I was wondering if anyone else has seen some competitiveness in other units or what people think of them. Looking through the tanks and such as well the hunter looks quite interesting
but I'm not sure if I want them over preds, gunship and centurions.



Also Assault Centurians in a landraider seems quite interesting too (of course running melta and flamers for me with vulkan)

And the bike squadron running melta's as well with a multi-melta attack bike.

(Yeah Im pretty big on getting those rerolls from vulkan xD)

Competitive?

Too early to discern at this point.

Some things are outright nasty like Bike Squadron Troops Choices with Grav Weapons and TFC.

Some things seem ok on paper, but are ok like Centurion Devastators.

Some things are just bad, like Assault Cents.

I think White Scars with Grav-guns will be the new big thing on tournaments
Combined with some AA they seem very strong and cheap for the punching power they bring.

I also think Centurion's won't be that good, they are really expensive if you ask me.

ATM, this is what I'd go with for best unit in each slot...

HQ
CM on Bike with the EW Shield, AA and Thunder Hammer.
Librarian or Tigurius if UM. Or Khan if WS.

Elites
The ever fantastic TH/SS Terminators.
Sternguard.
LOTD.

Troops
Bike Squadrons with Grav Weapons and a HB AB.
0-1 Tactical Squad to take home objective.
0-1 Scout Squad to either take a midfield objective or home objective.

Fast Attack
Stormtalon.
Attack Bikes.
Land Speeders.

Heavy Support
Hunter.
Stormraven.
TFC.
and depending on Meta... Grav Cents.

Puscifer wrote:
Competitive?

Too early to discern at this point.

Some things are outright nasty like Bike Squadron Troops Choices with Grav Weapons and TFC.

Some things seem ok on paper, but are ok like Centurion Devastators.

Some things are just bad, like Assault Cents.

You wouldn't take assault cents? They look kinda cool, but why wouldn't you take them? They can steal a ride in a land raider xD


I don't see grav guns doing overly well in competition though, its all well and good while your playing space marines all day but if you come up against orcs, dark eldar, eldar, imperial guard they are going to be harder to get wounds on then bolt guns.

 Sasa0mg wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
Competitive?

Too early to discern at this point.

Some things are outright nasty like Bike Squadron Troops Choices with Grav Weapons and TFC.

Some things seem ok on paper, but are ok like Centurion Devastators.

Some things are just bad, like Assault Cents.

You wouldn't take assault cents? They look kinda cool, but why wouldn't you take them? They can steal a ride in a land raider xD


I don't see grav guns doing overly well in competition though, its all well and good while your playing space marines all day but if you come up against orcs, dark eldar, eldar, imperial guard they are going to be harder to get wounds on then bolt guns.

Orks still have stuff like Meganobz, IG have plenty of vehicles and the Grav weapons are really effective against Wave Serpents (due to not giving a cover save and not caring about the Serpent Shield), Wraithknights, and Wraithguard.

Remember that you still have TL-bolters on your bikes and a million attacks and wounds on the charge with a higher Initiative than Orks.

Grav guns still require 6's to pen, against vehicles lascannons and such would still be more efficient from what I can tell. Granted I'll agree the potential to wreck tanks, ignore cover saves to wargear is nice and the ease of which to damage heavily armored targets the salvo and AP are its only real redeeming factors as I think other variations of weapons can be equally as effective.

 Sasa0mg wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
Competitive?

Too early to discern at this point.

Some things are outright nasty like Bike Squadron Troops Choices with Grav Weapons and TFC.

Some things seem ok on paper, but are ok like Centurion Devastators.

Some things are just bad, like Assault Cents.

You wouldn't take assault cents? They look kinda cool, but why wouldn't you take them? They can steal a ride in a land raider xD


I don't see grav guns doing overly well in competition though, its all well and good while your playing space marines all day but if you come up against orcs, dark eldar, eldar, imperial guard they are going to be harder to get wounds on then bolt guns.

The AssCents share a codex with TH/SS Terminators.

They have an invulnerable save, are cheaper and you get more attacks in an equally pointed unit. Terminators can DS if needed and don't NEED a transport.

AssCents, lack an inv save, are slow as all hell, NEED a transport and are too expensive.

I would take the Assault Terminators over AssCents everytime.

I agree with you to a point on Grav Weapons, but they are filth against three out of four top armies - CSM, Tau and Eldar will hate Grav Weapons. Tyranids too will suffer a similar fate as just two Grav Rifles on a bike can kill a Carnifex or Hive Tyrant in one phase. Oh is that a Swarmlord Deathstar? Nope... It's dead from two-three bike squads with Grav Weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sasa0mg wrote:
Grav guns still require 6's to pen, against vehicles lascannons and such would still be more efficient from what I can tell. Granted I'll agree the potential to wreck tanks, ignore cover saves to wargear is nice and the ease of which to damage heavily armored targets the salvo and AP are its only real redeeming factors as I think other variations of weapons can be equally as effective.

Yup... This is why I think the Plasma Gun will be just as good as a mid ground weapon.

 Sasa0mg wrote:
Grav guns still require 6's to pen, against vehicles lascannons and such would still be more efficient from what I can tell. Granted I'll agree the potential to wreck tanks, ignore cover saves to wargear is nice and the ease of which to damage heavily armored targets the salvo and AP are its only real redeeming factors as I think other variations of weapons can be equally as effective.

On a 6 they Immobilize and remove an HP from the Wave Serpent, no Cover Saves or Serpent Shield to deal with. A second 6 and the Wave Serpent is Wrecked. On a cheap deliver platform they are outstanding, ie Bikes.

And soon we'll have to face the Orks!
Immobilizing their trucks is a kick in the balls

I think White Scars with Grav-guns will be the new big thing on tournaments
Combined with some AA they seem very strong and cheap for the punching power they bring.

Possibly, but ONLY if Heldrakes completely disappear from the scene. That's one of the few things holding back Ravenwing lists and I don't see it being any different for the Scars except that they don't have access to PFGs so they are a little more vulnerable. You could ally them to DA's, but I've been looking at that already and it gets points restrictive quick.


As for competitive units - They are expensive, but I can see some good uses for the Devastator Cents. 15 Grav Cannon shots in a round will wreck an awful lot of stuff and then you have the hurricane bolters for when something like Kroot get too close. I wish they were pointed a little differently, but that's just a nitpick.

Who cares about Helldrakes now?
At 1850 I can take:
Khan
a command squad /w Grav's and Apothecary
4 full Troops of bikers with Grav-guns, a Melta-bike and Combi-grav Sgt
3 Space Marine hunters

And I still have 200 points left for anything I want, like a droppod with 5 combi-weaponed Sternguard.
Or Scouts in a LSS or with an ADL and QG.

My problem with Dev-Centurions is that 5 CCS-bikes don't take a heavy slot, have the same amount of shots and are more durable/manoeuvrable for less points.

 Sasa0mg wrote:
Grav guns still require 6's to pen, against vehicles lascannons and such would still be more efficient from what I can tell. Granted I'll agree the potential to wreck tanks, ignore cover saves to wargear is nice and the ease of which to damage heavily armored targets the salvo and AP are its only real redeeming factors as I think other variations of weapons can be equally as effective.

you only need 2 6's to wreck a wave serpent with a Grav weapon. the first 6 will do immobilised + 1 hull point, the 2nd 6 will do 2 hullpoints (as an already immboilised vehicle instead suffers and addition hullpoint)

grav spam seems to be an effective counter to Serpentspam/Riptidespam.

 Ninjacommando wrote:

 Sasa0mg wrote:
Grav guns still require 6's to pen, against vehicles lascannons and such would still be more efficient from what I can tell. Granted I'll agree the potential to wreck tanks, ignore cover saves to wargear is nice and the ease of which to damage heavily armored targets the salvo and AP are its only real redeeming factors as I think other variations of weapons can be equally as effective.

you only need 2 6's to wreck a wave serpent with a Grav weapon. the first 6 will do immobilised + 1 hull point, the 2nd 6 will do 2 hullpoints (as an already immboilised vehicle instead suffers and addition hullpoint)

grav spam seems to be an effective counter to Serpentspam/Riptidespam.

Also note that the grav weapons don't cause penetrating or glancing hits - RAW no cover saves on vehicles, right?

 Ninjacommando wrote:

grav spam seems to be an effective counter to Serpentspam/Riptidespam.

It is effective, actually. I've seen it in action yesterday and it was brutal. Or at least it was brutal when the SM player took the first turn. It failed miserably both times when the opponent took the first turn.

And according those battles I would say the following units going to be competitive:
- Relic Master
- Honor Guard w/Drop Pod
- ML2 Librarian and/or Tigurius (quasi-compulsory selection)
- Sternguard (yellow point sink alert though)
- Bikes w/gravs
- Hunters
- Thunderfire Cannons
- Stormravens
- Grav Shiturions (red point sink alert)

The Iron Hands Land Raider Achilles looks like it's going to be a PITA, especially when paired with Techmarines/MotFs.

Puscifer wrote:

 Sasa0mg wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
Competitive?

Too early to discern at this point.

Some things are outright nasty like Bike Squadron Troops Choices with Grav Weapons and TFC.

Some things seem ok on paper, but are ok like Centurion Devastators.

Some things are just bad, like Assault Cents.

You wouldn't take assault cents? They look kinda cool, but why wouldn't you take them? They can steal a ride in a land raider xD


I don't see grav guns doing overly well in competition though, its all well and good while your playing space marines all day but if you come up against orcs, dark eldar, eldar, imperial guard they are going to be harder to get wounds on then bolt guns.

you like how they look??? i wont judge......

they are also so expensive, and assult termies are better, and more survivable.

Assault termies wound for wound are more expensive then a unit of Cents, the only greater survivability to me is the 4+invuln in combat from the shield, though the 5+invuln is there outside of combat I dont rate th at too highly.

they always have a 3+ invul, from comabt, and range.

What am I missing with Hunters that makes them competitive? On paper they look fun but bad to me.

Looky Likey wrote:
What am I missing with Hunters that makes them competitive? On paper they look fun but bad to me.

Just the anti-flier quality of the weaponry. Even if you miss you have a chance of still hitting them after a while.

It seems like Grav cannon centurions are going to have a lot of use.

 Sasa0mg wrote:

Just the anti-flier quality of the weaponry. Even if you miss you have a chance of still hitting them after a while.

Still not seeing it as the Hunter is just a single shot with an average of half a hull point a 16% chance of destroying its AV12 target when its first shot, then an 8% of destroying its target there after with its 5+ roll for future turns. Assuming worst case he is going second and his flyer comes on turn 2, you shoot turn 3 and miss, he can go off the board and come on automatically turn 4. Granted he misses a turn of shooting but with 'drakes he could still vector strike you on the way out.

Compare that to the stalker that will take off 1.1 hull points and just under 10% chance of destroying its target. You'd need three of them, or two and a quad cannon from a fortification to reliably destroy a 'drake a turn at 3.3 hull points. With three Hunters I'm doing 1.7 hull points and a 40% destroyed result. Add on that both the Hunter and Stalker lack interceptor and they just doesn't seem to work to me?

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 Ninjacommando wrote:

 Sasa0mg wrote:
Grav guns still require 6's to pen, against vehicles lascannons and such would still be more efficient from what I can tell. Granted I'll agree the potential to wreck tanks, ignore cover saves to wargear is nice and the ease of which to damage heavily armored targets the salvo and AP are its only real redeeming factors as I think other variations of weapons can be equally as effective.

you only need 2 6's to wreck a wave serpent with a Grav weapon. the first 6 will do immobilised + 1 hull point, the 2nd 6 will do 2 hullpoints (as an already immboilised vehicle instead suffers and addition hullpoint)

grav spam seems to be an effective counter to Serpentspam/Riptidespam.

Also note that the grav weapons don't cause penetrating or glancing hits - RAW no cover saves on vehicles, right?

Correct, RAW vehicles do not get cover saves agianst grav weapons.

My calls:

White Scars Bike'n'Run - Troop bikes with skilled rider and 3 special weapons (one is combi) and maybe an attack bike that helps that. Grav bikes are good against MCs and vehicles, and can revert to bolters for hordes.

Command squad bikes with 4-5 special weapons

Dev Centurions - just for a hardish to kill weapons platform. Grav is nasty, if short ranged. Las/Missile is ok, as the platform is hardish to kill and have a good range.

Honour Guard - cheap but hard assault option (may take some practise to use well)

Thunderfire cannon is just insane. I'd take two, if I had any.

Drop pod units (basically any with assault weapons) still have the ability to kill an enemy vehicle or dent a unit before it's even had a turn.

Can anyone explain to me why I would want to field Dev-Centurions /w Grav when I can get the same amount of shots from a cheaper and better CCS on Bikes?

Some thoughts:

HQ: May not go with special characters: Chapter master and his fancy retinue with 2+ armor each at 25pts is looking decent.

Elite: Sternguard still looking good, thinking plain guys with a couple combi meltas and heavy flamer(s) with the Drop Pod landing in close.
Terminators with Cyclone for giggles is a possibility.

Troop:
Here I am trying to figure this out: Scouts look like they are the only ones that can select the flakk missile, they are the only entry that specifically say they can select them. Please prove me wrong on this. The little "o" next to the entry in the heavy weapon list makes it uncertain like the "1" in there states "Sternguard only".
I really want it so if someone has a tube they can spend 10 points and be anti-air. I am hoping it is only to mean IF you buy missiles then you can buy them.

I do BT so those crusader squads are looking fun. Crusader landraiders as dedicated transports make it one less taking up a heavy slot.
Do you notice that BT have a real thing for spamming the word "crusade"?

Notice that you can do the five man squads with a heavy weapon again if you do not want to combat squad.
Razorbacks still look good for some added support.

Fast Attack:
My plain attack bikes still look good.
Plain bikes with two grav weapons look like the ultimate interceptor.
Stormtalons are still pretty good, with their "strafing run" ability the added BS +1 and pinning (ground targets) I will not say no to.
Not sure if I can bring myself to fit in a skimmer or jump troops.

Heavy
This is where it gets bad.
The new AA tank may get a pass (it is cool looking though) if I get this flakk missile stuff sorted out: if any guy with a missile tube can have one the tank is not going to get used for an already spoiled for choice area.
Centurions, just finished the models for these guys with some minor alterations, just barely covers the need of a dreadnaught or devastator squad. I think I will use the three and see how they survive as my back yard heavy sniping unit. <edit> forgot: TL LC and ML seems the "only" way to go for killing and surviving.
Thunderfire cannon there is just no saying no to. Techmarine can improve the cover save in some terrain the Centurions can hide in.
Tanks: no AA, Predator is still a cheap dakka tank with the side sponsons: 140 as laspred or 95 as dakkapred. For my needs: dakkapred.
Stormraven: ummmm... ah, was using him as interceptor or gunship for blasting ground targets, thinking I got most of that covered so LR Crusader would be the way to go so it is sad not to use this guy.

This is a "combined arms" viewpoint without going for spam.

Kangodo wrote:
Can anyone explain to me why I would want to field Dev-Centurions /w Grav when I can get the same amount of shots from a cheaper and better CCS on Bikes?

Easy! Because as it now stands, Command Squads can't take special weapons (including grav guns), only comb-weapons.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
Can anyone explain to me why I would want to field Dev-Centurions /w Grav when I can get the same amount of shots from a cheaper and better CCS on Bikes?

Easy! Because as it now stands, Command Squads can't take special weapons (including grav guns), only comb-weapons.

I think they FAQ'd that not too long ago.

The real reason you want Dev-Cents with Grav cannons is the grav amps which means that even GEQs aren't really safe.