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FoW had a new thread today: fill out a survey "AAR" to help the customer base.

My feedback was highly critical but no innappropriate language or anything like that. I was kicked off the website within a couple minutes of posting.

Here's a synopsis:

-I'm going to use plastic soldier company products because BF products are over priced. Despite cheap Malaysian labor and economy of scale based on the spread of their products the prices keep going up when basic ecomics says they should get cheaper.

-I criticised the lack of opportunity fire and instant indirect fire rules as being more in keeping with sci fi games than a legitimate wargame.

-I told them they should be ashamed that they published thousands and thousands of out of register decals for german numbers and german crosses. If you've seen them and many of you have, you know what I'm talking about.

-I told them their should spend more time on the website with hobby articles and less promoting ranger events.

They asked for comments and I gave them some. Now I'm banned. They have absolutely zero respect for the customer and merely want to pick our pockets at this point.

Am I wrong or does Battlefront need to be sent a message? We keep buying and buying BUT PEOPLE THERE ARE ALTERNATIVES TO BATTLEFRONT EMERGING. IF BATTLEFRONT WANTS TO IGNORE THEIR CONSTITUENCY THEY NEED TO FIND THEMSELVES WITHOUT A KINGDOM TO RULE! REVOLUTION!

Without seeing your post on the website and reading this, especially your last line, it does make me think you were a little more critical in your describing of the issues and you were a) not buying any of their models due to price and b) already looking to another game system?

Correct?

Wow is no one happy with the hard work from these companies? First gw now fow.

Do you go to Walmart and bash them for over charging you on cheap Chinese made crap that is over priced? Have you written strongly worded letters to clothing companies, auto markers electronic companies or most companies dealing with plastics? Ya didn't think so.

Simple thing is don't like it don't buy it move on with your life.

Also I don't see how this is a N & R thread. Maybe try down in the FOW section?

Vain,

I hope not to go to another gaming system but am frustrated by how BF is doing things and hoping to help them with some honest criticism.

ccage,

Find a better comparison than Walmart....their business model is keeping prices low (through economy of scale) the exact opposite of BF.

I don't blame them for deleting my post....I would do the same. I am irritated that because I gave them some honest feedback I got banned.

Actually, basic economics suggest that products should slowly rise in price over time. Don, your post on here suggests serious hostility towards Battlefront, not just basic criticism. I realize you didn't post your actual message to them, but on here it is definitely very hostile. Can you post the actual message you sent them?

That sucks and all. A good way to not get flak on this new forum would be to observe the forum rules and not post random topics in the News & Rumors forum (this forum is for News, and Rumors)

My best guess is you hinted at "cheap malaysian labor" which I think child labor, and they have a disgruntled hobbiest possibly threating a lawsuit, for one.

Then stating using other companies minis with their system, that might be a 2nd red flag...

Unsure what you meant about german crosses, is it a copyright point you brought up?

Does fow have a community blog? If so they wouldn't want a hobbiest talking to others about those points most likely....




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I saw the AAR survey...

AAR Data Collection Project. The purpose of this project is to gather together game information from you and those from players across the globe. The more games we have the more complete of a picture the data will give the design team. These will help us answer vital questions like, what’s being played? What lists are beating what? Are the missions balanced? And more…

They want battle reports.....not rants.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
& yes, there are forums, so.... there ya go!

Don KC wrote:
FoW had a new thread today: fill out a survey "AAR" to help the customer base.

My feedback was highly critical but no innappropriate language or anything like that. I was kicked off the website within a couple minutes of posting.

Here's a synopsis:

-I'm going to use plastic soldier company products because BF products are over priced. Despite cheap Malaysian labor and economy of scale based on the spread of their products the prices keep going up when basic ecomics says they should get cheaper.

-I criticised the lack of opportunity fire and instant indirect fire rules as being more in keeping with sci fi games than a legitimate wargame.

-I told them they should be ashamed that they published thousands and thousands of out of register decals for german numbers and german crosses. If you've seen them and many of you have, you know what I'm talking about.

-I told them their should spend more time on the website with hobby articles and less promoting ranger events.

They asked for comments and I gave them some. Now I'm banned. They have absolutely zero respect for the customer and merely want to pick our pockets at this point.

Am I wrong or does Battlefront need to be sent a message? We keep buying and buying BUT PEOPLE THERE ARE ALTERNATIVES TO BATTLEFRONT EMERGING. IF BATTLEFRONT WANTS TO IGNORE THEIR CONSTITUENCY THEY NEED TO FIND THEMSELVES WITHOUT A KINGDOM TO RULE! REVOLUTION!

Well, here is my opinion. I like BF and their products.They are not over priced for what you get in their box sets.Command .bases etc. They are worth their money.Not their fault you do not know where to look for deals.Yes their is alternatives,but after you go buy bases and specialist weapons and command you really do not save that much money.PSC are good nice sculpts but they can charge less because they are plastic. My favorite thing s to buy a PSC plastic set and get me a nice warrior or a unique BF model for command. But because i can since BF is expensive take this in to consideration.Go buy a American Armored rifle platoon for BF retail 75$, Now go part that out to the other companies.I want bases At guns,weapons teams,Infantry and all of the other goodies even decals. i bet it will run you more money.Also BTW you can buy that set for around 50$ discounted because you can with BF sets.
Rules, all wargames have their problems that why they make new editions.
For the German numbers and crosses,this is a Historical game.Not a Geo political game.If that was the case the SS would not be in the game.
Promotions for the ranger events, That is how a gaming company brings in new players.For the website contents how come you did not submit anything.?tutorial,Battle reports etc.?
LAst thing... I did not know that this was a GW haters party.I guess it was in due time with GWs basterd child.No matter how much some of us like them.

Topic 1: BF's prices have increased more than 50% in last 5 years. Name one commodity that has done that? Not gold, not oil, not anything.

The unit cost of production should have decreased substantially in that same time as BF has multiplied its its production.

My premise is we can keep buying BF products like sheep or we can give them a shot across the bow that they have competitors we as a gaming community will give our business to unless BF realizes brand loyalty/recognition won't keep customers when the companies mark up is beyond ridiculous and makes it difficult for the average gamer to afford.

Are we lemmings or men? For capitalism to work the consumers must have choices. There are alternatives out there to BF and gamers have to have the collective and individual courage to tell BF they no longer have a monopoly and they must stop arbitrarily raising prices or they'll lose there customer base.

I sense I'm alone on this. Please feel free to keep getting gouged by BF. Now that there are other choices I'm voting with my wallet.

Topic 2 Fow Rules: I play FoW because it is popular not because it meets my definition of a wargame or is more historically accurate than say someone wearing a paper mache head of George Washington on Presidents' Day. It's the only game in town. But not forever.

My point is BF needs to smell the coffee or risk its position of primacy on the 15mm WWII stage. BF has lost its way.

Mea Culpa for starting this thread in the wrong form. Apologies.

It'd be nice if the FoW gaming community all sent emails to BF asking why their prices skyrocketed when simple economics says they should have decreased. I'd love to hear what they'd publicly say. Probably that the price of lead and resin is more expensive than gold now.

Don KC wrote:

It'd be nice if the FoW gaming community all sent emails to BF asking why their prices skyrocketed when simple economics says they should have decreased. I'd love to hear what they'd publicly say. Probably that the price of lead and resin is more expensive than gold now.

They're under no obligation to pass on their savings to you. That said... you're under no obligations to buy their products unless you only play in officially sanctioned events that check that. You have alternatives when it comes to historical minis unlike alot of other proprietary scifi/fantasy games. If you enjoy using your minis (from whichever manufacturer) and enjoy playing FOW with your local crowd, you don't punish anyone but yourself by not playing. Simply stop buying their products and encourage others to explore the alternatives as well.

OP Alot of your argument is predicated on pseudo-facts or conjecture.

Ranger Events - meh...They have a great Website - They give away free tournament legal lists, for FREE. When has GW given away free PDF's of Codex lists on their Website? Their articles are great. I think your points are unfounded, but I don't think you should be banned.

I suspect from your post above, you've used inflammatory, sarcastic or put forth your argument in an irrational tone. Frankly, as someone who has built his own rules on the FOW rules, I've had a couple of ranty irrational e-mails from people who don't like what I've done and do you know what I did....I told them to go away, if you don't like it, I don't care. Equally I've had people put forward really well written and well crafted, constructive criticism and I've received it well and made sweeping changes.

Tone, language and the facts of the case matter.

Few historical companies release new editions at the rate FOW do... Rapid Fire has managed two editions in over 20 years. Its a GW model, not a historical one.

Atleast BF uses a quality resin.still cheaper than Krak.mmmmm...krak...

Not as nice as plastic though...

You boys at PSC are a exception.you guys did a bang up job on the Stuarts , I like the new style of traxs.now i want a company of them.Just to bad FOW does not have a list for BRit Stuart company.Just for the YAnks.
I have a question,Are their any plans to release a Armored car set?Especially Daimlers? i am really surprised that no one makes theese in plastic yet.


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Big P wrote:
Few historical companies release new editions at the rate FOW do... Rapid Fire has managed two editions in over 20 years. Its a GW model, not a historical one.

At least they still let you use the old Sourcebooks.i would be in a world hurt.Because i buy the old ones up on ebay and still use them.

If you're posting rants in a thread asking for AARs and such they probably figured you were just there to troll. Especially if you're a new user on that forum too.

Me and BF parted company a couple of years ago, I do not like the way they conduct their business and I don't much like their attitude towards wargaming - The Battle Front Hobby, yeah right , what a load of crap.

I will take a PSC model any day over any mis- formed over priced junk from BF and with forged in battle coming on as well it's all good in WW2 gaming as far as I'm concerned.

I never really did like the rules much but thankfully my gaming club have seen the new dawn that is Battle group.

Edit: The numbers and crosses thing the OP is taking about are mis-printed decals that are slightly and annoyingly out of alignment, and should never been allowed to go on sale.

 Aldramelech wrote:


I never really did like the rules much but thankfully my gaming club have seen the new dawn that is Battle group.

I'd ban you too, if it was my forum. Play another game and stop bitching. I disliked GWs corporate scheme so I switched mostly to FoW.

They have not increased prices hardly at all in the last 8 years, so I have no idea where your numbers come from.

Battlefront is about the best company to deal with right now. They are what GW was in the 90s.

Seriously? Revolution? Just go away. They make amazing models for reasonable prices. PSC doesn't touch their quality and I own a lot of PSC. Zvezda is terrible, though cheap, and all the other little companies aren't worth mentioning as they are either the same price or absolute terrible quality.

You are way out of line and your arguments aren't grounded in fact.

EDIT: Just re-read your posts. You are a lunatic, or just a pot-stirrer. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking and none of your arguments make sense or have anything to back them up. Next time if you have a point, try not to come across as a raving lunatic and have some actual points that aren't just stuff you pulled out of your head because you think them.

I don't know why you'd make an account here simply to post this up. Its not that big a deal.

I've heard other complaints about Battlefront policies and such, but really, its as simple as "like it or leave it"

Come join us in Infinity =P

I would have banned you too because it's not what you say, but how you say it. Some of your points may be valid, but your tone was rather discourteous. I've found in life that people are more likely to accept my criticism and advice when I explain my reasoning in a calm, rational manner. Here is how you could re-word your comments:

-The pricing of models is a very important factor when I make purchasing decisions, so I hope you can find new and innovative ways to keep your products reasonably priced.

-It would be great if you would consider adding some optional, complex rules for more advanced players, (two examples include opportunity fire and instant indirect fire).

-I was disappointed with the quality of (and your decision to release) the register decals for German numbers and German crosses, which were badly aligned. I don't feel that that product was representative of Battlefront's typical high standard of quality.

-I really enjoy your website hobby articles and I would love for you to focus more on those instead of other areas, (such as promoting Ranger events).

Mez

^This is how you approach a criticism in an adult manner without getting personal or irrational. It shows intelligence, balance and a considered approach, it is much more likely to result in a favourable / positive response than a raving irrational diatribe of foaming at the mouth negativity.

Excellent post Mez.

Don KC wrote:
Topic 1: BF's prices have increased more than 50% in last 5 years. Name one commodity that has done that? Not gold, not oil, not anything.

Topic 2 Fow Rules: I play FoW because it is popular not because it meets my definition of a wargame or is more historically accurate than say someone wearing a paper mache head of George Washington on Presidents' Day. It's the only game in town. But not forever.

Exactly what product prices have skyrocketed 50%?? I am paying almost exactly the same price for a single tank in a blister now as I was 3 or 4 years ago. Where is this massive price increase you are complaining about? I've seen some boxed sets go up in price somewhat, but hardly all that dramatically increased there either. You are confusing Battlefront prices with Games workshop prices which actually HAVE increased that dramatically in recent years. Even their prepainted terrain is pretty decently priced. Just because I can go out and buy PSC minis for cheaper doesn't make BFs stuff over priced. It just means that a smaller company like PSC can release their products more cheaply. PSC doesn't have anywhere near the size or overhead of Battlefront so can set its prices lower to A) Get the money flowing and B) To establish itself in the marketplace. I expect there will come a day when PSC gets so popular that they are forced to grow and their prices will start to increase as well. It happens.

Funny that your comment on FoW being the "only game in town" is exactly what people say about Warhammer games. The difference is, though, that Flames of War is actually a pretty good game and really well done. Not too many other companies out there giving you free rulebooks when they update to a new version of the rules, to make up for the fact that you bought the rulebook previously. Also not too many companies listen to their customers complaining about problems with some of their lists who then go out and design and provide, free of charge, stickers for those who own the books with the problems in them that cover up the old rules and replace them with the "fixed" rules either. Battlefront is still a pretty decent class act. They care about their players, listen to their complaints and address them when they are valid.

In my local store if people don't like the common game, they come in and play something else. They demo games and generate interest and if the game is better it picks up a following and supplants the current game in favor. You can certainly do the same thing. Though most people will want to see a better game and not just a game that is *not* created by Battlefront. Trying to get folks to switch game systems because you personally have a problem with the maker of the game they currently play doesn't often lead to much change.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Big P wrote:
Few historical companies release new editions at the rate FOW do... Rapid Fire has managed two editions in over 20 years. Its a GW model, not a historical one.

Hardly a GW model. GW releases new versions because it is "time" to release a new version. Each new version of Flames of War was a needed new version. There were some indemnic flaws in version 1 that lead to version 2. They didn't get some things quite right in version 2, though and released version 3 which focused on those areas that were most complained about by the player base and left the majority of the rules alone. GW could learn a few things from the way battlefront has released its versions. I've got nothing wrong with a new version being released if it makes the game better. Who cares if Rapid Fire has only had 2 editions in over 20 years. I've seen horrible games that never had updated editions that they desperately needed. Certainly not any kind of model I'd like to see become the norm in the industry by any means.

Skriker

Intrigued how you know PSCs overheads...

A company whose product is designed and manufactured in the UK. Not cheap that.

Steel injection plastic moulds aint cheap either...

Whilst I agree with your point on PSC Overheads, it doesn't take the brains of rocket scientist to know that whatever PSC Overheads are... They will pale in the face of Battlefronts Overheads.

Steel Injection Plastic Moulds are indeed not cheap. But I doubt that Will as the level where he can take a living wage yet, and Battlefront has a number of Employees and affiliates.

I hope PSC can continue to do well, but to think it is in the same league as Battlefront Miniatures Ltd is a bit of stretch.

PSC has employees and premises too...

I know.

I'm one of them... But I'm very cheap.

I'm not sure I said the two were of the same size, but I think PSC is a lot bigger than many realise.

Big P wrote:
Intrigued how you know PSCs overheads...

A company whose product is designed and manufactured in the UK. Not cheap that.

Steel injection plastic moulds aint cheap either...

Ummm...it is called supposition. A simple technique where someone can compare a larger company to a smaller one and through past experience it is likely to understand that their overhead costs would be lower. Who said what PSC does is cheap? Certainly not me. Besides why does it matter? Since you are an employee are you disagreeing with my statement that PSC has less overhead than Battlefront? If not then what exactly is the problem? Did I somehow insult PSC by stating it likely has a lower overhead than Battlefront? Hardly...

Skriker

Golly, was only asking.

Why such aggressive tendencies?

why are people replying to an obvious troll?