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 Zagman wrote:
Casual players and Competitive players need to communicate their expectations and wants clearly. For most its a continuum, and if the gap between players is too wide problems arise. Find opponents who are looking for the same type of game you are.

Effective communication would solve all of our problems. Don't expect everyone else to play the same game you do.

And there it is plain as day exalted and agreed.

Gamer 1: "Oh hai, do you want to play a game?"
Gamer 2: "Sure, I have my Tau list I'm fine tuning for a tourney with me"
G1: "Ah, my list is a sort of silly World Eaters list that isn't very strong from a competitive viewpoint, neither of us will likely get very much out of such an unbalanced game, Jeff over there though is looking for a game though and is gearing up for a tourney too"
G2: "Ah thanks, I just spoke to a guy over there who had a crazy themed Baharroth list he wanted to test, maybe you can try him"
G1: "Cool, thanks, have a good game"

And scene.

It takes like 30 seconds. The competitive player doesn't have to nerf his list, the casual player doesn't have to modify his list to compromise his vision and everyone wins. Know what kind of game you're bringing, learn what kind of game your opponent is after and if they match, play. If not, look for another opponent.

Whatever your style finding like minded gamers is the first step to getting the most fun from the game.

As I am a new player to 40K I have only played Tau once. And of all the games I have played that was by far the most uninteresting, boring game that I have played.

I know what Tau gunlines can do (i have their codex) and went into the game with my Orks expecting an uphill fight. But I wouldn't call it a fight at all, more like a slaughter.

So this last weekend the same Tau player asked for another game, and I declined. Two reasons; one, there was BA and IG armies available to fight and secondly,
it would not have been fun. I don't get alot of time to game and when I do, I would like to have fun and get to use the models I have painted and converted.

I did feel bad when the Tau player packed up and left. And from anecdotal evidence from those that I played that day, he was getting less and less games.

FYI, I lost both games to the BA and IG armies. But they were incredible games and my boyz actually got stuck in and my Warboss got to go on a rampage for a little bit before being crushed.

 Dunklezahn wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
Casual players and Competitive players need to communicate their expectations and wants clearly. For most its a continuum, and if the gap between players is too wide problems arise. Find opponents who are looking for the same type of game you are.

Effective communication would solve all of our problems. Don't expect everyone else to play the same game you do.

And there it is plain as day exalted and agreed.

Gamer 1: "Oh hai, do you want to play a game?"
Gamer 2: "Sure, I have my Tau list I'm fine tuning for a tourney with me"
G1: "Ah, my list is a sort of silly World Eaters list that isn't very strong from a competitive viewpoint, neither of us will likely get very much out of such an unbalanced game, Jeff over there though is looking for a game though and is gearing up for a tourney too"
G2: "Ah thanks, I just spoke to a guy over there who had a crazy themed Baharroth list he wanted to test, maybe you can try him"
G1: "Cool, thanks, have a good game"

And scene.

It takes like 30 seconds. The competitive player doesn't have to nerf his list, the casual player doesn't have to modify his list to compromise his vision and everyone wins. Know what kind of game you're bringing, learn what kind of game your opponent is after and if they match, play. If not, look for another opponent.

Whatever your style finding like minded gamers is the first step to getting the most fun from the game.

I think thats all good - but it can in fact lead to some players not getting games at all.............its a difficult one to call really.

Gamer 1: "Oh hey, do you want to play a game?"
Gamer 2: "Sure, I have my Tau list I'm fine tuning for a tourney with me"
G1: "Ah, my list is a sort of silly World Eaters list that isn't very strong from a competitive viewpoint, neither of us will likely get very much out of such an unbalanced game, Jeff is usually up for a comp game but is away and Dave and Max are just here for a bit of a laugh - playing a scenario game. Sorry mate, maybe Jeff will be up next week and you can try him"

No good tournament player would want to play against someone he doesn't know , the chance that others will get wind about his tournament list would be too great .

You guys make it sound as if there were countless free tables standing around , no one playing and groups of people playing different systems walking around the store asking each other for games .

Sorry mate, maybe Jeff will be up next week and you can try him

So a dude comes to a store , has to wait till someone playing w40k and then gets the news that maybe next week someone will be that that may be able to play him. If of course both of the have time , both of the dudes want to play against each ohter, the Jeff person isn't playing someone else , the tau X player can play next week and the tournament isn't next week . why not slap him with a wet towel , doesn't leave marks and hurts like hell , specialy if you put a stone in the towel .

As a competitive Gamer, I always play to win. However, given the fact that not everyone has the same experience i have, or has been collecting for as long as i have and therefore doesn't have as complete a collection as i do, or indeed isn't of the same mentality as me, it often behooves me to take a selection of army lists to a games night. whereupon i ask what kind of game they are expecting. if its just for fun, i'll take a fluffy army. if its they want a challenging, but not a cut-throat game, i'll take a different army. and if its a no-holds barred game i'll take an O'vesa star, or Taudar or whatever evil inconcievable nastiness i happen to be trying that particular week.

The fact is that my new group isn't the same as my old one, so i've had to adapt my style, and what expectations i have from a game to the local players, and the local meta. It was challenging at first, but its got easier over time. Adapting a list, isn't the same as not playing to the best of my ability. I will never go easy on anyone, except perhaps the new 'never played before' guy, and they are usually warned away from me (without justification).

For thoseof you who say tau are overpowered, and no fun to play against. well, part of the challenge of 40k is fighting different opponents, with different strategies, and pounding their armies into the ground. the way to learn how to beat tau isn't to refuse to play them, its to play them again, and again, and again until you work out what exactly works, and what doesn't. Throughout my gaming career, i've often faced armies that i just couldn't beat with whatever faction i was playing at the time. My strategy was, first to buy the army book, and second, to play that army again, and again and again until i'd figured out how to beat them, and then beaten them at least 50% of the time.

If you take the time to examine the Tau codex, you will find there are a few glaring weaknesses, and a a few key units that boost the effectiveness of the army as a whole. Take those units out, and you reduce the overall effectiveness of the army. If you allow the Tau to dictate the terms of the battle, which, in my experience, is what usually happens, and they will take you apart effortlessly. If you dictate the terms to the Tau, the game will go your way more often than not

Evidently the Tau are not paying enough, or everyone else is paying too much.

The Wave Serpent is straight up undercosted. Much more so than the Riptide.

^^^ You still don't get it. Tau are not fun to play against. First they do millimetre moves forever, then shoot forever and finally make the millimetre moves back, taking forever.

Of course there are some variations to this, but the majority seem to play that way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unfortuntunately GW does not change any costs afterwards. I guess they don't see any problems.

 Frankenberry wrote:
Don't have a problem playing Tau here, there are the 'meta crew' that runs whatever is hot in tourneys so naturally there's the Eldar-Tau and Tau-Tau. It's annoying sometimes but I like the challenge, feels good to beat a Triple Riptide with a Foot-Guard list.

Exactly! I don't remember anyone giving tau players a break when the tau codex sucked so badly, and now those same people are trying to keep tau from using and enjoying their first decent codex ever.

Skriker

Naw wrote:
^^^ You still don't get it. Tau are not fun to play against. First they do millimetre moves forever, then shoot forever and finally make the millimetre moves back, taking forever.

Of course there are some variations to this, but the majority seem to play that way.

Is it really the army then or the players who choose to play this way? An army is only a collection of models, rules and fluff. It's up to a player to choose how to express that on the table and people who play Tripleriptide or build lists that can be described as "unfun" are more the issue for choosing that form of expression over any other options.

I'm going to say other players aren't free of blame. I've seen one complaint on /tg/ that they should have to hide their army (use LOS blocking terrain) to close in against Tau, and they ignored advice about prioritizing Pathfinders first. That isn't the Tau player's fault, that's the fault of the opponent for refusing to adapt, learn and use terrain properly. Like wise asking if they're willing to tone it down because your tired of getting curbstomped, or asking them to give you feedback afterwards on things you did are valid ways to either seek the kind of game you want (and at this point I bet there are Tau players who are willing to oblige just so they can actually play), or learn how to beat Tau.

Regardless of how you choose to go about it, blaming a collection of models, rules and fluff won't solve things. Better communication, adaptation and learning how they really work instead of mashing the "OP" button will.

 Ailaros wrote:

cvtuttle wrote:I remember when this post applied to Space Wolves, then Grey Knights, then CSM (w/Heldrakes), then Tau, then Eldar...

Just seems like it is cyclical. You are never going to learn to beat an army unless you play against it.

But it isn't. Grousing about a new codex is tradition. People who play the new codex not being able to play games... that's new. Dare I say, unique.

We're looking at something very different here, not merely more of the same.

It's not new. All of those armies I listed were, at one point, considered "win button" armies that required no skill to play.

 cvtuttle wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

cvtuttle wrote:I remember when this post applied to Space Wolves, then Grey Knights, then CSM (w/Heldrakes), then Tau, then Eldar...

Just seems like it is cyclical. You are never going to learn to beat an army unless you play against it.

But it isn't. Grousing about a new codex is tradition. People who play the new codex not being able to play games... that's new. Dare I say, unique.

We're looking at something very different here, not merely more of the same.

It's not new. All of those armies I listed were, at one point, considered "win button" armies that required no skill to play.

He was saying Tau players being refused games was a new trend, not that the idea that certain armies are seen "win button" armies.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 cvtuttle wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

cvtuttle wrote:I remember when this post applied to Space Wolves, then Grey Knights, then CSM (w/Heldrakes), then Tau, then Eldar...

Just seems like it is cyclical. You are never going to learn to beat an army unless you play against it.

But it isn't. Grousing about a new codex is tradition. People who play the new codex not being able to play games... that's new. Dare I say, unique.

We're looking at something very different here, not merely more of the same.

It's not new. All of those armies I listed were, at one point, considered "win button" armies that required no skill to play.

He was saying Tau players being refused games was a new trend, not that the idea that certain armies are seen "win button" armies.

If that's the case it isn't true either. This happened with all of those armies (which was my original point). It was especially poignant with Grey Knights.

 Dunklezahn wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
Casual players and Competitive players need to communicate their expectations and wants clearly. For most its a continuum, and if the gap between players is too wide problems arise. Find opponents who are looking for the same type of game you are.

Effective communication would solve all of our problems. Don't expect everyone else to play the same game you do.

And there it is plain as day exalted and agreed.

Gamer 1: "Oh hai, do you want to play a game?"
Gamer 2: "Sure, I have my Tau list I'm fine tuning for a tourney with me"
G1: "Ah, my list is a sort of silly World Eaters list that isn't very strong from a competitive viewpoint, neither of us will likely get very much out of such an unbalanced game, Jeff over there though is looking for a game though and is gearing up for a tourney too"
G2: "Ah thanks, I just spoke to a guy over there who had a crazy themed Baharroth list he wanted to test, maybe you can try him"
G1: "Cool, thanks, have a good game"

And scene.

It takes like 30 seconds. The competitive player doesn't have to nerf his list, the casual player doesn't have to modify his list to compromise his vision and everyone wins. Know what kind of game you're bringing, learn what kind of game your opponent is after and if they match, play. If not, look for another opponent.

Whatever your style finding like minded gamers is the first step to getting the most fun from the game.

That happens pretty often at my FLGS. Just last week I walked in and there were only 2 people aside from me. 1 wanted a tournament WAAC game, and I played the other last week (who refuses to play me because I play daemons, even though I lost to his eldar) So we just hung out and talked for a bit, then when other people came in, we started playing against the new arrivals. Ill probably be playing against a friends Tau tonight, then hopefully I might get to use my Necrons to rematch the eldar player.

Tbh, I'm really not surprised that Tau are struggling to find games.

My mate's broken me.... With me trying to beat him with my Chaos (who as much as the interweb say are useless, I at least usually get a decent go at a game).

But .... Tau..... just no. I've been getting tabled for just about a year.

Gunline, Deep Striking, LRers, Rhino Rush, Spawn Zergs... but I'm dead before I even get near him.

Maybe because I'm actually using chaos marines in my list and only 1 heldrake... maybe that's what I'm doing wrong.

Anyway, I've tried every type of build I can think of, but I just can't get at him. I imagine my books not the only one with the same problem.

Also liked the post about why should I have to bring 210 cultists and 3 Heldrakes to win a game...

So they're getting no sympathy from me.... They need hit with the nerfbat back to 4th edition.

But for the next comp in Jan, my CSM are going Blue (Apparently you don't go back).

If you can't beat them... become an ally force.

madtankbloke wrote:
For thoseof you who say tau are overpowered, and no fun to play against. well, part of the challenge of 40k is fighting different opponents, with different strategies, and pounding their armies into the ground. the way to learn how to beat tau isn't to refuse to play them, its to play them again, and again, and again until you work out what exactly works, and what doesn't. Throughout my gaming career, i've often faced armies that i just couldn't beat with whatever faction i was playing at the time. My strategy was, first to buy the army book, and second, to play that army again, and again and again until i'd figured out how to beat them, and then beaten them at least 50% of the time.

If you take the time to examine the Tau codex, you will find there are a few glaring weaknesses, and a a few key units that boost the effectiveness of the army as a whole. Take those units out, and you reduce the overall effectiveness of the army. If you allow the Tau to dictate the terms of the battle, which, in my experience, is what usually happens, and they will take you apart effortlessly. If you dictate the terms to the Tau, the game will go your way more often than not

Very well put. Back in 2nd edition Eldar were considered overpowered and impossible to beat. Everyone said it and everyone believed it, but I never had a problem with them in any games. Why? Because I watched others play against them regularly. I bought the codex. I thought about what I saw. It was exactly the same thing. Back then if you let eldar control the flow of battle and let their units all do what they did best then they would stomp you into the ground. If you pulled all those highly specialized units out of their comfortable roles they fell quite easily. Tau are the same. Pay attention. Watch others play. Read the codex. Play them as often as you could to test out your theories. Eventually you will succeed against them. Let Tau do what they do best with impunity and you have no room to complain that you got shot to pieces. It is like the old joke with the doctor when the guy goes in and says, "Doc it hurts if I do this" and the doc replies, "Well don't do that." So if what you are doing allows Tau to walk all over your force then don't do that next time. If you play the same opponent again and their army is the same and yours is the same and you again try to use the same tactics that seriously failed you before , your chance of success is not that good. Yet this is what people do game in and game out. "The same failed tactics haven't worked in any game I've played against Tau so "obviously" Tau are over powered". Heaven forbid someone try to shake up and change their tactics when something doesn't work. One of my regular opponents plays Tau and I was thrilled to see the Tau book get the upgrade it deserved. That meant I had to figure out how to deal with a *real* threat from the tau finally...

Skriker

nope, round here I eat tau for breakfast in friendly games/tournies, but even stuff i have trouble with i enjoy playing.

it is, in my opinion, on the guy who backed out as soon as he saw an army he couldnt deal with, as he is being unsporting in "pre-defeat" as it were. .

he offered to play, that it will be a tough/unwinnable game should remind him that he needs to adapt his meta a bit, take some more anti monstrous creature stuff.


I hear the same "complaints" about riptides as I hear about wraith knights, wraith lords, MY dreadknights, and NIDs...

my IG army has plenty of anti monstrous creature stuff to deal with rip tides.... is it as ROFLSTOMP rediculous as how much stuff my GK army has to do the same thing? no, but its not that far off considering my GK have to get into HTH and my IG can just leaf blower everything 1st turn. It is fairly easy to have enough weight of fire/ap2 to take down a riptide or three with my IG, as I have other monster spam and 2+ save stuff to deal with already.

heck I have lots of FLYING monster spam to deal with...



sometimes this game means laughing while your guys get exploded.

thats when you sweep up the gibs, and come back with some plasma/detta/las spam on your ig or increase your ability to deal with monsters as they are a big part of the meta now and are not going anywhere with nids/orks on the horizon.

 Grumzimus wrote:
Tbh, I'm really not surprised that Tau are struggling to find games.

My mate's broken me.... With me trying to beat him with my Chaos (who as much as the interweb say are useless, I at least usually get a decent go at a game).

But .... Tau..... just no. I've been getting tabled for just about a year.

Gunline, Deep Striking, LRers, Rhino Rush, Spawn Zergs... but I'm dead before I even get near him.

Maybe because I'm actually using chaos marines in my list and only 1 heldrake... maybe that's what I'm doing wrong.

Anyway, I've tried every type of build I can think of, but I just can't get at him. I imagine my books not the only one with the same problem.

Also liked the post about why should I have to bring 210 cultists and 3 Heldrakes to win a game...

So they're getting no sympathy from me.... They need hit with the nerfbat back to 4th edition.

But for the next comp in Jan, my CSM are going Blue (Apparently you don't go back).

If you can't beat them... become an ally force.

What's he running? Have you asked for advice about how you're playing? Have you asked to try switching armies for a game to see how he combats his Tau?

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Wardragoon wrote:



You my sir are a hero, I will agree that the Tau bring in a new meta of covering weaknesses, if all codices were like this I think less people would travel to other TT wargames, problem is quite frankly the Tau made a big power leap instead of new codex power creep (to you naysayers please grab the old BT codex, or DA codex....or really any out of date codex and try to play against the newer codices....idk how SoB do it).

By having a seriously powerful codex with the exception of our lack of anti-air options. :p

The only reason you don't see threads complaining about outflanking melta dominions is because so few people have to face them in the first place.

....Really, Burn marker lights getting rid of the cover save by jink, and then go to town with Railguns.

 Wardragoon wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Wardragoon wrote:



You my sir are a hero, I will agree that the Tau bring in a new meta of covering weaknesses, if all codices were like this I think less people would travel to other TT wargames, problem is quite frankly the Tau made a big power leap instead of new codex power creep (to you naysayers please grab the old BT codex, or DA codex....or really any out of date codex and try to play against the newer codices....idk how SoB do it).

By having a seriously powerful codex with the exception of our lack of anti-air options. :p

The only reason you don't see threads complaining about outflanking melta dominions is because so few people have to face them in the first place.

....Really, Burn marker lights getting rid of the cover save by jink, and then go to town with Railguns.

What jink?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Wardragoon wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Wardragoon wrote:



You my sir are a hero, I will agree that the Tau bring in a new meta of covering weaknesses, if all codices were like this I think less people would travel to other TT wargames, problem is quite frankly the Tau made a big power leap instead of new codex power creep (to you naysayers please grab the old BT codex, or DA codex....or really any out of date codex and try to play against the newer codices....idk how SoB do it).

By having a seriously powerful codex with the exception of our lack of anti-air options. :p

The only reason you don't see threads complaining about outflanking melta dominions is because so few people have to face them in the first place.

....Really, Burn marker lights getting rid of the cover save by jink, and then go to town with Railguns.

What jink?

Evading with flyers, it gives you jink, which at least according to my brb is a cover save

Dominions aren't flyers, they're infantry with the Scouts rule.

Sorry, I wasnt refferencing the dominion bit, just the no antiflyer bit
EDIT: I don't even know what dominions are I assume they are SoB units

Makumba wrote:
No good tournament player would want to play against someone he doesn't know , the chance that others will get wind about his tournament list would be too great .

You guys make it sound as if there were countless free tables standing around , no one playing and groups of people playing different systems walking around the store asking each other for games .

Sorry mate, maybe Jeff will be up next week and you can try him

So a dude comes to a store , has to wait till someone playing w40k and then gets the news that maybe next week someone will be that that may be able to play him. If of course both of the have time , both of the dudes want to play against each ohter, the Jeff person isn't playing someone else , the tau X player can play next week and the tournament isn't next week . why not slap him with a wet towel , doesn't leave marks and hurts like hell , specialy if you put a stone in the towel .

er that was exactly the point I was making - its not a good thing...............

 Wardragoon wrote:
Sorry, I wasnt refferencing the dominion bit, just the no antiflyer bit
EDIT: I don't even know what dominions are I assume they are SoB units

Um, Sisters don't have markerlights OR railguns. I was pointing out that the only weakness Sisters have is that they don't have any anti-air, and that the only reason you don't hear about how broken we are is because so few people get a chance to get crushed by us.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Wardragoon wrote:
Sorry, I wasnt refferencing the dominion bit, just the no antiflyer bit
EDIT: I don't even know what dominions are I assume they are SoB units

Um, Sisters don't have markerlights OR railguns. I was pointing out that the only weakness Sisters have is that they don't have any anti-air, and that the only reason you don't hear about how broken we are is because so few people get a chance to get crushed by us.

"Crushed" isn't a word I'd use, but yes, with so few of us about there aren't many who really know what to expect out of a game with the army.

I love the armchair assessments where every Tau build seems to have the perfect answer for every situation present in every list...

For the person who said the Tau will just hit that Flyer with Markerlights, boost the BS, and ignore its cover. The only Skyfire Marker-lights in the entire codex are on the Skyray and Sunshark Bomber. Otherwise those Markerlights are snapshotting. So, he'd need on average 18 Markerlights to get the three necessary to remove cover and boost BS by 1. That includes MarkOs and Drones, he can't give them Skyfire, they still snapshot even with the Drone Controller. A lovely vacuum scenario with no real table top bearing.

Riptides unsupported do not have a high damage output, but supported Riptides with either tons of Markerlight, a Buffcommander, or an allied Farseer can. Markerlights are generally easy to counter, pathfinders die easily, Iridium Marko is much tougher to counter without positioning or focus fire. Try and take out their support, or if you have an assault contingent try and sweep the Riptide. Riptide Spam is generally weak in Troops and supporting Units.

Gunline Tau has weaknesses. They are highly immobile and create seems in their army which can be exploited. Anonomous5 wrote a pretty good article on 3++ i believe about it. Exploit their weaknesses, use your premeasuring to your advantage, and attack the weak links in their army.

HYMP Broadsides have a limited range, exploit it.

Troops are the single greatest weakness in the Tau Codex. The Tau codex is also extremely weak against AV14. As much as people want to think the entire codex has interceptor, it doesn't, Drop Pod assault can cripple a Tau army if done correctly.

Tau can be beaten, and the meta is shifting. Eldar are hands down the top and they particularly wreck Tau on a consistent basis. In my experience peoples greatest problem is that do not understand the Tau Codex, how it plays, its weaknesses, and how to counter them. That generally takes time and a willingness to change. 40k is not static, you have to change and adapt with the times.

Learn, adapt, and stop complaining. And before you tell me you aren't a competitive player, then stop playing the competitive players.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Wardragoon wrote:
Sorry, I wasnt refferencing the dominion bit, just the no antiflyer bit
EDIT: I don't even know what dominions are I assume they are SoB units

Um, Sisters don't have markerlights OR railguns. I was pointing out that the only weakness Sisters have is that they don't have any anti-air, and that the only reason you don't hear about how broken we are is because so few people get a chance to get crushed by us.

Oh wow.....I derped hardcore hahaha I was thinking tau for whatever reason, sorry

The Tau players around here who decide they just want to play line up and shoot don't get many games, whereas those that play missions do.

I beat one of these guys twice in one evening after he demanded a re-match after I beat him with my DE. Sure enough he then goes on about how DE is broken and not fair. Gues you cannot please them all ( oh and i didnt use venom spam either)

Probably just as well, Cammy, Tau are uniquely suited to slaughter venom spam. :p

Ok a challenge to make the point one way or another. Tau players know the weaknesess of their army better than anyone. So here's the challenge:
1) Find a mate who has a 4/5k plus army that isn't tau, eldar, or whitescars (new element and probably the best build overall of the new dex).
2) Give each other a list of everything you own in said army (doesnt have to be wysiwyg) and swap dex's.
3) Make a 2k army from their list to counter your tau army.
4) Carry on insisting that you win so many more games because you are a better general and not because Tau are underpriced and can cover their own weaknesses effectively or that it has anything to do with being a shootyvarmy in the shootiest edition.
5) Play against the 2k list your mate has made with your army, best out of 3/5.
6) Repeat with different friends varying armies.
7) If successful, and still win many games, come back on this thread and tell the naysayers 'I told you so'.
8) If unsuccessful, admit tau are undercosted.

I realise a lot of people would not like others using their models btw. But it would be an effective experiment otherwise.