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Made in us
The Hive Mind





Hit quote not edit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/04 15:50:57


My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




Fixed it.
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





copper.talos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
As you said - it's a roll to avoid being wounded. Why are you processing an effect that requires an unsaved wound before you know if the wound is unsaved or not?

Because the trigger of FNP and ES is exactly the same. If you have permission to activate FNP the you also have permission to activate ES.

rigeld2 wrote:
If you discount the unsaved wound (as you must - FNP explicitly tells you to) why are you applying an effect that requires an unsaved wound?
If the wound has been saved, why are you applying an effect that requires an unsaved wound?

Because the effects of ES have already been applied. When FNP takes effect there is no more ES in activation to deny its trigger. You only have a model with no save that just passed FNP and it avoided being wounded.

People keep saying that FNP allows you to "avoid being wounded". That's not what the rule actually says.
After FNP has resolved, you don't have permission to activate FNP just like you don't for ES.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




rigeld2 wrote:
People keep saying that FNP allows you to "avoid being wounded". That's not what the rule actually says.


"When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded."

These are the actual first 3 lines of the FNP rule.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/04 15:57:34


 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





copper.talos wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
People keep saying that FNP allows you to "avoid being wounded". That's not what the rule actually says.
After FNP has resolved, you don't have permission to activate FNP just like you don't for ES.


"When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded."

These are the actual first 3 lines of the FNP rule.

Correct!
Now, what does the rest of the rule actually say? You know, the part you're ignoring?

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




I am not ignoring anything. Apparently you were until now...
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

copper.talos wrote:
I am not ignoring anything. Apparently you were until now...

you are ignoring the part that treats the wound as saved.

Can you activate ES on a saved wound?

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




It's been answered 1000 gazillion times. You treat the wound as saved when FNP resolves, not before FNP even activates.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

copper.talos wrote:
It's been answered 1000 gazillion times. You treat the wound as saved when FNP resolves, not before FNP even activates.

You have to treat the wound as saved, which means there was no unsaved wound in the first place, which means you do not activate FNP, or Hexrifle, and you do not remove a wound from a model.

Plus you need to roll FNP first to see if you have actually saved the wound before you can apply any other effects, because we do not want to break any rules.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/04 16:11:12


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in my
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

 DeathReaper wrote:
copper.talos wrote:
I am not ignoring anything. Apparently you were until now...

you are ignoring the part that treats the wound as saved.

Can you activate ES on a saved wound?


No you can't, and I promise that I won't let anyone activate Entropic Strike after Feel No Pain treats the wound as saved.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 PrinceRaven wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
copper.talos wrote:
I am not ignoring anything. Apparently you were until now...

you are ignoring the part that treats the wound as saved.

Can you activate ES on a saved wound?


No you can't, and I promise that I won't let anyone activate Entropic Strike after Feel No Pain treats the wound as saved.

and remember that you have to roll for FNP first to see if the wound is saved or unsaved, then you can activate things that activate off of an unsaved wound.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




This EXACT argument you used against force weapons and it got shot down by the faq. You don't have to roll FNP to know if you have an unsaved wound or not. Otherwise you would get priority over force weapons too.

FNP activates on an unsaved wound, so at that point in time it's 100% certain that you do have an unsaved wound. And since ES and FNP have exactly the same trigger, there is no doubt whatsoever that if one activates so must the other.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Only because there was an FaQ about Force Weapons that said otherwise. ES is not a Force Weapon, the effects are not similar, stop trying to compare the two.

Had there not been an FaQ then FNP would have gone first as we need to determine if there actually is an unsaved wound, because we do not want to apply effects, roll FNP and then be breaking rules with the applied effects.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




 DeathReaper wrote:
Had there not been an FaQ then FNP would have gone first as we need to determine if there actually is an unsaved wound, because we do not want to apply effects, roll FNP and then be breaking rules with the applied effects.


Yes, but there is a faq so this line of thinking is wrong.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

There does not need to be an FAQ.

If, at the end of the phase a model is on his own (Lets say Mephiston) and he has a source of FNP (A Priest within 6 inches of him granting Meph FNP) Say a single scarab base survives Meph's attacks and hit and wound and meph makes all but one save. He rolls FNP and makes it the wound is treated as saved. At the end of the phase, if the model does not have an armor save we have to ask why? If the answer is because ES activated, that is not correct as the model has not suffered an unsaved wound as all the wounds inflicted were either saved or treated as saved.

This way we do not break any rules.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




 DeathReaper wrote:
There does not need to be an FAQ.

If, at the end of the phase a model is on his own (Lets say Mephiston) and he has a source of FNP (A Priest within 6 inches of him granting Meph FNP) Say a single scarab base survives Meph's attacks and hit and wound and meph makes all but one save. He rolls FNP and makes it the wound is treated as saved. At the end of the phase, if the model does not have an armor save we have to ask why? If the answer is because ES activated, that is not correct as the model has not suffered an unsaved wound as all the wounds inflicted were either saved or treated as saved.

This way we do not break any rules.


What rule dictates that you check why Meph had lost its save at the end of the phase?!!!

I don't know if you play by making random checks of rules at random times. I am sticking to making checks that I have permission from the rules ie does the model suffer an unsaved wound? Yes -> apply ES. If there was such a check at the end of the phase I'd agree with you, but there isn't...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/04 17:34:06


 
   
Made in de
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon






copper.talos wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
There does not need to be an FAQ.

If, at the end of the phase a model is on his own (Lets say Mephiston) and he has a source of FNP (A Priest within 6 inches of him granting Meph FNP) Say a single scarab base survives Meph's attacks and hit and wound and meph makes all but one save. He rolls FNP and makes it the wound is treated as saved. At the end of the phase, if the model does not have an armor save we have to ask why? If the answer is because ES activated, that is not correct as the model has not suffered an unsaved wound as all the wounds inflicted were either saved or treated as saved.

This way we do not break any rules.


What rule dictates that you check why Meph had lost its save at the end of the phase?!!!

I don't know if you play by making random checks of rules at random times. I am sticking to making checks that I have permission from the rules ie does the model suffer an unsaved wound? Yes -> apply ES. If there was such a check at the end of the phase I'd agree with you, but there isn't...


Im unsure which part of the rules lets you think that you resolve es before FNP. Could you please clarify that?
   
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




ES resolves "immediately" after an unsaved wound. FNP lacks the "immediately". So while ES and FNP get triggered by the same event, ES resolves first.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




"Because", seems to be the only answer. It is just assumed you CAN do so.

Personally given you can resolve both ways round, and one breaks the FNP rule, go with the way that breaks NO rules...
   
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delete

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/04 17:52:23


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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




copper.talos wrote:
ES resolves "immediately" after an unsaved wound. FNP lacks the "immediately". So while ES and FNP get triggered by the same event, ES resolves first.

That assumes things have to resolve sequentially, chronologically, which isnt supported except when two players have to resolve actions at the same time.
   
Made in gb
Tough Tyrant Guard





SHE-FI-ELD

Unfair to say the FAQ changed a rule when there were many people who thought it worked that way in the first place IMO.

Yes they can change rules, they can pick something up out of the blue and we can never see where the RAW might have come from, but in the case of FNP VS Force weapon, there was a rather long thread here on dakka before resolution (admittedly with about 4 different interpretations), if the rule is so clear cut there is generally not so much of a divide. If there has been a FAQ, what we can do is find out why we thought something worked one way, which has been FAQ'd another.

I've mostly left out the FAQ on force because I knew it wouldn't be taken seriously, not because I don't give merit to it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/04 18:02:27


It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.

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Made in de
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon






copper.talos wrote:
ES resolves "immediately" after an unsaved wound. FNP lacks the "immediately". So while ES and FNP get triggered by the same event, ES resolves first.


So if ES resolves immediately after an unsaved wound is suffered would you agree that the whole process of suffering an unsaved wound has to be done already? I mean ... if its not fully resolved how could an event trigger that happens after it? At least if your post is what the rule actually says (i dont have the book here right now).

The feel no pain rule on the other hand speaks about "when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound".

An argument could be made that feel no pain triggers before ES since ES triggers only after an unsaved wound. A moment where the process of suffering an unsaved wound is already completely resolved (which indisputably involves reducing the models remaining wounds by 1)
   
Made in us
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Chicago, IL

 Nem wrote:
Unfair to say the FAQ changed a rule when there were many people who thought it worked that way in the first place IMO.


It really did change the rule, as once FNP is successful you have to treat the wound as saved, which means nothing can be in effect that triggered off an unsaved wound since the wound was in fact saved.
I've mostly left out the FAQ on force because I know it wouldn't be taken seriously.

Well that is because it is not relevant at all since Force Weapons can Ignore FNP and ES can not ignore FNP.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




@Mywik There is no argument to be made for FNP to trigger before ES. When a model suffers an unsaved wound, every rule that triggers on unsaved wounds MUST activate at this point. That is the only time you have permission to make the check for their activation. Not when convenient, and certainly not at the end of the phase as deathreaper suggests. So ES and FNP activate together.

What is in question is how these 2 rules interract after activation. Pro ES side says "immediately" makes ES resolve first. Pro FNP side says that FNP may resolve later but is applied before it is activated.


 DeathReaper wrote:
It really did change the rule


The first faq never changes a rule. It merely clarifies the rule. A later faq may change a previous faq. Only then you can say that they changed a ruling

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/04 18:18:17


 
   
Made in gb
Tough Tyrant Guard





SHE-FI-ELD

 DeathReaper wrote:
 Nem wrote:
Unfair to say the FAQ changed a rule when there were many people who thought it worked that way in the first place IMO.


It really did change the rule, as once FNP is successful you have to treat the wound as saved, which means nothing can be in effect that triggered off an unsaved wound since the wound was in fact saved.
I've mostly left out the FAQ on force because I know it wouldn't be taken seriously.

Well that is because it is not relevant at all since Force Weapons can Ignore FNP and ES can not ignore FNP.


Well. At least one interpretation on FNP VS Force has very much relevance to this. The one I argued in fact.

I acknowledged and agreed that the Force Wound is not a wound that causes ID before the roll to activate is successful. So Force weapon rule before activation does not automatically stop FNP from being used (because the wound is not ID). I argued that 'Immediately' placed FW first, and that if successful FNP was now in the situation it could not be used because the wound is now ID.

Now with ES its much the same. Replace all FW with ES, and the last part to: can not stop ES from taking effect. That's basically where we (other pro ES) are.

It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.

Tactical objectives are fantastic 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





copper.talos wrote:
I am not ignoring anything. Apparently you were until now...

Does FNP allow you to avoid the wound or does it cause the wound to be saved?

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




copper.talos wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It really did change the rule


The first faq never changes a rule. It merely clarifies the rule. A later faq may change a previous faq. Only then you can say that they changed a ruling


Complete rubbish. Out of Range. Your position is debunked.
   
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




rigeld2 wrote:
Does FNP allow you to avoid the wound or does it cause the wound to be saved?


It causes the wound to be saved after FNP is resolved.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




People are acting like it black and white, it obviously is not based on this thread, and the fact that DR argues his way was right before it was FAQ'd to be wrong about FW and FNP shows that we never know how GW will rule.

From a RAW, I think in this case treating the wound as being saved makes the effect not happen. However I can 100% see GW and many TO's saying otherwise, and if you look at it from a nice fluffy stand point it makes sense.
   
 
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