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It could be that certain attributes of the existing market, on the selling end, are creating artificial limitations. The mistake is to assume "all things being equal" as inherent to markets.

 Manchu wrote:
It could be that certain attributes of the existing market, on the selling end, are creating artificial limitations. The mistake is to assume "all things being equal" as inherent to markets.

Then, as I said, someone can make an enormous killing with female-oriented tabletop wargaming miniatures.

I think that we've never seen such an approach is likely indicative of how successful the people in the actual industry believe it would be. If there's no consumer demand, your product's not going to sell, no matter how PC it is.

Well, I'm interested seeing how Victoria's female soldiers will sell. They're pretty much the reasonably attired and non-sexualised female models many people have been asking for. (Though if my girlfriend is any indication, some women might be more interested sexy male miniatures, rather than sensibly clad female miniatures...)

 Seaward wrote:
If there's no consumer demand, your product's not going to sell, no matter how PC it is.

I quite agree. My point is that consumer demand does not exist separately from the rest of the market.

 Crimson wrote:
Well, I'm interested seeing how Victoria's female soldiers will sell. They're pretty much the reasonably attired and non-sexualised female models many people have been asking for.

If I were a betting man I'd wager that they do well (and hopefully well enough for Victoria Lamb to sculpt female variants for all of her sci-fi army model ranges). It will be nice to have a multi-part miniature range with appropriately attired (for combat) females that can be used as a counter point to the argument that war gamers only want pin-ups in their armies.

 Crimson wrote:
(Though if my girlfriend is any indication, some women might be more interested sexy male miniatures, rather than sensibly clad female miniatures...)

This reminded me of an interaction between me and my girlfriend a few years back. My girlfriend was very involved with the initial Horus Heresy novels and liked one of the characters enough that I was almost able to talk her into starting a 40k army. It was around the time the current Space Wolves miniatures were released and the character she liked was attached to the Luna? Wolves, so I thought a Space Wolf army would be the logical suggestion to make. She took one look at the Space Wolf models' heads and rejected them outright because they were not "beautiful" enough. Perplexed by the comment I asked her to elaborate. Her explanation was that in the novels the Space Marines were described as being so perfect that they had an other worldly beauty to them--and that striking beauty was not represented in the miniatures so she wasn't interested in having an army of "ugly" raging Space Vikings.

So, long winded anecdote aside, I think there is something missing in the offerings of miniatures that makes grabbing the attention of some female gamers' difficult. It might be not enough beauty in the miniatures for some women, or it may be too much cleavage for others. I hope discussions like these will become less necessary in the next 10-15 years as more women enter into the gaming industry and produce products appealing to both men and women. It will take a leap of faith for some companies, but hopefully offerings like those of Victoria Lamb will pave the way for others to make war gaming less of a boys club and more welcoming to women.

LOL wtf HH novel was she reading. IIRC the early novels (e.g., Horus Rising) talked about how weird looking SM were to "motrals." Think she may have read the beauty part into it.

You saw this:


She saw this:


Then again, 40k does have Sanguinius and Fulgrim -- pictured below:

Enjoy an exalt for the Sanguinius and Fulgrim pics Manchu

Though it is a fair assessment that I believe the EC were referred to with their otherworldly beauty in Fulgrim

 Alfndrate wrote:
Enjoy an exalt for the Sanguinius and Fulgrim pics Manchu

Well thanks and all but they're just from the FW website, I think.

 mattyrm wrote:
this whole bad-ass women thing is a Hollywood construct which has the unfortunate side effect of making of tiny skinny gorgeous women who look like Scarlett Johansson get drunk and then pick fights with men and promptly get knocked out.

Well, it is me, or is getting drunk before picking fight a stupid, stupid, stupid idea ?
Personally, I'd rather start fight sober, against drunk people. If they did drugs, it's even better. If they have already passed out, it's a sure win !

xruslanx wrote:
It's not sexist, since men and women are not the same. Men do not have wombs, and women do not have the capacity for physical exertion that men do. Men are physically and emotionally more inclined towards warfare than women are, why shouldn't our culture expect them to be warriors?

Black people shouldn't be able to vote. That's not racist, since black people and white people are not the same. Black people have black skin, and are not as intelligent as white men.
See, I even included some actual, real difference between black people and white people, so the other difference I speak about must be true too !
Or maybe that's just some stupid racist bs. How could I know ?

 Crimson wrote:
I'm sure you wouldn't dare to suggest same practice regarding ethnicity.

I guess you mean race. Ethnicity is used a lot as an euphemism, but it's not what it means !
For instance, my ethnicity is French, but according to, say, Adolf Hitler, my race would be Jewish. Ethnicity is about culture, race is about some physical characteristic.
(Not that I'm arguing for discrimination based on culture, of course, but I guess you were thinking about approximately just what I said above.)
(Also, very bad example because “Jewish race” is a joke, given the phenotypal diversity between Jews. Seriously, Jews from Russia and Falasha being the same race ? How could anyone ever believe that bs? )

 Riquende wrote:
Everybody else, please don't conflate xruslanx's views with that of the majority of the UK.

Don't worry pal, we have TFG about everywhere else too. Even a friend of mine can spit out quite a bunch of bs on that matter. Well, and on a bunch of other matters too.


I would really like to know, what would you people think about this, if it was some actual official artwork rather than a poorly photoshoped (well, actually gimped) artwork :

See, it's an Inquisitor with some bandanna and a cap. It's totally “realistic”, since an Inquisitor in the desert might find the bandanna useful, and maybe she comes from some culture in the Imperium where bandannas and caps are symbols of power. So, yeah, totally realistic. It's also not sexist. And if anyone think it is, I will gimp the picture again to add a cap and a bandanna to the guy too.
I have nothing against caps and bandannas. I actually enjoy bands like Six Ft Ditch, who wears lots of them. I would even say that eons of evolution have genetically programmed all men to enjoy caps and bandannas .
Is this good, though ? Are those cloth fitted to convey the impression an Inquisitor is supposed to convey ?

That's how I feel about the boob-windowsitor.

I'm confused about why this thread is 17 pages long.

Sexual objectification of women for profit is widespread across western culture. It stops when it stops being profitable.

It's fan-service, its for-profit, and it sells.

It does in music, video games, movies, TV, written fiction, and wargaming.

Is it somehow more complicated than this?

I don't know which novels she read, but it was the first four or five in the series. I haven't read them so I can only go off what she said. I think the character she liked was Lokken? Logan? I don't know.

Well done with the Beastly poster. That really got me laughing and hit a little too close to home (she loves crap shows like The Vampire Diaries and The Originals).

Her poor taste in television aside, the minis didn't resonate with her and so she wasn't interested in starting an army. Obviously something is amiss, since we have numerous threads every year with war gamers asking how they can get their girlfriends/wives/daughters into miniature gaming, so there is a desire on male gamers to have more women involved in the hobby. If the minis aren't appealing (for whatever reason) then there is work to be done. If it is a cultural issue (war gaming culture, not Western) then there is work that needs to be done as well. I think the answer lies somewhere between the two issues, in that the minis/artwork portraying women wouldn't necessarily be as heavily criticized if the war gamer culture was perceived to be less male, and female gamers wouldn't be put off on joining the hobby if they didn't have to run the gauntlet of perceived sexism within the miniature war gaming culture.


*edited for typos*

Gwyidion wrote:
I'm confused about why this thread is 17 pages long.

"I didn't read the thread, so I'm going to repeat an idea that has occurred at least once on every single one of those 17 pages".

 Ouze wrote:

Gwyidion wrote:
I'm confused about why this thread is 17 pages long.

"I didn't read the thread, so I'm going to repeat an idea that has occurred at least once on every single one of those 17 pages".

Oh gosh, if only you were right!! Instead you contribute nothing.

I did read the thread.

My post is correct. I intended it to bring the focus to where it belongs, which is the almighty dollar.

Money is why women are sexually objectified throughout western culture.

It isn't much more complicated than that. The amount of people GW will lose by using cleavage and sexual objectification of women is smaller than the amount of people who will be drawn in to buy their product by the same practice.

All that remains is the debate over the appropriateness of this practice. Of course it marginalizes women, and of course in an equitable world this wouldn't happen.

That means nothing. The world isn't equitable.

Gwyidion wrote:
The amount of people GW will lose by using cleavage and sexual objectification of women is smaller than the amount of people who will be drawn in to buy their product by the same practice.

No problem. Just keep all of it into the Slaanesh and possibly Dark Eldar side. That's where they rightfully belong. And I'm pretty sure the boob-windowsitor is too tame to bring in anyone, and still too ridiculous not to put off some people.

Gwyidion wrote:
Money is why women are sexually objectified throughout western culture.

You say that as if it was both "natural" and inevitable.

Gwyidion wrote:
I did read the thread.

Then why are you asking why it's more complicated then it is as the last line of your post? There are literally hundreds of posts in this thread with different perspectives.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Gwyidion wrote:
The amount of people GW will lose by using cleavage and sexual objectification of women is smaller than the amount of people who will be drawn in to buy their product by the same practice.

No problem. Just keep all of it into the Slaanesh and possibly Dark Eldar side. That's where they rightfully belong. And I'm pretty sure the boob-windowsitor is too tame to bring in anyone, and still too ridiculous not to put off some people.

Slaanesh and DE contain pretty good examples of how art, models, and media in general can depict barely-clad female bodies without being sexualized.

Another example is the SI body issue when they have naked female athletes. Nude, not sexualized.

The difference between sexualized depictions of individuals and non-sexual depictions of individuals in sparse clothing is not subtle - at all. The differences between the inquisitor and catachans in this thread is the perfect example of these differences.

The inquisitor is more covered than the IG catachans, but the inquisitor is undeniably more sexualized. She is passive, breasts accentuated, wearing armor-ized versions of modern lingerie instead of adapted versions of male armor.

The IG catachans are wearing less clothing, but are active, attacking, displaying power, are the sole characters in the media, and are even facing the point of view directly, as opposed to at an angle.

Rather than abstract design conventions which contribute to the inquisitor's outfit (the overall pseudo-gothic style of 40k), this image accesses the brain-stem of the viewer; it is not processed by higher brain function.

Gwyidion wrote:
Slaanesh and DE contain pretty good examples of how art, models, and media in general can depict barely-clad female bodies without being sexualized.

I disagree, especially with Slaanesh.

Gwyidion wrote:
Another example is the SI body issue when they have naked female athletes.

SI ?

Gwyidion wrote:
The difference between sexualized depictions of individuals and non-sexual depictions of individuals in sparse clothing is not subtle - at all.

Yeah. Since you read the thread, I posted picture of two very obvious depiction of non-sexual nudes. One from what is maybe the only official GW artwork featuring a frontal view of a fully nude woman.

So I think I'm able to make the distinction by myself, but thank you anyway.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Gwyidion wrote:
Another example is the SI body issue when they have naked female athletes.

SI ? .

Sports Illustrated.

Although the contention that the females in that issue are are "Nude, not sexualized"; is a little... dubious. Well, the latter element, anyway - what sport does Kate Upton partake of?

SI = Sports Illustrated, a popular sports magazine here in the States. Well known for its highly sexualized swimsuit edition.

Edit: Fething ninja'd by 3 seconds!

xruslanx wrote:
I am simply saying that it is a man's duty to protect his family and his country.

Maybe in 1914 it was, and we can see where it got them. What passing-bells for those that die as cattle? indeed. I'd much rather follow a rather different heroic example.

@HSoO
My response wasn't really intended to inform you specifically.

@Ouze

I didn't know they did one of Upton. I don't read every SI, of course.

The example that sticks out in my head is of hope solo.

 Ouze wrote:
Sports Illustrated.

 Alfndrate wrote:
SI = Sports Illustrated, an popular sports magazine here in the States. Well known for its highly sexualized swimsuit edition.

Thanks !

 Alfndrate wrote:
Edit: Fething ninja'd by 3 seconds!

You must never hesitate.

Gwyidion wrote:
@HSoO
My response wasn't really intended to inform you specifically.

Ok. Still pretty sure Slaanesh daemons are supposed to be at the same time repulsive and attractive, notably in a sexual manner.

Gwyidion wrote:
@Ouze

I didn't know they did one of Upton. I don't read every SI, of course.

The example that sticks out in my head is of hope solo.

Similarly, I'm not clear on what "the body issue" is. If it's distinct from the swimsuit issue, than I think your point stands and I'm wrong.

I apologize, upon searching, it is ESPN's body issue, not SI. I conflated the two publications.

The body issue is intended to feature the physique and fitness of world-class athletes.

The images are quite distinct from SI's swimsuit edition. I won't attach them here, as i'm posting from work. The subjects of the photos are still naked.

OK, I'm not at all familiar with them. I'm similarly situated so I'll check them out when I get home.


In my bunk.

I haven't read the whole thread (stopped at page 12 or so), but I am curious...
...if oversexualization is the problem keeping girls away from 40k and Fantasy, why don't we see more women playing historicals?

Flames of War has a female Russian tank-driver Hero (Mariya) who is pretty freaking awesome, and her model is just a woman in tanker's overalls climbing out of the driver's hatch (if you must model her at all; a T-34 with a closed hatch would work fine).

My Russian artillery staff teams come with women as radio operators; the only reason you can tell they're women is that they have longer hair poking out from under their caps.

Needless to say, neither of these is sexualized yet women are MORE conspicuously absent from Historical gaming than from Fantasy/Sci-fi!

xruslanx wrote:

Most men are more aggressive than most women, most men are stronger than most women. Still, some women are more aggressive/stronger than some or even most men. To judge individuals based on the averages of some they group they happen to belong is bollocks. It's like banning all Asians from playing basketball because on average they're rather short.

Well, that's just how I was raised. You might be cool hearing a bump in the night and sending down your pregnant girlfriend to investigate it, but I'm not. I don't even understand your viewpoint really - you must put considerable effort into not differentiating or grouping men and women, certainly my culture is full of (usually accurate) gender stereotypes. Maybe Finland is some fantasy wonderland where women are build like gak brick houses and men are dainty or something.

Really? Look, your just going w-a-a-a-a-a-y too far there. And as for your cultural point? Well, whilst i see it as my duty as the English Gentleman that i am, there are women serving n the armed forces. Women are, although ill admit not as much as men, performing the dangerous jobs. And if my ex went down to investigate a bump in the night she would go armed with a sword or a bat and i would not like to be the one on the recieving end. Trust me, she is vicous when roused.
So, your cultural point is balls.

As for the rest of you:
There are non over sexualised female fantasy figures out there. In My example below 2 of the figures are female. Take a good long look.

These are Forsaken Bane troopers, for Darkage, another grimdark post-apoc game. The Forsaken is the religous nutcase faction. Make of this what you will.