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Hello Dakka, I recently got my hands on a Defense Line for my guardsmen, however I seem to have a major issue every game... No matter what I do, the enemy seems to always be at least somewhat obstructed from my own line. This is especially bad for my heavy weapon teams, if I want to fire them I'm almost guaranteed to be giving away a 4+ cover. Even if I put my guardsmen directly up to the line, the tall parts are still enough to give cover saves to the edge of the unit and all I can do is focus fire the few with a clear view from every model. Am I doing something fundamentally wrong or do I need to reevaluate how I'm using the line?

Keep defense line with your unit, do not put it closer to enemy so they can use it.
Put heavy squad base to touch with defense line then your squad will take cover save... And it won't allow enemy use cover save from it.

But the barrel of the autocannon or lascannon physically on top of the wall, poking over the wall. Enemy shooting is resolved against your base. Your shooting is coming from the barrel of your heavy gun.

Also, its pretty much understood that guardsmen can see and shoot their rifles over the wall when they are right up next to it, as the wall even has slits in there for they to poke the barrel of the rifle through and shoot. If your opponent is forcing you to give him a cover save while your up next to your own defense line, your opponent is in the wrong, and a total ass.

 ultimentra wrote:
But the barrel of the autocannon or lascannon physically on top of the wall, poking over the wall. Enemy shooting is resolved against your base. Your shooting is coming from the barrel of your heavy gun.

Also, its pretty much understood that guardsmen can see and shoot their rifles over the wall when they are right up next to it, as the wall even has slits in there for they to poke the barrel of the rifle through and shoot. If your opponent is forcing you to give him a cover save while your up next to your own defense line, your opponent is in the wrong, and a total ass.

The above is wrong, you always use TLOS from the model's eyes for infantry. Never the gun barrels.

Yeah, that's the problem. Going by TLOS it seems overly difficult to get every single model a totally clear view

 Lord Yayula wrote:
I found this at warseer when 6th hit the shelves and it has proven of much help since then:

"I've done the math based on the low part of the Aegis (see pic below) and the target model must be at least 1.87 times further away from the shooter than the shooter is to the Aegis or the target will get a cover save. So for example, if a model (standard marine size here) is 1" away from the low part of the wall then the target must be further than 1.87" from the shooter or it'll get a cover save. I didn't do the math for the high part of the wall as it is taller than a standard marine and would always provide cover to a target if the shooting model is not in contact with the wall (and looking through the view hole thing). Personally I'd round the number to a factor of 2" to error in the side of the target and make the math easier (so if you're 2" from the wall your target must be at least 4" away to lose a cover save)."




Pretty much if you are behind the ADL measure the distance to it and the measure it from the ADL to the enemy model if the distance is less than twice yours then he gets the cover save, it is more than twice the distance he gets not.

unless youre not pressed against the adl he shouldnt be getting a cover save from it period. Playing it that way because your model happens to be modeled slightly smaller than most would mean ALL terrain is pointless unless its a random rock or area terrain and not a forest.

Even the forest rules the fine line of the text really needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Technically the entirety of 6th edition cover is flawed as you nearly always are obstructed by your own defenses. Common sense would dictate that if im shooting out a window of a wall while resting on the frame, the wall does not give you a cover save. Its pretty TFGT material to claim it does no matter how "technically true" it is.

(Also on the forest comment case youre wondering what im talking, it specifically says if you draw line of sight through a forest you give the target a 5+. it says NOTHING about if youre IN the forest, or how far you gotta shoot before it takes effect. Technically even touching the edge of a forest, you give a 5+ cover to your target)

Best way to avoid the ADL though, get on higher ground, and luagh as it no longer gives cover to half the squad, then focus fire on the ones out of cover for easy kills, and watch the ones IN cover run XD

 ultimentra wrote:
But the barrel of the autocannon or lascannon physically on top of the wall, poking over the wall. Enemy shooting is resolved against your base. Your shooting is coming from the barrel of your heavy gun.

Also, its pretty much understood that guardsmen can see and shoot their rifles over the wall when they are right up next to it, as the wall even has slits in there for they to poke the barrel of the rifle through and shoot. If your opponent is forcing you to give him a cover save while your up next to your own defense line, your opponent is in the wrong, and a total ass.

That was an old 7th ed Fantasy rule (I think it was 7th ed)

Cheers

Andrew

This largely depends on the models...termagants will get cover from it even easier.

Wrong models are and have always been able to be assumed to look out windows and over terrain. Otherwise a prone or crouching modeled army would never be able to do anything in a city fight board. That said, stay base to base with the wall and the enemy cant use it for cover.

Col. Dash wrote:
Wrong models are and have always been able to be assumed to look out windows and over terrain. Otherwise a prone or crouching modeled army would never be able to do anything in a city fight board. That said, stay base to base with the wall and the enemy cant use it for cover.

In 5th I thought it was that if you were within 2" of a wall or window you could see through/over then it granted no cover to the enemy. It also granted no cover to you during return fire.

As it currently stands I don't remember these rules existing in 6th, though I could easily be wrong.

Really, in 5th it gave you no returning cover? that makes no sense. Then again ignoring a 3" wall with a 1" model doesnt make sense either lol.

To my knowledge (terrain rules are kinda spread all over the place) 6th is purely true line of sight. Nothing about ignoring walls or anything, far as i know. However ive never come across anyone that wasnt a total dick to begin with that didnt agree that if you were up against a window you could shoot out of the damn thing regardless of how small you were lol.

This thread seems appropriate for my question regarding grots and the ADL. Anyways i bought an ADL not too long ago to convert and use for my ork army, the original plan was to let my objective holding grot back fielders to man the quad gun. However, on flat terrain the grots are too short to see above the walls. Does this mean i can't use grots on my ADl?

Yeah, technically your grots can't see over the wall, but your guns might be able to (if we are talking about Big Gunz).

The True Line of Sight rules right now do not work very well with ADLs. GW needs to FAQ it or change the rule, because the closest rule I can find about it is that when your in base to base contact with it and get charged, if they touch the wall they ignore the wall, but still count as attacking a unit in terrain (Init 1 unless using offensive grenades).

All GW needs to do is say a unit in base to base contact with the wall ignores it concerning LoS for shooting.

As for figs like Heavy Weapons Squads and the like that have guns sticking past the base, turn them. Remember, it really doesn't matter which way your model is facing, they see and shoot 360 degrees.

One solution I have done for IG Heavy Weapons Teams (and so I can make more of them) is use only one kneeling guy (the gunner) and have the guy next to him standing (with a lasgun and or field glasses). This will give me a fig that can see over the wall for sure.

For other units like Grots, I suggest getting sandbags (like from the IG heavy weapons teams or make your own with greenstuff), barrels, boxes, and the like and put this on the base with the grot standing on it to make the model taller.

Just remember the draw back to doing this is that if you make your fig taller to look over terrain, your making them easier to be seen to be shot at.

Just remember EarlofBurger that maybe your Grots can't shoot over the wall, but that also means they can not be shot either. Your opponent will have to shell them with indirect fire, assault them, or more so the wall is not blocking TLoS to shoot them.

Yeah. Imagine Tyranid rippers manning the comms relay behind an ADL. They can't be seen -as they are too short- so can't be targeted, and are allowed to operate the comms relay (but not the gun).

It's silly, but follows the rules.

Do coms relays need manned?!

None of you talk about model are not motion. It sound like you all said it cannot imagine animation in motion. Grot can climb on top of defence line to shoot out.. Or build a small yellow page for grot to stand on it if your opponent are brainless!

any model you build do not affect any rule. It should be in motion. " gone to ground" imagine all model just lay down, some player said that if model cannot lay on it belly do not count for "gone to ground" It was annoy to see any non-imagine person make a in-game rule error.

remember, this is wargame. Any model are base to base with defence line or building count as model flatting against wall or duck below defence line or low wall. If there are hole or post hole then ANY model can shoot through it even if it was too low for model head to see through or too high for weapon to go through. They are motion, they can rise their weapon to their head. Or lower to their feet if there are hole in ground floor wall.

Solidcrash wrote:
None of you talk about model are not motion. It sound like you all said it cannot imagine animation in motion. Grot can climb on top of defence line to shoot out.. Or build a small yellow page for grot to stand on it if your opponent are brainless!

any model you build do not affect any rule. It should be in motion. " gone to ground" imagine all model just lay down, some model cannot lay on it belly do not count. It was annoy to see any non-imagine person make a in-game rule.

remember, this is wargame. Any model are base to base with defence line or building count as model flatting against wall or duck below defence line or low wall. If there are hole or post hole then ANY model can shoot through it even if it was too low for model head to see through or too high for weapon to go through. They are motion, they can rise their weapon to their head. Or lower to their feet if there are hole in ground floor wall.

Motion has nothing to do with it. The rule is True Line of Sight on page 8, 12, and 16 of the base rule book. I am sorry if you don't like the rule, but that is how it works. You can only shoot the figs that have actual line of sight to at least one enemy fig, you measure from your fig's eyes, and you only kill the figs you can actually see.

How you model your figs is up to you, but it determines how well you shoot and how you get shot.

 BlkTom wrote:

Solidcrash wrote:
None of you talk about model are not motion. It sound like you all said it cannot imagine animation in motion. Grot can climb on top of defence line to shoot out.. Or build a small yellow page for grot to stand on it if your opponent are brainless!

any model you build do not affect any rule. It should be in motion. " gone to ground" imagine all model just lay down, some model cannot lay on it belly do not count. It was annoy to see any non-imagine person make a in-game rule.

remember, this is wargame. Any model are base to base with defence line or building count as model flatting against wall or duck below defence line or low wall. If there are hole or post hole then ANY model can shoot through it even if it was too low for model head to see through or too high for weapon to go through. They are motion, they can rise their weapon to their head. Or lower to their feet if there are hole in ground floor wall.

Motion has nothing to do with it. The rule is True Line of Sight on page 8, 12, and 16 of the base rule book. I am sorry if you don't like the rule, but that is how it works. You can only shoot the figs that have actual line of sight to at least one enemy fig, you measure from your fig's eyes, and you only kill the figs you can actually see.

How you model your figs is up to you, but it determines how well you shoot and how you get shot.

Hmm, what a brilliant idea. Shall I glue all of my space marine model on it belly, and build my own defence line that was 4" tall with "fire slot post" at low as foot that my space marine able to shoot through. Then and play against with you and find out what you said?

Update:
See, no reply for half hour... All you can say is I am cheater and no fun to play with... This is not my cup of tea.

Your prone model can stand up, rest weapon on low level wall or window... And can duck to gain cover save if your "standing" model are at 50% cover from low wall/window. Prone model still can stand or duck and still can take hit from enemy if prond model are unable to see if other same type of model are standing. Because in w40k too many bullet spray everywhere and if prone model get up and check for line of fire... But enemy fire at this model and blow out in a gut... Or headshot? Or his hand blow away so he unable use weapon. Enemy saw prone model before model move at full 6" movement then this prone model count as stand up and run.

Same story to grot, if wall are same height as grot then grot can either jump up and shoot, or grot stand on other grot to shoot out. That mean enemy still can shoot at grot. Because enemy may have right timing to shoot when grot jump up and blow out in a gut.

Before anyone reply about this "how you build your model" please read this topic, same story.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/562446.page

100% with you Solidcrash. Models have always been assumed to be able to lean out of windows and shoot over walls even if modeled low to the ground. Explain how the old metal catachan snipers in the prone could shoot out of windows and be fired back at, or heavy weapon teams on those silly big bases. The models represent the figures but they are not static in game.

 BlkTom wrote:

Motion has nothing to do with it. The rule is True Line of Sight on page 8, 12, and 16 of the base rule book. I am sorry if you don't like the rule, but that is how it works. You can only shoot the figs that have actual line of sight to at least one enemy fig, you measure from your fig's eyes, and you only kill the figs you can actually see.

Exactly, this is why my imperial guard army has nothing but lying down guys so they can't be shot at all behind their aegis. I also have a magnetized aegis so that I can deploy it vertically if I need to create a 100% LOS obscuring bit of terrain for my daemon prince. Alternatively I can create a small fully enclosed box to put a platoon command squad in meaning it cannot be seen at all so is invincible to everything but barrage (although I have had to debate with opponents on whether, if a guardsman is in an enclosed box that nobody can see into, does he exist? I say that if he doesn't exist then the objective inside the box also doesn't exist and since they are both in the non-existance area together they are probably within 3".

Remember the aegis just has to be deployed touching at least one other wall section so this is totally legit.

 BlkTom wrote:

Motion has nothing to do with it. The rule is True Line of Sight on page 8, 12, and 16 of the base rule book. I am sorry if you don't like the rule, but that is how it works. You can only shoot the figs that have actual line of sight to at least one enemy fig, you measure from your fig's eyes, and you only kill the figs you can actually see.

Good thing my Carnifex has two heads and twelve eyes...well...eleven eyes...one of them has a knife in it.

Personally I and my friends go by what seems to us to be RAI:

If you're up against the ADL, or within about an inch of it, and your opponent is further away than you are, you're guaranteed the cover save, your opponent can claim none. Additionally, unless there is some kind of rule-trickery going on, the unit getting the cover from the ADL is assumed to be capable of firing over it (Measure distances from base to base), unless it's a vehicle that clearly can't get it's sponsons over the wall.

If both of you are quite a distance away, and the object is obscuring the target, cover saves may be applied depending on relevant rules.

Solidcrash wrote:

Hmm, what a brilliant idea. Shall I glue all of my space marine model on it belly, and build my own defence line that was 4" tall with "fire slot post" at low as foot that my space marine able to shoot through. Then and play against with you and find out what you said?

Update:
See, no reply for half hour... All you can say is I am cheater and no fun to play with... This is not my cup of tea.

Your prone model can stand up, rest weapon on low level wall or window... And can duck to gain cover save if your "standing" model are at 50% cover from low wall/window. Prone model still can stand or duck and still can take hit from enemy if prond model are unable to see if other same type of model are standing. Because in w40k too many bullet spray everywhere and if prone model get up and check for line of fire... But enemy fire at this model and blow out in a gut... Or headshot? Or his hand blow away so he unable use weapon. Enemy saw prone model before model move at full 6" movement then this prone model count as stand up and run.

Same story to grot, if wall are same height as grot then grot can either jump up and shoot, or grot stand on other grot to shoot out. That mean enemy still can shoot at grot. Because enemy may have right timing to shoot when grot jump up and blow out in a gut.

Before anyone reply about this "how you build your model" please read this topic, same story.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/562446.page

You give me a page number where it says this, and then you can say your right. Till then, if you play in a tourney, this is how you do it because this is how the rules are printed. And I didn't respond because I went to bed, was like 6 AM. And before you cry boo hoo and that I am a rules lawyer, you have to remember that if your responding to someone's question to have to give accurate information. Otherwise all your doing is spreading a lie. Like I said, prove your point with a page number and prove me wrong. I want to be wrong in this case, I want you to find something I missed so I do not have to worry about mis-playing the ADL.

And I didn't call you a cheater, you called yourself one.

wtnind wrote:

Exactly, this is why my imperial guard army has nothing but lying down guys so they can't be shot at all behind their aegis. I also have a magnetized aegis so that I can deploy it vertically if I need to create a 100% LOS obscuring bit of terrain for my daemon prince. Alternatively I can create a small fully enclosed box to put a platoon command squad in meaning it cannot be seen at all so is invincible to everything but barrage (although I have had to debate with opponents on whether, if a guardsman is in an enclosed box that nobody can see into, does he exist? I say that if he doesn't exist then the objective inside the box also doesn't exist and since they are both in the non-existance area together they are probably within 3".

Remember the aegis just has to be deployed touching at least one other wall section so this is totally legit.

Base rulebook FAQ says you can not stack your ADL, that it has to be end to end. Does anyone know the rules to this game? I think I will start ignored 'Gets Hot' because my guy would throw away his gun before it burns him. That is how you people are sounding... sheesh.

Q: Can you deploy the Aegis Defence Line sections in two or
more groups of two or more sections apiece (this way, they will
still be in base contact with at least one other section)? (p114)
A: No – the Aegis defence line sections must be deployed
in an unbroken chain, though they can be connected end-to-
end such as in the example shown on page 114.

 BlkTom wrote:


Base rulebook FAQ says you can not stack your ADL, that it has to be end to end. Does anyone know the rules to this game? I think I will start ignored 'Gets Hot' because my guy would throw away his gun before it burns him. That is how you people are sounding... sheesh.

Q: Can you deploy the Aegis Defence Line sections in two or
more groups of two or more sections apiece (this way, they will
still be in base contact with at least one other section)? (p114)
A: No – the Aegis defence line sections must be deployed
in an unbroken chain, though they can be connected end-to-
end such as in the example shown on page 114.

That FAQ has 0% to do with stacking, it is 100% to do with splitting up your aegis and having small sections deployed all over the place. The FAQ says that the line must be unbroken. It then makes an irrelevant statement about you being allowed to join up the ends if you want (nothing in the ruleset prevented it before).

The BRB says:
"Composition:Up to 4 long and 4 short Aegis defence line sections. Each section of Aegis defence line must be placed in base contact with at least one other section". Ergo as long as the base is touching it is totally fine. you can happily build a big 3D pile as long as the base is touching at least one other bit and that you can follow an unbroken line along them! So go ahead and magnitise the bases so you can build your very own tower of piza.

Obviously my post was in jest, anyone who tried to do such a thing would rapidly run out of opponents. Does anyone know how to take a joke?

Your definition of 'End to End' and 'in a unbroken chain' is a pretty hard twisting of the wording. Maybe it is a English thing.

Man, this is such a heated debate. Honestly if someone told me that my one kneeling sniper scout couldn't see over his own ADL and he was that adamant about it, you can bet your butt I'm not playing with that guy ever again. Even at tournaments nobody has had this big a problem with ADL's.

By RAW yes you can't see the enemy model or you will be giving him a cover save.

HIWPI, if you can see me I can see you.
For the cover save though depends if it is a tournament and if it mattered or not.

i prefer to the rule of "have fun" followed by the "good sportsmanship" rule. If you follow these rules, and make sensible judgments then this would not be a problem.

Seriously though, there are tons of standard models with goofy positioning because they look cool. if you were to assume that these are static positions, such as with the old crouched snipers, or the Steel Legion heavy bolter HWS, then you might as well just throw them away because "rule X on page Y says vaguely that this may or may not be case." If you were to take this literally AND it was accepted then everyone would model for advantage, which we all know is wrong and a total jerk move.

Lesson of the story is, don't be a jerk, have fun! and frankly think about it, if i was behind a wall, shooting over the wall, most of my body is covered, and the person im shooting at in the middle of a field, is in fact NOT COVERED by the wall i am currently resting my gun against.