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Yeah, the Enslavers aren't squatted, Trazyn has one pinned to his wall.

Oh, no, from a narrative standpoint, he writes utter gak. On a personal level, things aren't so bad. But when you look at the bigger picture, it's incredibly bland, familiar. Directly the opposite of the old codex, in fact. And equally as unfulfilling. The fact he gave Necrons personality isn't an issue, it's definitely a plus. The fact he gave them motivation we can understand/connect to is. Why the need to humanize menacing millions-of-years-old alien robots? Why do I need to know what drives them? We share -nothing- in common, as human motivation is always shaped by its weaknesses. In fact, all organic life works that way. Evolution is based on that assumption. I don't share -any- weaknesses with a robot, why would I understand it?

The appeal with Tyranids is that they are very easy to understand and their motivation frightens us precisely because we understand it. But Tyranids are evolution incarnate. They're literally the perfect organism. A force of nature. The Necrons are the extreme opposite. Their motivation we can never understand(or shouldn't) and therein lies their cold menace and their appeal. They can have personalities gallore, as long as they're not "human" ones.

Imagine if in the new codex Tyranids, they just retconned the Hive Mind and gave each Tyranid Hive Tyrant a personality(not intelligence, personality, completely independent from a higher purpose) of its own and a little litter of Tyranids of its own? And they fight little bug wars between each other(kinda like Worms video game, without the nukes) while making deals and shaking hands(claws, tentacles, pincers, whathaveyou) with Space Marines over victory well-fought against their common enemy? Yuck. And make no mistake, if this was a Mat Ward story, Swarmlord, as the speshulest bug that he is, would invade Holy Terra single-handedly fighting back the entire sector's defenses, lay his eggs in the Big E's lap and then steal his toenail before escaping unharmed with his trophy.

The Oldcrons were Terminators. The silent, implacable enemy marching shoulder-to-shoulder across the battlefield to destroy everything before them, against which nothing could stand.

Imagine if in the new codex Tyranids, they just retconned the Hive Mind and gave each Tyranid Hive Tyrant a personality(not intelligence, personality, completely independent from a higher purpose) of its own and a little litter of Tyranids of its own? And they fight little bug wars between each other(kinda like Worms video game, without the nukes) while making deals and shaking hands(claws, tentacles, pincers, whathaveyou) with Space Marines over victory well-fought against their common enemy? Yuck. And make no mistake, if this was a Mat Ward story, Swarmlord, as the speshulest bug that he is, would invade Holy Terra single-handedly fighting back the entire sector's defenses, lay his eggs in the Big E's lap and then steal his toenail before escaping unharmed with his trophy.

Inter-fleet wars between Hive Fleets already happen. It's a "weapons test" program, and the Fleet that wins eats the other one for its biomass, as it is obviously the superior organism.


The Blood Angel/Necron alliance thing... makes sense, really. Which would you rather have? The Blood Angels getting wiped the feth out because the Necrons destroyed them after wiping out the bugs, or that both sides with draw with a measure of mutual respect for the other's combat prowess.

In the former case, the BA probably would have withdrawn, rather than fight the Necrons and the Tyranids, let the bugs take the planet, and then Exterminatused it, killing two Xenos with one Cyclonic Torpedo. And so you're left with another Space Marine fan-spank victory where they trounce two Xenos armies in their spare time. Boring.

@Araenion is right on the spot there.
I particularly like his comparison between the Reapers and the 3rd edition Necrons. Both were clearly inspired by Lovecraft and are quite similar. They are both "harvesting", they are sentient machines, they both have been dormant for aeons, god-like technology, want to create hybrids with humans, destroy life while planting the seed for the next harvest...

1: Ward writes as a fanboy. There is no mystery, no sense of a hidden truth. Everything seems like an episode of the Power Rangers. And better not to start pointing out the blatant internal contradictions, the total lack of sense, the butchering of any previously established background, the absolute absence of any reference to any sci-fi setting, the total failure at grasping the basic scientific concepts (that galactic empire without FTL!!) and and and and and I think you get it. I am not good at writing in English because it is not my mother tongue, but I can easily see the breach between Alessio Cavatore or Kelly (neither of them are particularly good writers) and Ward.

2: Ward has a vivid imagination. If you manage to get past his writing, he is really good at creating amazing visions. Most of the stuff in the GK Codex seems like something taken from a legend. That planet sized Necron machine or the story of the Silent King are awe inspiring. And he creates things, he is not copy pasting stuff from other places. Finally, his rules are quite good. He is the best at internal balance, with many different builds available. Lots of crazy, fun stuff and many options. It is fun to play. Once you finish one of his Codexes, you want to start writing lists. He is awful at external balance, but all GW writers are.

I really like what he created with the "newcrons". But he didn´t "expanded the faction". He destroyed it, completely. And then built one from the scratch. I would have rather kept the old Necrons or, if possible, get two different factions (I love having many factions, in case someone didn´t notice).

Psienesis you didn´t like the faction and as a result you saw them as "just robots", and thus boring. There were lots of stuff in the 3rd edition Codex: the Dragon on Mars, two pages about the Outsider, the pariahs and the human-necron interbreeding, Necrons and C´tans infiltrating humanity, the war against the Old Ones and the Warp turning into Chaos and countless predators destroying everything. It was crude, with many things to further develop... but it was complex and ambitious.

The current Codex is a simplification, a "let´s make it easy by washing away all the things that make people think" approach. How many conspiracy theories did you see concerning the C´tan? Countless. Concerning the Newcrons? None. Who cares? They are just your average humanoid xeno. They are no mystery.

Animus wrote:
Yeah, the Enslavers aren't squatted, Trazyn has one pinned to his wall.

Yessssssss... that is the only thing left of what once was one of the most powerful factions in the setting. Those who killed the Old Ones. Those who nearly exterminated their offspring. Those who made the Necrons flee and hide behind a rock for millions of years.

Look on their works, ye Mighty, and despair!

I particularly like his comparison between the Reapers and the 3rd edition Necrons. Both were clearly inspired by Lovecraft and are quite similar.

if you think that is what Lovecraft was writing about... then you're not really reading Lovecraft, because neither the Necrons nor the Reapers have *anything* in common with Lovecraft's Mythos other than they come from outer space. The Mythos does not sow. It does not reap. It does not harvest. It does not *care* about humanity in any way, shape or form. 99.9% of the Mythos entities are not even aware that humanity even exists.

1: Ward writes as a fanboy. There is no mystery, no sense of a hidden truth. Everything seems like an episode of the Power Rangers. And better not to start pointing out the blatant internal contradictions, the total lack of sense, the butchering of any previously established background, the absolute absence of any reference to any sci-fi setting, the total failure at grasping the basic scientific concepts (that galactic empire without FTL!!) and and and and and I think you get it. I am not good at writing in English because it is not my mother tongue, but I can easily see the breach between Alessio Cavatore or Kelly (neither of them are particularly good writers) and Ward.

The Necrons have had an inertialess drive (permitting FTL speed) since Battlefleet Gothic. They also have their Dolmen Gates, which function in a manner very similar to Eldar Web-Way gates. Ward did not create a star-spanning empire without the race having FTL travel.

Sure, in the early years of their colonization, they used Torch Ships. That's early-empire Necrons, not what the Dynasties eventually became, while still being the Necrontyr.

If you are looking for any kind of basic scientific realism.... well.... 40K ain't the setting for you. 95% of the gak we love in this setting simply would not work in real life, and has been proven to be inferior with real-life technologies and examples.

Yessssssss... that is the only thing left of what once was one of the most powerful factions in the setting. Those who killed the Old Ones. Those who nearly exterminated their offspring. Those who made the Necrons flee and hide behind a rock for millions of years.

Ah, so, your real beef is not that you don't have Killer Robots from Outer Space anymore, but that Killer Gas-Bags from the Great Beyond aren't as focused on anymore?

here were lots of stuff in the 3rd edition Codex: the Dragon on Mars, two pages about the Outsider, the pariahs and the human-necron interbreeding, Necrons and C´tans infiltrating humanity, the war against the Old Ones and the Warp turning into Chaos and countless predators destroying everything. It was crude, with many things to further develop... but it was complex and ambitious.

Pariahs: Boring. Makes more sense as a human genetic flaw, as a counter to psychic expression being the natural evolutionary path for Humanity. Also, one in one hundred billion humans is born a Blank (being one million times less common than a Psyker), as opposed to the one in one million that are born Psykers. The Necrons were *terrible* at this genetic manipulation thing if they seeded the race with the Pariah Gene.

Also, current Flayed Ones are cooler.

Dragon of Mars: Might still be there. We don't know. Might not be. We don't know. Might be a C'Tan. Might not be. This has always been a rumor and a theory, never proven. That's how 40K works in the most part.

Psienesis you didn´t like the faction and as a result you saw them as "just robots"

And you did like them and apply complexity and intrigue where others found silent, nameless robots driven by Lolthulus for the purpose of galactic consumption. Boring.

 da001 wrote:
I must admit I didn´t know that. I thought the first explanation about the origin of the Orks was the one given in Codex Necrons.

May I ask you to give a brief summary (or a link) about how Orks were created before 3rd Edition?

There were three hefty books published by Games Workshop during Rogue Trader that pretty much covered just background for the orks, they were not codexes but they did include army lists for all the various orks unit types, weapons, vehicles et cetera. They were: Waaargh The Orks (1990), Ere We Go (1991) and Freebooterz (1991).

The Ork origin story is reiterated a little in the current Ork Codex, much of what that Codex has to say is literally copypasta from Waaargh The Orks. In short, what are known as snotlings in the 41st Millennium were the original green skinned aliens. On their home planet these creatures took to eating fungus that had the effect of giving them genius level intelligence. They created many advanced technologies and even created the orks and gretchin to be servants and warrior slaves. Unfortunately these green skinned aliens did not know that they owed their enhanced intellignece to the fungus and so took no measures to stop the orks from eating it too. On the orks it had the same effect and boosted their intelligence although not to the same degree but enough to get the orks thinking that they didn't much like being ordered around by tiny little creatures.

The orks rebelled and gorged themselves on the fungus. Despite attempts to grow the fungus on other worlds it could not be transplanted and once the orks had eaten all that was the end of that. The orks enhanced intelligence bred true but for the 'Brain Boyz' as the orks called them, the effects wore off. Realissing that they were doomed the Brain Boyz encoded all of their scientific and technological knowledge into the orks DNA so at least something of them would survive. From that point on the Brain Boyz ceased to exist, and the snotlings are their present day descendants, under evolved but ironically still used by the orks to harvest and farm fungus.

Orks did not then change much until they encountered Mankind, some twenty thousand years before the current setting. At that time the Blood Axes were in charge of all orks being as they are given to leadership and tactical qualities lacking on other orks. However, in a repeat of what happened to the Brain Boyz, all the other ork clans got together to overthrow the Blood Axe rule because the Blood Axes had many dealings with other alien races, particularly humans and it was on that point that the other orks decided enough was enough; they just couldn't stand the Blood Axes mingling so easily with humans and in what became known as Da Big Party the Blood Axes were largely destroyed. The present day status of the orks is a relatively knew state of affairs for the species.


Then came Codex: Necrons that said, in a few short lines, that the 'green-skinned' Krork were made by the Old Ones and the Deceiver muses on the krork still being around, ergo, the Krork must be the Orks!! And all the fantastic ork background went strait down the toilet (and it has only recently begun to recover).

 Araenion wrote:
Oh, no, from a narrative standpoint, he writes utter gak. On a personal level, things aren't so bad. But when you look at the bigger picture, it's incredibly bland, familiar. Directly the opposite of the old codex, in fact. And equally as unfulfilling. The fact he gave Necrons personality isn't an issue, it's definitely a plus. The fact he gave them motivation we can understand/connect to is. Why the need to humanize menacing millions-of-years-old alien robots? Why do I need to know what drives them? We share -nothing- in common, as human motivation is always shaped by its weaknesses. In fact, all organic life works that way. Evolution is based on that assumption. I don't share -any- weaknesses with a robot, why would I understand it?

The appeal with Tyranids is that they are very easy to understand and their motivation frightens us precisely because we understand it. But Tyranids are evolution incarnate. They're literally the perfect organism. A force of nature. The Necrons are the extreme opposite. Their motivation we can never understand(or shouldn't) and therein lies their cold menace and their appeal. They can have personalities gallore, as long as they're not "human" ones.

Imagine if in the new codex Tyranids, they just retconned the Hive Mind and gave each Tyranid Hive Tyrant a personality(not intelligence, personality, completely independent from a higher purpose) of its own and a little litter of Tyranids of its own? And they fight little bug wars between each other(kinda like Worms video game, without the nukes) while making deals and shaking hands(claws, tentacles, pincers, whathaveyou) with Space Marines over victory well-fought against their common enemy? Yuck. And make no mistake, if this was a Mat Ward story, Swarmlord, as the speshulest bug that he is, would invade Holy Terra single-handedly fighting back the entire sector's defenses, lay his eggs in the Big E's lap and then steal his toenail before escaping unharmed with his trophy.

Nothing about the oldcron motivations (and tbh it's the C'tan really) were unknowable they were in fact rather straight forward and uniform. Which made them quite similar to Tyranids. Also what's a non human personality? I don't think you can add personality and not touch upon motivation or relate-ability on some level. The Tyranids example would be terrible indeed, but we're not discussing Tyranids so I don't see how it's relevant.

@da001

"The current Codex is a simplification, a "let´s make it easy by washing away all the things that make people think" approach. How many conspiracy theories did you see concerning the C´tan? Countless. Concerning the Newcrons? None. Who cares? They are just your average humanoid xeno. They are no mystery."

Terrible, counter intuitive, and downright silly fan theories shouldn't be the metric for how interesting a faction is. However, the amount of stories I can make about my army is a great metric for how interesting a faction is, something the new fluff allows for much like how people invent a CSM warband or SM chapter. Now necron players have more than "tombworld is disturbed, necrons awaken, and necrons kill" to work with. Motivation and character is better than mystery for the player, it lets you get behind your army and its characters (and if you don't want that there's tyranids). And really the old mystery was a mix of the authors simply saying 'ooh how Lovecraftian and unknowable!" without it really being so, and partly there being so little literature, now you can make your own mystery with a custom dynasty. Necrons are more than just a plot device now.

Manchu wrote:
I remember being a bit shocked while reading Dead Men Walking that the Necrons would bother to directly communicate, if only very concise and in an absolute monologue, to the humans. That was definitely NOT part of their general theme before that moment. Even now, with the 5E dex, I still get the impression they are fairly reticent ... albeit much more intelligent and articulate than previously indicated.

"Oldcrons" were more of a mystery. I prefer the "Newcrons" (I love the idea of TK in Spaaaace). That said, neither fluff ever made me seriously consider buying a Necron army.

Well see, that is just blatantly untrue. It was rare, but communication between oldcrons and their foes did happen.

Now, they throw dinner parties with them.


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 Psienesis wrote:

Most of what you've got listed here are nothing more than background flavor. In the main, they take no pivotal role in how things play out between them and another faction (also, many of the things you listed are simply small parts of a larger, more-established faction). The Enslavers, as the things that came down, ate the galaxy, and forced the robots to go to sleep, had a much more pivotal role.

... they also stole most of the Tyranid's thunder, as well as that of the Necrons. Why worry about the Hive Fleets or the Red Harvest when you have the Enslavers lurking about in the Warp? Better to keep them much more in the shadows than build them up as a thing that you never do anything with.

I am pretty sure regurgitating the same argument over and over again after it was debunked is actually considered trolling.


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 Psienesis wrote:
Well, the Necrons know that they didn't destroy the C'Tan. They can't be destroyed, really. Even the one that has been destroyed may yet reform at some later aeon long after the events of M41 have passed into myth. The C'Tan are physical-plane gods, in a sense.

Well no, see, that is just Wardian internal inconsistency at work yet again (Similar to how Grey Knights can be entirely immune to corruption, yet Purifiers are even more immune).

That the Flayer C'tan might reform is speculation. Speculation that has less basis than Roboute Guilliman finally finishing his dump.

That's not a fact, it's a bandwagon.

Ward's 5th Ed fluff for Necrons isn't terrible. In fact, it's pretty damn good. It actually made me give a gak about the Necrons as a faction. Previously, they bored the hell out of me, because they were robo-Tyranids

That you liked it is subjective. I am of the opinion that the new codex is inferior to the old one overall, while putting forth some good ideas and SC.

That Ward is a sub-par writer is objective. He can have good ideas, but he has serious problems conveying them on paper.


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 Psienesis wrote:
The Oldcrons were Terminators. The silent, implacable enemy marching shoulder-to-shoulder across the battlefield to destroy everything before them, against which nothing could stand.

So why do you think your opinion has more merit than other people's?

If anything it has less because I've shown everyone multiple times that you have at best cursory knowledge of the Necron fluff, yet choose to make wide, sweeping generalizations on it.

Make no mistake. Not a soul among us can begin to match me in Necron knowledge. As da001 is for Chaos, I am for the Necrons.

There were lots of stuff in the 3rd edition Codex: the Dragon on Mars

Which also retconned the Adeptas Mechanicus, which was irritating as

Make no mistake. Not a soul among us can begin to match me in Necron knowledge. As da001 is for Chaos, I am for the Necrons.

Typically those who believe themselves to be knowledgeable, are usually the best at misquoting it considering they believe everything they say to be true.

Well see, that is just blatantly untrue. It was rare, but communication between oldcrons and their foes did happen.

Only in black library, in cases that contradict the codex, and infact makes them less 'alien'

 Psienesis wrote:
The Oldcrons were Terminators.

That's hardly fair, the Terminator was funny.

The thing that stuck with me about the oldcrons was how GW had problems giving them story hooks. In campaigns it was always "the faceless horde shows up, kills some stuff then leaves mysteriously"

They couldn't even give the Necron Players the hooks because it would lose some of its mystery.

That's the major reason I'm in favor of the new fluff.


And as far as enslavers go, they actually did have units in a chapter approved supplement during 3rd, but I don't remember the details

@Gogsnik: thank you very much.

 Psienesis wrote:

I particularly like his comparison between the Reapers and the 3rd edition Necrons. Both were clearly inspired by Lovecraft and are quite similar.

if you think that is what Lovecraft was writing about... then you're not really reading Lovecraft, because neither the Necrons nor the Reapers have *anything* in common with Lovecraft's Mythos other than they come from outer space. The Mythos does not sow. It does not reap. It does not harvest. It does not *care* about humanity in any way, shape or form. 99.9% of the Mythos entities are not even aware that humanity even exists.

1: Unfathomable creatures from the dark beyond, waking from a deep slumber, bending the minds of anyone unfortunate enough to gaze upon them.
2: Insanity all over the place. Most of the reports from Codex Necrons include humans turned insane.
3: A fear of sex made apparent by utterly terrifying hybrids (the gods want to have sex with you in its horrible way)
4: Humans little more than cockroaches.
5: They are not alive. Nor are they dead; they merely wait, and soon they shall wake. They shall return to rule this world, and all our grandest achievements shall have been in vain.

Lovecraft (one of my all time favorite authors, by the way) is not only Lovecraft, it is everything he created. The Circle of Lovecraft expanded the mythos. It is the force behind the cosmic horror stories.

Also, if I am not wrong, the authors themselves (there are five) said in a WD that they were inspired by the Cthulhu Mythos.

If you are looking for any kind of basic scientific realism.... well.... 40K ain't the setting for you. 95% of the gak we love in this setting simply would not work in real life, and has been proven to be inferior with real-life technologies and examples.

There are limits. "I like science fiction / fantasy" does not mean "I am ok with any form of incoherent rambling written by someone who has never been properly scholarized". Some of the stuff in the setting is rather interesting, deep and based on classical concepts or real scientific advances.

Did you know that every Space Marine implant was inspired by some real medical advances (or wild hypothesis) of the time? This maybe of interest to someone: it is a blog written by biotechnologists. One of them likes w40k and wrote some articles about what scientific advances inspired the people in GW to create the Space Marines. Especifically, he quoted the advancements in biology behind the Secundary Heart, the Ossmodule and the Biscopea. It is in Spanish, and really difficult to translate given the high amount of scientific names (sorry )

The same applies to a lot of elements of this setting. Mythology, anthropology, science, classic literature, social references...

Yessssssss... that is the only thing left of what once was one of the most powerful factions in the setting. Those who killed the Old Ones. Those who nearly exterminated their offspring. Those who made the Necrons flee and hide behind a rock for millions of years.

Ah, so, your real beef is not that you don't have Killer Robots from Outer Space anymore, but that Killer Gas-Bags from the Great Beyond aren't as focused on anymore?

It is not my major beef, but it is actually a reason for me to dislike the change.
I don´t like complete reboots of factions. Some people were waiting ten years for the new Codex Necrons, an army they had invested a lot of time, effort and money on.

Psienesis you didn´t like the faction and as a result you saw them as "just robots"

And you did like them and apply complexity and intrigue where others found silent, nameless robots driven by Lolthulus for the purpose of galactic consumption. Boring.

 da001 wrote:

Animus wrote:
Yeah, the Enslavers aren't squatted, Trazyn has one pinned to his wall.

Yessssssss... that is the only thing left of what once was one of the most powerful factions in the setting. Those who killed the Old Ones. Those who nearly exterminated their offspring. Those who made the Necrons flee and hide behind a rock for millions of years.

Look on their works, ye Mighty, and despair!

Let's be honest, Enslavers weren't that big or important in 40k, they were just some beasties from RT raised up as an excuse to have the Necrons go to sleep, they could have used Vampires, Astral Spectres or even just daemons. Besides that, the Necron codex still says the Old Ones were beset by "calamitous warp spawned perils they had mistakenly unleashed," so it's not hard to imagine the Enslavers still kicking around then, even if their power level wasn't so high as before.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Well see, that is just blatantly untrue.

Sigh. What exactly is "blatantly untrue"?

 da001 wrote:
@Gogsnik: thank you very much.

My pleasure

Did you know that every Space Marine implant was inspired by some real medical advances (or wild hypothesis) of the time? This maybe of interest to someone: it is a blog written by biotechnologists. One of them likes w40k and wrote some articles about what scientific advances inspired the people in GW to create the Space Marines. Especifically, he quoted the advancements in biology behind the Secundary Heart, the Ossmodule and the Biscopea. It is in Spanish, and really difficult to translate given the high amount of scientific names (sorry )

Spoiler:

http://biotecnoblogos.febiotec.es/ciencia-al-servicio-del-emperador/
http://biotecnoblogos.febiotec.es/ciencia-al-servicio-del-emperador-ii-el-tamano-importa/

Google did a pretty good job of translating those articles which are very interesting. I have a great affection for orks but Space Marines were and still are my main army of choice so I found that very informative, thanks for the links.


On the Newcron/Oldcron subject it seems to me that destroyers pretty much continue the Oldcron theme in the newer background. They don't have a readily interchangeable human-like personality and still follow the old 'exterminate the living' theme that drove the Oldcrons; albeit that was at the behest of the C'tan due to their insatiable hunger for life force but I see no reason for that not to be the case even now.

Since the Necrontyr came to worship the C'tan but only began to wake up to the terrible fact of what was really going on almost literally as they were being turned into Necrons then the idea of the Necrons rebelling against the C'tan was seeded in the Oldcron background. If you look at the progression of Necron background since they first appeared in White Dwarf then the fully restored personalties we see now do fit with that progression.

Naturally the Destroyers epitomise the more religious amongst the Necrontyr, they willingly gave up their lives because they abhor and detest all life and that theme, I would say, is enhanced in the Newcron background, in fact, I would say they are even nastier now than before. Going with the progression of the background as matching the slow awakening of the Necrons then the revelation of the Dynasties, and the re-emergence of Necrontyr honour and ability to parley fits well. As for the difference in Lords where they could be presented as more mindless or not then the simple explanation is that not all Lords were created equally, would it not fit that those Necrontyr that were more powerful would have Lord servants that were more like their mindless warrior slaves just because? We could say that some Necron Lords represent a favoured noble or a lesser Dynasty or some such and they managed to retain personality and their own agendas but other Lords were favoured generals and the like and their reward was to have their minds stripped, leaving only their tactical brilliance and obedience behind.

I don't see a reason (in purely Necron related backgrond, not the Old Ones, War in Heaven et cetera) that the newer background isn't compatible with the earlier material. In the wider context of the C'tan then the problem lies with the 3rd Edition Codex having them as tabletop characters. They should have been like the Chaos Gods, too powerful to have anything other than their servants present in a game. However, even if they had been restricted to the background then their presence still stymied the Necrons and, as I have said about the Krork, that information had a deleterious affect on a lot of the background for no particular gain. Backtracking on that background, nerfing the C'tan to make them playable but whilst retaining their awesome power, should all their shards be reunited, seems like a positve step forward to me.

Count me amongst the few who hated the "villiain sue" oldcrons with a passion. Omnipotent not-chaos gods ruling over an army of non-tyranid lesser critters. Necrons threw narrative coherence to the ground, challenging so many estabished rules and notions that the entire 40k universe had to be rewritten for them to fit in.

Cosmic Horror is not just about intrincate cosmologies, ooglie booglies, jumps and scares. Rather, it's about the notion that God exists, and He(/She/It) hates us. And 40k already had that: Chaos.

In 40k, Chaos is the force behind the earthquake, the plague, the design flaw that causes the explosion, the well-meaning, enlightened ideologue that unwillingly sets the wheels of genocide in motion. It's a universe where the basic laws of nature, gifted with a malevolent sentience, conspire to kill or harm us. It's Lovecraft plus Moorcock, and yet manages to be even more brutal and pessimistic than the mere sum of its parts. I won't say it's a masterpiece of horror, but it's a hell of a good idea.

But all that was ruled to the background when someone forcefully inserted some C'Tan "Star Gods" (the name makes my neurons hurt), older, deadlier, more mysterious and ten times more awesome than the Ruinous Powers. Cosmic Horror gave way to Lovecraft-lite, lame "ancient astronauts" stories cobbled together from the cheesiest bits of 80s UFO lore, and an over-convoluted galactic origin story as complex as it was dumb.

The new codex is far from being the best bit of fluff ever written for 40k, but at least it fixes some of the gaping wounds in the narrative caused by the Necrons' previous incarnations.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Only in black library, in cases that contradict the codex, and infact makes them less 'alien'

I wasn't aware the third edition Necron codex was Black Library.

My mistake.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:
Sigh. What exactly is "blatantly untrue"?

Read the second part of the post segment you quoted.

I am digging through my old White Dwarf, issues 217 and 218 introduced them to 2ed.

"The Necrons are a biologically dead race that was wiped out in a galaxy wide catastrophe approximately 60 million years ago. Faced with extinction the Necrons constructed metal bodies as repositories for their hyper-advanced minds."

I was around for the playtesting that submitted win/loss ratios to GW to tweak the Necron army. Back in 3rd ED they were a significantly powerful list, unbalanced even. The one thing I have noticed over the years is that the fluff did not contradict itself, it evolved for sure, but here GW got one right and they have not pulled any punches.

- J


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It was Andy Chambers and Rick Priestly who "forced the Necrons" into the narrative. Also note, there was mention of Necrons in Rogue Trader, so they have always been there.

- J

Been reading, really enjoying this thread. You know, I considered getting a Necron army, I now regret not going that route.

It's because this thread really showed how much the Necrons' design evolved more than any other (maybe Soritas also).

Like Orks have always been Orky. Eldar, we got newer things like Warp Spiders, Wraithknights, but stayed basically intact.

But Necrons...it was this that really jolted my memory. I started the Hobby with the likes Heroquest by Milton Bradley/GW:

 necrondog99 wrote:
It was Andy Chambers and Rick Priestly who "forced the Necrons" into the narrative. Also note, there was mention of Necrons in Rogue Trader, so they have always been there.

- J

I believe this was exactly true, alongside the original Ymargl Genestealer and Zoats and things I've forgotten.

Andy Chambers and (his mentor, whom he quoted on this) Rick Priestly didn't like to "tie up loose ends."

It's because those "loose ends" were the seeds of new ideas to explore in the future. This was key.

The kicker is I'm not sure the word "Necron" was even used. Back then, they were "Chaos Androids".

(It's ok, back then, "Chaos" was just a generic blanket term meaning anything that was especially evil.)

But back then, it wasn't because the designers were lazy. It was a deliberate "loose end".

---

So IMHO, yeah, Necrons were just "killer robots" even in 1st ed/Space Crusade.

But also IMHO...they were never meant to just stay that way. It was a "loose end" for future ideas.

And what we see now, again IMHO, was exactly that concept evolving into something much cooler.

I doubt this was exactly how Andy/Rick saw Necrons, but it's ok...they just wanted to see them grow.

I wasn't aware the third edition Necron codex was Black Library.

My mistake.

I've quoted the codex for how the Necron Lords should be, do you have any otherwise besides a snarky comment?

Well, it can all be put in proportion.

Oldcrons were at least far more interesting than, say, DKoK.

I can see both sides of the argument. I liked the Oldcrons, but then, I often like things that others don't.

@Animus: yeah you are probably right. Still don´t like it though.

 Gogsnik wrote:
In the wider context of the C'tan then the problem lies with the 3rd Edition Codex having them as tabletop characters. They should have been like the Chaos Gods, too powerful to have anything other than their servants present in a game. However, even if they had been restricted to the background then their presence still stymied the Necrons and, as I have said about the Krork, that information had a deleterious affect on a lot of the background for no particular gain. Backtracking on that background, nerfing the C'tan to make them playable but whilst retaining their awesome power, should all their shards be reunited, seems like a positve step forward to me.

I must admit I saw this as the biggest problem with 3rd edition Necrons. I assumed it represented an "avatar of the C´tan" instead of a full C´tan, like a Bloodthirster to Khorne. However, the Necrons rebellion against their gods seems odd too. Imagine the next Chaos Space Marine Codex saying that Abbadon got fed up of the Chaos Gods and sent an army to the Warp, defeated them and trapped them. If you think about it, the Silent King is to Kaldor Draigo as Chuck Norris is to Justin Bieber.

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:

Cosmic Horror is (...) about the notion that God exists, and He(/She/It) hates us. And 40k already had that: Chaos.

That´s by far the best definition of Cosmic Horror I have ever read. And Chaos certainly fits it.

However, I liked the C´tan as a Chaos Gods equivalent. Humanity was thrice doomed. We had three unstoppable menaces, all of them converging on Terra:
1: The Chaos Gods working together and supporting a new Warmaster in the 13th Crusade drew the attention of the Empire. They attacked Cadia, but they were aiming for Terra.
2: The Dragon sleeping on Mars turned the Solar System into a first priority target for the C´tan.
3: The Tyranids being attracted by the Astronomicon as if they were moths.

No way this was gonna have a happy ending for Terra. And if Terra falls, then the Imperium will instantly turn into small kingdoms. A dark time will come that will make people remember the 41st millennium as "the good old times". Grim darkness indeed. I loved it.

Now two of those menaces have been somehow neutralized. Chaos is no longer that big of a threat and Necrons are not particularly interested in Terra and, even if they were, they like to negotiate and talk things out. Perhaps even ally with the Imperium. There is a light at the end of the tunnel, but it has not been caused by a progression in the story. It has been caused by a rewriting of the story from the beginning. If you like it dark, the setting got worse.

Lots of stuff in this thread I didn´t know though. Keep it coming.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Read the second part of the post segment you quoted.

That's not an answer. As I said, Necrons talking was never a part of their general theme. That's different from saying it never happened at all. But their general theme is remaining eerily silent. In Dead Men Walking, a giant hologram of the Necron Lord appears over the hive to give an address to the defenders.

 Psienesis wrote:

We have an alien species in possession of super-science, being functionally immortal, able to time-travel, move from one end of the galaxy to the other in comparative safety with relative ease, in a fraction of the time of everyone else, who are in possession of Galactic Doomsday technology...

... and we're supposed to believe that these people are somehow on par with a faction that turned a tractor into a tank?
.

This made my drink spurt out of my nose...

 da001 wrote:
The Necrons were unable to stop the Enslavers. I am counting that as a defeat. It is in page 26, but I don´t have an English Codex right know. A translation would be like: they "flew" from them. "Apocaliptic" and "catastrophic" are used to describe the Enslaver Plague. They "found a solution" to "escape" from them. Also, they didn´t finish the Great Work and seal off the Warp because of this. They were escaping. They hid. For millions of years. The Great Work was interrupted.

I don't think it's described like that in the English one but without access to it I'll have to concede here.

He was sleeping. It is said in page 26 too that the C´tan slept for millions of years, and only two have awaken.Also I am not sure about the amount of power the C´tan have after waking up. They are clearly not yet at god-like level.

The Deceiver woke up first and was if I recall correctly awake for millennia prior to 41st millennium. The Nightbringer after waking up half starved proceeded to drain a sun I think.

Still, nothing of the like is said in the last Codex. The writer needed a reason for the Necrons to hide and for some reason the Enslavers were retconned. So he took a 40k army from 60 million years in the future and used it. Not a single sentence is given to turn this nonsensical assertion into something acceptable. We can talk about how this madness can be understood, but at least is really, really lazy writing.

Enslavers are mentioned as Warp-spawned perils or some such And Trazyn has the ossified husk of one (though it's not said when he got it). The Eldar were always around and I think were mentioned to be the next big power anyway. Apologies for the delayed posts by the way.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 da001 wrote:
The Necrons were unable to stop the Enslavers. I am counting that as a defeat. It is in page 26, but I don´t have an English Codex right know. A translation would be like: they "flew" from them. "Apocaliptic" and "catastrophic" are used to describe the Enslaver Plague. They "found a solution" to "escape" from them. Also, they didn´t finish the Great Work and seal off the Warp because of this. They were escaping. They hid. For millions of years. The Great Work was interrupted.

I don't think it's described like that in the English one but without access to it I'll have to concede here.

Got a copy, quote time.

First part: Enslavers and the Old Ones. Page 26: The Enslaver Plague is described in a section called "The Apocalypse Looms".


Second part: Enslavers and Necrons. Page 26: "The C´tan Entombed".


There are no descriptions of fights between Enslavers and Necrons. But:
1) The Enslavers brutally defeated the Old Ones and their descendants. It is left unresolved how anything managed to survive.
2) The Necrons allow this to happen in order to ensure that they would survive. They "chose to scape the great catastrophe" and hid for millions of years.
3) And take care of how much time they expected to hide: as long as needed, until new life-forms disturbed them.

He was sleeping. It is said in page 26 too that the C´tan slept for millions of years, and only two have awaken.Also I am not sure about the amount of power the C´tan have after waking up. They are clearly not yet at god-like level.

The Deceiver woke up first and was if I recall correctly awake for millennia prior to 41st millennium. The Nightbringer after waking up half starved proceeded to drain a sun I think.

Still, nothing of the like is said in the last Codex. The writer needed a reason for the Necrons to hide and for some reason the Enslavers were retconned. So he took a 40k army from 60 million years in the future and used it. Not a single sentence is given to turn this nonsensical assertion into something acceptable. We can talk about how this madness can be understood, but at least is really, really lazy writing.

Enslavers are mentioned as Warp-spawned perils or some such And Trazyn has the ossified husk of one (though it's not said when he got it). The Eldar were always around and I think were mentioned to be the next big power anyway. Apologies for the delayed posts by the way.

I don´t think Enslavers are mentioned as such. We can make the connection because we know the story, but the only time Enslavers are mentioned by name is in the Trazyn entry.

Anyway, this shouldn´t be about the Enslavers, it should be about the Necrons.

New information: did someone else realize that in the new Codex: Inquisition the Inquisition cannot ally with Necrons at all? They were Allies of Convenience before.

 da001 wrote:

There are no descriptions of fights between Enslavers and Necrons. But:
1) The Enslavers brutally defeated the Old Ones and their descendants. It is left unresolved how anything managed to survive.
2) The Necrons allow this to happen in order to ensure that they would survive. They "chose to scape the great catastrophe" and hid for millions of years.
3) And take care of how much time they expected to hide: as long as needed, until new life-forms disturbed them.

I always took it to mean that the Necrons and C'tan were relatively unharmed by the Enslavers. The catastrophe applied to the Pyschic races. The Enslavers couldn't attack the C'tan in the same way but would destroy their food source.

As for how anything survived, weren't the Krork created to combat the Enslavers?

I don´t think Enslavers are mentioned as such. We can make the connection because we know the story, but the only time Enslavers are mentioned by name is in the Trazyn entry.

Correct.

Manchu wrote:
That's not an answer. As I said, Necrons talking was never a part of their general theme. That's different from saying it never happened at all. But their general theme is remaining eerily silent. In Dead Men Walking, a giant hologram of the Necron Lord appears over the hive to give an address to the defenders.

And do the Necrons speak notably at any other part in the book?


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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I wasn't aware the third edition Necron codex was Black Library.

My mistake.

I've quoted the codex for how the Necron Lords should be, do you have any otherwise besides a snarky comment?

I'll actually own up to this one. I misremembered the codex, the excerpt I was talking about was of a slave (Maybe a Pariah?) of the Necrons speaking to someone.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
I always took it to mean that the Necrons and C'tan were relatively unharmed by the Enslavers. The catastrophe applied to the Pyschic races. The Enslavers couldn't attack the C'tan in the same way but would destroy their food source.

Of course, the new Codex: Necrons background neatly retcons this argument utterly. In the old background the reason for the Necrons going into their aeons long slumber was so that new races could emerge for the C'tan to feast upon but the new background states that, after smashing the C'tan, the Necrons went into stasis because they were simply too weak to defend themselves against the Eldar.

Additionally there is no mention of the Enslavers only 'calamitous Warp-spawned perils' and what other races existed at that time are no-longer described as being tinkered with or created by the Old Ones, they are simply 'their allies'. Even the reason for the Necron's awakening has been changed. Before it was when suitably advanced lifeforms, the kind the C'tan might find tasty, disturbed a tomb-world but now it is because the Silent King ordered them to sleep for sixty million years before awakening to 'rebuild all that they had lost, to restore the dynasties to their former glory.'

All of that information in the old Codex: Necrons no-longer applies so what does it really matter what the Enslavers achieved in that old material.

As I do not have the Newcrons codex, is there any good reasoning as to why, if the Eldar were too powerful for the Necrons to defeat, that the Eldar didn't just destroy their tombs after they retreated to them, rather than completely forgetting about them? To me that is the huge flaw with the new fluff versus the old.

The old fluff was basically the Necron version of Fallout, really. Let everything above burn while you wait it out.