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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/24 19:11:34
Subject: Current State of Meta (returning player)
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
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Martel732 wrote:No, the seer council wins through be unkillable and very mobile. Assault is really an afterthought. Bring some more standard CC troops and see how well it goes.
Flesh Hounds, Screamers (in non Screamer Star form), Chapter Masters on Bikes, Wraith Knights, Daemon Princes, Lords of Change, Keepers of Secrets. Those are all assault units who have been at the top tables of recent GTs.
Look if you want to argue that non Daemon/Eldar assault is "mostly dead" I will agree (mostly dead because of Chapter Masters and Riptide Death Stars, who still do plenty of assaulting). But Daemons are the second best Army in the game. And they win mostly through assault. And it's usually not the Screamer Star at GT level, because it's too unreliable a list. It's usually either a Flying Circus or a Horde List.
Edit: Can't forget the Spawntide. That list came out of nowhere but did well at a bunch of GTs recently (Nova, BfS, 11th Co)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/24 19:14:54
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/24 19:15:08
Subject: Current State of Meta (returning player)
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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"Look if you want to argue that non Daemon/Eldar assault is "mostly dead" I will agree"
A couple of specific instances that do work very well do not validate the assault mechanic in general. I'm quite aware of council builds, screamer stars, and flying MCs. What about lists that don't have access to any of those units?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/24 19:19:14
Subject: Re:Current State of Meta (returning player)
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Fixture of Dakka
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anonymou5 wrote:So one story of Tau tabling Dark Angels is okay, but an entire GT is "just a few people playing dice games?"
96 players over 7 games is 672 games. In the context of sample sizes that's not great, but it's a hell of a lot better than your example. In 672 games, 6 assault based armies found them selves at the top of 96 players. That's a hell of a lot more relevant than "I think assault is completely dead"
Further, if that's still too anecdotal. Out of the thousands and thousands of games tracked on Torrent of Fire, Daemons are currently ranked as the second most successful Army (by percentage of games won). That's ahead of Tau, and below Eldar. You better believe those Daemon armies aren't winning most of those games through shooting.
Further: as mentioned earlier, play against a Seer Council. It's probably the best build in the entire game, and it wins through assaults.
I keep running through my mind the scene from the Princess Bride where Andre the giant says that he doesn't think his partner in crime knows what a word means. I think it applies in Ailaros's case. If you read some of his earlier posts in this thread, it seems that where he games at the tables have minimal terrain with gunline armies on both sides of the table shooting at each other. Sounds pretty boring without any players developing any real skill, at least as he tells it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/24 19:21:21
Subject: Current State of Meta (returning player)
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets
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anonymou5 wrote:Look if you want to argue that non Daemon/Eldar assault is "mostly dead" I will agree (mostly dead because of Chapter Masters and Riptide Death Stars, who still do plenty of assaulting). But Daemons are the second best Army in the game. And they win mostly through assault. And it's usually not the Screamer Star at GT level, because it's too unreliable a list. It's usually either a Flying Circus or a Horde List.
While I was making the Simhammer segment this past week, I crunched the total wins. When you add in 'allies', daemons drop to 4th place in relation to win percentage. This puts daemons in 4th. Still very strong -- but not quite #2. It not much of a shock what the top 3 are.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/24 19:23:51
Subject: Current State of Meta (returning player)
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Well think about it a bit more Relapse. Let's say you have your table with both area terrain and LOS blocking terrain. Normally models can't move through the LOS blocking terrain, so they have to go around it. Obviously, the most popular assault elements of the current meta don't have this problem, but I"m discussing assault in general.
So your units have to move around this stuff to get where they're going, since hiding behind it the whole game doesn't win you the game. Moving around said terrain feature might cost you a turn or even two of movement of getting into assault range.
6th edition has forced me to shoot with the BA, and I've gotten a lot better at target prioritization. I find that I can stave off an assault for a whole turn by sometimes moving a few models 3" or so backwards. By prioritizing the units that are a) visible and b) a real assault threat, I've found that against non-seer council, non-daemons I can take assault out of the picture. Note that also *I* choose what gets assaulted, not the assaulting player. That is such a huge advantage that can't be stressed enough.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/24 19:27:07
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/24 19:27:27
Subject: Current State of Meta (returning player)
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
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labmouse42 wrote: anonymou5 wrote:Look if you want to argue that non Daemon/Eldar assault is "mostly dead" I will agree (mostly dead because of Chapter Masters and Riptide Death Stars, who still do plenty of assaulting). But Daemons are the second best Army in the game. And they win mostly through assault. And it's usually not the Screamer Star at GT level, because it's too unreliable a list. It's usually either a Flying Circus or a Horde List.
While I was making the Simhammer segment this past week, I crunched the total wins. When you add in 'allies', daemons drop to 4th place in relation to win percentage. This puts daemons in 4th. Still very strong -- but not quite #2. It not much of a shock what the top 3 are.
I was just using Torrent of Fire's posted data for "Armies" I don't have an Ultimate Torrent of Fire subscription. What's going to be interesting is how Codex: Prescience and broken Grenades shakes things up.
But if you look at that, it's really still Eldar, Daemons, then Tau. Tau without Eldar are below Daemons, lol.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/24 19:33:08
Subject: Current State of Meta (returning player)
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Okay, I never meant to argue whether daemons could assault or not. They have both screamerstar and flying MC circus at their disposal. My concern was mainly anyone else.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/24 19:33:57
Subject: Current State of Meta (returning player)
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Fixture of Dakka
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Martel732 wrote:Well think about it a bit more Relapse. Let's say you have your table with both area terrain and LOS blocking terrain. Normally models can't move through the LOS blocking terrain, so they have to go around it. Obviously, the most popular assault elements of the current meta don't have this problem, but I"m discussing assault in general.
So your units have to move around this stuff to get where they're going, since hiding behind it the whole game doesn't win you the game. Moving around said terrain feature might cost you a turn or even two of movement of getting into assault range.
I just direct your attention to the youtube videos I've linked. Those are just two of several examples. I admit my bud is extremely good with Orks as they are the only army he has run,with an occasional Templar foray, since the early 1990's. The key is that he knows the strengths and weaknesses of his army well and has a lot of experience facing every conceivable build of opponent's forces. He has literaly pissed a few people off when he beat them with his Orks because they thought their gunline was invincible and he rolled over it.
As I said, he doesn't win every time, but his record is impressive enough to put the "gunline can't be beat statement" down as a misconception.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/24 19:37:40
Subject: Current State of Meta (returning player)
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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I only see the link to the CSM vs Ork game. Which, unfortunately, doesn't prove much because meqs stink right now. I think if the Orks that battle had been taking Eldar/Tau levels of fire, they would have lost that game.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/24 19:38:19
Subject: Current State of Meta (returning player)
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
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Martel732 wrote:Okay, I never meant to argue whether daemons could assault or not. They have both screamerstar and flying MC circus at their disposal. My concern was mainly anyone else.
Then we're mostly in agreement. Herald Hammer style Daemon lists also do really well (Hounds, Screamers and Seekers with Heralds). Although there are still a few other viable assault units in the game. I will agree it's not what it once was.
Ironically the Oseva Star is a fantastic assault unit. And it's Tau, lol.
A few others: Spawntides, Corbulo stars, Mephiston, Chapter Masters on Bikes (I like running him with a Bear Lord attached to Fenrisian Wolves), Beastpacks (they still do great, it's the rest of the Dark Eldar codex that has issues). Automatically Appended Next Post: Honestly man, beating up on the Blue Table Guys means nothing. They're mid table obscurity skill level, at best. They're better than the MWG team, but not by a whole lot.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/24 19:39:15
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/24 19:40:22
Subject: Current State of Meta (returning player)
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Corbulo stars and Mephiston force you to play with a crap codex. Not worth it at all. The beastpacks are more playable, imo.
Chapter masters on bikes do their thing, but I feel it's a hollow unit to field compared to seer council, daemons, etc.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/24 19:42:47
Subject: Current State of Meta (returning player)
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Fixture of Dakka
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Martel732 wrote:I only see the link to the CSM vs Ork game. Which, unfortunately, doesn't prove much because meqs stink right now. I think if the Orks that battle had been taking Eldar/Tau levels of fire, they would have lost that game.
There's a link vs. Tau also, just a few posts up. Automatically Appended Next Post: Relapse wrote: juraigamer wrote:Whats this? A mad IG player talking about assault being dead? Say it isn't so!
In terms of top tier armies, Daemons with FMC and the silly 2++ trick are melee based. Bike armies have massive melee potential, and are common again, and so forth.
But really now, whats the best way to beat a shooty army? You're not going to beat a tau force with a marine force by shooting it, you beat it by getting into melee so you can't get shot at. That's basic tactics. Having a few support elements to shoot at things that would kill your assault force is also very sound.
Why are tau hated so much? Tau are a completely shooting focused army. Unless you're tailoring your lists just for tau, it's hard to out shoot them. Stop shooting tau, melee them instead.
Well run Orks do well against Tau also. This game is pretty indicitive of how an Ork army can work Tau. The guy playing Orks has never lost to a Tau army that I know of.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YgTYnRmHf0M
Here it is again.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/24 19:43:53
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/24 19:47:50
Subject: Current State of Meta (returning player)
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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I'm sure your friend is a great Ork player, but that Tau list sucked. I think I could have beat that list with BA even. Vespids and Hammerheads? No Riptides? That's not a fair test for the Orks.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/24 19:58:29
Subject: Current State of Meta (returning player)
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
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Martel732 wrote:I'm sure your friend is a great Ork player, but that Tau list sucked. I think I could have beat that list with BA even. Vespids and Hammerheads? No Riptides? That's not a fair test for the Orks.
No Buff Commander, no Skyrays, no Kroot, no Riptides, no Broadsides, no Etherial. Those are the six best units in the Tau Codex (although you don't necessarily need all of them, you should at least have most). That's a joke list, lol. About what you get on Blue Table, they play the game for fun not for competition (not that there's anything wrong with that), so using them to gauge the meta is ridiculous.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Martel732 wrote:Corbulo stars and Mephiston force you to play with a crap codex. Not worth it at all. The beastpacks are more playable, imo.
Chapter masters on bikes do their thing, but I feel it's a hollow unit to field compared to seer council, daemons, etc.
It's a shame Corbulo isn't an HQ. So you could bring him and some cheap Assault Terminators in to a Marine list (he is an elite right, I'm not being an idiot?)
If you've got twin linking on your Chapter Master (tau Commander, Rune Priest, Tiggy, whatever), it's a good way to ruin turn 1 for Daemons/Eldar. (force them to reserve if not kill units outright).
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/24 20:00:23
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/24 20:01:49
Subject: Current State of Meta (returning player)
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Yes, Corbs is elite which means Corbs + TH/SS terminators = your list is BA primary.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/24 20:04:31
Subject: Current State of Meta (returning player)
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Fixture of Dakka
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Martel732 wrote:I'm sure your friend is a great Ork player, but that Tau list sucked. I think I could have beat that list with BA even. Vespids and Hammerheads? No Riptides? That's not a fair test for the Orks.
Perhaps this list sucked, but no Tau player from a fair selection of players using other lists has ever beaten him.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/24 20:05:53
Subject: Current State of Meta (returning player)
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Relapse wrote:Martel732 wrote:I'm sure your friend is a great Ork player, but that Tau list sucked. I think I could have beat that list with BA even. Vespids and Hammerheads? No Riptides? That's not a fair test for the Orks.
Perhaps this list sucked, but no Tau player from a fair selection of players using other lists has ever beaten him.
If they used lists like that, no wonder. That Ork list would evaporate against a well-played, *well-built* mono-Tau. We won't get into Taudar. I would feel comfortable taking my BA against either of those lists, and that's not a good sign.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/24 20:06:55
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/24 20:09:18
Subject: Re:Current State of Meta (returning player)
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
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It's not even a good Ork list. Cans, really? This isn't exactly the edition of the Dread…
Where is the Biker Boss going? With boyz? He has jink, they don't, so a smart opponent is just going to Focus Fire small arms fire and kill all the boyz, then use big guns on the now alone Biker Boss.
Trucks? You need a lot more than that if you want to make them work….like MAX numbers.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/24 20:10:08
Subject: Current State of Meta (returning player)
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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As I said, those lists belong on a table with my BA. Which isn't good.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/24 21:15:30
Subject: Current State of Meta (returning player)
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Drone without a Controller
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Lol... that ork list would get smoked by anyone in my group. And who the feth runs vespids? Gtfo
Automatically Appended Next Post:
sorry i had to make this two posts because i was laughing so hard about that video. That was a poor example of assault still being ok.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/11/25 22:48:49
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/24 22:14:59
Subject: Current State of Meta (returning player)
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Fixture of Dakka
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Renegade_commander wrote:Lol... that ork list would get smoked by anyone in my group. And who the feth runs vespids? Gtfo Automatically Appended Next Post: sorry i had to make this two posts because i was laughing so hard about that video. That was a poor example of assault still being ok. Say it until you play against it. All I can say is that he's played variations on this list against people that have said the same thing who used all the new lists and has won against them more often than not.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/25 22:49:03
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/24 22:19:15
Subject: Current State of Meta (returning player)
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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I've played against Ork lists meaner than that. I'd gladly take it on as a break from "Taudar makes me pick up all my meqs in 3 turns".
Any given Ork list at least lets an meq list try to play their game. No such luck with Taudar. Anything within 36" starts getting melted immediately.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/24 22:24:25
Subject: Re:Current State of Meta (returning player)
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Sneaky Lictor
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Okay, been at work so I haven't had a chance to post what I wanted to when I read this thread this morning...
Anonymou5, I read through the list you were linking to for the GT and I have to say...just because a list as an element of assault in it, when it also has 5+ Wave Serpents it is NOT an assault army. It is a shooting army with one assault unit. The only list I saw on there that I would consider an assault list were the Flying Circus list and that is a fair point, but ONLY CD have access to flying MCs like that.
On that point, marine bike armies are not great at assault and their strength lies in the heavy weapons and speed they can bring to the table. They are one of the better counters to Tau at this point but really they aren't any good against a Tau player who knows what they are doing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/24 22:28:24
Subject: Current State of Meta (returning player)
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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A hallmark of an assault army is that it doesn't participate much in the shooting phase. That seems fatal in 6th edition right there.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/24 22:28:56
Subject: Current State of Meta (returning player)
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Fixture of Dakka
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Martel732 wrote:I've played against Ork lists meaner than that. I'd gladly take it on as a break from "Taudar makes me pick up all my meqs in 3 turns".
Any given Ork list at least lets an meq list try to play their game. No such luck with Taudar. Anything within 36" starts getting melted immediately.
He can make some fairly good lists. This is his "playing a friendly game list". If he is looking to face a more competitive player, he can put out quite a bit different army on the table. As I said, he placed 6th nationaly in the first 'ard boyz tournament, so he knows his way around a competitive Ork list.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/24 22:35:18
Subject: Current State of Meta (returning player)
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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But 'Ard boyz was 5th edition. Lots of armies still had 3rd edition codices in 5th edition.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/24 22:50:51
Subject: Current State of Meta (returning player)
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Fixture of Dakka
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Martel732 wrote:But 'Ard boyz was 5th edition. Lots of armies still had 3rd edition codices in 5th edition.
True, but he all of a sudden didn't turn into a crappy player just because of the edition change and wins far more often than not in 6th with his Orks. A lot comes down to the skill of the player. A good player, such as him, can make an assault list work. It might be harder in this edition, but it is still doable.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/24 22:55:03
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/24 23:20:56
Subject: Re:Current State of Meta (returning player)
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
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Arbiter_Shade wrote:Okay, been at work so I haven't had a chance to post what I wanted to when I read this thread this morning...
Anonymou5, I read through the list you were linking to for the GT and I have to say...just because a list as an element of assault in it, when it also has 5+ Wave Serpents it is NOT an assault army. It is a shooting army with one assault unit. The only list I saw on there that I would consider an assault list were the Flying Circus list and that is a fair point, but ONLY CD have access to flying MCs like that.
On that point, marine bike armies are not great at assault and their strength lies in the heavy weapons and speed they can bring to the table. They are one of the better counters to Tau at this point but really they aren't any good against a Tau player who knows what they are doing.
No. The Seer Council is an assault Army. It's not winning because it has 5 Serpents shooting, they are the support piece. It wins because it multi assaults entire Tau/Eldar armies on Turn 2 and kills them. It is absolutely an assault Army. You can argue it's not a fair barometer because it's nigh invincible (and that's a fair point), but don't say it doesn't count because it has shooting in it.
Now, looking at the top 8 lists (the top bracket), there are two Circuses (one Tzeentch in 1st, one Slaanesh in 7th). There are two Seer Councils. One has 5 Serpents (placed second) and one has 4 and a WK (placed 8th). Those are assault lists. Finally there is the Spawn Tide list (placed 5th). It has Abaddon, a Juggerlord, a Nurgle Bike Lord 15 Spawn, two Maulerfiends a Drake and some Havocs. That list has almost NO shooting. Again, that's 5/8 Assault lists.
Two lists have strong assault elements but are primarily shooting. The Ovesa Star (placed sixth) and Khan Bikers (placed 4th). The Ovesa Star, if you've ever seen it in action, actually assaults fairly often. Obviously it's primarily a shooting element, but it does use Assault. Khan Bikers, again are mostly shooting, but that Chapter Master isn't carrying his Powerfist because it looks cool. And Bikers are great at assaulting to hide from shooting, then hit and run out and do it again.
The remaining list of the top 8 is the Eldau list (3rd). It's Kurt Claus's list, and it's not entirely without assault. I played him at the ATC and he charged my Daemons list twice. Once with the Riptide/Buff Commander/Farseer into my Khorne Dogs, and again with a WK into my Dogs.
5/8 are assault focused, and three of those are almost entirely assault (Spawntide, two Flying Circuses). 2 are shooting focused but have very important assault elements. 1 is mostly shooting but maintains good counter assault.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/24 23:22:20
Subject: Current State of Meta (returning player)
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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The seer council would be a lot less scary if the Wave serpent wasn't broken. Kinda like in 5th.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/24 23:28:48
Subject: Current State of Meta (returning player)
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
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Martel732 wrote:The seer council would be a lot less scary if the Wave serpent wasn't broken. Kinda like in 5th.
Ever played against it with Venoms and Wraith Knights instead of Serpents? In some ways it's a lot better. For one it never fails psychic tests. For another the WKs provide anti AV 14, and additional assault threats coming up the table. I played against that version at the Redstone Rumble and he kept tossing invis on his WKs, and against my Daemons it was arguably a lot better than having a bunch of Serpents. I won by avoiding assault with pretty much his whole Army and just kiting everything and contesting objectives at the end. That's right, a Daemon Circus couldn't assault an Eldar Army.
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