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Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Brisbane, Australia

Well, possibly, though I thought it dovetailed nicely with the American "Nuclear Option" thread.

From the Washington Post


Iran, world powers reach historic nuclear deal

GENEVA — Iran and six major powers agreed early Sunday on a historic deal that freezes key parts of Iran’s nuclear program in exchange for temporary relief on some economic sanctions, diplomats confirmed.

The deal was reached after four days of marathon bargaining and an eleventh-hour intervention by Secretary of State John F. Kerry and foreign ministers from Europe, Russia and China, the sources said.

The agreement, sealed at a 3 a.m. signing ceremony in Geneva’s Palace of Nations, requires Iran to halt or scale back parts of its nuclear infrastructure, the first such pause in more than a decade.

“We have reached an agreement,” Michael Mann, spokesman for European Union foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton, said in a Twitter posting that was echoed by a separate posting by Iranian Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif.

The deal, intended as a first step toward a more comprehensive nuclear pact to be completed in six months, freezes or reverses progress at all of Iran’s major nuclear facilities, according to Western officials familiar with the details. It halts the installation of new centrifuges used to enrich uranium and caps the amount and type of enriched uranium that Iran is allowed to produce.

Iran also agreed to halt work on key components of a heavy-water reactor that could someday provide Iran with a source of plutonium. In addition, Iran accepted a dramatic increase in oversight, including daily monitoring by international nuclear inspectors, the officials said.

The concessions not only halt Iran’s nuclear advances but also make it virtually impossible for Tehran to build a nuclear weapon without being detected, the officials said. In return, Iran will receive modest relief of trade sanctions and access to some of its frozen currency accounts overseas, concessions said to be valued at less than $7 billion over the six-month term of the deal. The sanctions would be reinstated if Iran violates the agreement’s terms.

Speaking at the White House after the deal with announced, President Obama praised the negotiators. “We have pursued intensive diplomacy,” he said. “Today that diplomacy opened up a new path toward a world that’s more secure.” he said.

“For the first time in nearly a decade we have halted parts of Iran’s nuclear program.”

The agreement is a long-sought victory for the Obama administration, which from its earliest days made the Iranian nuclear program one of its top foreign policy priorities. The administration, helped by its overseas allies as well as Congress, achieved unprecedented success in imposing harsh economic sanctions that cut Iran’s oil exports in half and decimated the country’s currency. It was hoping to quickly finalize an agreement in the face of threats by Congress to impose additional economic sanctions on Iran.

The deal is also a victory for Kerry, who traveled to Geneva twice in two weeks to participate in the negotiations.

Still, the agreement is likely to face heavy opposition from key allies — chiefly Israel and Saudi Arabia — as well as congressional skeptics who have demanded much greater concessions from Iran, including the dismantling of its enrichment program.


So there's still a lot more to bargain on, but it's not bad for an initial agreement. Seems the new Iranian President is at least willing to bargain a bit, so lets hope this is just the first small step of many.

Looking for a club in Brisbane, Australia? Come and enjoy a game and a beer at Pubhammer, our friendly club in a pub at the Junction pub in Annerley (opposite Ace Comics), Sunday nights from 6:30. All brisbanites welcome, don't wait, check out our Club Page on Facebook group for details or to organize a game. We play all sorts of board and war games, so hit us up if you're interested.


Pubhammer is Moving! Starting from the 25th of May we'll be gaming at The Junction pub (AKA The Muddy Farmer), opposite Ace Comics & Games in Annerley! Still Sunday nights from 6:30 in the Function room Come along and play Warmachine, 40k, boardgames or anything else! 
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

If I were the Iranians, I would agree to the outlines above and secretly continue pursuing nuclear weapons. They are essential to their national security.

As an American, I hope it sticks, since a nuclear-capable Iran is not in our own best interests - though I think its also totally inevitable anyway unless we take extreme action we haven't the political capital to expend.

Also, anyone else snicker when reading "Israel and Saudia Arabia are key allies"? Yeah, those guys have been great friends to this country.



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/24 08:58:27


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in us
Imperial Admiral




It's a roundly worthless deal with a six month expiration date that gets the Iranians far, far more than it costs them, especially considering it could cost them absolutely nothing if they choose. If this is a foreign policy victory, I have no idea what you could possibly classify as a defeat.

And Israel's been a solid friend to the US, though whoever takes office after Obama is going to have some serious fences to mend.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/24 09:55:02


 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions






 Seaward wrote:
It's a roundly worthless deal with a six month expiration date that gets the Iranians far, far more than it costs them, especially considering it could cost them absolutely nothing if they choose. If this is a foreign policy victory, I have no idea what you could possibly classify as a defeat.

And Israel's been a solid friend to the US, though whoever takes office after Obama is going to have some serious fences to mend.

That "red line" that Syria crossed?

 
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

Eh, why even

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/11/24 10:46:55


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Glasgow, Scotland

Yeah, the Israeli's aren't too happy about it (though they wouldn't be satisfied even with total nuclear development closure). Its the point that no way's this going to stop the Iranian's producing Nuclear weapons in the long run, if it'll even slow them down at all. The whole thing just comes across as a show to placate the west, its done nothing to sort out any of the local problems. Meh, we'll see if this can stave off a war with Iran for a few years I guess. =/

   
Made in us
Martial Arts Fiday






Nashville, TN

Doesn't Congress have to approve easing of sanctions?


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Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Doesn't Congress have to approve easing of sanctions?


Yes and no. We're using "sanctions" as a blanket term here, but we are using a combination of legislative-based sanctions (which would presumably require the legislative's approval) and executive orders, which would not; requiring only a countermanding executive order.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in us
Most Glorious Grey Seer





Everett, WA

When I read the title, I was hoping to see a comment about how Iran decided to keep the filibuster in place.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/24 13:43:51


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

 Wyrmalla wrote:
Yeah, the Israeli's aren't too happy about it (though they wouldn't be satisfied even with total nuclear development closure).



I'm more curious as to how the Saudis will react. I suspect during the 6 months they will be setting up transfer of nukes from Pakistan (or update the existing plans) and depending on the results of this will quietly become a nuclear power in the next year.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/24 14:29:30


Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Glasgow, Scotland

Or the Israelis could toss them a couple of Jerichos. Youknow, considering that they don't officially exist, so nobody can call them on them. ...That's how politics works right?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






The interesting thing to me was how flowery and sappy the MSN report was. When I read the report, they made it sound like Kerry was some sort of diplomatic Master and this "deal" was something akin to Camp David.

All I could think of was Chamberlain's "We have attained Peace in our time" speech.

There is no way Iran stops their development, they probably have built some sort of "andromeda strain" secret facility somewhere in the desert, that inspectors will not know about.

I'm not saying that the Obama administration should'nt be praised for trying...but my God the world needs to eat an Island of salt concerning this deal.

GG
   
Made in us
Fate-Controlling Farseer





Fort Campbell

Yeah... anyone who believes that we actually got anything from this deal... well I've got some "hope and change" to sell you.

Full Frontal Nerdity 
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

And like that, we smoothly move from Obama as a bloody-handed warmonger to the Neville Chamberlain allegories.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

 Wyrmalla wrote:
Or the Israelis could toss them a couple of Jerichos. Youknow, considering that they don't officially exist, so nobody can call them on them. ...That's how politics works right?


I doubt the Israelis give up theirs. The Saudis helped fund the Pakistani effort, rumored reason being to have access if needed, I suspect that will be the Saudi source.

Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Ouze wrote:
And like that, we smoothly move from Obama as a bloody-handed warmonger to the Neville Chamberlain allegories.

Well... to be fair... his administration do use copious amounts of drones.

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





This agreement could work, provided Iran actually does dilute its uranium AND inspectors are allowed to verify it.

The inspectors being allowed in is the big thing, as if for any reason the P5+1 isn't happy with what Iran is allowing inspectors to see, they can institute sanctions without too much fuss.

I won't say I'm thrilled that Iran is allowed to keep its nuclear program for civilian purposes, but this new president seems far more level headed than the last, and instead of these negotiations ending in everyone bailing from the table, something got agreed to. If Iran actually keeps to the bargain, with inspectors able to verify it, this might end up being ok.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Why does this all seem similar to the Iraq's nuclear inspection ordeal?

I don't doubt for a moment that the Saudi is working towards their own nuclear armaments... they don't exactly need "ballistic" missile capabilities...

But, hey... at least Syria is happy!

In favor of this deal: Obama, Syria, Iran, Russia, China, the EU.
Opposed: Israel.

Biggest takeaway I see though is this:
The U.S. and other major powers have basically conceded an international norm of enrichment, which was never accepted until now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/24 18:07:07


Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 DogofWar1 wrote:
This agreement could work, provided Iran actually does dilute its uranium AND inspectors are allowed to verify it.
.


And that's why it won't work. The Iranian president whoever he is, is nothing more than a mouthpiece for the Shiite Clerics.

They will put on a show for a while, it's North Korea part Tre'.

GG
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Perhaps, but in Iraq and North Korea, inspectors were never fully allowed to carry out their duties.

IIRC, Hussein was a little testy with inspectors so Bush declared Iraq non-compliant and launched the war. And North Korea expelled their inspectors.

While this agreement could certainly fail, I wouldn't peg it as a dog and pony show just yet. Getting inspectors into the country was a major step.

Even if this fails, it gives the US important cover from a foreign relations standpoint if things do escalate. It's tougher for Russia and the like to defend Iran if they've been non-compliant with an actual agreement, than if we escalate without there having ever been an agreement in place.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 DogofWar1 wrote:
Perhaps, but in Iraq and North Korea, inspectors were never fully allowed to carry out their duties.

IIRC, Hussein was a little testy with inspectors so Bush declared Iraq non-compliant and launched the war. And North Korea expelled their inspectors.

While this agreement could certainly fail, I wouldn't peg it as a dog and pony show just yet. Getting inspectors into the country was a major step.

Even if this fails, it gives the US important cover from a foreign relations standpoint if things do escalate. It's tougher for Russia and the like to defend Iran if they've been non-compliant with an actual agreement, than if we escalate without there having ever been an agreement in place.


I hear ya, but this is how I predict this will play out(or something similar).

1)Inspectors show up and start to visit the usual sites.
2)After a few months of visitations everything seems to be going well.
3)Israeli intelligence funnels information about secret enrichment sites.
4) Inspectors ask to look at those sites.
5) Iran says the info you got is wrong, that is only an infant formula factory.
6) Inspector..we would still like to see the site.
7) Iran says how dare you insult us...the program is over you infidel.

GG


   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

A complete waste of time.

Iran will not follow this, or any other, deal we could possible make with them.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

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Made in us
Dakka Veteran





 generalgrog wrote:

7) Iran says how dare you insult us...the program is over you infidel.


Yes, that could happen, but if it does they'd be in violation of the agreement, which would allow the US to have the moral high ground with the international community, something we'll need if things escalate. It's much easier to get the international community behind us if we tried negotiating before fighting.

I'm also more optimistic about Iran today than before. The previous Iranian leaders would have never wished Jews a happy Rosh Hashanah, but this new President did.

There weren't really any good alternatives here either. Anything weighed more in our favor, and Iran walks away, anything more in Iran's favor (like no inspectors or enrichment %s), and we walk/get an ineffective deal. Unless military action is what you desire, getting this deal done was probably the best short term thing, and if it works it creates a solid framework for a long term solution.
   
Made in us
Imperial Admiral




 DogofWar1 wrote:
Yes, that could happen, but if it does they'd be in violation of the agreement, which would allow the US to have the moral high ground with the international community, something we'll need if things escalate. It's much easier to get the international community behind us if we tried negotiating before fighting.

I find it rather odd that the belief we've never attempted to negotiate with Iran over the issue before is so prevalent.

I'm also more optimistic about Iran today than before. The previous Iranian leaders would have never wished Jews a happy Rosh Hashanah, but this new President did.

Yeah, but the Ayatollah runs the country, not the president.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Brisbane, Australia

 Seaward wrote:
 DogofWar1 wrote:
Yes, that could happen, but if it does they'd be in violation of the agreement, which would allow the US to have the moral high ground with the international community, something we'll need if things escalate. It's much easier to get the international community behind us if we tried negotiating before fighting.

I find it rather odd that the belief we've never attempted to negotiate with Iran over the issue before is so prevalent.

I'm also more optimistic about Iran today than before. The previous Iranian leaders would have never wished Jews a happy Rosh Hashanah, but this new President did.

Yeah, but the Ayatollah runs the country, not the president.


That's correct, but saying that the President has no power is still incorrect as well. The President has to obey the Ayatollah, but the president is an elected head, and that does give him some power as an indicator of popular sentiment - that is to say, while the President can't cross the Ayatollah, the Ayatollah will be wary of completely overwriting the President, as that could lead to more political instability, which has plagued Iran in recent times. If these first moves towards normalizing relations and lifting sanctions at the cost of it's nuclear program are popular enough among the Iranian citizenry, it's not inconceivable that further and more serious deals could be made.

It's a process, lets see where it goes to before we start singing the bomb-bomb-bomb-Iran song, because another Iraq situation is nearly as undesirable for the USA and its allies as it is for Iran.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/25 11:06:24


Looking for a club in Brisbane, Australia? Come and enjoy a game and a beer at Pubhammer, our friendly club in a pub at the Junction pub in Annerley (opposite Ace Comics), Sunday nights from 6:30. All brisbanites welcome, don't wait, check out our Club Page on Facebook group for details or to organize a game. We play all sorts of board and war games, so hit us up if you're interested.


Pubhammer is Moving! Starting from the 25th of May we'll be gaming at The Junction pub (AKA The Muddy Farmer), opposite Ace Comics & Games in Annerley! Still Sunday nights from 6:30 in the Function room Come along and play Warmachine, 40k, boardgames or anything else! 
   
Made in us
Imperial Admiral




It's not really at the cost of Iran's nuclear program though, is it? It's at the cost of Iran saying that it is.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Brisbane, Australia

 Seaward wrote:
It's not really at the cost of Iran's nuclear program though, is it? It's at the cost of Iran saying that it is.


Yes, which is why it'll be a game of trying to verify whether what's been told to US by Iran is truthful or not, and it'll involve inspectors, intelligence gathering and so on. That's what these early small deals are about (and the US is only raising the sanctions on a comparatively small amount), testing the waters to see how free Iran will actually be about letting outsiders inspect it's nuclear program, and if it's intransigent, sanctions will stay in place, and it'll be back to square one. At any rate, real nuclear programs are not simple things, it'll be hard for them to cover their tracks completely, and even if they manged to, the added secrecy and outside scrutiny will make it harder for them to progress their program at the same speed, which is a win for the US anyway.

The thing is, if you believe it is completely impossible to either trust or verify the claims of the Iranians under any conditions, then there is only one answer left - war. And that didn't work out so well in Iraq, which actually didn't have useable WMDs anyway.

Looking for a club in Brisbane, Australia? Come and enjoy a game and a beer at Pubhammer, our friendly club in a pub at the Junction pub in Annerley (opposite Ace Comics), Sunday nights from 6:30. All brisbanites welcome, don't wait, check out our Club Page on Facebook group for details or to organize a game. We play all sorts of board and war games, so hit us up if you're interested.


Pubhammer is Moving! Starting from the 25th of May we'll be gaming at The Junction pub (AKA The Muddy Farmer), opposite Ace Comics & Games in Annerley! Still Sunday nights from 6:30 in the Function room Come along and play Warmachine, 40k, boardgames or anything else! 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

 Maddermax wrote:


The thing is, if you believe it is completely impossible to either trust or verify the claims of the Iranians under any conditions, then there is only one answer left - war. And that didn't work out so well in Iraq, which actually didn't have useable WMDs anyway.


A couple of points.

1. You have more than the war option. You could also decide to accept a nuclear Iran, you could keep or increase sanctions, you could strengthen regional allies. There are always other options.

2. The 2003 Iraq thing is relatively useless as a comparison. Strikes against the Al Kabar facility in Syria or the Osirak facility in Iraq may be much better models, or even the 1998 strikes against Iraq. Destroying Iranian nuclear capability should not necessitate much of an invasion let alone an occupation. A solid air campaign coupled with select raids would suffice.


Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Brisbane, Australia

 CptJake wrote:
 Maddermax wrote:


The thing is, if you believe it is completely impossible to either trust or verify the claims of the Iranians under any conditions, then there is only one answer left - war. And that didn't work out so well in Iraq, which actually didn't have useable WMDs anyway.


A couple of points.

1. You have more than the war option. You could also decide to accept a nuclear Iran, you could keep or increase sanctions, you could strengthen regional allies. There are always other options.

2. The 2003 Iraq thing is relatively useless as a comparison. Strikes against the Al Kabar facility in Syria or the Osirak facility in Iraq may be much better models, or even the 1998 strikes against Iraq. Destroying Iranian nuclear capability should not necessitate much of an invasion let alone an occupation. A solid air campaign coupled with select raids would suffice.



Appologies on 1, but I meant it in the context of not wanting a nuclear armed Iran (so accepting it or just keeping sanctions which will slow but not stop it's program would both be unacceptable to that end).

As for 2, putting aside that Iran is much more capable than Iraq or Syria were during those strikes, if you know where to strike to stop their nuclear program then you should know where to inspect to verify the terms of any deals are being kept. The premise of the sentence you quoted was that you would be unable to verify their actions in terms of their nuclear program.

Looking for a club in Brisbane, Australia? Come and enjoy a game and a beer at Pubhammer, our friendly club in a pub at the Junction pub in Annerley (opposite Ace Comics), Sunday nights from 6:30. All brisbanites welcome, don't wait, check out our Club Page on Facebook group for details or to organize a game. We play all sorts of board and war games, so hit us up if you're interested.


Pubhammer is Moving! Starting from the 25th of May we'll be gaming at The Junction pub (AKA The Muddy Farmer), opposite Ace Comics & Games in Annerley! Still Sunday nights from 6:30 in the Function room Come along and play Warmachine, 40k, boardgames or anything else! 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

This means in a year Iran is nuc-u-lar, Saudi Arabia is nuc-u-lar, maybe Kuwait and Qatar as well. The US will no fight.

Assuming Israel and Iran didn't go mano o mano of course.

I'll get some popcorn. This should be fun to watch.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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