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Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant






The problem with upping their wound, toughness stat or giving them eternal warrior is characters in terminator Armour, you can't justify not giving them the same buffs.

Imagine the scary Iron Hands chapter master but not needing to buy the relic shield, so having a greater variety of weapon (burning blade and thunder hammer and a storm shield) and having plus 1 wound, in a squad of toughness 5 two wound eternal warriors...

Suddenly termies would be amazing due to being some of the best bodyguards for a commander in the game.

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endlesswaltz123 wrote:
The problem with upping their wound, toughness stat or giving them eternal warrior is characters in terminator Armour, you can't justify not giving them the same buffs.

Imagine the scary Iron Hands chapter master but not needing to buy the relic shield, so having a greater variety of weapon (burning blade and thunder hammer and a storm shield) and having plus 1 wound, in a squad of toughness 5 two wound eternal warriors...

Suddenly termies would be amazing due to being some of the best bodyguards for a commander in the game.


Considering Chosen Terminators used to be Chaos' Retinue at one point, Chaos Figured they were.
   
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A bit late on it but my game using the -1 to str/ap of ranged weapons worked awesome. plasma? wounds well but still armor. Melta? ow. bolters? lol. game basically came down to the last 3 members of my csm squad (melta, melta, champion) running away in their rhino, which had self-repaired its immobilization, running away from the knights, while zhufor + his 5 khorne termies were in a massive slugfest with belial + his 5 regular termies. He had a 3rd unit but after a my zerkers charged, he failed a ton of 2+ saves and lost 4 of the 6 that were in the squad on the charge alone. Overally I'm thinking that my group will probably do this as a unanymous vote in (except maybe our eldar player).

All in all I'm thinking that this would be an amazing USR to put in. This way we can have things with a regular-ish toughness (4/5) that are SUPER durable without needing to be t8/9/10. Have it be a part of the USR's terminator armor has in general, maybe give it to MANZ, have it be an upgrade to tyranid warriors,and necron lytchguard (those are the shieldy ones right?). I'd hate to do a direct rip, but Involitile Armour (what the IH legion tactic is called IIRC) would work fine as a name for it.

I know everyone is dead set on OMG THEY NEED TO COST 15 POINTS LESS!!! or HURR 2 WOUND W2+3++ IS TOTALLY BALANCED ON A 40 POINT MODEL. That is what I call a 'bandaid fix' It gives an honestly unwarranted and unneeded bonus that really does nothing to address the real issue, which is the fact that things like the Riptide's ion cannon, bladestorm, and plasmaspam armies have become the norm, which completely invalidates what used to be slow moving units that would just soak fire by virtue of what they are.

My only -slight- concern is if we do make this a BRB usr, then dudes like Abaddon, Typhus, Draigo, and even some non-SC terminator HQ's are going to be near impossible to gun down (makes sense for them honestly) and the fact that they are so freakin' killy in CC it might make them ever so slightly imbalanced. On the other hand, for about the same cost as typhus you can get a decently kitted-out riptide. And considering most of the super-killy termy CC characters normally cost about the same as a LR phobos, it would totally justify their cost. Heh, people might actually bother taking calgar in his termie armor instead of artificer if they dont have to worry so much about plasma.
   
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endlesswaltz123 wrote:
The problem with upping their wound, toughness stat or giving them eternal warrior is characters in terminator Armour, you can't justify not giving them the same buffs.

Imagine the scary Iron Hands chapter master but not needing to buy the relic shield, so having a greater variety of weapon (burning blade and thunder hammer and a storm shield) and having plus 1 wound, in a squad of toughness 5 two wound eternal warriors...

Suddenly termies would be amazing due to being some of the best bodyguards for a commander in the game.


The commander wouldn't be on a bike, so he'd be trading speed for durability. Terminators are pretty common as retinues in the fluff. I don't see the issue.

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Made in gb
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The issue isn't them being retinues and being good retinues, it is giving them certain buffs that can then be applied to commanders in terminator armour as well that are then overpowered.

The idea of a 2W eternal warrior terminator bodyguard isn't that scary, it's the idea of there also being +1W eternal warrior character with them, or not with them but also on the field that is the problem.

You need to buff the squads, but not the Armour so much if you get what I mean. FNP wouldn't be too bad, but +1W's etc is big... I also think they should be different to Centurions.

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Trustworthy Shas'vre




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More bling, and their own theme music.

more shoulder pads would be nice too, but other than that, my 80 something termies are fine (might be 90, have a lot still not built).

They got a huge boost when generic power weapons went to AP3, and lost some of it when AP2 weapons became more common (did anyone not see that coming?).

I feel they were a bit OP in 5th, but are fine now.
But that is my opinion based upon my experience of multiple armies* in 5th and 6th- of course others may feel differently.

*(multiple armies means other than a marine flavor - just remember the grass is ALWAYS greener on the other side of the codex).

DavePak
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The power weapon change was not a boost at all since if you were going to assault stuff that can hit you back through your armor save, you should be taking TH/SS and not using your PF tactical terminators to assault them.

The AP2 weaponry increase isn't "losing some". It's losing the entire reason you're paying 40+ points for these gakky 40mm 1 wound models. It's a huge nerf and the reason terminators aren't even worth playing because their armor save that took up the majority of their points cost is basically non-existent.

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Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant






The power weapon changes were a slight buff to terminators. Some units from older editions that would have wiped a terminator squad out are now little more effective than guardsmen (howling banshees I'm looking at you.)

Also power weapons are no longer able to effectively able to bring down terminators at regular initiative, only poweraxes ignore 2+, and they are unwieldy as well as your PFs, meaning your terminators are more likely to get attacks in now before they are killed.

As far as melee goes, this was quite favourable for the terminators. However, these are slight buffs to melee capability, in an edition that favours shooting. Still, every little helps I suppose.

   
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endlesswaltz123 wrote:
The issue isn't them being retinues and being good retinues, it is giving them certain buffs that can then be applied to commanders in terminator armour as well that are then overpowered.

The idea of a 2W eternal warrior terminator bodyguard isn't that scary, it's the idea of there also being +1W eternal warrior character with them, or not with them but also on the field that is the problem.

You need to buff the squads, but not the Armour so much if you get what I mean. FNP wouldn't be too bad, but +1W's etc is big... I also think they should be different to Centurions.


You'd be a melee character on foot in an edition where melee is subpar who only has access to either Drop Pod deployment, in which case there's no room for Terminators, or a Land Raider that costs as much as he does (or you could Deep Strike him, but let's be realistic). I don't see the problem.

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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
endlesswaltz123 wrote:
The issue isn't them being retinues and being good retinues, it is giving them certain buffs that can then be applied to commanders in terminator armour as well that are then overpowered.

The idea of a 2W eternal warrior terminator bodyguard isn't that scary, it's the idea of there also being +1W eternal warrior character with them, or not with them but also on the field that is the problem.

You need to buff the squads, but not the Armour so much if you get what I mean. FNP wouldn't be too bad, but +1W's etc is big... I also think they should be different to Centurions.


You'd be a melee character on foot in an edition where melee is subpar who only has access to either Drop Pod deployment, in which case there's no room for Terminators, or a Land Raider that costs as much as he does (or you could Deep Strike him, but let's be realistic). I don't see the problem.


Honestly at this point I believe Deep Striking needs to become more useful again, because it's supposed to be a huge part of the game but it has so many issues. Most people won't do it unless it's a very safe option like 'No scattering' Dante types, or Drop Pods.

It'd at least clear up some slight bit of CSM's bad mobility if their deep strikers actually mattered. You generally need to be either fast on foot, or have a good transport to hit the front lines, which doesn't make sense in an era where you see plenty of Terminators teleport in, and clear out entire sieges.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/26 12:52:51


 
   
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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
endlesswaltz123 wrote:
The issue isn't them being retinues and being good retinues, it is giving them certain buffs that can then be applied to commanders in terminator armour as well that are then overpowered.

The idea of a 2W eternal warrior terminator bodyguard isn't that scary, it's the idea of there also being +1W eternal warrior character with them, or not with them but also on the field that is the problem.

You need to buff the squads, but not the Armour so much if you get what I mean. FNP wouldn't be too bad, but +1W's etc is big... I also think they should be different to Centurions.


You'd be a melee character on foot in an edition where melee is subpar who only has access to either Drop Pod deployment, in which case there's no room for Terminators, or a Land Raider that costs as much as he does (or you could Deep Strike him, but let's be realistic). I don't see the problem.


Honestly at this point I believe Deep Striking needs to become more useful again, because it's supposed to be a huge part of the game but it has so many issues. Most people won't do it unless it's a very safe option like 'No scattering' Dante types, or Drop Pods.

It'd at least clear up some slight bit of CSM's bad mobility if their deep strikers actually mattered. You generally need to be either fast on foot, or have a good transport to hit the front lines, which doesn't make sense in an era where you see plenty of Terminators teleport in, and clear out entire sieges.


Reserves in general could use a revamp TBH.

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Definitely agree with better ranged weapons. It seems a waste to give something that has relentless an assault weapon. Combi weapons like chaos termies are a little better, but maybe a heavy bolter or multimelta option would make their footslog a bit more useful. I run da with two squads of hammershield deathwing and at least they can mix it up a bit more with heavy weapons. Maybe more per squad would be good too? Like 2 per 5. I seem to recall seeing cataphracti terminators with twin linked plasma guns, that could work

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 StarHunter25 wrote:
A bit late on it but my game using the -1 to str/ap of ranged weapons worked awesome. plasma? wounds well but still armor. Melta? ow. bolters? lol. game basically came down to the last 3 members of my csm squad (melta, melta, champion) running away in their rhino, which had self-repaired its immobilization, running away from the knights, while zhufor + his 5 khorne termies were in a massive slugfest with belial + his 5 regular termies. He had a 3rd unit but after a my zerkers charged, he failed a ton of 2+ saves and lost 4 of the 6 that were in the squad on the charge alone. Overally I'm thinking that my group will probably do this as a unanymous vote in (except maybe our eldar player).
[...]
I know everyone is dead set on OMG THEY NEED TO COST 15 POINTS LESS!!! or HURR 2 WOUND W2+3++ IS TOTALLY BALANCED ON A 40 POINT MODEL. That is what I call a 'bandaid fix' It gives an honestly unwarranted and unneeded bonus that really does nothing to address the real issue, which is the fact that things like the Riptide's ion cannon, bladestorm, and plasmaspam armies have become the norm, which completely invalidates what used to be slow moving units that would just soak fire by virtue of what they are.

Yes, make fun of others but ignore the fact that it takes three (3) vendettas to take down a single terminator.
4W EW terminator characters would basically be more resistant than some super heavies.

It would take 18 avengers to kill one terminator.

Fun and balanced...

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1) Give them T5 and 4++. This makes them more resilient against both AP2 and volume of fire, without complicating the game like FNP or 2W would (no extra rolls, no tallying wounds.) It will also make TDA more attractive choice for characters.
2) Change Storm Bolters to Salvo 2/4. As they're relentless, this effectively doubles their firepower. It will also mean that SB is much better on Termies that it is on PA marines, which is fitting as it was originally a terminator weapon. (PA GK will be affected but will still work and not be OP.)
3) Remove the inability to sweep. If you manage to get to CC, you should be allowed to crush the enemies at your leisure, without them running away to shoot you.
4) Make teleporting more accurate, re-roll scatter, etc.

   
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 Macok wrote:
 StarHunter25 wrote:
A bit late on it but my game using the -1 to str/ap of ranged weapons worked awesome. plasma? wounds well but still armor. Melta? ow. bolters? lol. game basically came down to the last 3 members of my csm squad (melta, melta, champion) running away in their rhino, which had self-repaired its immobilization, running away from the knights, while zhufor + his 5 khorne termies were in a massive slugfest with belial + his 5 regular termies. He had a 3rd unit but after a my zerkers charged, he failed a ton of 2+ saves and lost 4 of the 6 that were in the squad on the charge alone. Overally I'm thinking that my group will probably do this as a unanymous vote in (except maybe our eldar player).
[...]
I know everyone is dead set on OMG THEY NEED TO COST 15 POINTS LESS!!! or HURR 2 WOUND W2+3++ IS TOTALLY BALANCED ON A 40 POINT MODEL. That is what I call a 'bandaid fix' It gives an honestly unwarranted and unneeded bonus that really does nothing to address the real issue, which is the fact that things like the Riptide's ion cannon, bladestorm, and plasmaspam armies have become the norm, which completely invalidates what used to be slow moving units that would just soak fire by virtue of what they are.

Yes, make fun of others but ignore the fact that it takes three (3) vendettas to take down a single terminator.
4W EW terminator characters would basically be more resistant than some super heavies.

It would take 18 avengers to kill one terminator.

Fun and balanced...


You know damn well terminators never achieve their mathematical duties on the tabletop.

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Auckland, New Zealand

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


It'd at least clear up some slight bit of CSM's bad mobility if their deep strikers actually mattered. You generally need to be either fast on foot, or have a good transport to hit the front lines, which doesn't make sense in an era where you see plenty of Terminators teleport in, and clear out entire sieges.


All chaos icons gain the same 'teleport homer' effect as Daemons. 1d6 scatter in general, no scatter if same god. Done, awesome.
   
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 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


It'd at least clear up some slight bit of CSM's bad mobility if their deep strikers actually mattered. You generally need to be either fast on foot, or have a good transport to hit the front lines, which doesn't make sense in an era where you see plenty of Terminators teleport in, and clear out entire sieges.


All chaos icons gain the same 'teleport homer' effect as Daemons. 1d6 scatter in general, no scatter if same god. Done, awesome.


That's still just a bandage for the fact that deepstriking is pretty poor.

Also it wouldn't fix any of the worthless deepstriking melee who'll get shot down soon as they enter.
   
Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant






As a quick fix for Deathwing terminators this is what I would like to see:


-4 points per model: this would bring them in line with their SM counterparts. Of course DW are better, but codices should be compared to one another, and not units. DA do not have grav guns, storm talons or centurions. They should have better terminators, not more expensive ones.

Heavy weapon costs reduced by 5 points. Terminators already pay a premium per model to get heavy weapons, so 20 point CMLs wouldn't be too much to ask. (This would exclude TH/SS and chainfists, they should stay at 5 pts).

Double Heavy weapon options. As many peple have said, 1 heavy weapon for a unit costing 200+ points is too little. Having 2 per squad would give them a more respectable amount of firepower.

What does this mean? Well a 5 man DW squad with a CML will cost you 245 points at the moment. If these changes were added then the same squad could be 5 men with 2 CMLs for 240 points.
Nothing overpowered, but gives the DW a little more breathing room in list creation, as well as firepower.


One other thing I would love to see on DW termies is a plasma cannon - CML variant. A shoulder mounted plasma battery that fires 2 plasma blasts per turn. Cost should be the same as a CML. The plasma cannon is a little underwhelming for a terminator weapon.
Edit: Possibly give it a secondary fire function, where is will fire as 2 plasmaguns (gives it a better anti-vehicle role at close range, and something to do vs air).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/02 04:42:03


 
   
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We've made the universal TDA = +1 T in our club. Seems to be working well.

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I would paint them better, a new scheme maybe, my old one has just not come to where I want it yet.

Other than that, they are fine, its players' expectations that should change.

You think the termies have problems with all the shots out there...try the armies with the guys who don't have 2+ saves.

Honestly, there is amazing value in playing multiple types of amries (i.e. not just all flavors of marines...of which, I play three by the way) but others as well (guard, xenos, etc.).

When I play my termies, they hug cover, just like my other armies do...where as my friends who were not used to it, are getting slaughtered by grave guns and lances the occasional riptide, me ...but the amazing saves had stunted their growth as players and they were not able to adapt.

Really, I know this may not make sense to some people, but the best experiences in the game are in playing other armies (you don't have to buy them, just read the book, borrow an army or proxy one, get the feel).

Just my hard earned 2 cents....yours may vary.

DavePak
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davethepak wrote:
I would paint them better, a new scheme maybe, my old one has just not come to where I want it yet.

Other than that, they are fine, its players' expectations that should change.

You think the termies have problems with all the shots out there...try the armies with the guys who don't have 2+ saves.

Honestly, there is amazing value in playing multiple types of amries (i.e. not just all flavors of marines...of which, I play three by the way) but others as well (guard, xenos, etc.).

When I play my termies, they hug cover, just like my other armies do...where as my friends who were not used to it, are getting slaughtered by grave guns and lances the occasional riptide, me ...but the amazing saves had stunted their growth as players and they were not able to adapt.

Really, I know this may not make sense to some people, but the best experiences in the game are in playing other armies (you don't have to buy them, just read the book, borrow an army or proxy one, get the feel).

Just my hard earned 2 cents....yours may vary.

What cover are you using? Considering the average cover save outside of defense lines is 5+, terminators generally gain very little from cover.

When you consider that your terminators cost in between 3-8 times more than than models without 2+ saves yet are only 2-4 times more durable, you begin to see the problem.
The fact the other units gain advantages from using cover, but terminators don't, makes the issue worse.
   
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Termis seem pretty good, compared to Meganobz for instance, in my experience (which admittedly is little)

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 Big Blind Bill wrote:
davethepak wrote:
I would paint them better, a new scheme maybe, my old one has just not come to where I want it yet.

Other than that, they are fine, its players' expectations that should change.

You think the termies have problems with all the shots out there...try the armies with the guys who don't have 2+ saves.

Honestly, there is amazing value in playing multiple types of amries (i.e. not just all flavors of marines...of which, I play three by the way) but others as well (guard, xenos, etc.).

When I play my termies, they hug cover, just like my other armies do...where as my friends who were not used to it, are getting slaughtered by grave guns and lances the occasional riptide, me ...but the amazing saves had stunted their growth as players and they were not able to adapt.

Really, I know this may not make sense to some people, but the best experiences in the game are in playing other armies (you don't have to buy them, just read the book, borrow an army or proxy one, get the feel).

Just my hard earned 2 cents....yours may vary.

What cover are you using? Considering the average cover save outside of defense lines is 5+, terminators generally gain very little from cover.

When you consider that your terminators cost in between 3-8 times more than than models without 2+ saves yet are only 2-4 times more durable, you begin to see the problem.
The fact the other units gain advantages from using cover, but terminators don't, makes the issue worse.


Most cover is actually still 4+, its just woods and most area terrain that is 5+
(ruins, hills, wrecks, and yes, defense lines are all still 4+).

Those models my terminators cost more than (about 4x as much) usually have worse leadership, no ATSKNF, worse weapon skill, worse toughness, etc.).

Don't get me wrong....if this thread was "hey, my termies die more than they used to..." I would agree.

But so do my marines, my guard, my necrons, my genestealers, my warriors, my drednaughts, my firewarriors, my bikers, my psyfledreds, etc.
They all die easier, they all have problems getting into CC compared to last edition.

So, if someone wants to say ...."man, this edition stuff dies so fast, my super tough stuff does not feel as tough anymore" I totally agree.
But do they need to be fixed? Naaa.... well, wait...I would like if my DA ones could have stormravens....that would be nice.
Other than that....they are fine.

But again, some people agree, some don't.

DavePak
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2 squads of 5 tac marines with a missile launcher are 170 points.
5 terminators with a CML are 225 points.
This is a 55 points difference.

At ranges over 12, the terminators put out 2 more bolter shots per turn.
At ranges under 12 the tac squads 6 more bolter shots.

When the marines are in area terrain both are statistically as durable against small arms fire, and the marines are twice as durable as the terminators against ap 2 weaponry. The terminators only advantage is when ap 3 weapons are used.

The terminators are better in CC, although they are not scoring. (They of course still suffer from Unwieldy weapons and no sweeping advances).

So we have terminators who are nearly 3 times the cost of a marine, who deal less ranged damage per point, are less durable per point, and are not scoring.
Their only advantage is in melee, but they will probably need a landraider to get there.

Elite choices should be better than troops choices imo, that is the definition of elite after all. As it stands, tac marines offer far better value per point than a terminator, with only the assault variants having any kind of use in today's meta.

This warrants a change imo, to bring them back into a competitive choice. You won't see many terminators being fielded in competitions (with the exception of assault terminators with a LR), and there is a reason for this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/02 05:30:25


 
   
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More accurately he speaks half truths and stacks the deck:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
2 squads of 5 tac marines with a missile launcher are 170 points.
5 terminators with a CML are 225 points.
This is a 55 points difference.


This is true


At ranges over 12, the terminators put out 2 more bolter shots per turn.
At ranges under 12 the tac squads 6 more bolter shots.


This is only part of the story, they both have 2 missile shots, the marines can split fire but the terminators can fire on the move and not snap fire giving them superior mobility.


When the marines are in area terrain both are statistically as durable against small arms fire, and the marines are twice as durable as the terminators against ap 2 weaponry. The terminators only advantage is when ap 3 weapons are used.


Funny how when someone wants to prove something the marines have cover but when they want to point out xenos firepower is OP everything ignores cover. Against ignores cover or in the open the terminators are more durable due to their invuln and less vulnerable to blasts.


The terminators are better in CC, although they are not scoring. (They of course still suffer from Unwieldy weapons and no sweeping advances).


"Better", S4 AP- I4 versus S8 AP2 I1, that is significantly better, how many points is a power fist on a marine sergeant again?


This warrants a change imo, to bring them back into a competitive choice. You won't see many terminators being fielded in competitions (with the exception of assault terminators with a LR), and there is a reason for this.


Not every unit performs well in competitive play, the competitive meta is small elite armies so you need to load up on the ap2 and represents only one aspect of 40k. Buffing units around one element of the meta is the last thing anyone should be doing.

Also Martel, claiming Terminators should be OP because *2* factions get access to rerollable 2+'s with one having to jump through unreliable psychic hoops to get it and the other having it's own set of weaknesses is just bad balancing.

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 Dunklezahn wrote:
This is only part of the story, they both have 2 missile shots, the marines can split fire but the terminators can fire on the move and not snap fire giving them superior mobility.


Sure, and give the tac squad plasma guns and they are just as mobile. Give them rhinos or a drop pod and they are more mobile than the terminators. You should set up a squad for their intended role. Now regarding mobility, drop pods are more reliable than terminators , they can deep strike and then allow movement besides running, and whilst bad in kill points games they provide some cover. Rhinos provide cheap mobility, tank shock and cover. Terminators are not mobile, they pay a 250+ landraider tax for this privilege


Funny how when someone wants to prove something the marines have cover but when they want to point out xenos firepower is OP everything ignores cover. Against ignores cover or in the open the terminators are more durable due to their invuln and less vulnerable to blasts.


It's also funny when people make comments without considering the statistics. Let's consider 3 plasma shots that ignore cover hit and wound a unit of marines, they lose 3 models, which is 42 points. The same thing happens to a terminator squad, they have an invulnerable save of 5++, and therefore lose 2 models on average. This costs 80 points. Tell me I'm wrong here but it still seems that normal tac marines come out ahead. Even against assault terminators with storm shields the tac marines still do better. with 42 - 45.

"Better", S4 AP- I4 versus S8 AP2 I1, that is significantly better, how many points is a power fist on a marine sergeant again?

I have said terminators are better in assault. Now tell me how will your terminators get to assault. If you are using terminators to assault in a serious game then you need a landraider, which will cost more than the squad itself and will quite possibly be more than 1/4 of your army.
If you are on the defensive then the enemy will be assaulting your terminators with a unit which is optimal against them. Daemonettes and hormaguants don't care much for terminators.
Assault is an advantage of terminators, but this is in an edition where assault is not as decisive as it used to be.


Not every unit performs well in competitive play, the competitive meta is small elite armies so you need to load up on the ap2 and represents only one aspect of 40k. Buffing units around one element of the meta is the last thing anyone should be doing.

Competition by its nature selects the strong from the weak. The number of selections of a unit type at a competition is a good indication of how powerful it is. Saying terminators are not good at competitions is the same as saying terminators are not a strong pick. This is plain and simple.

   
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Funny how when someone wants to prove something the marines have cover but when they want to point out xenos firepower is OP everything ignores cover. Against ignores cover or in the open the terminators are more durable due to their invuln and less vulnerable to blasts.


Actually one of the main issues is that Terminators aren't that much better then standard tac marines at surviving mass of fire weaponry.
   
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 Dunklezahn wrote:

Funny how when someone wants to prove something the marines have cover but when they want to point out xenos firepower is OP everything ignores cover. Against ignores cover or in the open the terminators are more durable due to their invuln and less vulnerable to blasts.


10 Marines have 10 wounds. 5 Terminators have 5 wounds. Even with the 5++ the Terminators have 6.667... effective wounds against AP2.

davethepak wrote:

You think the termies have problems with all the shots out there...try the armies with the guys who don't have 2+ saves.


Orks don't pay 40PPM on 1W models to see them shot down because some Eldar player managed to roll a 6 to-wound. Neither do IG, Dark Eldar or Tyranids. Elite armies are suffering this edition because everyone and their mother either has "Rending" (Eldar, Daemons, Wraiths), AP2 (Tau, IG, anything with a Warscythe), or flat-out ignore armour saves completely (Greater Daemons, FMCs in general). Further, most SM melee units (both Chaos and Loyalist ones) are damn awful at doing their job due to a lack of a combination of speed, damage, and durability, meaning there's no feasible way to lock down stuff like Riptides, Jetbikes, Seer Councils or the like before they do their thing. Don't get me started on Heldrakes...

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 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Sure, and give the tac squad plasma guns and they are just as mobile....


Except now they are 70pts more expensive as if they have plasma *guns* they are 2x5 and suddenly the price range is closer, same for drop pods.

Let's consider 3 plasma shots that ignore cover hit...


Anyone can stack the deck by choosing the right gun lets consider Dark Reapers. 5 guys, 10 shots, 4.44 wounds. That's 29pts of dead terminator and 61.6 points of dead tactical...


I have said terminators are better in assault. Now tell me how will your terminators get to assault. If you are using terminators to assault in a serious game...

See the endless threads on the "death" of assault, it may be true in your meta but don't make the classic mistake of assuming it is a blanket case.

Not every unit performs well in competitive play, the competitive meta is small elite armies so you need to load up on the ap2 and represents only one aspect of 40k. Buffing units around one element of the meta is the last thing anyone should be doing.
Competition by its nature selects the strong from the weak. The number of selections of a unit type at a competition is a good indication of how powerful it is. Saying terminators are not good at competitions is the same as saying terminators are not a strong pick. This is plain and simple.


And you did it anyway, the tournament scene is not the only meta, it is a small and badly skewed part of it that has a number of artificial restrictions and compromises that are not part of the core rules. Terminators are bad in *your* meta in GW's meta they are 40pts and based on my meta I'd say it's about right with the exception of the double specials that they lack.
Something doesn't get selected at a tourney because it's strong, it gets chosen because it's strong against the opponents you are likely to encounter. A bright lance is strong in a world of triple Land Raiders but a waste of points in a world of green foot tides...

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Actually one of the main issues is that Terminators aren't that much better then standard tac marines at surviving mass of fire weaponry.


They are twice as good while costing 3 times the price, however their melee power and ability to fire on the move is superior to those points spent on tacticals. I have a regular opponent who is starting to realize this, his issue was that his tactical terminators never made their points back from shooting. When he started being more bold and closing to fist ranges *while firing* he found their impact dramatically increased because without a dedicated melee unit those terminators will beat your basic troopers like red headed step children...

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