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 Melissia wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Outdated rules are outdated.

They're also quite capable of it in the RPGs as well, though I am loathe to quote from Blood of Martyrs. And there's plenty of other examples of Sisters being capable of outshining Space Marines in bursts of glory, as well. It's no surprise really, considering that "Marines and Sisters are equals on the field of combat" is Games Workshop's opinion, stated repeatedly and consistently, no matter how much you object to it.

Insert line about a pathological need to prove your plastic soldiers are better than the other person's plastic soldiers here.

Pot, meet kettle.

I can open Ye Big Bag o' Quotes and shower you in examples of GW stating that Marines are superior.

5th ed SM codex wrote:The Space Marines are the foremost defenders of the Imperium.

5th ed rulebook wrote:The Adeptus Astartes are the most powerful of all human warriors.

I have TONS of more quotes like this, these are just ones I picked out in a pinch. How many do you want me to give you?

My point is not that I am trying to convince you 'Marines > Sisters'. That would be pointless. We have different views of the setting, both supported by the fluff at least to some degree. Neither of us are necessarily right or wrong.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Pot, meet kettle.

All I've done, aside from assert that sisters are equal to marines (which is GW's official position), is provide counter-points to marinespankery.

As for your so-called quotes, please, every codex says something like that, those quotes are as worthless as they are pointless. They don't explicitly mention or compare Sisters to Space Marines regardless*.




*(also, Space MArines aren't human)

 Melissia wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Pot, meet kettle.

All I've done, aside from assert that sisters are equal to marines (which is GW's official position), is provide counter-points to marinespankery.

As for your so-called quotes, please, every codex says something like that, those quotes are as worthless as they are pointless.

Rulebook, not codex.

Besides, you used arguments from the SoB codex as well.

Again, pot, meet kettle. And GWs official position? Really? When they have outright stated there is no true canon?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Again, pot, meet kettle.

You have nooooo idea what this means, apparently.

And you're quoting Lynata on me. I don't have the same opinions as Lynata.

 da001 wrote:

At the risk of being stoned to death by fanboys, I am contesting this.

Fanboys? Try reasonably people.

Sisters and Primarchs do not belong to the same age (30k vs 40k), but Sisters are humans.

And humans can defeat Primarchs. The setting is open, there is no such thing as a instant win for anyone.

When you can rip dozens of Marines to pieces unarmed, it may as well be.

Kor Phaeron was an old priest that never made it into an Astartes. He was no psyker. He was only an old man who believed in the gods. Yet he was really close to defeat Guilliman.

So have you actually read the fight? Or anything about Kor Phaeron?

Kor Phaeron was still genetically enhanced beyond any Sister of Battle.

And he wasn't a psyker? He was explicitly stated to be the most powerful adept/psyker in the Word Bearers short of post-Isvtaan V Lorgar. Even if that was only the result of sorcery, he still is probably the single most powerful combatant in 30k that isn't a Primarch.

And Luther defeated the Lion.

Because Chaos amplified him up to a Primarch's level.

And Temba wounded Horus.

Read above.

And Malcador was stupidly powerful.

More-so than even the Living Saints. He was the third mightiest psyker in the Imperium at the time.

And Macharius went beyond anything a Primarch achieved.

A. I don't think this is true.

B. Prowess as a commander =/= prowess as a combatant.

 Melissia wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Again, pot, meet kettle.

You have nooooo idea what this means, apparently.

And you're quoting Lynata on me. I don't have the same opinions as Lynata.

Pot and kettle, that is, hypocrisy.

Saying that C:SM quotes are worthless and pointless moments after using an example from the Sisters' own 3rd ed equivalent is a shining example of hypocrisy. Game mechanics, as well, which should not be mixed up with the background.

What is it exactly that makes your sources so magically unbiased and viable in a discussion where mine, such as codices and rulebooks, are not?

And no, that was not a Lynata quote. Lynata merely (Though it was still kind of <him/her/both/neither/it/whatever Lynata prefers> to do so.) gathered quotes of others.

This setting is not consistent. We can make of it what we wish.

 Melissia wrote:
All I've done, aside from assert that sisters are equal to marines (which is GW's official position), is provide counter-points to marinespankery.

As for your so-called quotes, please, every codex says something like that, those quotes are as worthless as they are pointless. They don't explicitly mention or compare Sisters to Space Marines regardless*.




*(also, Space MArines aren't human)

Yet in GW's own works, the Space Marines are stated to be the mightiest combatants on humanity's side (This would include the Sisters).

You have one quote comparing Sisters to Marines. The Marine codices don't compare them to Sisters for a reason. The reason being that the Sisters of Battle are just plain not nearly as relevant to the game or the setting.

Space Marines are human, GW says so. Don't like it? Don't care.

And yet the Sisters are used to dispose of SM Chapters that the Imperium no longer has use for. So whether or not the SM are the "mightest combatants" the Imperium fields doesn't make a damn bit of difference, because apparently Melta weapons run on honeybadgers.

And honeybadger? Honeybadger does not give a f******ck about your LRBT or Power Armor or Chapter history.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Sororitas are generally Marines +1, as far as the fluff is concerned.

In single combat, a Sister's superior faith, training and equipment would give her the win, though a Marine could feasibly win via out-strategizing her, given he has some prep.

As far as the fluff is concerned, the "faith" never bloody does anything!

Every time I read a BL book I'm always stunned at how unfair it all seems, the chaos guys have tangible powers, the Imperials have..well.. sort of maybe the emperor sort of helped or maybe he didn't kind of thing. The Astartes are made out to be hardcore in the fluff though, like one guy takes out 20 Dark Eldar or 50 Orks or what have you.

As such, a Space Marine would pull her arms and legs with consummate ease.

 Psienesis wrote:
And yet the Sisters are used to dispose of SM Chapters that the Imperium no longer has use for. So whether or not the SM are the "mightest combatants" the Imperium fields doesn't make a damn bit of difference, because apparently Melta weapons run on honeybadgers.

And honeybadger? Honeybadger does not give a f******ck about your LRBT or Power Armor or Chapter history.

It does not actually say how many Sisters are required to do so. Guardsman Infantry Squad soldiers can defeat Greater Daemons, though that does not mean that they are necessarily equal, or evenly matched in equal numbers. Sisters are perhaps closer to Marines in prowess than Guardsmen are to Greater Daemons, and they must be in order to be a viable option for the task, but it does not say that individual Sisters and Marines are anywhere near equal in itself.

 Psienesis wrote:


If we're not permitting any gear, Gideon Ravenor is a burned lump of meat. He's nothing without his chair (which is not Wraithbone, incidentally, it is of Imperial manufacture).

I wasn't advocating arbitrarily gimping one, you were, lol.

Pretty sure it is wraithbone-plated, but it doesn't really matter. It is still depicted as being largely proof against las-bolts for example.

And without his chair, that burned lump of meat could still kill the Sister with a thought, though he would die as well due to being incapable of living outside of it.

His Psycannons require his telekinetic powers to function. If we're dismissing the use of psychic powers (because this is a hand-to-hand fight) then he can't even pull the triggers.

To be blunt, the only reason we are dismissing the use of psychic powers is because you can't argue against Ravenor effortlessly killing the Sister with them. Classic gimping, which I do not feel like indulging in anymore.

As we saw with his fight with the Tyranid, his chair isn't exactly a tank. It can stop small-arms, sure, but a bolter will probably tear it apart.

With what Tyranid?

And I could as easily say "Ravenor, however, cannot take an SOB in hand to hand if her mental fortitude and faith allows her to ignore his psychic abilities. If that happens, he's fethed, since he's just a lump of burned meat in a box"

You could say that, but you would have little fluff to support it, and it ignores, once more, his ability to just hit her in the head with a boulder.

The Chair also cannot crush people. The best he's ever done with it is pin someone against a wall, which you could do with a regular office chair or a shopping cart. It's not equipped with a dozer blade.

You are 100% wrong about this I am afraid.

Just ask Toros Revoke, whom Ravenor managed to slam into with his chair and crush him upon impacting the wall. That said, his chair is psychically controlled, which I forgot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
And yet the Sisters are used to dispose of SM Chapters that the Imperium no longer has use for. So whether or not the SM are the "mightest combatants" the Imperium fields doesn't make a damn bit of difference, because apparently Melta weapons run on honeybadgers.

And honeybadger? Honeybadger does not give a f******ck about your LRBT or Power Armor or Chapter history.

"Mightiest" =/= "Unbeatable".

There are more elements that go toward killing people dead than personal formidability.

 Troike wrote:

Hey now, no need to insult them. When one has only a casual or one-sided view of the fluff, it's easy to percieve Marines as somewhat better than they really are, it's a common thing. Not their fault. But some people can be persuaded to see the setting in a less Marine-centric way, if others just post the relevant fluff.

Yep, that sounded far more aggressive that it was supposed to. Apologies to whomever felt offended. At the end, the background of this game is so open to interpretation that it is what you want it to be.

 da001 wrote:
For instance, the people behind Behavior Interactive are making a game called Eternal Crusade (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/537854.page) and they have already stated that Sisters are not going to make it into the game since the only use they would have is "being killed by their own team because their pure blood is useful to defeat demons." (http://www.dualshockers.com/2013/06/14/interview-warhammer-40000-eternal-crusades-miguel-caron-shares-his-vision-for-a-next-gen-mmorpg/). By the way, they also said something about Genestealers being << Marines, so it seems we have a "SM are awesome" case here.

I have some good news for you, it seems. Miguel actually apologised for that statement on here after people quesitoned it. A few posts later and Lyanta emailed them all (or most) of the SoB studio fluff there is, at their request. So they obviously care about getting the Sisters right. A few months later, Creative Director (IIRC) David Ghozland tweeted that Sisters were on the list of factions to be added to the game. And in an interview, Miguel noted that Sisters were one of the top three most requested factions to be added.

Don't worry, I think that the Sisters will do okay in that particular venture. And a neat thing about Behaviour is that they're very open with the fans, so should there be any major concerns, they can be voiced.

That´s good news! That single sentence killed my interest in the game. It seems I need to re-read the very same topic I linked.

 da001 wrote:
If this keeps on, eventually we will lose another faction. Not the first time. At the end, Fanboys and Haters are not fun, they can, literally, destroy the game

Psh, the Sisters have stuck around this long. They'll be fine. GW just made them another codex, didn't they? Now why do that if they're considering dropping the Sisters? It sold well too, so even if it was some sort of "test", well, test passed.

Worry not, strangely pious heretic, it shall take more than the Internet to defeat the Orders Militant!

I hope so. Chaos (Marines & Daemons) is my main army, but I also play many others. I love all factions, actually.

I also played Lost and the Damned, Zoats and my first army was Flesh Eaters, all of them retconned. And most of my Chaos army (Undivided) is now illegal. I am sick of armies getting squatted, and I am sick of seeing people leaving the game bacause a faction is no longer (Squats was the biggest one), or it is so altered that they no longer like it. I admit I find the situation of the Sisters... concerning.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

Also, I am not sure if I like the tone in this thread currently. It is starting to feel like 'My army kicks the butt of your army.' Not pointing at any specific side of the argument.

This was bound to happen since the beginning. I think the first page already had some examples of it

 Lynata wrote:

And yeah, we really got lucky with how Miguel and his colleagues handle community input. This kind of communication is a rare thing indeed.

I really need to do some research on this matter.
And well done.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
And yet the Sisters are used to dispose of SM Chapters that the Imperium no longer has use for. So whether or not the SM are the "mightest combatants" the Imperium fields doesn't make a damn bit of difference, because apparently Melta weapons run on honeybadgers.

And honeybadger? Honeybadger does not give a f******ck about your LRBT or Power Armor or Chapter history.

It does not actually say how many Sisters are required to do so. Guardsman Infantry Squad soldiers can defeat Greater Daemons, though that does not mean that they are necessarily equal, or evenly matched in equal numbers. Sisters are perhaps closer to Marines in prowess than Guardsmen are to Greater Daemons, and they must be in order to be a viable option for the task, but it does not say that individual Sisters and Marines are anywhere near equal in itself.

Neither SM nor Sisters are intended to operate as solo operatives. Who gives a feth what one solo one can accomplish?

An Adeptus Custodes would mop the floor with a single Space Marine, but is not as valuable a soldier as the Custodes do not work well in teams.

To be blunt, the only reason we are dismissing the use of psychic powers is because you can't argue against Ravenor effortlessly killing the Sister with them. Classic gimping, which I do not feel like indulging in anymore.

Earlier in the thread, the fight was staged to be toe-to-toe. That's a melee fight.

With what Tyranid?

The ones that came out of the gate in the Wytchhouse.

You could say that, but you would have little fluff to support it, and it ignores, once more, his ability to just hit her in the head with a boulder.

Sisters, through pure faith, can ignore psychic effects against them, so that removes his telepathic attacks as well as his ability to bind her in telekinetic force (we're assuming that all "rolls" are being made here... he's not suffering Perils of the Warp and she's getting her AoF to activate, yadda yadda). Yes, he can throw a boulder at her. The Sister can dodge that, as now we're in what amounts to, again, a hand to hand fight.

There are more elements that go toward killing people dead than personal formidability.

That's my point. Other people in the thread seem to be assuming that "Mightiest" does mean "Unbeatable".

 Troike wrote:

Right, so they're apparently kept on even when the treatments start to fail, if we're assuming that all Inquisitors take them. Therefore, we can have elderly Inquisitors , but elderly SoB get transferred out.

Helsreach has an elderly inquisitor. / shrug

Neither are Sisters! Indoctrinated from birth, trained in combat from an early age and complete and utter zeal in their cause.

This is true, but they only need to be good at one thing; combat, whereas Inquisitors need to be good at most everything.

"In all or most respects", you say? So an Inquisitor who wasn't stellar in combat would still be allowed? Again, this is a key point: Inquisitors can vary in how they are, but Sisters are far more consistent.

You are putting words into my mouth. We don't know if a less combat-capable inquisitor would be allowed, though I have yet to see one.

Irrelevant. He's still an active Inquisitor, which proves that physically frail Inquisitors are allowed and that not all of them could beat an SoB in combat.

It actually occurs to me: Is Karamazov that frail?

I mean, look at his sword. He'd have to be quite strong to wield that thing in combat.

Yes, this a major advantage of Inquisitors, access to superior equipment. But take that away, and they're not necessarily too great in a fight.

Ah, but you could say the same of the Sisters, who would still be dangerous without their advanced equipment, but considerably less so (Though this is true of even Space Marines, though to a lesser extent).

I meant just taking away his chair, not any other weapon he might be able to carry.[/quote[

I am sure that power sword will make up for being unable to walk, lol.

Assuming, indeed, he can not.

But okay, let's take away all of their arms and armour, just a straight physical fight, no equipment-bestowed advantages. The Sister would win that one.

What is up with you people and thinking "Oh, don't like us gimping? Let's gimp the Sisters too but still give them the advantage".

I mean, more to the subject of this thread, by that token, naked Sister vs. naked Marine, who wins? But that wouldn't be fair, would it?

Okay, I conceed, I did miss the part where you mentioned that he's encased in wraithbone. But my point stands, even without her equipment a Sister is still quite effective in combat.

Well, Psienesis contests that apparently, but even so, it is pretty much proof against lasguns.

And of course she is.

Sisters need fixing, not removing.

They need bigger and more badass armour, for start. Sisters-esque Terminator armour. Without boobplate preferably.

They need plastic models, non-mail-order army, non-digital-only codex, a few fixes in fluff and rules here and there, and bamm, I would more than consider playing them.

I do not dislike them as a concept, I just dislike how they were implemented.

What fluff fixes do they need?

Why do they need Terminators?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Sisters need fixing, not removing.

They need bigger and more badass armour, for start. Sisters-esque Terminator armour. Without boobplate preferably.

They need plastic models, non-mail-order army, non-digital-only codex, a few fixes in fluff and rules here and there, and bamm, I would more than consider playing them.

I do not dislike them as a concept, I just dislike how they were implemented.

Yeah same, ive said it for years, GW hate money.

 Psienesis wrote:
What fluff fixes do they need?

Why do they need Terminators?

Because big armour is badass. And I think it would look really good. /shrug

Something like this, but with less boobplate.



Not all of the sisters of course, just as an elite unit.

So now Sister fanboys are saying that a battle sister would beat a primarch?

I doubt the Sisters need to be even closer to SM than they already are on the TT, they need to stay away from e'm.

Fraternis militia is where its at.

LightKing wrote:
So now Sister fanboys are saying that a battle sister would beat a primarch?

Please, do not call others fanboys. We are all fans of the same hobby here, no hostility.

No, the person in question said that such a thing was not impossible, not that it was the most likely scenario.

LightKing wrote:
So now Sister fanboys are saying that a battle sister would beat a primarch?

What? I entirely fail to see how you are reaching that conclusion.

I don't think that has even been mentioned in this thread as a possiblity. What are you talking about?


Sisters do need the Frateris Militia. Wave upon endless wave of "Imperial cultists" wielding ccw and lasguns, maybe 1 heavy weapon per 25 models, and an SC somewhere on the table, probably a Priest, with the "SITNW" rule.

 Bobthehero wrote:
I doubt the Sisters need to be even closer to SM than they already are on the TT, they need to stay away from e'm.

Fraternis militia is where its at.

A unit of T3 2+ models would be very interesting gamewise if I am to be honest. I do not think such a unit currently exists, only as single characters.

i think da001 said something that a sister can = a primarch....

lol no, sorry

A Primarch would crush a sister in single combat

the only time primarchs are ever defeated are by highly exceptional marines/psykers or chaos amped marines

Do you understand how a Sister's Acts of Faith mechanic works?

None of that matters when their head has been melted by a meltagun

That's the thing about science fiction. Once you get enough firepower, it doesn't matter how tough someone is. They're still dead in one shot.

 Melissia wrote:
None of that matters when their head has been melted by a meltagun

your the one that said canoness could beat a primarch?

LightKing wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
None of that matters when their head has been melted by a meltagun

your the one that said canoness could beat a primarch?

No. But I assert that anyone with enough firepower and the proper situation could do so, from a lowly conscript all the way up to another primarch.

A primarch can't live without his head, excepting those whom have been turned in to demon princes.

It doesn't matter how tough a Space Marine is when they can still be killed in a single shot like anyone else by a weapon with enough firepower.

 Melissia wrote:

LightKing wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
None of that matters when their head has been melted by a meltagun

your the one that said canoness could beat a primarch?

No. But I assert that anyone with enough firepower and the proper situation could do so, from a lowly conscript all the way up to another primarch.

A primarch can't live without his head, excepting those whom have been turned in to demon princes.

It doesn't matter how tough a Space Marine is when they can still be killed in a single shot like anyone else by a weapon with enough firepower.

Primarchs are able to single handily mow down Marines, left and right.......... a sister might be able to match 1 on 1...but come on

Melissia is technically correct...

...Though didn't Lorgar survive a Plasma Blastgun shot?

Not that that is the biggest gun, of course.