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 Psienesis wrote:

Fulgrim did cut up a tank, just like he beat up an avatar barefisted.
And just like Angron overpowered a warhound Titan trying to crush him with all of it's might, and like how Lorgar took Titan plasma to the face and lived.
Primarchs are tough.

Or so the legends say.

Those aren't the legends.
The Legends are primarchs busting mountains, and being literally unkillable.
Both exist in universe. Which are the legends? I wonder....

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Actually, I would say bad writing is creating an unbeatable mary sue with no discernible weaknesses. One of the reasons why I hate superman, really.

There is a difference between being unbeatable and being very powerful.

I am sorry that humans with power armour can't defeat a genetically and Warp engineered superman designed by the most brilliant scientific and psychic mind in human history. I am sorry that is bad writing to you.

 mattyrm wrote:
I'm always amazed at how heated these threads get, its like, almost as heated as the "which turtle is the best" arguments when I was in elementary school, but everyone has pubes now.

Which means they should know better.

Oh and its Donatello quite clearly. More range, clearly the most intellectual, and doesn't have a ganja problem like Michaelangelo.

Donatello was always the best on the old Gameboy game.

 Psienesis wrote:

Rogal Dorn died during a boarding action on the Sword of Sacrilege.

You have where he died.

Tell me how.

^^^^^
Oh boy. Over the head. Just a little. LOL!

But maybe when the SOB codex said "Equal to Space Marine," they meant it in a general battle force kind of way. Getting attacked by the SOB is just as bad as getting attacked by Marines. That's how I interpret it. There's a lot of talk about sisters fighting a marine in unarmed combat 1 on 1. Of course a Marine would waste a sister in that case, but that won't happen too often. A marine can get shot just like anyone else or overpowered by two or three sisters.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Excepting... they weren't.

Some of the Primarchs died to purely conventional weapons.

We don't even know the name of the Chaos-aligned midshipman who punched Dorn's ticket. We don't know the name of the pasty point-ear who slapped Khan in chains. Jonson was felled by the psychic attack of a regular dude.

Why do you spread lies throughout the forums?

We have no idea what killed Dorn. None at all. To say otherwise is to lie.

The Khan? We also have no notion of where he is.

Jonson? "Regular dude"?

Luther was amplified by the Chaos Gods themselves to be on Lion El'Jonson's level.

Stop lying.

QFT.

Also for Dorn, we don't even know if he's KIA. He's still MIA with the only thing the Imperial Fists have is his fist.

 da001 wrote:

I really like Magnus the Red.... BUT
1) He was defeated twice by a single marine (awful fluff, I know)

With some holy plot device weapon.

2) He was beaten by a Dreadnought (awful fluff, probably, haven´t read the book yet; fear the moment)

He nearly killed Bjorn the Fell-Handed. He wasn't beaten by Bjorn, though the fight lasted longer than it should have. Magnus' appearance in the book was pretty awful.

3) He was so emo about how he felt about his daddy that he allows the Wolves to destroy half Prospero and decimate his sons before doing something. I always thought the main weakness of the Primarchs was their own emotional problems. Most of them are described as teenagers from an emotional point of view.

K.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Curze was weaker than most primarchs

Based on what?

He overpowered Jonson and nearly throttled the life out of him. Same with Dorn.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 da001 wrote:

I really like Magnus the Red.... BUT
1) He was defeated twice by a single marine (awful fluff, I know)

With some holy plot device weapon.

2) He was beaten by a Dreadnought (awful fluff, probably, haven´t read the book yet; fear the moment)

He nearly killed Bjorn the Fell-Handed. He wasn't beaten by Bjorn, though the fight lasted longer than it should have. Magnus' appearance in the book was pretty awful.

3) He was so emo about how he felt about his daddy that he allows the Wolves to destroy half Prospero and decimate his sons before doing something. I always thought the main weakness of the Primarchs was their own emotional problems. Most of them are described as teenagers from an emotional point of view.

K.

i was gonna say... he beat bjorn up

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Actually, I would say bad writing is creating an unbeatable mary sue with no discernible weaknesses. One of the reasons why I hate superman, really.

There is a difference between being unbeatable and being very powerful.

I am sorry that humans with power armour can't defeat a genetically and Warp engineered superman designed by the most brilliant scientific and psychic mind in human history. I am sorry that is bad writing to you.

Again, it was a reference to this. Which was followed up by some analogy about Superman getting killed by a Rottweiler. Which is technically possible, provided the rottweiler had kryptonite.

LightKing wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Dorn died in a boarding action and Rowboat's head is falling off his shoulders from a sword-wound.

ok? thats what we call bad fluff/bad writing or PIS (plot-indused stupidity)

Thanos The Mad Titan was arrested by beat cops and put into handcuffs...

so does that mean a cop could beat Thanos?

Yes. The Primarchs are very powerful. Yes, they are a real bitch to kill. That does not mean that sufficient amounts of firepower can't kill one. If it couldn't, then there would be no need to have the space marines to start the great crusade, now would there?

 mattyrm wrote:

An ordinary high velocity rifle round would easily pass right through the skull of an Ork, or a Primarch, anyone who has ever been on a bullet penetration range could tell you that, and a bullet through the brain and out the back of the skull would give absolutely anything a headache.

An anti-material rifle, based on the fluff, would have its round flatten on impact upon a Primarch's skull.

Luther was amped up by Chaos....

Lion actually wounded him and could of done the finishing blow and refused

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Again, it was a reference to this. Which was followed up by some analogy about Superman getting killed by a Rottweiler. Which is technically possible, provided the rottweiler had kryptonite.

Yes. The Primarchs are very powerful. Yes, they are a real bitch to kill. That does not mean that sufficient amounts of firepower can't kill one. If it couldn't, then there would be no need to have the space marines to start the great crusade, now would there?

Sure, but, once more, it requires a lot of firepower to do so. Generally more than what humans lug around in the Imperium.

Unless ADB feels the need to have Primarchs dying to bolter rounds.

What an idiot.

BT is ~6K. SW is ~2K. Not that hard to count them. 40K wiki states the 2nd largest in existence for the Wolves, but provides absolutely nothing backing that up (mainly because the 40K Wikia permits fan-fluff to be treated as canon).

GW, fortunately, sells Ragnar Blackmane's entire Great Company for $1000. It's got 131 Space Wolves in it, including Dreadnoughts, Rune Priests, Iron Priests, and Bikers, as well as packs of Fenrisian Wolves.

Ragnar's Great Company is said to be the 2nd largest of the Great Companies. So, let's give the Space Wolves the benefit of the doubt, and say that 10 of the remaining 11 Great Companies has 130 Space Wolves in it, which puts them just 1 Marine under Ragnar. Let's also assume that Logan Grimnar's Great Company. as the Great Wolf, has 5 times the Marines that Ragnar does.

1300 (Great Companies) + 131 (Ragnar's GC) + 655 (Logan's GC)= 2086 Space Wolves

The Chapter isn't that damn big, sorry.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:

An ordinary high velocity rifle round would easily pass right through the skull of an Ork, or a Primarch, anyone who has ever been on a bullet penetration range could tell you that, and a bullet through the brain and out the back of the skull would give absolutely anything a headache.

An anti-material rifle, based on the fluff, would have its round flatten on impact upon a Primarch's skull.

It'd probably bounce off the skull of an Astartes as well if it's similar to that of modern rounds. And an Ork for that matter.
(Although it probably wouldn't be lethal for the Ork even if it did penetrate.)

I uh, don't know about all that Wyzilla.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:

An ordinary high velocity rifle round would easily pass right through the skull of an Ork, or a Primarch, anyone who has ever been on a bullet penetration range could tell you that, and a bullet through the brain and out the back of the skull would give absolutely anything a headache.

An anti-material rifle, based on the fluff, would have its round flatten on impact upon a Primarch's skull.

It'd probably bounce off the skull of an Astartes as well if it's similar to that of modern rounds. And an Ork for that matter.
(Although it probably wouldn't be lethal for the Ork even if it did penetrate.)

look im not saying that primarchs are unkillable..or unbeatable....but the fact is, is that they generally were more powerful then marines, sisters and any other human.....

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:

An ordinary high velocity rifle round would easily pass right through the skull of an Ork, or a Primarch, anyone who has ever been on a bullet penetration range could tell you that, and a bullet through the brain and out the back of the skull would give absolutely anything a headache.

An anti-material rifle, based on the fluff, would have its round flatten on impact upon a Primarch's skull.

Apparently not, as Curze was killed by M'Shen, who was not even Vindicare.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:

An ordinary high velocity rifle round would easily pass right through the skull of an Ork, or a Primarch, anyone who has ever been on a bullet penetration range could tell you that, and a bullet through the brain and out the back of the skull would give absolutely anything a headache.

An anti-material rifle, based on the fluff, would have its round flatten on impact upon a Primarch's skull.

Apparently not, as Curze was killed by M'Shen, who was not even Vindicare.

M'Shen killed Curze with a c'tan sword

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I uh, don't know about all that Wyzilla.

Modern .50? Probably, given the insane range of Space Marine feats. Mid range it might take a chunk out of the face, but high end? They probably wouldn't even land the hit.
(And then there's the question if he's got his helmet on or not, which would cleanly deflect a .50 with a paint scratch.)

So then any Necron Warrior could kill a Primarch, as a C'Tan Phase Sword is made of Necrodermis.

 Psienesis wrote:
So then any Necron Warrior could kill a Primarch, as a C'Tan Phase Sword is made of Necrodermis.

Provided they could run at mach speeds, and could land enough hits to render 30% of Curze's torso scar tissue yes.

clively wrote:

We have a hard time establishing "historical truth" from events that happened only 100 years ago. How is a technologically stunted, highly religious society which has institutions dedicated to redacting and suppressing the past supposed to be written? Well, the only way to handle that is by establishing that there may be absolutely No truth in the stories you read or they might be 100% correct. Which is pretty much how human history currently stands. Heck you can have 10 well educated people witness the same event and have them tell 10 very different versions of what happened. This is well known and highly documented.

Exactly.

We know nothing of what happened just 3000 years ago. And we are living in a society that values investigation and the study of History. Imagine if it is 10000 years instead of 3000, in a society that burns anyone with a critical mind, hates culture with a passion and is based solely on superstition and propaganda. That´s the setting.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 da001 wrote:
Ouch.
Kor Phaeron was no psyker. A psyker is a mutant (not entirely human) who is born with power. When Lorgar came to Colchis, Kor Phaeron was an old man whose only powers were reading books and having faith.

So tell me: What do you call the lightning he tossed at Guilliman?

Sorcery.
He wasn´t born a psyker. He did it the hard way... through study and will-power. He (perhaps) manipulated a Primarch with his words and nearly defeated another with the power the gods gave him because his faith.... during the Heresy he caused.

Seriously, some humans kick ass.

And Luther is a similar case.

And yes, they got help. But so did the marines with the augmentations and psico-indoctrinations. And the Primarchs were BORN that powerful. Which is... far less impressive that what Kor Phaeron and Luther achieved being just "puny humans".

Luther was given power by the Chaos Gods. It was not earned, it was given to him. And that power outstrips any Sister of Battle that has ever lived, based on what we have seen.

Arguable. Both of them. Sources about Luther are contradictory at best. And some Sisters can turn into Living Saints. Perhaps a particularly powerful Living Saint with a relic (named) armour and one of those incredible weapons the setting has may have a chance against a Primarch in a proper context.

Humans can kick ass in the setting. In many ways, Sisters, Commissars and perhaps Assassins and Psykers (if they can be considered still humans) are examples of this.

With the exception of powerful psykers, none of them have been shown to be capable of taking out Primarchs with anything resembling reliability.

Nobody is discussing that. I just pointed out that it is possible, and provided some situations where Primarchs were defeated or nearly defeated by clearly inferior enemy-types.

I am fond of humans going beyond marines and primarchs in the setting. Hey, we are humans, are we not?

LightKing wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 da001 wrote:
You know what? Here I go:

LightKing wrote:

Magnus would still beat a sister 1 on 1 in combat because, well he's a primarch and vastly stronger then her

No way! Seriously?? LOL
A mere primarch defeating a Sister of Battle in close combat!?! Preposterous! I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch??

No way a sissy like Magnus could take on a Sister of Battle 1 on 1. At least not in close combat.
No. Way.

You think THAT'S bad? Can you imagine what would happen if Magnus fought a grot? Poor guy would just get curb stomped.

lol are you guys serious? Magnus would destroy a sister

Oh come on. Of course I am super serious. Sisters are trained since birth, have Power Armour and Bolters, and they specialize in killing psykers.

And what is Magnus? A psyker[b]. No. Chance. He will never make it into close combat. And even if he manages to get there... then what? Try to get through her Power Armour? Hilarious.

Against a grot it would be a similar situation. While Magnus has psy-powers and stuff like that, the sneaky abilities of the grot will allow it to get into close combat... and then it is game over for Magnus totally. And even if he manages to detect the grot, its sheer will-power will protect him against everything a primarch can use.

LightKing wrote:

Guilliaman tanked a shot from a starship and surived floating in space without a helmet

And Sister Macarena killed every single member of the Maximus Pious Chapter of the Space Marines (1000 Astartes in full gear) armed only with a wooden spear, and then used a Warhound Titan to seriously wound a grot. Sure the grot eventually dismembered her, but she wounded it.

Deathmark Assassin doesn't need to run, just step into one hyperdimension and step out where the target Primarch is going to be. A literal "head them off at the pass" move.... and maybe even "off their heads as they pass".

i would love to see a sister try to catch sanguinius running full speed...lol

 Psienesis wrote:
So then any Necron Warrior could kill a Primarch, as a C'Tan Phase Sword is made of Necrodermis.

Pretty much. Although you'd have to land the hit considering most of them would be able to rip apart a Necron with their bare hands and are stupidly fast and have powerful weapons of their own. Then there's the Primarch able to rip them apart with his mind.
(And the one who wrestled one to death. In lava.)

Although-


No, not because it's made of Necrodermis. Phase weaponry kills because it doesn't care how good your armor is. It phases out of reality and pops back in your stomach.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 da001 wrote:

I really like Magnus the Red.... BUT
1) He was defeated twice by a single marine (awful fluff, I know)

With some holy plot device weapon.

2) He was beaten by a Dreadnought (awful fluff, probably, haven´t read the book yet; fear the moment)

He nearly killed Bjorn the Fell-Handed. He wasn't beaten by Bjorn, though the fight lasted longer than it should have. Magnus' appearance in the book was pretty awful.

3) He was so emo about how he felt about his daddy that he allows the Wolves to destroy half Prospero and decimate his sons before doing something. I always thought the main weakness of the Primarchs was their own emotional problems. Most of them are described as teenagers from an emotional point of view.

K.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Curze was weaker than most primarchs

Based on what?

He overpowered Jonson and nearly throttled the life out of him. Same with Dorn.

I meant he wasn't the strongest or toughest. He was the 2nd fastest (Sanguinius was faster, right?), the most unpredictable, one of the smartest, and arguably the best weapon handler.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I uh, don't know about all that Wyzilla.

Modern .50? Probably, given the insane range of Space Marine feats. Mid range it might take a chunk out of the face, but high end? They probably wouldn't even land the hit.
(And then there's the question if he's got his helmet on or not, which would cleanly deflect a .50 with a paint scratch.)

Power Armor only stops 85% of laspistol and autogun rounds. An anti-material rifle is going to blow right through it.

LightKing wrote:
i would love to see a sister try to catch sanguinius running full speed...lol

She'd blink and be in a hundred pieces. Literally.
The same would happen to an astartes though.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I uh, don't know about all that Wyzilla.

Modern .50? Probably, given the insane range of Space Marine feats. Mid range it might take a chunk out of the face, but high end? They probably wouldn't even land the hit.
(And then there's the question if he's got his helmet on or not, which would cleanly deflect a .50 with a paint scratch.)

Power Armor only stops 85% of laspistol and autogun rounds. An anti-material rifle is going to blow right through it.

I'm talking about a modern one. It'd harmlessly ping off the armor. And lasguns can't kill Astartes without concentrated fire on flesh anyway. Otherwise their armor simply gets mildly scorched by lasguns or their sensors are stunned.
(And Orks just get burnt skin.)

 da001 wrote:

clively wrote:

We have a hard time establishing "historical truth" from events that happened only 100 years ago. How is a technologically stunted, highly religious society which has institutions dedicated to redacting and suppressing the past supposed to be written? Well, the only way to handle that is by establishing that there may be absolutely No truth in the stories you read or they might be 100% correct. Which is pretty much how human history currently stands. Heck you can have 10 well educated people witness the same event and have them tell 10 very different versions of what happened. This is well known and highly documented.

Exactly.

We know nothing of what happened just 3000 years ago. And we are living in a society that values investigation and the study of History. Imagine if it is 10000 years instead of 3000, in a society that burns anyone with a critical mind, hates culture with a passion and is based solely on superstition and propaganda. That´s the setting.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 da001 wrote:
Ouch.
Kor Phaeron was no psyker. A psyker is a mutant (not entirely human) who is born with power. When Lorgar came to Colchis, Kor Phaeron was an old man whose only powers were reading books and having faith.

So tell me: What do you call the lightning he tossed at Guilliman?

Sorcery.
He wasn´t born a psyker. He did it the hard way... through study and will-power. He (perhaps) manipulated a Primarch with his words and nearly defeated another with the power the gods gave him because his faith.... during the Heresy he caused.

Seriously, some humans kick ass.

And Luther is a similar case.

And yes, they got help. But so did the marines with the augmentations and psico-indoctrinations. And the Primarchs were BORN that powerful. Which is... far less impressive that what Kor Phaeron and Luther achieved being just "puny humans".

Luther was given power by the Chaos Gods. It was not earned, it was given to him. And that power outstrips any Sister of Battle that has ever lived, based on what we have seen.

Arguable. Both of them. Sources about Luther are contradictory at best. And some Sisters can turn into Living Saints. Perhaps a particularly powerful Living Saint with a relic (named) armour and one of those incredible weapons the setting has may have a chance against a Primarch in a proper context.

Humans can kick ass in the setting. In many ways, Sisters, Commissars and perhaps Assassins and Psykers (if they can be considered still humans) are examples of this.

With the exception of powerful psykers, none of them have been shown to be capable of taking out Primarchs with anything resembling reliability.

Nobody is discussing that. I just pointed out that it is possible, and provided some situations where Primarchs were defeated or nearly defeated by clearly inferior enemy-types.

I am fond of humans going beyond marines and primarchs in the setting. Hey, we are humans, are we not?

LightKing wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 da001 wrote:
You know what? Here I go:

LightKing wrote:

Magnus would still beat a sister 1 on 1 in combat because, well he's a primarch and vastly stronger then her

No way! Seriously?? LOL
A mere primarch defeating a Sister of Battle in close combat!?! Preposterous! I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch??

No way a sissy like Magnus could take on a Sister of Battle 1 on 1. At least not in close combat.
No. Way.

You think THAT'S bad? Can you imagine what would happen if Magnus fought a grot? Poor guy would just get curb stomped.

lol are you guys serious? Magnus would destroy a sister

Oh come on. Of course I am super serious. Sisters are trained since birth, have Power Armour and Bolters, and they specialize in killing psykers.

And what is Magnus? A psyker[b]. No. Chance. He will never make it into close combat. And even if he manages to get there... then what? Try to get through her Power Armour? Hilarious.

Against a grot it would be a similar situation. While Magnus has psy-powers and stuff like that, the sneaky abilities of the grot will allow it to get into close combat... and then it is game over for Magnus totally. And even if he manages to detect the grot, its sheer will-power will protect him against everything a primarch can use.

LightKing wrote:

Guilliaman tanked a shot from a starship and surived floating in space without a helmet

And Sister Macarena killed every single member of the Maximus Pious Chapter of the Space Marines (1000 Astartes in full gear) armed only with a wooden spear, and then used a Warhound Titan to seriously wound a grot. Sure the grot eventually dismembered her, but she wounded it.

No, Magnus is still a primarch and has superior physical advantages then a sister, he would crush her