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Escalation is over powered? Are gargantuan creatures that much of a threat?

How absurd is it? Is that a reflex reaction to omg forgeworld which has been a prevalent thing in 40k since the creation of forgeworld itself or is it grounded in logic? SH/GC and those crazy fortifications are now just as legal as Allies. Allies wasn't the 'new normal' either, and allows for the most ridiculous combos in 40k yet people came to terms with it. So why not come to terms with all the new things as well? (read an article on BoLs on this aswell) people are quick to say 'the sky is falling!' when something new arrives in 40k i've seen it happen for 8 years and the dust always settles and people learn to play it and accept it. Most of you have been in the hobby for a while so i'm sure you've taken notice of how this particular edition is making everything considered OP legal for everyone. Flyers, Allies, 40k Approved units in forgeworld, Bigger Kits in Codexes (riptides, wraithknights, trygons), Fortifications and now SH/GC. That entire list was NOT there in the previous edition or ones before it (except allies which had it's day in the sun ages ago and was then removed). So if everyone has all this OPness available to them already isn't that a level playing field?


subir gif

Mathematically forgeworld units have been known to be not as efficient as codex units for a long time with some exceptions. If you play Tyranids, compare the now FULLY LEGAL to use Lord of War - Barbed Hierodule (i own this guy). He's 565 pts (pretty expensive), has Gargantuan Creature rules which are nice but not all that different from monstrous creature rules and he comes with 2 Bio-Cannons. S10 AP3 Assault 6 guns. Which he can fire at different targets. Ballistic skill 3, so you can expect half of that to hit.

Is that OP? Sounds powerful right? Only until you actually look at the numbers. 3 hits from each gun at S10 can kill 2 rhinos a turn, or 1 land raider, or 5 space marines out of cover. Does it still sound so powerful? Maybe you'll argue 'It's not the damage output that's too powerful, it's how hard to kill a gargantuan creature is that makes it too powerful!' But again...if you look at the actual numbers the story is the complete opposite. That same Barbed Hierodule that will at best kill 5 space marines and costs 565 points has stats nearly IDENTICAL to an ELDAR WRAITHKNIGHT. If you can kill a 240 point Wraithknight then you can by all means also kill most gargantuan creatures. They are T8 with a 3+ armour save and 6 wounds. That's exactly like a wraithknight difference being that you cant instant kill a GC, and need to wound on a 6 when using sniper/poison rules. Other than that 3 units of devastators with missile launchers/lascannons which add up to 390 pts or 450 pts respectively can kill both a wraithknight and most gargantuan creatures in 1 turn of shooting. So after getting over the initial 'omg forgeworld' reaction and looking at the actual stats of these units it's clear to me that the one with the advantage is the player not bringing one of these. Hell for 565 pts an eldar player can bring 2 wraithknights and a wraithlord. That's more than 2x as hard to kill, and has far greater damage output. Also note the guns are AP3. Anything with a 2+ save could careless.

An ork squiggoth has 8 wounds but a 4+ save. So it's a trade off there, but with S7 AP4 is super common. 3 units of chaos havoks with autocannons dropping 24 shots on it should have it removed before tea-time with the chaos gods. And in return a squiggoth will fire back with 2 S7 AP4 massive blasts..Tau and Eldar might worry slightly (cover saves can still be taken) but marines will dance in the rain and careless.

This is the reason why i asked the above question, because I also had that initial omg forgeworld reaction but then i looked at the stats and was like 'wow 565 pts and THOSE are the stats? I expected Toughness 9 or 10, or more wounds or something' then it occurred to me that i had seen those stats before in normal 40k already...bam! There's the lovely Wraithknight and people still play against wraithknights without much complaint. They play against riptides too who are much cheaper and do much more damage. So it dawned on me...6th edition IS about having the free option to bring these super units and having fun. That seems to be the full on intent. That's my 2 cents

I agree completely, if someone want to use a baneblade then I'm useing my heirodule

The problem is D-Weapons, Titan, Transcendent C'tan and the Forge World uber-Daemons, not giant Squiggoths.

People are afraid of your Hierodule? I actually would like to face it, I like Tyranids, and particularly their GCs. Then again, I'm surprisingly reasonable compared to many people who voice their opinions on this forum.

It is legal to field a Hierodule in a game of Escalation. If your opponent agreed to play the game with you, they shouldn't complain about using a GC.

This topic came up on Bolter & Chainsword, and I said this there:

Let's be realistic. Even though allies can lead to silly, it's still the same sized and priced models that everyone else has.

Enter Escalation, and the cheapest units are over $100US. The only thing it is escalating is the cost to play. People never liked spending a few hundred dollars for the models to play the game, but you can't possibly think there wouldn't be resistance to the idea that you may now need to spend several hundred dollars more on a single model to compete.

When Escalation was called Apocalypse, it was a whole different game where silliness was the norm. If you showed up to play Apocalypse, you knew that it was going to be ridiculous, and everyone was going to have ridiculous units that smear everything not ridiculous off the table.

Escalation filters the ridiculous into the regular version of 40K.

I don't even play the game except occasionally with my buddies (only one of whom has a titan because he won a huge Forgeworld shopping spree at Games Day years back). But the reason why people are a bit perturbed that now they can't even play regular 40K without having to negotiate out titans is fairly obvious to me. It just makes the game that much more of a hassle if you just kinda liked it the way it was.

Understandable but as mentioned before there's only a few units that are 'overpowered' and those are the ones typically packing several D weapons. Which is less than 20% of what's on the Lord of War list.

The rest are reasonable costed (in terms of points) or flat out a terrible deal for whoever owns it compared to what's already in the game.

The argument that 'the models cost too much' goes out the window when there's already several models in standard 40k that cost about 100 bucks.

So the real decider is wether these units are really that scary compared to everything else that was already legal? And the answer is a firm NO when you look at what they cost in terms of points and what they actually bring to the table.

Not to mention that escalation added even more bonuses for a player not using a Lord of War in giving additional victory points AND really good warlord traits.

At the very least I'm trying to make the case that no one should be afraid of the gargantuan creatures even in normal pick up games. None of them are 'broken' nor anywhere near competitive.

I said the cheapest was $100.

Imagine you play Space Marines. Your only entries in the category are hundreds of dollars and no Lord of War ability turns your Captain's stormbolter into a D cannon, lol.



You may be trying to make the case, but you're going to fail horribly, lol.

There was a time and place for epic sized creatures and vehicles, and it was called Epic 40K. That wasn't enough for some people, so they made a silly game called Apocalypse so you could give Forgeworld all your monies.

Now it's in 40K, and the only thing escalating is the price and the hassle.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
This topic came up on Bolter & Chainsword, and I said this there:

But the reason why people are a bit perturbed that now they can't even play regular 40K without having to negotiate out titans is fairly obvious to me. It just makes the game that much more of a hassle if you just kinda liked it the way it was.

You have to negotiate to play 40K or any points based game regardless. So your point is moot.

Yes, it seems the real problem is D weapons. Maybe if they only hit one target, or at least used the small blast, they wouldn't be so overwhelming. That could have been a fast and easy fix that could have been done to bring D weapons more in line with regular 40k rules.

I wouldn't mind a friend bringing one of these escalation models to the table now and again. But if they did it everytime I would get heartily sick of it. But then the same would be true if I saw 3 Riptides or Hammerheads each game.

Rumbleguts wrote:
Yes, it seems the real problem is D weapons. Maybe if they only hit one target, or at least used the small blast, they wouldn't be so overwhelming. That could have been a fast and easy fix that could have been done to bring D weapons more in line with regular 40k rules.

I wouldn't mind a friend bringing one of these escalation models to the table now and again. But if they did it everytime I would get heartily sick of it. But then the same would be true if I saw 3 Riptides or Hammerheads each game.

I dont even think D weapons are a large problem as units that have them are huge point sinks and can be taken out if you adapt. And at the current rate GW is updating armies its only a matter of time before all armies have some way of dealing with super-heavies.

Just give it time guys.

It really is D weapons that are actually cause for conern. Not the sky is falling concern but debate and actual play testing.

SH and GMC are not bad but not broken.

BTW the real advantage of the GMC is their immunity to all of the quick kill options used against MC. ID, poison, and snipers are relatively meaningless against GMC. Tarpitting becomes much harder when the GMC has D3 stomp attacks or better. They also have excellent movement abilities, etc. There are benefits but they are represented by the price.

We've already been told by our local TO and event runner that both expansions are out.

 wowsmash wrote:
We've already been told by our local TO and event runner that both expansions are out.

Why does everyone talk like Tourneys are the only thing that matters? This isnt a competitive game no matter how much munchkin power-gamers try to say it is. I'm beginning to wonder if the problem isnt GW but are tournament power-gamers? As they seem to ruin everything. There are more ways to play 40K, along with so much variety, the community should be rejoicing, but instead you sit around and cry all day.

And at that GT dont have a SH, but at home have a list with one, and be ready to fight one.

Um probably because its easier to aquire then others. I play space marines so my option is a 650.00 dollar flyer I can't buy becuase forge world only takes credit and all my cards have a limit of 500. So unless I can order one through GW 3 towns away I'm out of luck.

The overpoweredness of super heavies or gangantuan creatures has nothing to do with what they are.. It is entirely to do with strength D shooting weapons.

Gargantuans have always been pretty much TERRIBLE in apoc, and are even worse now due to the new rules. Super heavies aren't very scary either due to the points you pay for the weapons you get.

 wowsmash wrote:
Um probably because its easier to aquire then others. I play space marines so my option is a 650.00 dollar flyer I can't buy becuase forge world only takes credit and all my cards have a limit of 500. So unless I can order one through GW 3 towns away I'm out of luck.

I understand you saying you cant afford one, and there is no shame in admitting it. But its obvious over the past few weeks that not many people can afford super-heavies, so I'm pretty sure you wont be the only person at your club without one.

Pfft. You mon'keighs are just learning what your place really is. You'll get used to it, now that the Reavers and Phantoms are more available.

 Gitsmasher wrote:

 wowsmash wrote:
Um probably because its easier to aquire then others. I play space marines so my option is a 650.00 dollar flyer I can't buy becuase forge world only takes credit and all my cards have a limit of 500. So unless I can order one through GW 3 towns away I'm out of luck.

I understand you saying you cant afford one, and there is no shame in admitting it. But its obvious over the past few weeks that not many people can afford super-heavies, so I'm pretty sure you wont be the only person at your club without one.

well I can afford one its just no way to get it. They only take credit card but no other option. Now if you could order one through a local GW store and have it shipped that way "hint hint" if anybody's listening at HQ. I'd buy one just to have the model in my chapter colors, but since they don't o well. I suppose I could try and get one through blue table painting but I was hoping to do the painting myself. Wonder if you could just order one through them or would I have to pay for assembly services in order to get it mm.

You could get a prepaid card.

You may be able to pay the store to order it for you. I am sure if you gave the store owner the money in cash they would be fine with using their business account (especially if you buy the paint etc. from the store at the same time).

Not really frightened of any of these things. I play Drop Pod Salamanders, and if there's a superheavy/gargantuan on the table, I'm thinking that my Sternguard can probably solve the problem, or at least cripple it to the point that it can be reasonably finished off by something else.

It's entirely possible that I'm being overconfident, but at this point I'm not sweating it.

 Gitsmasher wrote:
But its obvious over the past few weeks that not many people can afford super-heavies, so I'm pretty sure you wont be the only person at your club without one.

Which is exactly the problem. Escalation is bad enough if you just look at the rules, but it's a disaster if you get a situation where one player has a Revenant and nobody else can afford anything to compete with it.

 wowsmash wrote:
They only take credit card but no other option.

Honestly, how do you function in the modern world without at least a debit card?

I'm fine with it.
I'll bring Vulkan or Angron so I can have a story to tell.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Gitsmasher wrote:
But its obvious over the past few weeks that not many people can afford super-heavies, so I'm pretty sure you wont be the only person at your club without one.

Which is exactly the problem. Escalation is bad enough if you just look at the rules, but it's a disaster if you get a situation where one player has a Revenant and nobody else can afford anything to compete with it.

 wowsmash wrote:
They only take credit card but no other option.

Honestly, how do you function in the modern world without at least a debit card?

well for one I don't use my debit card for any online transactions. Credit cards have a limit and if it gets compromised there's minimal damage. Plus I think forgeworld says no debit cards but I might be mis-remebering

and I never said I didn't have credit cards. I just said the limit on them is 500.

You know the financial arguement is actually very strange.

If you are playing with a revenant you are playing 1750 pts or more. For 900 pts you get 4.5 waveserpents/5 man unit dire avengers. This is 357.75 usd (much more if you are Aus or Canada). For 900 pts (yep you guessed why I picked this "arbitrary" value) you get a reaver titan , which costs 318.51 usd (and same Aus or Canada!). So how is saving money a problem?

You say Ansacs I don't have a credit card!!! Well;
http://usa.visa.com/personal/cards/prepaid/

Yep just get a prepaid from your bank or visa and you are good to go.

If you want funny price a warhound titan versus sisters of battle...yeah.

The best value however is the necron army where the Transcendent C'Tan kit can easily be broken into ~9 scarab swarms, 1 monolith, and a Transcendent C'Tan for 160 usd. Or the C'Tan can be easily found on ebay for ~60 usd. That is a great deal for 780 pts of a good army.

Not everyone wants to play Apocolypse as the default game type. Personally I don't want to be TFG for telling someone I don't want to play against his titan in our 1500 point pickup game.

the cost is definatly a problem with the rules in escalation. in Apoc, you had a bit of flexability. if you wanted to use a baneblade with your space marines, chaos marines etc, it was cool. Apoc was designed to be flexable that way. Escalation however basicly says "bane blade are for IG players only" this gives guard, ork chaos marine and Necron players kind of a nasty advantage simply because their super heavies are cheaper and easier to get.

I mean how many bane blades can you buy for the cost of a single thunderhawk?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Gitsmasher wrote:
But its obvious over the past few weeks that not many people can afford super-heavies, so I'm pretty sure you wont be the only person at your club without one.

Which is exactly the problem. Escalation is bad enough if you just look at the rules, but it's a disaster if you get a situation where one player has a Revenant and nobody else can afford anything to compete with it.
?

Be smarter than that Peregrine.

after the initial 'OMGOP' reaction that seems to be standard, i've mellowed out somewhat. i played 2 Escallation games as tau last night. at 1850 points with my farsight enclaves army. First was an ork army with a squiggoth. this was finished off turn 1 by a missileside team with monster hunter (suitably lit up by a pathfinder team)

The second game, 2 Monat crisis suits with Fusion blasters dropped in, and blew a shadowsword to pieces on the second turn, after it took a chunk out of one of my poor riptides and left him at 1W left

For all their power, superheavies and gargantuan creatures take a chunk of points. so imo, an escallation game will be best played with superheavies on both sides, since both armies i faced, the inclusion of the big stuff compromised the rest of their army and they were unable to recover

Everyone is overreacting dramatically to Escalation.

I initially did as well, but I've calmed down somewhat now and played several games.

What I learned was that it really isn't so bad, from both the Super-Heavy end (which I enjoyed, though the game ended in a tie) and the not-superheavy-end (which I also enjoyed, and won).

So what people are saying is it's not so bad, as long as you melta-drop or play Tau?