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The void shields trigger when you cause hits. The rules say that if you collapse the shield the further hits strike the original target. So basically if you hit a target protected by 9 generated void shields with your 15 vulcan mega bolter shots, you can collapse all the 9 shields if you roll enough sixes.

However, what happens when you shoot a blast template on top of a squad of Guardsmen that are under the 9 shield bubble? Let's say your blast template covers 10 models. To me it seems that you get 10 hits against the void shields just like with any other weapon. The void shield generator replaces the original recipient of the hit with an AV12 shield. The blast template doesn't just disappear into thin air and cause a single hit against the unit and therefore the void shield, because how could you otherwise even keep assigning to the original target in case the void shield collapsed?

The curious thing comes when you hit the Guardsmen unit with a destroyer weapon's blast. You automatically collapse all of the 9 shields then and most likely kill one Guardsman.

Forgive me if this issue has been resolved or if it's self-evident. To me it seems that if this is how the shields work the circle jerk about them has been blown way out of proportion.

As I read the rules void shield generators work by unit not by model.

It reads the attack hits the shield instead of the unit. Since the shield works as a singular vehicle essentially a blast would only create 1 hit on the shield no matter hopw many models it hit.

Also a single str D hit will not collapse all shields. 1 D hit per shield.

 Mythantor wrote:
As I read the rules void shield generators work by unit not by model.

It reads the attack hits the shield instead of the unit. Since the shield works as a singular vehicle essentially a blast would only create 1 hit on the shield no matter hopw many models it hit.

Also a single str D hit will not collapse all shields. 1 D hit per shield.

That's how a lot of people think, only that's not what the rules actually say.

Where do you place the blast template? For the rule to play like you are describing, blast templates would have to be placed at the edge of the void shield's range, making the void shield a 'model'. Afterall, a blast can hit models inside and outside the void shield's protective area. The blast template can't simply disappear.

So in your interpretation you'd first roll to hit and scatter, and if it hits the original target, then instead of leaving it where it scattered, you'd move the template to the edge of the void shield zone? If you're now saying no you wouldn't, then the template would be placed where it landed. Now what if it hits 3 different units for 22 models total of which 10 are outside the void shield's protective area? Are you saying 10 models are hit and 1 hit is resolved against the void shield? That doesn't make any sense, as the protected units suffered 12 hits not 1. If you still claim that yes, that's how you'd play it, what if the 12 protected models weren't from a single unit, but five different units, making them five targets. The rule says each time a target is hit within the protected area the hit is resolved against the shield instead (a blast naturally causes more than one hit if the unit has more than one model, but that's for the previous interpretation). Would the void shield then be hit 5 times? No matter what, the 1 hit to the shield per blast seems woefully incorrect and not based on any rules whatsoever.

I don't think there is a good RAW way to answer other then it's a force field.

HIWPI

Like Star Wars, Star Trek and more recently Under the Dome, that large blast goes off on the shield itself on its way to the target.

For Blasts, you count up the number of hits on the unit, and begin applying those hits until the shield is dropped, the remainder of the hits go back to the unit.

This is why D weapons are so nasty against a single shield; most are blast weapons; and as soon as the hit is allocated, the shield is down.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
For Blasts, you count up the number of hits on the unit, and begin applying those hits until the shield is dropped, the remainder of the hits go back to the unit.

This is why D weapons are so nasty against a single shield; most are blast weapons; and as soon as the hit is allocated, the shield is down.

This.

The Timing is a problem;
In order to evoke the Shield Projection Special Rule the unit needs to first be successfully Hit.

It doesn't matter how the To Hit Results are being generated at the time, the key element in this situation is when we have permission to evoke the Special Rule in question. Only after the Hit is successful do we have permission to "Reallocate*" them to the Special Rule itself. At this point, the Special Rule would require us to generate new To Hit results or contain some verbiage informing us to return to the To Hit section of the sequence and re-calculate the results. I do not remember seeing such instructions within the Shield Projection Special Rule but the amount of haze my brain has been in of late I wouldn't be surprised if I overlooked a step.

Besides, how would we go about re-calculating the Blast Marker's To Hit Result with the Shield Projection?
I do go out of my way to point out that you resolve the Hit's against the Shield Projection, not against the Shield Generator or against anything else, for a reason. This is very unusual because it is one of a handful of situations we have found where you are resolving a Shooting Attack against a non-entity. The only reason it works here, as in the other few situations, is because the Special Rule's involved are self-contained and informs us exactly how to go about resolving this situation. Once we start trying to operate outside of those instructions we encounter all sorts of problems; so we would need precise instructions informing us how to go back and re-calculate To Hit Results with Blast Markers if that was the intended method of resolution.

* I don't personally like the idea that you are re-allocating the wounds to some sort of 'non-model,' instead I view it as nothing more then resolving as Special Rule and that doesn't require re-allocating.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
For Blasts, you count up the number of hits on the unit, and begin applying those hits until the shield is dropped, the remainder of the hits go back to the unit.

This is why D weapons are so nasty against a single shield; most are blast weapons; and as soon as the hit is allocated, the shield is down.

You could've been clearer. I asked many specific questions. So you believe that if 10 guardsmen are protected by 9 void shields and get struck by a Pulsar that hits them all, all 9 void shields collapse and you roll once on the D table for a single guardsman?

JinxDragon wrote:The Timing is a problem;
In order to evoke the Shield Projection Special Rule the unit needs to first be successfully Hit.

I don't personally like the idea that you are re-allocating the wounds to some sort of 'non-model,' instead I view it as nothing more then resolving as Special Rule and that doesn't require re-allocating.

Your post is confusing since I have a hard time deciphering your conclusion, but it seems to me you're agreeing with what I posted above. A single blast can collapse as many void shields as it hits models.

In game terms of course this makes void shield generators extremely weak for protecting formations of vehicles and infantry, and are really only good when there's a single model like a Titan under the sphere of protection. The rule works, but it's unrealistic. Why does a Pulsar that hits a dozen Guardsmen collapse all 9 shields and most likely kills 3 guys while a Pulsar that hits a lone Grot only collapses 1 shield and the Grot survives?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
For Blasts, you count up the number of hits on the unit, and begin applying those hits until the shield is dropped, the remainder of the hits go back to the unit.

This is why D weapons are so nasty against a single shield; most are blast weapons; and as soon as the hit is allocated, the shield is down.

This is the only RAW way to do it, 10 gaurdsmen = 9 shields down and 1 dead gaurdsmen.

it makes multiple shields protecting multiple infantry weak, but multiple shields protecting vehicles is awesome since the blast can only score a single hit, it just collapses a single shield.

it seems a little weird overall but its just the way the rules work.

a squad of 10 hit would collapse the shields and single infantry would take a D hit.

replacing the infantry blob with a vehicle wold result in only a single shield being dropped because only one hit is scored.

 Therion wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
For Blasts, you count up the number of hits on the unit, and begin applying those hits until the shield is dropped, the remainder of the hits go back to the unit.

This is why D weapons are so nasty against a single shield; most are blast weapons; and as soon as the hit is allocated, the shield is down.

You could've been clearer. I asked many specific questions. So you believe that if 10 guardsmen are protected by 9 void shields and get struck by a Pulsar that hits them all, all 9 void shields collapse and you roll once on the D table for a single guardsman?

Exactly, yes.

I am not surprised by this turn of events at all, though do agree that it is a little unusual from a narrative point of view. Blast weapons have always been far more efficient at killing groups of individuals then at killing lone models. It makes a sort of twisted sense for this 'better against group' effect to still be present in situations involving a shield, as I doubt the writers intended to cripple the main tactical benefit Blast Markers are primarily used for.

Narrative wise:
Clearly the shield did not stop the physical projectile from making it through, but did defect it away from the Unit being targeted enough that they suffered less casualties when it exploded.

Weird. I would think a Heavy 1, Blast could only take out 1 shield even if the blast could normally do 9 hits/wounds to a unit of guardsmen inside.

The rules actually state you resolve all potential wounds against the target unit to the shield instead? I haven't had the chance to play against/with void shields yet. Stupid holidays.

The rules have you allocate the hits to the Shield first, resolving each in turn until the shield is down, you do the same for each shield in play; when there are no longer shields in effect the remaining hits go back to the unit.

 Mythantor wrote:
Since the shield works as a singular vehicle essentially a blast would only create 1 hit on the shield no matter how many models it hit.

But this? No?

The 1 blast that did 10 hits would perform 1 hit on the shield as if it was a vehicle, would it not? is that not the wording of the Void shields?

BlackTalos,
The number of 'Successful Hits' generated by the Blast Maker is calculated before the Void Shield Projection Special Rule comes into effect.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Mythantor wrote:
Since the shield works as a singular vehicle essentially a blast would only create 1 hit on the shield no matter how many models it hit.

But this? No?

The 1 blast that did 10 hits would perform 1 hit on the shield as if it was a vehicle, would it not? is that not the wording of the Void shields?

The blast hits the unit 10 times each of those hits transfer to the shield. The blast never hits the shield the template never moves nor is transfered only the hits effect the shield.

Ah i see why the issue of timing then.

RAW says 9 (+1 dead)

But would you HIWPI at 1 shield per template?

I wouldn't accept it as How I Would Play it, for while it does better fit 'narrative' there could be unintended circumstances of reducing the number of hit's in this scenario.

Blast Markers, and in particular the cost added to weapons which use them, are designed to be more effective against groups of individuals then against singular models. This means you have a tactical decision to make when you purchase one, you have to decide if the chance of encountering the scenarios that give Blast Markers the advantage is high enough to justify the cost. You purchase these weapons knowing that any reasonable opponent is going to see them, and start to stagger their forces to minimize that tactical advantage. Blast Markers force both players to make more tactical choices during the course of the game, all because they have the possibility of generating multiple Wounds on a single shot.

Allowing a third element, particularly one as cheap as a void shield, to remove that advantage would greatly change the face of the battle in ways we can not fore-see.

HIWPI is 10 hits on the shield. Void shields are good enough they don't need extra help.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Ah i see why the issue of timing then.

RAW says 9 (+1 dead)

But would you HIWPI at 1 shield per template?

Unless there's some FAQ, isn't it (on average) D3+1 models? You roll on the chart for each hit. Hit's aren't allocated to models, wounds are. You add d3+1 wounds to the wound pool and then allocate. The unit will "Lose D3+1 wounds" per 2-5 and D6+6 per 6. There isn't a rule in 40k like in Fantasy that prevents more wounds being generated than a model has. That's the RAW anyway. I don't know that I agree RAW allows the cascading collapse of multiple shields like you say, but they are fairly worthless vs. Large Blast D weapons if that is the case, i.e. almost all of them.

Angelic wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Ah i see why the issue of timing then.

RAW says 9 (+1 dead)

But would you HIWPI at 1 shield per template?

Unless there's some FAQ, isn't it (on average) D3+1 models? You roll on the chart for each hit. Hit's aren't allocated to models, wounds are. You add d3+1 wounds to the wound pool and then allocate. The unit will "Lose D3+1 wounds" per 2-5 and D6+6 per 6. There isn't a rule in 40k like in Fantasy that prevents more wounds being generated than a model has. That's the RAW anyway. I don't know that I agree RAW allows the cascading collapse of multiple shields like you say, but they are fairly worthless vs. Large Blast D weapons if that is the case, i.e. almost all of them.

A) Blast weapons Cause 1 hit per model beneath trhe marker; these are basic rules.

B) That is not at all what D weapons do, they can cause D3+1 Wounds the models hit

Thanks everyone for the contributions. I think this has been resolved.

Better not bunch up inside your void shields! Might be hard though considering some weapons have 10" (or bigger) blasts

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Angelic wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Ah i see why the issue of timing then.

RAW says 9 (+1 dead)

But would you HIWPI at 1 shield per template?

Unless there's some FAQ, isn't it (on average) D3+1 models? You roll on the chart for each hit. Hit's aren't allocated to models, wounds are. You add d3+1 wounds to the wound pool and then allocate. The unit will "Lose D3+1 wounds" per 2-5 and D6+6 per 6. There isn't a rule in 40k like in Fantasy that prevents more wounds being generated than a model has. That's the RAW anyway. I don't know that I agree RAW allows the cascading collapse of multiple shields like you say, but they are fairly worthless vs. Large Blast D weapons if that is the case, i.e. almost all of them.

A) Blast weapons Cause 1 hit per model beneath trhe marker; these are basic rules.

B) That is not at all what D weapons do, they can cause D3+1 Wounds the models hit

A) Never disputed that.

B) Nowhere does it say that. D weapons follow same rules except for rolling to wound. Wounds go into wound pool and are then allocated. D weapons add multiple wounds to the wound pool, never 1. There is no 1 wound result.

 Therion wrote:
The rule works, but it's unrealistic. Why does a Pulsar that hits a dozen Guardsmen collapse all 9 shields and most likely kills 3 guys while a Pulsar that hits a lone Grot only collapses 1 shield and the Grot survives?

You're right, it is unrealistic, just like a lot of other rules in 40k, including the entire wound allocation system. You have to just accept that it's an abstraction to make the game run more efficiently.

 Mythantor wrote:
As I read the rules void shield generators work by unit not by model.

It reads the attack hits the shield instead of the unit. Since the shield works as a singular vehicle essentially a blast would only create 1 hit on the shield no matter hopw many models it hit.

Also a single str D hit will not collapse all shields. 1 D hit per shield.

This is correct,

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Mythantor wrote:
As I read the rules void shield generators work by unit not by model.

It reads the attack hits the shield instead of the unit. Since the shield works as a singular vehicle essentially a blast would only create 1 hit on the shield no matter hopw many models it hit.

Also a single str D hit will not collapse all shields. 1 D hit per shield.

This is correct,

You might want to explain yourself a little bit if you intend to keep this discussion going. The interpretation that you view as correct has no backing in the rules whatsoever, and if it has, that evidence hasn't been provided in this thread.

Mythantor wrote:As I read the rules void shield generators work by unit not by model.

So, just to clarify, you are of the opinion that a weapon that hits a unit of 10 Guardsmen causes only 1 hit on the void shields, and if it manages to collapse the void shield, all the extra hits are wasted despite the rules explicitly saying they're not wasted and you keep assigning? So basically you think that an apocalyptic blast template simply disappears and gets sucked into an invisible wall. Further on, you are of the opinion that if the blast hit three units of 10 Guardsmen it would cause 3 hits on void shields?

Because its the way its been played since apoc came out.

Otherwise you'd assume a titan with 9 void shields would lose them all to a single S: D shot. Its intended to work in layers.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Because its the way its been played since apoc came out.

Otherwise you'd assume a titan with 9 void shields would lose them all to a single S: D shot. Its intended to work in layers.

A Titan only loses 1 void shield per D shot, unless the same blast hits other models in addition to the Titan. It will be pretty hard unless you truly bunch up everything you got in base to base with your Reaver Titan.

Nope.

That's not how it works. 1 Blast = 1 shield.