[Heavy Gear] General Discussion Thread

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**warboss**

For paper copies, look on eBay for the core rulebooks from older editions as they can usually be bought for less than ten bucks including shipping.. There are PDFs on sale as well legally on drive thru RPG so you don't have to resort to the pirated copies floating around.

**Smilodon_UP**

It would seem we're already done discussing mecha orientation in game settings. 'Tis OK.

And the silence on the Alpha again after all the hoopla over scheduling and releasing the sub-lists, sheesh. Though I guess it's rather silly to keep being surprised at what all they manage not to accomplish given the Pod's track record.

ferrous wrote:
Chemical Cutthroat wrote:
Though I think Gundam MS08th Team is my favorite for gritty, land based mecha action.

Yup, that was one of the few Gundam shows I liked. But we're both mentioning shows that are almost a decade older or more. GiTS was 2005, 8th ms team was 1996. Ouch.

I watched (4) episodes here over last week of 08th MS Team with Indonesian subtitles. It had it's moments, but not really all that many for my tastes to make me want to finish watching it.

I do quite like the second PatLabor movie though, with it's heavy political subplots.

_
_

**Albertorius**

Smilodon_UP wrote:
And the silence on the Alpha again after all the hoopla over scheduling and releasing the sub-lists, sheesh. Though I guess it's rather silly to keep being surprised at what all they manage not to accomplish given the Pod's track record.

Heh. You know what? I didn't even notice xD. Guess it shows how invested I am in all that.

ferrous wrote:
Chemical Cutthroat wrote:
Though I think Gundam MS08th Team is my favorite for gritty, land based mecha action.

Yup, that was one of the few Gundam shows I liked. But we're both mentioning shows that are almost a decade older or more. GiTS was 2005, 8th ms team was 1996. Ouch.

I watched (4) episodes here over last week of 08th MS Team with Indonesian subtitles. It had it's moments, but not really all that many for my tastes to make me want to finish watching it.

You might be looking for something Gundam really is not, because subtle it usually isn't xD. One of the Gundam shows I like most is still War in the Pocket, though, and still most of the series I like are UC, particularly One Year War and whereabouts.

I personally am much more eclectic with my mecha likings, I guess, because there have been some shows I have liked these last years, and they range pretty much through the whole range of the "Super Robot-Real Robot" axis ^_^

lesee, from the non Gundam franchises:

- Tengen Toppa Guren Lagann, because duh

- Rideback (...well, the premise at least was great, and inspired me a great campaign)
- Macross Frontier (and everything Macross, I'm a bit of a fanboy)
- Infinite Ryvius was pretty great, but I'm not sure you could call it "mecha anime"
- Yamato 2199, same as above but even moreso (even then, if you haven't seen it yet, I recommend it greatly)
- Full Metal Panic, but except the last series is all older
- Broken Blade has its moments
- Sidonia no Kishi, but it is... weird xD
- Eureka Seven is fantastic, but a bit dense. And the sequels/prequels are mostly crap
- Flag was gorgeous, and made me want to know more about the setting
- Suisei no Gargantia I liked a lot, and being a series written by Urobutcher, it was pretty mild ^_^

That said, there has truly been a dearth of really great mecha anime shows in the last years, particularly of the more "real" side of the axis

I do quite like the second PatLabor movie though, with it's heavy political subplots.

Mostly everything Patlabor is pretty great, but the second movie is the absolute best. WXIII does not exist

**ferrous**

We're getting so derailed, but that's okay.

Albertorious must have different definitions of grounded, if his first suggestion is Tengen Toppa Guren Lagann. =) That's like the opposite of grounded. (it's not a bad show though)

Of that list, I think only Flag counts, and honestly, because it's trying to be real world, it's missteps made it worse for me.

RE: Smilodon and Ms08th, it's a slow build series with some slow/filler-ish stuff in the middle, for being gundam, it's surprisingly grounded though, and I think that's what I liked about it, it has been a while since I've seen it to see how it holds up.

**Albertorius**

ferrous wrote:
We're getting so derailed, but that's okay.

Albertorius must have different definitions of grounded, if his first suggestion is Tengen Toppa Guren Lagann. =) That's like the opposite of grounded. (it's not a bad show though)

...well, as I said...

I personally am much more eclectic with my mecha likings, I guess, because there have been some shows I have liked these last years, and they range pretty much through the whole range of the "Super Robot-Real Robot" axis ^_^

I'd also say that Patlabor tends to be surprisingly grounded when they don't go for comedy.

**BrandonKF**

Eumerin wrote:
Smilodon_UP wrote:
Yeah, as had been said many times before anything in the setting that doesn't have a "promoter" gets treated in an extremely shoddy manner. Someone commented to me recently that even the North is getting that treatment now, as if it's merely an afterthought the Pod has to keep going just because it's such a big thing in the source material(s) by being an original primary faction.

Is it related to the religious aspect of the North? I remember a thread on the DP9 forums a while back in which the majority of the posters seemed stunned by the idea that the North wasn't the default "bad guy" in the North vs South conflicts due to its strong religious tendencies. The fact that the South was politically repressive got a shrugged dismissal, as it wasn't seen as a particularly big deal. I wouldn't be surprised if the importance of religion in the North, coupled with the fact that the North isn't (contrary to the above expressed idea) a default "bad guy", is a problem for some of the people currently working on the current iteration of the game.

I am not aware of this thread. And being a religious person I would argue against it.

The fact that religion gets used to do evil things shouldn't be reason enough to go 'oh, they're religious, they're bad guys'. It's as much a knee-jerk reaction in my humble opinion as anything else that involves plot lines.

But I won't go into that any further. Suffice to say, in Heavy Gear, everyone can be the bad guy if they wished to be.

ferrous wrote:
Albertorius wrote:

For me, one of the very big things that needs to be reintroduced would be verisimilitude. I don't need things to be "realistic" (because, well, stompy robots, duh), but I need it to be coherent and believable enough.

And honestly, since the NuCoal book (and even before, TBH) basically nothing I've seen in the newer Blitz books has been. Not in the mechanical sense (Gearstriders... >_>, particularly the Drake, of course, or... well, basically every NuCoal design in that book) or the world building sense (the NuCoal/HA/exodus shenanigans coupled with the sudden but inevitable tenfold population growth feels... well, absolutely nuts and stupid, or at least as if someone expects me to be stupid).

So yeah, less of that, please.

Yup, that's me as well, the series stretches things enough as is with the Gears alone, but then they go an decide to add "Bigger is better" models, which felt like a shameless attempt to get sales at the price of the setting. And tanks with arms, ugh. That book was so full of terrible. And it wasn't just the models, but the rules were bad too. The herohammer KADA, the triple-linked MRPs, the hey, we're the new faction, so we're totally built to utilize the current ruleset, with ECCM on every CGL and other various advantages, while all previous factions adhered to fluff. Oh and their TV was way off in comparison to everyone else at launch, making them essentially unplayable with the other factions. NuCoal was a real FUBAR mess.

Smilodon_UP wrote:
BrandonKF wrote:
Sadly, both of which are intended for players whose interest coincides with a "mecha-oriented" take on the setting. Which leaves me out, again .....
I don't know what you mean when you say 'mecha-oriented'.

* Real life and real war involves more than a little mud and blood, lightened occasionally by outbreaks of gallows humor or tension driven antics. Whatever amount of grit the HG setting had in this area is long since gone.

* Combat is about making the first, best, attack. This obviously has to be changed and balanced significantly to make a tabletop wargame fun enough to play repeatedly, but should not be an acceptable compromise in the fiction. Fair play is one side not wanting to walk away alive, instead of being merciful as allowable to hostile survivors after one side wins. HG has chosen to only rarely reference war to the knife, and even then just in passing.

* In conflicts it's the faceless ranks fighting small actions no one else will ever truly care about beyond the few of either side who were there in the moment that enable a resolution. History is instead about the decisions made by a chosen few visible to the populace for whatever reason, who essentially take credit for the actions of others, when most of time they merely provided directions and/or resources. But again, this is almost never what any HG story is like.

* Putting aside for the moment a dubious need for "arena" vehicle bloodsports, the only non-weapon systems that should exist if the setting includes viable anthropomorphic and non-anthropomorphic combat walkers are perhaps basic vibro-blades, chainswords, spike guns, and chassis reinforcement. Things best able to be used as efficient light engineering tools that also prevent damage to the machine(s) when carrying out those kinds of tasks, just like on any other vehicle type. Actual use as a vehicular weapon should be extremely rare actions of utter desperation, not a viable choice on a ranged battlefield that is supposedly highly lethal due to every machine having it's own very capable computer brain. However, everyone knows mecha-melee will never go away, or even get pared down to this kind of level, for any setting.

* Any vehicle facing more than two to one odds by itself should never be able to win. At best it should hope to end up with a draw and go for causing as much damage as possible in a single attack, or try to withdraw. Outside of a duel, which again is kind of dubious in such a setting, any duelist should be killed just like everyone else when this happens. But "mary-sue" hero figures are always going to be the norm in any setting, otherwise no one would bother with it beyond a small handful.

* One core tenet in the HG setting is that Gears are mass produced IFVs requiring only a single pilot, with interchangeable semi-AI brains of varying personality capability. Although many soldiers of some national origins tend to identify with their vehicle as a fellow solider, it doesn't mean they won't use another of the type they are trained on from the same unit any differently. Much like the Fuchikomas or landmates in manga, the machines should be viewed by a unit as a collateral whole available for usage as needed. But this never happens, it's always a focus on Gears as if they were mini-'mechs or mini-gundams.

* I can actually get behind the concept of child soldiers based on young adults who have to mature faster in a hostile environment given how quickly even "hot" cold wars eat up personnel and materiel. But the angsty part always seems to tag along anyways, I guess just to draw a bigger crowd looking for the T&A + sexual tension manga aspect.

BrandonKF wrote:
What would make things coherent?
HudsonD wrote:
Remotely competent writers.

I think I just proved my ideas in this area are too contrary to what the larger community wants to have any affect whatsoever on the matter. And IME, coherent is never going to happen, or be allowed to happen.

Albertorius wrote:
I do have hopes for Arkrite. Let's see how it pans out, but at the very least Robert isn't there >_>

But Robert still holds the licensing, so there will be some influence on things he doesn't want to see, or on things he wants to try and sell. And everyone here knows how good he is at figuring out either of those concepts in a useful manner.

Albertorius wrote:
BrandonKF wrote:
I like the additional foil the New Coalition brings to the world of Heavy Gear.
Don't get me wrong. I don't dislike the idea of the NuCoal. I dislike the implementation we've got.

I haven't seen anything yet in what Jason and Greg have released to make me doubt they won't continue in that same vein either.

Eumerin wrote:
Is it related to the religious aspect of the North? I remember a thread on the DP9 forums a while back in which the majority of the posters seemed stunned by the idea that the North wasn't the default "bad guy" in the North vs South conflicts due to its strong religious tendencies. The fact that the South was politically repressive got a shrugged dismissal, as it wasn't seen as a particularly big deal.

In other games it might be something like that, but I think you're vastly over-thinking the situation. It's more that none of TPTB who're left personally play North as their faction. Only Paxton is represented that anyone knows of.

There is also some question as to how smart the folks at the top actually are about things like this, involving either intangible ideas like religion or seeing how badly they self-promote their own ideas. Personally though, I don't assume much anymore that TPTB have that kind of brains when they do even bother to try and think things through.

ferrous wrote:
[...] but then they go an decide to add "Bigger is better" models, which felt like a shameless attempt to get sales at the price of the setting. [...] Oh and their TV was way off in comparison to everyone else at launch, making them essentially unplayable with the other factions.

$$$ grab sales is exactly what it is. Notice which models are always getting pushed through the pipeline over at the Pod? Big, one-off showpieces they must know only a handful of folks will buy, that are somehow expected to keep things going just a little longer. All those other models getting passed over, may never see the light of day. Nor may those currently without any art ever get art - because the generalissimo is very, very bad about wanting to pay anyone in anything but product, whether or not the freelancer can make any use of it.

But yeah, they are really bad about the TV thing getting figured correctly to start, and then altering things that shouldn't be so as to make them more viable than something else they don't care about as much. Like say the Scimitar, which should cost more than a Standard Mammoth to around what an Aller goes for - except it got discounted to match the Drake, which is itself probably undercosted. As is the Hussar too most likely, so that people would buy and use it, no matter how poorly they might perform in-game.

_
_

Smilodon, you're talking to somebody who was a real soldier.

Gallows humor I know. Mud and dirt and blood I know. But I also know the extreme boredom that comes with 'real war'. If folks wanted to roleplay 'real war', they would find it comes down more to just staying awake and alert for more hours than you can count, punctuated by a very few moments of stunned astonishment, fear, anger, hatred, and grief, mixed with more shouting and shoving between guys who rub each other the wrong way every single day and can't get away from one another and can't shoot each other, either.

Folks talk about over-sexual comments and whatnot, and all I can think is back when I was 19, and not getting ANY damned thing in the field and over there (some of these guys don't even realize that we could not, and would not, play around with the women over there for very SPECIFIC reasons... think Uniform Code of Military Justice, rape, and Fort Leavenworth, combined with a fear of catching something you'd need to go see the medics about)... Lord God have mercy, they don't know over-sexual. At all.

warboss wrote:In the RPG's "defense", we simply haven't seen enough of any part of it to make much of a determination of where it will go. They may genuinely like much derided things introduced in Blitz like gear striders and the rabbit-like procreation habits of badlanders that caused the massive population boom... or they're mandated to follow the established fluff to some extent by the license (and pride on the part of DP9 in not admitting that they were wrong). We'll likely never know which is true but we don't even have enough info yet to know if either is.

HudsonD wrote:
Smilodon_UP wrote:

$$$ grab sales is exactly what it is. Notice which models are always getting pushed through the pipeline over at the Pod? Big, one-off showpieces they must know only a handful of folks will buy, that are somehow expected to keep things going just a little longer. All those other models getting passed over, may never see the light of day. Nor may those currently without any art ever get art - because the generalissimo is very, very bad about wanting to pay anyone in anything but product, whether or not the freelancer can make any use of it.

Bolded for emphasis, and I can confirm this as factual and accurate.
If anyone wondered why DP9 can't attract and/or retain talent to save their life, now you know...

warboss wrote:Brandon, any news on whether the rpg crew will be at gencon and/or if there will be any products for sale by then?

I am unable to say, warboss.

But If you'd like to know, feel free to ask on their blog. They just posted a new little blog here:

http://arkritepress.com/2014/06/05/the-breath-of-life-the-importance-of-a-well-developed-character-background/

warboss wrote:Does anyone know what exactly the Welcome in the Jungle RPG product will be? It is just an adventure for the old ruleset or will it contain the new version of the rules in some basic form ala the intro adventures for D&D?

Chemical Cutthroat wrote:
warboss wrote:
Does anyone know what exactly the Welcome in the Jungle RPG product will be? It is just an adventure for the old ruleset or will it contain the new version of the rules in some basic form ala the intro adventures for D&D?

For the uninitiated like myself, where would be the best place to find ANY info on the RPG? I hear a thing or two in passing, but nothing concrete.

warboss gave a good answer. DriveThruRPG's scans are a bit low-grade, but they're passable if you don't mind them.

As far as what Rumble in the Jungle is, I cannot say exactly, since I'm not working on that. Mr. Wong and Mr. O'Connor are, and God bless them in it.

Toward that end:

I have an announcement of my own for my Heavy Gear: Thunder Run blog.

You may find the link to the new Heavy Gear: Thunder Run 2.0 rules here:

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=ECD989BDB2A355BD!160&ithint=file%2c.docx&app=Word&authkey=!AL2kJoZ4K4lK3g4

A quotation from the introduction:

"Hi.

I’m back.

So, the first edition of my rules for Heavy Gear: Thunder Run is now two years old. With the passing of time, a lot has begun to change.

The current alpha version of Dream Pod 9’s Heavy Gear Blitz version 5.0 has been steadily approaching its beta form.

Corvus Belli has finally leaked that their Infinity version 3.0 rules are soon to be delivered to the world.

Where does that leave me?

Hacking the old Infinity rules and plugging them into Heavy Gear: Thunder Run.

This was my original intent when I got started, but after I began I promptly abandoned the idea, seeing the vast plethora of war machines that are in the repertoire of Terra Nova, Earth, and the other planets. I also didn’t even know if I could do it.

Well, you only live once, so I’m revisiting the original idea.

Below you will find the compilation. Every Heavy Gear, strider, APC, IFV, and tank {carro de combate, right Corvus Belli?

} will be given an Infinity profile, with a few distinct changes to accommodate Heavy Gear’s unique style.

Hopefully for Infinity players, this will be like revisiting an old friend who just worked out a bit.

For Heavy Gear (and you newcomer) players, if you need references, please aim your cursors to Corvus Belli’s Infinity page and download the free rules for Infinity 2.0 and Human Sphere.

When I approached the idea previously with a few rather wise individuals, they did point out that Infinity operates at a personnel-scale while Heavy Gear operates on a vehicular-scale.

They are absolutely right.

So I cannot say that everything here will work as well as I want it to. Hopefully though those who see these rules will give them a going over and share their experiences with me (selfish of me, but I do love reading battle reports and looking at great pictures of friends enjoying themselves).

Whatever needs revision or work, please do let me know. I welcome and relish the feedback.

Rules……..page 2
Northern Army Creation and Gears……..Page 9
Southern Army Creation and Gears………Page 21
Riveran Army Creation and Gears…….Page 32
Weapons…….Page 44"

Peace, all.

-Brandon F.

**Smilodon_UP**

BrandonKF wrote:
Smilodon_UP wrote:
BrandonKF wrote:
Smilodon_UP wrote:
Sadly, both of which are intended for players whose interest coincides with a "mecha-oriented" take on the setting. Which leaves me out, again .....
I don't know what you mean when you say 'mecha-oriented'.
Whatever amount of grit the HG setting had in this area is long since gone.
HG has chosen to only rarely reference war to the knife, and even then just in passing.
But again, this is almost never what any HG story is like.
However, everyone knows mecha-melee will never go away, or even get pared down to this kind of level, for any setting.
But "mary-sue" hero figures are always going to be the norm in any setting, otherwise no one would bother with it beyond a small handful.
But this never happens, it's always a focus on Gears as if they were mini-'mechs or mini-gundams.
But the angsty part always seems to tag along anyways, I guess just to draw a bigger crowd looking for the T&A + sexual tension manga aspect.
Smilodon, you're talking to somebody who was a real soldier.

Gallows humor I know. Mud and dirt and blood I know. But I also know the extreme boredom that comes with 'real war'.

I know that you were, as was I too?

You asked what I felt "mecha oriented" to be, /shrug

**Chemical Cutthroat**

I am ****ing impressed.

That is almost exactly what I had been working on the past few days.

Thank you chief. This is going to be a ton of fun.

...I am now going to abuse the work printer because it is my late shift and I'm the only one here. Hi-Hi Laser Jet! Awaaaaaay!

**BrandonKF**

Understood. Though 'mecha' in general has that in part because of 'super-robot' and 'Gundam' more than anything. Though that's my opinion.

The reason why I found Heavy Gear refreshing when I was 16 was that it threw out the old Mechwarrior/Gundam thing and said, "OK, here's what you get."

After having served, I have a renewed appreciation for it.

I can only say that I hope Arkrite Press will change the mindset and expectations of everyone involved.

-Brandon F.

**Smilodon_UP**

BrandonKF wrote:
Understood. Though 'mecha' in general has that in part because of 'super-robot' and 'Gundam' more than anything. Though that's my opinion.
I can only say that I hope Arkrite Press will change the mindset and expectations of everyone involved.

Ah, alright, having read those stories you emailed, if it's what you see and how you see it, that is your perspective.

It's your setting, your life experience, and your work man. Good luck on getting more published with Arkrite and/or Aurora.

...moving on...

**BrandonKF**

Chemical Cutthroat wrote:I am ****ing impressed.

That is almost exactly what I had been working on the past few days.

Thank you chief. This is going to be a ton of fun.

...I am now going to abuse the work printer because it is my late shift and I'm the only one here. Hi-Hi Laser Jet! Awaaaaaay!

That isn't the end. I haven't gotten into infantry and the rest, Cutthroat. No New Coalition, no CEF, no nothing yet.

But that compliment alone will inspire me to continue on making this ruleset.

Smilodon_UP wrote:
BrandonKF wrote:
Understood. Though 'mecha' in general has that in part because of 'super-robot' and 'Gundam' more than anything. Though that's my opinion.
I can only say that I hope Arkrite Press will change the mindset and expectations of everyone involved.

Ah, alright, having read those stories you emailed, if it's what you see and how you see it, that is your perspective.

It's your setting, your life experience, and your work man. Good luck on getting more published with Arkrite and/or Aurora.

...moving on...

What you read has been expanded on, my friend. It will be expanded, grown, and, with any fortune, it will mature. I deeply appreciate it.

-Brandon F.

**Chemical Cutthroat**

Well by all means keep it up! And if you need any help or a sounding board for working on something, just shoot me a PM. I'd be happy to lend a hand.

**BrandonKF**

Chemical Cutthroat wrote:
Well by all means keep it up! And if you need any help or a sounding board for working on something, just shoot me a PM. I'd be happy to lend a hand.

I do in fact wish anybody (and by anybody I mean anybody) who desires to playtest the rules and let me know. If you have a blog, feel free to e-mail it to me at my e-mail.

Or go on Facebook and look me up. I'm Brandon Keith Fero. Or look in my open Facebook Group, Heavy Gear Pictures.

If not there, I'm also on the Dream Pod 9 forums, and I can always respond to comments on my blog or on Google+.

Editing hint: Battle reports are welcomed and very much an enjoyment of mine.

Second edit: Actually, any kind of help is appreciated. So if you see any discrepancies, please let me know.

-Brandon F.

**Eumerin**

BrandonKF wrote:
Eumerin wrote:
Smilodon_UP wrote:
Yeah, as had been said many times before anything in the setting that doesn't have a "promoter" gets treated in an extremely shoddy manner. Someone commented to me recently that even the North is getting that treatment now, as if it's merely an afterthought the Pod has to keep going just because it's such a big thing in the source material(s) by being an original primary faction.

Is it related to the religious aspect of the North? I remember a thread on the DP9 forums a while back in which the majority of the posters seemed stunned by the idea that the North wasn't the default "bad guy" in the North vs South conflicts due to its strong religious tendencies. The fact that the South was politically repressive got a shrugged dismissal, as it wasn't seen as a particularly big deal. I wouldn't be surprised if the importance of religion in the North, coupled with the fact that the North isn't (contrary to the above expressed idea) a default "bad guy", is a problem for some of the people currently working on the current iteration of the game.

I am not aware of this thread. And being a religious person I would argue against it.

The fact that religion gets used to do evil things shouldn't be reason enough to go 'oh, they're religious, they're bad guys'. It's as much a knee-jerk reaction in my humble opinion as anything else that involves plot lines.

But I won't go into that any further. Suffice to say, in Heavy Gear, everyone can be the bad guy if they wished to be.

I'm not arguing that religion makes you evil. I'm mentioning that there seems to be a knee-jerk reaction among some elements of the fanbase that it does.

The thread that I'm referring to was probably posted back in 2011. I vaguely recall that a new player started the thread, and was asking about fluff-based stuff regarding the North and South. The posts from the players were overwhelming in painting the North in a sinister light due to importance of religion in the North. The South, in contrast, was seen as largely positive since it wasn't dominated by a religion like the North was. The fact that the South has very serious restrictions on political freedoms was seen as not a very big deal.

Not all of the posts were along those lines. But the majority of them were.

Unfortunately, when I went poking through DP9's forums just a bit ago, I couldn't locate the post. But given how long ago it was, that's probably not too surprising.

**BrandonKF**

Eumerin wrote:

I'm not arguing that religion makes you evil. I'm mentioning that there seems to be a knee-jerk reaction among some elements of the fanbase that it does.

The thread that I'm referring to was probably posted back in 2011. I vaguely recall that a new player started the thread, and was asking about fluff-based stuff regarding the North and South. The posts from the players were overwhelming in painting the North in a sinister light due to importance of religion in the North. The South, in contrast, was seen as largely positive since it wasn't dominated by a religion like the North was. The fact that the South has very serious restrictions on political freedoms was seen as not a very big deal.

Not all of the posts were along those lines. But the majority of them were.

Unfortunately, when I went poking through DP9's forums just a bit ago, I couldn't locate the post. But given how long ago it was, that's probably not too surprising.

I didn't believe you did argue that religion makes you evil, and if I came off that way I apologize.

-Brandon F.

**Albertorius**

Eumerin wrote:
The thread that I'm referring to was probably posted back in 2011. I vaguely recall that a new player started the thread, and was asking about fluff-based stuff regarding the North and South. The posts from the players were overwhelming in painting the North in a sinister light due to importance of religion in the North. The South, in contrast, was seen as largely positive since it wasn't dominated by a religion like the North was. The fact that the South has very serious restrictions on political freedoms was seen as not a very big deal.

Les Temoins
HA's indoctrination
Mekong slavery
Oliver Masao

...I think that "nuff said" is apropos. Let's just say that everything in TN is or can be pretty horrible and that there are no real "good guys", and keep it at that.

Because that was the design objective, after all.

**mrondeau**

Wait... What's wrong with the Humanist Alliance indoctrination ? Everyone is happy! The Alliance sees to it.

**Chemical Cutthroat**

For me the first introduction to Heavy Gear was the video game back on the PC. I barely remember any of the story, but I sunk a helluva lot of hours into that game. Though eventually I ended up doing the non-Campaign missions where you rank up through either the North or the South, and get to pick you regiment and whatnot.

You will be outnumbered, and outgunned.

Ahhhh... I miss that.

But I didn't really pick up on much of the Bad Guy/Good Guy going on. It was just two sides fighting. And (in my opinion at the time) the South had the cooler looking Gears. And the Legion Noire was pretty BA to an angsty kid.

**Eumerin**

Albertorius wrote:

Les Temoins
HA's indoctrination
Mekong slavery
Oliver Masao

...I think that "nuff said" is apropos. Let's just say that everything in TN is or can be pretty horrible and that there are no real "good guys", and keep it at that.

Because that was the design objective, after all.

Yup. It's ugly all over.

Though there are also lots of bright spots all over as well.

**warboss**

Eumerin wrote:

Yup. It's ugly all over.

Though there are also lots of bright spots all over as well.

Of course it is ugly all over... everyone is getting a gear strider when updated! *zing* :0

On a brighter note, I started work on my cheetah SECCOM and incidentally found out that I've been pronouncing it wrong for the past year. I was saying SEE COMM instead of SEK COMM as apparently it is short for section commander. At least I was planning on using it correctly as it will be my army commander's gear.

**Chemical Cutthroat**

I think using a Cheetah as a command gear is pretty cool. I'm used to everyone wanting to stick a commander in the biggest, tankiest, (safest) thing they can find. Having someone with mobility is a neat idea.

I just got my Southern Black Ops Cadre in last night, so I got a guy assembled how I wanted and ready for primer. That'll happen tonight I hope!

**warboss**

Chemical Cutthroat wrote:
I think using a Cheetah as a command gear is pretty cool. I'm used to everyone wanting to stick a commander in the biggest, tankiest, (safest) thing they can find. Having someone with mobility is a neat idea.

I just got my Southern Black Ops Cadre in last night, so I got a guy assembled how I wanted and ready for primer. That'll happen tonight I hope!

In general, there are two schools of thought on the army commander "issue" which boils down to individual playstyle preference. Some folks coming in from the 40k side of things want their commander to be the ultimate I'm in a gear but I'm really a space marine! type commander that beats down everyone with the best gear and the best stats. The game has plenty of options to put army commanders and squad leaders into big gunned gears and tanks so that style has always been supported. I tend to go with the other playstyle in that I want my commander to be efficient at commanding which wasn't really a good option in L&L outside of a recon squad. One of the reasons people thought that Nucoal was too powerful was that each command gear came with ECCM which in general the other TN armies lacked. One thing I would applaud DP9 on army construction-wise is that they've expanded the options to run that style of force with each field guide. In gear regiments, the south got black box iguanas as an option and the north got SECCOM variants.

I expect you'll have alot of success with the black ops squad as they're borderline broken thanks to the poorly thought out stealth rules in HG. A largely invisible chassis gives your opponent a -1 to defense and the snake eye mamba fires a +1 weapon on a +1 chassis. That basically swings the rolls 3 points in your favor. Occasional Stealth 2-3 works well enough in the game given notice to your opponent but anything higher even in one squad or an entire army of stealth 2-3 and your opponent needs to configure his or her army to fight against stealth in order for the game to be fair IMO. In any case, they're cool models and I have a stealth squad myself in my southern army.

**Chemical Cutthroat**

Ahhh... yeah I can kind of see that.

I honestly just bought them because they look cool. I love the Mambas, and the Chameleons are cool and sneaky looking. I really like the Honor Guard too... the Fer de Lance looks wicked. But I figured that might be a little too specialized and all.

Knowing me I'll end up getting them eventually anyway since i like the look of em'.

I'm actually planning on using the Thunder Road rules that Brandon came up with. (Thumbed through them last night, and really dig them). Though I'll be using it on a much smaller scale than the knock-down-drag-out fights that it is built for. Think more Spec-Ops skirmish stuff. I plan on doing a little blog on Dakka with the build up to it (keeping track of the Gears my players are working on), and then doing Batreps one things get in motion proper.

**BrandonKF**

Here be the updated rules. I've added some Northern Gears and striders (Mad Dog, Thunderhammer, couple others), as well as some Southern Gears (Salamander, Street Viper), given the Fire Dragon 3 Orders to compliment the Thunderhammer, added a new special rule (Inferior Sensors), and also taken away some of the other and Stencil font for printers. I wanted it to be pretty, but sometimes it's easier just to print off normal font.

There might be some bad spelling, though, since I was using all caps in my eyesight, I didn't really focus on my punctuation while I was writing the tables in Stencil. Hopefully though they are still very readable.

I also started adding in the New Coalition Gears and also got the Fusilier up, as well as some of the weapons that I missed.

Here be link: https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=ECD989BDB2A355BD!162&authkey=!AE1QFWK27oas8WQ&ithint=file%2c.docx

God bless, all!

-Brandon F.

**warboss**

Are these using the new edition rules for infinity that they talked about a few months back? I didn't know if they did a preview or put them up yet as I don't follow infinity too closely. I mainly just lurk in the news thread here for model voyeurism.

**BrandonKF**

warboss wrote:
Are these using the new edition rules for infinity that they talked about a few months back? I didn't know if they did a preview or put them up yet as I don't follow infinity too closely. I mainly just lurk in the news thread here for model voyeurism.

Afraid not. They haven't even released the 3rd edition yet. I only just heard about it. They came out with 2.0, then Human Sphere, then Campaign: Paradiso. The 3.0 edition will be coming out, but they've been in playtest for awhile, apparently. And they kept it really tightly under wraps.

When it does go live, I'll check it out and see about porting it in. For now I just wanted to get 2.0 and Human Sphere rules put up together for Thunder Run. If I can, I might also look into missions like Campaign Paradiso did, but that'll be difficult. There's also the free mission generation rules they already supply by Veritas, a long-time fan and player whom I have spoken with on the Infinity forums once or twice before.

-Brandon F.

EDIT: So, my first feedback was good. The rules are way too fuzzy. I've expanded, and also increased the Burst on the weapon systems. Link can be found for 2.1b version here: https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=ECD989BDB2A355BD!160&authkey=!AL2kJoZ4K4lK3g4&ithint=file%2c.docx

**Redeemer31**

Eumerin wrote:

I'm not arguing that religion makes you evil. I'm mentioning that there seems to be a knee-jerk reaction among some elements of the fanbase that it does.

The thread that I'm referring to was probably posted back in 2011. I vaguely recall that a new player started the thread, and was asking about fluff-based stuff regarding the North and South. The posts from the players were overwhelming in painting the North in a sinister light due to importance of religion in the North. The South, in contrast, was seen as largely positive since it wasn't dominated by a religion like the North was. The fact that the South has very serious restrictions on political freedoms was seen as not a very big deal.

Not all of the posts were along those lines. But the majority of them were.

Unfortunately, when I went poking through DP9's forums just a bit ago, I couldn't locate the post. But given how long ago it was, that's probably not too surprising.

Interesting. I remember back in.... oh geez, has it been that long? Back in the 90s when I first got into Heavy Gear, it was the South who seemed to be more 'evil' as the Southern Republic was seen as a militaristic expansionist league. Of course, both sides had their good points and bad points, but in general, the South was seen as more of the 'bad guys'.
Guess we could make some sort of social commentary about how the general public's views and perceptions have changed over the years.

**Smilodon_UP**

warboss wrote:
Eumerin wrote:

Yup. It's ugly all over.
Of course it is ugly all over... everyone is getting a gear strider when updated! *zing* :0

Yeah, it would be so very nice if while TPTB folks were going about their business of mandating and changing things at whim they also had the ability to add simple numbers, like say correctly figuring out the combat group sub-type TV values to reflect what they did..... and then not making boneheaded cut+paste errors on top of that so as to make it impossible to know what the original numbers should have been....

I'm not even sure if anyone ever got the BD numbers right, because wow, did that get old trying to correct them based on Saleem's most current thoughts on what the "base skill values" should be, because apparently they can't be the same for every primary faction for the same types of combat groups.

Redeemer31 wrote:
Eumerin wrote:

I'm not arguing that religion makes you evil. I'm mentioning that there seems to be a knee-jerk reaction among some elements of the fanbase that it does.
Of course, both sides had their good points and bad points, but in general, the South was seen as more of the 'bad guys'.

Given that Canada is an up North country, I wouldn't think they'd be trying to cast the Boreal factions as villains, even if only unconsciously.

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**BrandonKF**

I always did have a feeling that the Southern Republic had a minor resemblance to America, with personal freedom being valued above all else.

-Brandon F.

**Smilodon_UP**

Albertorius wrote:
- Flag was gorgeous, and made me want to know more about the setting.

ferrous wrote:
Of that list, I think only Flag counts, and honestly, because it's trying to be real world, it's missteps made it worse for me.

I started watching, and the "camera personal view" in an animated production is a bit hard to get to grips with, even more so than when it gets done for an actual movie.

As for missteps, one big one so far is that keeping mud out of your cannon barrels is just a little bit important.
Apaches in Desert Storm had trouble with sand in their unsealed, under-slung cannons as it was, so a similar nose-mounted weapon, and gatling to boot, on a ground vehicle is not a very good idea by any stretch of the imagination.

Now I know where the Wolf artwork (unused for North) got [lifted from / created to imitate] too, as it seems TPTB at the Pod are really going all out to not even be slightly original anymore.
Eventually though I imagine the Pod will try and use the mecha from HGA along with anything else that strikes their fancy for whatever happens with the Beta, so I guess it doesn't really matter.

To each their own. /shrug
But I'm done bothering with posting this kind of thing on their forums, as there is far too much of the "love it all unconditionally, or leave it" ethos anymore.
I had my fill of that with Battletech even before I was online, and ever since as well on any forum it gets mentioned.
Flames of War is nearly as bad from what I've seen so far too.

Love it or leave it is a pretty damn silly philosophy.

Albertorius wrote:
That said, there has truly been a dearth of really great mecha anime shows in the last years, particularly of the more "real" side of the axis.

Seems to be very true from what I've sampled of late and over the past few years, and not just for robots.

Whenever I want to watch a really good storyline in an animated movie I borrow Porco Rosso and Castle in the Sky from my niece and nephew, which were Xmas gifts to them several years ago.

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