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 Red Viper wrote:

 N810 wrote:
Allied forces are allerdy in the book,
it's in the back next to scenarios.

(slightly different though)
(you can take 2 armies as one)
(as long as each is valid on it's own)
(minimunm core, no excesive rares, etc..)

Yeah, but that's clearly meant for games with more than 2 players.

I just don't want allies to become the standard for a regular game between 2 people... like it has in 40k.

It'll only be problematic if they allow full interaction of rules & special abilities between allied models...

40k's problem is the whole Battle Brother's BS that allows for heinously broken combos, such as the infamous JetSeerstar led by The Baron.

Increasing the casualty rate, especially with shooting.

This seems weird, coming from a TK guy, but I feel the game is dangerously close to what turned me away from 40k.

I hate the idea that going first means you run the chance of blowing up half the other guys army. Already someone cam fast cav a Death/Slaneesh wizard and blow up my battle lines with the first turn.

An army with 300 points of cannons can take out 800-1000 points of monsters/characters in one turn.

Dwellers + IF can wipe out half a Str4 unit and possibly kill any characters living there.

I left 40k because I was tired of stuff getting killed in one turn and giving 1st turn the auto win. (Especially vs IG and Wolves.)

The only other thing that would ruin it is taking away player interaction on the other persons turn.

In 40k all you really do is make saves and pull models.

Charge reactions, active dispelling, use of items, and so on make fantasy the better game for me. I would hate to see a reduction of these things in any capacity.

thelordcal wrote:
The continual persistence of 40k players stating that Warhammer Fantasy is a broken and failing edition. Play the damn game before commenting and ruining the game for perspective players before they can even get their foot in the door.

I played more fantasy than 40K and I'd say its broken and failing. What would ruin 9th edition is NOT getting a full wipe and reset.

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

thelordcal wrote:
The continual persistence of 40k players stating that Warhammer Fantasy is a broken and failing edition. Play the damn game before commenting and ruining the game for perspective players before they can even get their foot in the door.

I played more fantasy than 40K and I'd say its broken and failing. What would ruin 9th edition is NOT getting a full wipe and reset.

You are the 1%.

Seriously, that is one of the most ridiculous things I have heard proposed in these forums… including Captain Solon's proposed idea of having an AP1 Heavy 25 setting for a plasma cannon.

alex87 wrote:

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

thelordcal wrote:
The continual persistence of 40k players stating that Warhammer Fantasy is a broken and failing edition. Play the damn game before commenting and ruining the game for perspective players before they can even get their foot in the door.

I played more fantasy than 40K and I'd say its broken and failing. What would ruin 9th edition is NOT getting a full wipe and reset.

You are the 1%.

Seriously, that is one of the most ridiculous things I have heard proposed in these forums… including Captain Solon's proposed idea of having an AP1 Heavy 25 setting for a plasma cannon.

What, wanting the game to be cleaned up, improved and rebuilt is a ridiculous idea? Okay, stick with the edition thats seen more players leave than any other I've played through (3rd onwards), no bother to me.

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

alex87 wrote:

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

thelordcal wrote:
The continual persistence of 40k players stating that Warhammer Fantasy is a broken and failing edition. Play the damn game before commenting and ruining the game for perspective players before they can even get their foot in the door.

I played more fantasy than 40K and I'd say its broken and failing. What would ruin 9th edition is NOT getting a full wipe and reset.

You are the 1%.

Seriously, that is one of the most ridiculous things I have heard proposed in these forums… including Captain Solon's proposed idea of having an AP1 Heavy 25 setting for a plasma cannon.

What, wanting the game to be cleaned up, improved and rebuilt is a ridiculous idea? Okay, stick with the edition thats seen more players leave than any other I've played through (3rd onwards), no bother to me.

Your empirical evidence just seems to be at odds with 90% of the other people's empirical evidence. Everyone sees people having a blast with this edition and then there comes you, telling them that they are miserable, because you've seen miserable people.

If anything, I have seen a resurgence to fantasy this edition, though I credit that more to the abysmal 40k rules than anything else.

*edit* never mind. Same old circular conversations been played out by many people in many places.

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
I played more fantasy than 40K and I'd say its broken and failing. What would ruin 9th edition is NOT getting a full wipe and reset.

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
What, wanting the game to be cleaned up, improved and rebuilt is a ridiculous idea?

Cleaning something up and improving it is certainly not a ridiculous idea. But thats not what you said and wasn't what I called you out on. You haven't even offered any reasons as to why the game is broken and failing or what areas you'd improve. People who completely hate 8th edition and claim it to be broken and failing are in the vast minority. That is a fact, not my opinion.

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

alex87 wrote:

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

thelordcal wrote:
The continual persistence of 40k players stating that Warhammer Fantasy is a broken and failing edition. Play the damn game before commenting and ruining the game for perspective players before they can even get their foot in the door.

I played more fantasy than 40K and I'd say its broken and failing. What would ruin 9th edition is NOT getting a full wipe and reset.

You are the 1%.

Seriously, that is one of the most ridiculous things I have heard proposed in these forums… including Captain Solon's proposed idea of having an AP1 Heavy 25 setting for a plasma cannon.

What, wanting the game to be cleaned up, improved and rebuilt is a ridiculous idea? Okay, stick with the edition thats seen more players leave than any other I've played through (3rd onwards), no bother to me.

Yeah thats not the sentiment you get if you ask around maybe in your area thats true but around here fantasy is doing just fine and 8th is a good ruleset with some flaws. (steadfast, Super accurate cannons)

I'm actually in the boat of wanting to see more changes in order to re-kindle my interest in the game, as opposed to wanting it to remain as-is. I won't pretend that 7th edition didn't have plenty of issues, but I miss being able to outmaneuver, outflank, and crossfire enemies.

Give. Me. Back. My. Minimum. Four. To. A. Rank. (Grr)

And what reason would a real military force(who isn't made up of half ton ogres) have for making units only 4 guys wide?

Heck, 5 wide is really stretching the reality of what formation warfare would be like.

I want my Warhammer Fantasy Battles to look like battles.

Mreh. I still think that they are placeholders. Only heroes, monsters and maybe something like Ogres is remotely representative of the real size of units.

I mean 100 spearmen is a lot. But that would be a pretty tiny village skirmish. Not some keep invasion led by Lord Fartpants.

 Purifier wrote:

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

alex87 wrote:

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

thelordcal wrote:
The continual persistence of 40k players stating that Warhammer Fantasy is a broken and failing edition. Play the damn game before commenting and ruining the game for perspective players before they can even get their foot in the door.

I played more fantasy than 40K and I'd say its broken and failing. What would ruin 9th edition is NOT getting a full wipe and reset.

You are the 1%.

Seriously, that is one of the most ridiculous things I have heard proposed in these forums… including Captain Solon's proposed idea of having an AP1 Heavy 25 setting for a plasma cannon.

What, wanting the game to be cleaned up, improved and rebuilt is a ridiculous idea? Okay, stick with the edition thats seen more players leave than any other I've played through (3rd onwards), no bother to me.

Your empirical evidence just seems to be at odds with 90% of the other people's empirical evidence. Everyone sees people having a blast with this edition and then there comes you, telling them that they are miserable, because you've seen miserable people.

If anything, I have seen a resurgence to fantasy this edition, though I credit that more to the abysmal 40k rules than anything else.

Well, I do know in Colorado Fantasy did pretty much die after 8th, and is only starting to come back as a result of all the stuff going on in 40k. Fantasy tournaments had their turnout drop to a 1/4 of what it was in 7th, and whole communities at LFGSs vanished, with only a few people keeping it up. I know in the case of my main store, we had a group of almost 15 people that had fantasy and would play regularly, that dropped to 2-3. The other two stores I will occasionally visit for games had communities of 8-10 fantasy players, one store had all it's players stop coming, another went down to only a couple people.

My store has finally gotten back up to about 8 fantasy players, and that is with 3 people only just now starting it up in the past month because they are frustrated with 40k.

So I wouldn't say "everyone" is having a blast, it very much varies by market. /shrug

 captain collius wrote:

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

alex87 wrote:

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

thelordcal wrote:
The continual persistence of 40k players stating that Warhammer Fantasy is a broken and failing edition. Play the damn game before commenting and ruining the game for perspective players before they can even get their foot in the door.

I played more fantasy than 40K and I'd say its broken and failing. What would ruin 9th edition is NOT getting a full wipe and reset.

You are the 1%.

Seriously, that is one of the most ridiculous things I have heard proposed in these forums… including Captain Solon's proposed idea of having an AP1 Heavy 25 setting for a plasma cannon.

What, wanting the game to be cleaned up, improved and rebuilt is a ridiculous idea? Okay, stick with the edition thats seen more players leave than any other I've played through (3rd onwards), no bother to me.

Yeah thats not the sentiment you get if you ask around maybe in your area thats true but around here fantasy is doing just fine and 8th is a good ruleset with some flaws. (steadfast, Super accurate cannons)

Over here it went from 20+ people attending monthly tournaments (all that could fit in the store), in 6th / 7th to said tournaments being cancelled due to not having a minimum amount of players (4).

It went from having 2 yearly national tournaments with 50+ people to 1 tournament with 12.

In the sales rankings for the US, it went from being the 2nd most sold miniature wargame down to 4th.

Yep, 8th edition sure is the bestest edition ever!

Tastes change. Emo music is popular, that doesn't mean it's any good.

I think that having such a high price point has always hurt WHFB and some games with smaller entry prices have taken advantage. That's something 9th should work on, being able to field smaller games even if they don't reprice the models.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
I actually don't like allies. I never liked the mercenary concept because it makes balance vastly different, lists just became TFG festivals where it's nothing but the cheesiest units from every army with no fluff. At least you can have a reason for an army to have all it's units: it's the army book. Why dwarfs have empire cannons and a hellblaster in addition to their own cannons is because [mumble mumble] friends and [mumble].

riburn3 wrote:
If there are any improvements they could make, it's allowing rear and flank charges to deny steadfast. I also think cavalry could be balanced and more viable by simply giving them impact hits. If 4 ogres going 6" can get up to 12 impact hits when charging, a blob of knights with lances charging in at full speed should do some impact hits as well.

Ogres are super expensive compared to most cavalry. It was easy to give MI/MC/MB Stomp and Monsters TStomp because they are expensive. I can't see giving the cavalry unit type Impact Hits because they cover too much. I could see giving them furious charge or similar.

I play Dwarfs and I have a friend that plays high elves that I will NEVER ally with purely for fluff reasons.

It doesn't matter.
I'm probably opting out of fantasy with the change to 9th anyway.

I only got back into it (after a 17 year hiatus) because of mantic making it possible to get an army up and running without the relentless gouging from GW. I did it so I would have something to play at my club (since we stopped playing 40k).

Now that we have embraced Distopian wars, X-wing and Infinity, it's less of an issue.

 CommanderRyalis wrote:

I play Dwarfs and I have a friend that plays high elves that I will NEVER ally with purely for fluff reasons.

Even though Dwarves and High Elves have re-opened trade paths and fought together since the war of the beard?

I'm not opposed to the idea of allies so long as does not become the norm. Also theres needs to be a fair and reasonable allies matrix. Unlike in 40k where you can ally things like Tau/Eldar and create an unstoppable list by combining two already strong codexes, yet Tyranids who are well and truly bottom tier have no access to allies.

alex87 wrote:

 CommanderRyalis wrote:

I play Dwarfs and I have a friend that plays high elves that I will NEVER ally with purely for fluff reasons.

Even though Dwarves and High Elves have re-opened trade paths and fought together since the war of the beard?

I'm not opposed to the idea of allies so long as does not become the norm. Also theres needs to be a fair and reasonable allies matrix. Unlike in 40k where you can ally things like Tau/Eldar and create an unstoppable list by combining two already strong codexes, yet Tyranids who are well and truly bottom tier have no access to allies.

The 40k allies problem is twofold;
1. The rules for 'Battle Brothers' are game breaking all by themselves... Giving ludicrous crap like IG blobs w/Lionhelm + ATSKNF, or else a Jetseer unit Hit-and-Run via the Baron on top of it's already awesome psychic potential, etc...

2. There's no percentage cap to keep things more honest.
The slot system sucks period. 40k should move back to percentage army building like Fantasy has and thus you'd able to add the combined safety net of the basic 25/25/25+/50/25 on top of ensuring that allies themselves are also no more than 25% of your pts total.
So even if it's possible to say ally a Slaan into an Alarielle or Empire Light Coven list for added stupidity, if your overall combined Lords total is still 25% max AND allies themselves are also 25% max, it'd be almost impossible to really game the system with the aim to simply break the game itself.

You could get fun/fluffy allies - say a Dwarf Engineer bringing his latest contraption + small bodyguard to show off to an Empire Elector Count, but no Empire Light Coven with enough Dwarf runes to also remove your opponent's entire Magic phase each turn.
Or else imagine a bunch of WoC chariots + Unkillable Nurgle Prince + double Chims + Skullcrushers backed up by a Dark Elf gunline & a Sorceress w/Light or Heavens Magic in a Warlock unit, or other stupid bull****.

If it worked that way, I certainly forsee a boost in sales of dwarves and empire.

Cannons for everyone!


**Edit**

I'm silly. Why not go demons for 165 and take the Khannons instead? Per GW on the scrolls you don't have to deal with army silliness that doesn't come from the base army.

(IE, when taking the VC battlescrolls, you never suffer from Generals of Undeath, unless your main force is VC.)

alex87 wrote:

 CommanderRyalis wrote:

I play Dwarfs and I have a friend that plays high elves that I will NEVER ally with purely for fluff reasons.

Even though Dwarves and High Elves have re-opened trade paths and fought together since the war of the beard?

I'm not opposed to the idea of allies so long as does not become the norm. Also theres needs to be a fair and reasonable allies matrix. Unlike in 40k where you can ally things like Tau/Eldar and create an unstoppable list by combining two already strong codexes, yet Tyranids who are well and truly bottom tier have no access to allies.

Nope I'm a particularly grudgeful dwarf

The relationships in Fantasy aren't as hardlined as in 40k.

There are less combinations that would be "impossible" in the fluff because there is much more grey area in this matter.

Only combos that cause trouble would be the following.

High Elves and O&G: Only possible exception is if Chaos is involved. Orcs just want a good fight and the Elves know Chaos is the bigger threat.

High Elves and Chaos: Possible explanation is the High Elves are secret cultists(remember the Pleasure Cults)

Lizardmen and Chaos: Flat out impossible.

Dark Elves and High Elves: You could possibly make the argument for a common chaos enemy but I'm going to need some serious convincing.

Dwarves and O&G: Not going to happen.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The relationships in Fantasy aren't as hardlined as in 40k.

There are less combinations that would be "impossible" in the fluff because there is much more grey area in this matter.

Only combos that cause trouble would be the following.

High Elves and O&G: Only possible exception is if Chaos is involved. Orcs just want a good fight and the Elves know Chaos is the bigger threat.

High Elves and Chaos: Possible explanation is the High Elves are secret cultists(remember the Pleasure Cults)

Lizardmen and Chaos: Flat out impossible.

Dark Elves and High Elves: You could possibly make the argument for a common chaos enemy but I'm going to need some serious convincing.

Dwarves and O&G: Not going to happen.

As long as Eltharion isn't involved I could imagine a particularly persuasive High Elf general talking an Orc warboss into a temporary alliance. Remember Orcs love the promise of a good fight, so if an Elf Prince said "Hey wanna help me take on this really powerful chaos lord/vampire count?" then the promise of a good fight would probably be enough for the warboss to agree. Same could be said of any race allying with Orcs really, except probably Dwarves.

You could to some extent argue that for Chaos/Lizardmen that a spawning pool has been corrupted? Really the only likely explanation I can think of there...

I would add that Beastmen and Empire/Brettonia is pretty damn unlikely. Beastmen/Wood Elves is going to also take a seriously good piece of fluff influenced creativity.

Vampires and Tomb Kings hate each other vehemently if I'm not mistaken?

Vamps and TK's are easy enough.

Vampirism spawned in Nehekhara, it's easiest enough to imagine a vampire raiding a Tomb for some minions or some sort of fluffery thereof.

Any combination is possible. It's the stuff of novels.

But 99% of the time gamers aren't writing novels, so you're just left looking at a table with a bunch of cheesy lameness.

9th edition for me would be very good if it stays the same as this edition except:

Make you take look out sir rolls vs all spells.
Make magic resist better.
Make cannons worse.
Remove purple sun as a spell.
Remake some of the magic item lists, just to shake things up a bit.

Experiment 626 wrote:
2. Keeping Initiative based 'test or die' mega spells, AND, allowing all wizards to roll up to 6 dice per casting attempt.
With roughly half the game's armies being low initiative, P.Sun & Pit are just an unfair kick in the groin since the likes of Elves & Warriors get to happily ignore those spells with their deathstars.
It's also infuriating at the moment to easily abuse the above by giving those mega spells to a Lv1 or Lv2 wizard who's only purpose is to 6-dice their casting attempts until they blow themselves up for a 'huge reward, no risk' style auto-win...

Experiment 626, I like you.

A thousand times this. I'm so tired of DE Sorceresses 6-dicing these spells and LOLing at the Miscast. Or at least make the Miscast table something to be rightly feared, instead of losing a paltry 4 models at the end of a gunline where the Sorceress/Mage is happily and safely bunkered and shrugging as they delete whole units and then pick the target for the next nuke-I mean Magic Phase Turn.

I think magic resist should be more of a "roll x to totally ignore the effects of this spell" instead of just a boost to a ward save...

Well, the problem is magic resist has already been priced into army books.

And it's dirt cheap.

They can substantially change stuff like weapons and spells and movement and every army will shift because they all use them but don't directly pay for them. But if they change special rules a lot, then models that were internally paying like 1 pt for magic resist are now way underpriced and OP. Because the models already have the special rules and already have fixed prices.