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Space Marines have gone from the elite special forces of the Imperium, to demigod warrior monks who liberate entire planets on their own. What began as drugged up space cops beating up aliens has over the years spiraled into the Marines we know today. A squad of Marines liberates a planet on their own. A Chapter can rescue an entire star system in days. The Space Marines are the spearhead of the Imperium, the unrivaled, the best humanity has at their disposal.

Except I feel as though the Space Marines might be a little overstated. Obviously it's because the models are the most popular, so of course they get more face time with the public and in the setting. But the fact remains that the Space Marines are the special forces. So I'd like to see that reemphasized.

In real life, the United States Marine Corps is a rapid response unit that can deploy forces around the globe at a moment's notice. Often their job is to take and hold an objective independently until a larger force arrives to take care of the crisis permanently. I feel that that is what the Space Marines should be, shock troopers that make planetfall and hold down the fort until the Guard and the Navy can mobilize. One thousand marines conquering a planet just feels out of place. One thousand marines holding specific checkpoints and positions, performing asset denial across a planet makes much more sense. A company of marines spread out across a city holding strategically valuable locations is a lot more reasonable than the crazy stuff we see in Black Library and Fluff pieces.

Basically, I'd like to see the marines act in conjunction with the Navy and Imperial Guard, rather than as the separate organization they've become. If the division of Navy and Army was an attempt to prevent individuals from gaining too much power, I'd like to see a similar structure put in place for the Marines. The Imperium's armed forces working together with combined arms tactics and take and hold strategies really appeals to me.

Nah. I personally enjoy them much more as now, as W40K attempting to claim any realistic sci fi is simply ridiculous. It's far better off emphasizing that W40K is Science Fantasy and not Science Fiction, with the Space Marines being the current superhuman knights in space with a large amount of fantasy concepts as compared to modern specops or real life marines. Plus there's already guard regiments that fulfill those roles, and unique chapters of Space Marines to fit the roles as well.

Plus, the astetes being superhuman supersoldiers capable of seizing planets with a couple squads actually makes more sense than them being reasonable marine specop squads following modern combat tactics- as it explains why they're still produced instead of simply be replaced by Storm Troopers. You don't blow the massive amount of resources on the Astartes that the Imperium does without them having a massive and efficient return.

 Wyzilla wrote:
You don't blow the massive amount of resources on the Astartes that the Imperium does without them having a massive and efficient return.

Or blind religious devotion to your warrior-monks. That's part of why the Imperium is so horrible, nothing it does is ever practical or intelligent. So you have entire planets full of misery dedicated to producing useless warrior-monks and shrines to the corpse god, instead of more useful weapons to win wars.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
You don't blow the massive amount of resources on the Astartes that the Imperium does without them having a massive and efficient return.

Or blind religious devotion to your warrior-monks. That's part of why the Imperium is so horrible, nothing it does is ever practical or intelligent. So you have entire planets full of misery dedicated to producing useless warrior-monks and shrines to the corpse god, instead of more useful weapons to win wars.

Only as we've gone over before, everywhere except in your own special world, the Imperium literally implodes without the Adeptus Astartes, as they're the pins attempting to hold the house of cards together. Again, there's no evidence supporting your view of the fluff.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
You don't blow the massive amount of resources on the Astartes that the Imperium does without them having a massive and efficient return.

Or blind religious devotion to your warrior-monks. That's part of why the Imperium is so horrible, nothing it does is ever practical or intelligent. So you have entire planets full of misery dedicated to producing useless warrior-monks and shrines to the corpse god, instead of more useful weapons to win wars.

Only as we've gone over before, everywhere except in your own special world, the Imperium literally implodes without the Adeptus Astartes, as they're the pins attempting to hold the house of cards together. Again, there's no evidence supporting your view of the fluff.

Astartes are holding together their pride, nothing more. Too few for whole universe, too rigid, too expensive. They serve its propagandistic uses of course but its just part of Emperors cult. Astartes doesnt win wars, they are shiny posterboys who win skirmishes.

(but I still like the funny setting, so nothing against SM)

 Wyzilla wrote:
Again, there's no evidence supporting your view of the fluff.

No evidence, other than understanding the scale of the setting. The universe is too big and there are too few space marines for them to be relevant. Even looking at just a single planet you end up with ridiculous situations like a chapter being spread so thinly over a continent that each space marine is miles away from his closest fellow marine. The only sensible way to interpret the fluff is that the most dramatic tales of space marine battles (for example, taking whole planets with a single squad) are nothing more than propaganda and religious devotion, and in reality space marines are roughly equivalent to what we see on the tabletop: decent elite infantry that die like any other infantry against heavy weapons.

But, like I said, this is fine because the entire point of the Imperium is that it's a bunch of insane religious zealots who constantly do things that an outside observer would consider unbelievable idiocy. The entire Imperium is a colossal monument to stupidity and ignorance, and space marines are just one more aspect of that.

That would be nice if they weren't so over the top all the friggin time.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Space Marines have gone from the elite special forces of the Imperium, to demigod warrior monks who liberate entire planets on their own. What began as drugged up space cops beating up aliens has over the years spiraled into the Marines we know today. A squad of Marines liberates a planet on their own. A Chapter can rescue an entire star system in days. The Space Marines are the spearhead of the Imperium, the unrivaled, the best humanity has at their disposal.

Except I feel as though the Space Marines might be a little overstated. Obviously it's because the models are the most popular, so of course they get more face time with the public and in the setting. But the fact remains that the Space Marines are the special forces. So I'd like to see that reemphasized.

In real life, the United States Marine Corps is a rapid response unit that can deploy forces around the globe at a moment's notice. Often their job is to take and hold an objective independently until a larger force arrives to take care of the crisis permanently. I feel that that is what the Space Marines should be, shock troopers that make planetfall and hold down the fort until the Guard and the Navy can mobilize. One thousand marines conquering a planet just feels out of place. One thousand marines holding specific checkpoints and positions, performing asset denial across a planet makes much more sense. A company of marines spread out across a city holding strategically valuable locations is a lot more reasonable than the crazy stuff we see in Black Library and Fluff pieces.

Basically, I'd like to see the marines act in conjunction with the Navy and Imperial Guard, rather than as the separate organization they've become. If the division of Navy and Army was an attempt to prevent individuals from gaining too much power, I'd like to see a similar structure put in place for the Marines. The Imperium's armed forces working together with combined arms tactics and take and hold strategies really appeals to me.

You're thinking in a very 21st century fashion.

The above would be mostly true if it was mere Humans with special weapons, armour and tactics. However this is 40k.... 40,000 AD ... that is so unimaginably far into the future it's hard to comprehend. Hell, we have 7 thousand years of recorded history (roughly) and it's incomplete and Humanity has come from stone huts to making video calls on your mobile to the other side of the world. for FREE!.

I do think that an Astartes is much more accurately portrayed in the fluff than in the tabletop rules for obvious balancing reasons. I have no problems them liberating a planet if not facing superior forces.

 UlrikDecado wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
You don't blow the massive amount of resources on the Astartes that the Imperium does without them having a massive and efficient return.

Or blind religious devotion to your warrior-monks. That's part of why the Imperium is so horrible, nothing it does is ever practical or intelligent. So you have entire planets full of misery dedicated to producing useless warrior-monks and shrines to the corpse god, instead of more useful weapons to win wars.

Only as we've gone over before, everywhere except in your own special world, the Imperium literally implodes without the Adeptus Astartes, as they're the pins attempting to hold the house of cards together. Again, there's no evidence supporting your view of the fluff.

Astartes are holding together their pride, nothing more. Too few for whole universe, too rigid, too expensive. They serve its propagandistic uses of course but its just part of Emperors cult. Astartes doesnt win wars, they are shiny posterboys who win skirmishes.

(but I still like the funny setting, so nothing against SM)

Only there really isn't much in the fluff to suggest such. Considering the people owning the copyright push Astartes being superhuman supersoldiers- I'm going to go with the guys that own the copyright over the fans' own perception who doesn't own the rights. While W40K does have (a bloody brilliant) policy of everything being canon but also being full of lies- not only the ones in the greatest majority most likely to be true (it's also not inconceivable a vastly augmented human from FORTY THOUSAND years in the future would be an exponentially more powerful than examples of some modern soldiers able to fight off entire platoons of enemies with a shovel), but the stories that have the mental dialogue that would be impossible to otherwise record, motivations, secrets (because a DA novel with the Fallen in it is certainly Word of God) etc are true and undeniable unless you actually stand against the canon with an unsupported opinion. It's why having headcanon for an event in Star Wars or personal perceptions is pointless. It doesn't matter. The canon has been laid down. Even with a vastly more flexible canon policy like W40K's, it's impossible to write off most information as being false without justification that is a far greater amount of bull than it is to take it literally.

The idea of stuff being propaganda is nice and all, but it doesn't hold up at all in theory and is simply ridiculous to hand-wave the entirety of it away. It only makes sense to handwave the uber-high end singular events that are in far fewer number than the main base of the Black Library, like the Space Marines that are faster than light or backflipping Terminators.

But if a single human soldier shot in the leg can fight off a squad of Chinese soldiers in the Korean war and scare off his hundred plus friends single handily with a shovel, I'm pretty certain that some posthuman demigods descending from a living god upgraded with advanced tech developed around twenty thousand years in the future wearing tanks for armor and with the reflexes to dodge a shot from a modern MBT can take a planet if they have a Techmarine with them. You just have to remember that taking over a planet =/= fighting every single enemy on the planet.

But this whole 'lol I'm going to ignore all the fluff' gets ridiculous when you have to pull more ridiculous justifications for doing so as opposed to simply going with it. I hate the Tau, but this doesn't mean I don't suddenly get to say their ability to build planetoids is BS hype simply out of spite.

There aren't enough Space Marines for that (if we go with the most generous generous 1000 chapters of 1000, there are barely 4x the Astartes as there are US Marines). Plus, too many of them have their own crazy subculture to seamlessly integrate with Guard and Navy forces.

If there were more Astartes then the whole setting would be less Grimdark and there would be a shred of hope.

GW wont allow that!

 Wyzilla wrote:
But this whole 'lol I'm going to ignore all the fluff' gets ridiculous when you have to pull more ridiculous justifications for doing so as opposed to simply going with it. I hate the Tau, but this doesn't mean I don't suddenly get to say their ability to build planetoids is BS hype simply out of spite.

Seems Im losing my time, I dont ignore fluff, quite contrary, I really, really like it. Its just I see it more, much more complex than "har har har, Im mighty Space marine and Im here to slaughter ten thousand orks, because thats what we do". Because its simple math and common sense. Of course, Black Library is not good source of fluff, because amount of bolter porn is absurd (and its belletry trash, unfortunately) and cannot be taken much seriously. But I like whole "everything is biased, more or less" theme.

So thats reason, why thousand men strong chapters cant win wars. Wars waged by billions of men. SM are great small squad specops. Tough, heavy hitting. Unfortunately, many authors and fanboys began to show them as godly warriors dancing on battlefield and blasting tanks with farts. Which is stupid. Its much more stupid that in tabletop SM doesnt possess such power. Which is sad, when crunch has more fluff than new written fluff.

So, dont be wrong, I like SM. They are essential part of WH40K, posterboys in good sense of meaning. I just dont like deforming the fluff of SM into guys who are only and sole power of IoM. They are not. They dont have numbers, they dont have power to do so and of course thay are burdened by too much burdened by chapter and imperial politics. And as I like SM classic role of nice anachronism, I also dislike fanboys that cant have touched their shiny metal knights.

I preferred the genetic super freak mutants of old, held together by a combination drugs, fulfilled blood lust and a bit of religion rather than the warrior monk take on them.

The guys who only sleep 4 hours a night because they're wired to feth and crave action rather than the meditating robe wearing marines of current.

That's me personally though, they were more grimdark in 2nd and 3rd editions.

 UlrikDecado wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
But this whole 'lol I'm going to ignore all the fluff' gets ridiculous when you have to pull more ridiculous justifications for doing so as opposed to simply going with it. I hate the Tau, but this doesn't mean I don't suddenly get to say their ability to build planetoids is BS hype simply out of spite.

Seems Im losing my time, I dont ignore fluff, quite contrary, I really, really like it. Its just I see it more, much more complex than "har har har, Im mighty Space marine and Im here to slaughter ten thousand orks, because thats what we do". Because its simple math and common sense. Of course, Black Library is not good source of fluff, because amount of bolter porn is absurd (and its belletry trash, unfortunately) and cannot be taken much seriously. But I like whole "everything is biased, more or less" theme.

So thats reason, why thousand men strong chapters cant win wars. Wars waged by billions of men. SM are great small squad specops. Tough, heavy hitting. Unfortunately, many authors and fanboys began to show them as godly warriors dancing on battlefield and blasting tanks with farts. Which is stupid. Its much more stupid that in tabletop SM doesnt possess such power. Which is sad, when crunch has more fluff than new written fluff.

So, dont be wrong, I like SM. They are essential part of WH40K, posterboys in good sense of meaning. I just dont like deforming the fluff of SM into guys who are only and sole power of IoM. They are not. They dont have numbers, they dont have power to do so and of course thay are burdened by too much burdened by chapter and imperial politics. And as I like SM classic role of nice anachronism, I also dislike fanboys that cant have touched their shiny metal knights.

Ah see, we more or less on the same page.

An Astartes Chapter can solo a planet and its defenses, but that's not because they face them all down in a single fight. While they can do that and they'll take down a lot more enemies than a Guard Regiment could even dream of, it's a waste of resources. The only time it's ever useful is when the enemy is daemonic in origin or are traitor Astartes, where the only really viable counter is dispatching a fleet to waste a planet or a chapter of astartes to fight them on equal terms.

The real advantage of Astartes comes from Techmarines and Librarians. Librarians allow them to perceive the strategic moves their enemies will make on the battlefield before they're even made. They know where to go and what to do before it even happens. There know the weaknesses of their enemies and where to strike where it'll hurt the enemy most. With Techmarines, you have gods of Hollywood Hacking able to brute-force their way through nearly any computer system in W40K, including the alien ones, with little experience. They are computers and communicate with them on a constant basis. The reason why a squad with a techmarine would solo a planet like Earth is thanks to him being able to completely cripple the technology of the planet and crash any communication not using LAN. They'll send everyone back to the dark ages and shut down all production of power, make reactors go critical, and reach the endgame whenever they get access to nuclear weapons or other WMD's like VX gas. Chapters are capable of logistically GGing most enemies besides the Eldar and Necrons thanks to simply be better equipped, better trained, and just better than the average force of humans or Chaos Cultists.

While I do love my science fantasy righteous knights of humanity and their fallen kin, yeah, you won't see me ever arguing an Astartes can solo an Ork Waagh in direct combat. W40K is a game of numbers in direct warfare. The Orks, Guards, Chaos, and even the Necrons when they awake in great numbers, are capable of literally drowning you in numbers or even their own blood. This also comes up in the fluff as well, with hordes of Nurgle zombies in the BILLIONS simply drowning space marines or guards in a literal wave of bodies. While astartes armor is immensely strong- W40K has the numbers to throw around on a planetary level that a squad can be swallowed up by a mob and disassembled as a thousands of enemies pull them apart with their bare hands.


This is why Siege of Castellax is one of my favorite novels in the Black Library- it gets astartes right. The Iron Warriors are impressive in a fight and can slaughter hundreds of Orks- but they're fighting billions. They get overwhelmed and even with millions (probably billions actually) of their Janissary regiments and gigantic fortresses- crumble before an Ork Waaagh!. There's simply too many of the Orks. They only survive by one of the few surviving Iron Warriors (out of around a hundred I think, there's like five guys that survive) and new Warsmith boardcasts a signal of 'help' to a nearby loyalist world that draws away the Orks after they've completely sacked the planet and want a new fight, which an unsuspecting planet supplies them with. Meanwhile, the surviving tiny amount of Iron Warriors and few other slaves in their service are left to pick up the pieces and rebuilt the whole damn planet, which just got decimated and production for the rest of the Legion crippled.

What I despise is people who wave away all of the fluff and argue that Astartes armor is tinfoil and would lose to a guard regiment in a direct war.

The Astartes always win vs a guard regiment, always... That is because a guard regiment has no Navy support permanently attached to it.

Guardf regiment PLUS Navy is a different matter entirely though, though it depends on the size of the Navy support still.

 Wyzilla wrote:
The real advantage of Astartes comes from Techmarines and Librarians.

Then why even bother with the rest of the chapter? Why not just make librarians and techmarines and attach them to conventional forces?

With Techmarines, you have gods of Hollywood Hacking able to brute-force their way through nearly any computer system in W40K, including the alien ones, with little experience.

Sorry, but the "hollywood hacking" cliche is just plain stupid, and the idea of marines winning wars by hacking all of the computer systems doesn't fit at all with the conventional portrayal of marines winning wars by slaughtering their enemies with bolter and chainsword. The more reasonable interpretation is that the feats of hacking are wildly exaggerated propaganda, and techmarines only look like gods of hacking because of the staggering ignorance of everyone else. They're doing the equivalent of "try typing 'passw0rd' at the login screen" while everyone else is sitting around consulting the holy texts and trying to find the proper ritual of password breaking.

What I despise is people who wave away all of the fluff and argue that Astartes armor is tinfoil and would lose to a guard regiment in a direct war.

Too bad, because that's what would happen. Power armor can plausibly stop lasguns, but IG regiments have more than enough plasma/melta guns, artillery, etc. And of course if you bring in real WMDs the last dying act of every IG unit faced with space marines should be to call in a tactical nuclear strike and vaporize the entire marine force in a single shot.

I wouldn't say that IG have loads of plasma and melta, those weapons are pretty rare (especially plasma). Only on the tabletop are they able to take more per squad than SM. Their artillery is powerful against foes that are acting in a direct way, but SM aren't like Orks or traitors, they'll have sabotaged the artillery even before their main forces make planetfall.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
The real advantage of Astartes comes from Techmarines and Librarians.

Then why even bother with the rest of the chapter? Why not just make librarians and techmarines and attach them to conventional forces?

With Techmarines, you have gods of Hollywood Hacking able to brute-force their way through nearly any computer system in W40K, including the alien ones, with little experience.

Sorry, but the "hollywood hacking" cliche is just plain stupid, and the idea of marines winning wars by hacking all of the computer systems doesn't fit at all with the conventional portrayal of marines winning wars by slaughtering their enemies with bolter and chainsword. The more reasonable interpretation is that the feats of hacking are wildly exaggerated propaganda, and techmarines only look like gods of hacking because of the staggering ignorance of everyone else. They're doing the equivalent of "try typing 'passw0rd' at the login screen" while everyone else is sitting around consulting the holy texts and trying to find the proper ritual of password breaking.

What I despise is people who wave away all of the fluff and argue that Astartes armor is tinfoil and would lose to a guard regiment in a direct war.

Too bad, because that's what would happen. Power armor can plausibly stop lasguns, but IG regiments have more than enough plasma/melta guns, artillery, etc. And of course if you bring in real WMDs the last dying act of every IG unit faced with space marines should be to call in a tactical nuclear strike and vaporize the entire marine force in a single shot.

Only again, your view is simply an unsupported view save by the flimsiest of Black Library works that is otherwise unsupported, even by the people who own the copyright who constantly push Astartes being superhuman supersoldiers capable of soloing guard regiments like it's nothing. And the person who owns the rights is always correct. And as for the nukes-



Probably not a very good way to get rid of infantry, who are already capable of surviving Viral Bombs with sufficient protection from the resulting fireball. Not to mention we also have examples of armor in W40K tanking nukes like no business anyway.

Warhammer 40K is not realistic. Not remotely. It involves races with clap-your-hands-if-you-believe logic, eldritch abominations, more eldritch abominations, psychic reality-warping space elves, reality-warping masters of science to the point they're culture-lite, and a human empire ruled by a living god/composite human capable of pimp-slapping eldritch abominations employing exalted demigod children of previously mentioned living god, possesses reality-warping tech, uses reality-warping soldiers, is a race of reality-warpers mentally bound to an extra dimensional universe of pure thought, and is forty thousand years in the bloody future.

Warhammer 40k is not hard sci fi, not even remotely so. It's as serious and plausible as Doctor Who with a wonky universe bordering Marvel 616 on level of insanity with the amount of eldritch abominations running about and wrecking everything. Nearly EVERYONE in Warhammer 40k is a reality warper, including the near entirety of humanity and the Astartes super-race it's produced.

But wait, somehow your baseless view on W40K is correct, despite even the company behind it providing such a view absolutely no support and disagreeing with it completely with W40K being an outlandish grim dystopian universe that has zero grounding in reality?


If clearly your view of W40K is completely divergent from the existing canon and information on it that the owners have supplied it, why do you even frequent W40K forums instead of simply buggering off to a different, realistic wargame unlike W40K? Because save for some outlier IG novels, there's nothing supporting this view at all which the Rulebook, Codices, Imperial Armor, and Horus Heresy certainly don't support in the least. There is nothing solid to support Astartes being weak wastes of resources besides blatant preferable handwaving of the canon in favor of a minority, which causes more problems and conflicts more with W40K for it being a pitiful attempt to ground W40K in any sense of realism or reality. The majority is always right. As of now and for a great deal of time that merely grows with the more material GW releases, the Astartes reign supreme as a critical force within the Imperium and the nails holding it together. While the Imperial Guard is indeed critical for its survival and another reason why the Imperium continues to exist (both the hammer and the chisel are needed and cannot be used without the other)- there is nothing at all to support that Astartes are useless wastes of resources that does not involve completely changing W40K, and what GW wants it to be.


In the end, it does not matter at all what the fans want. Unless they boycott it for changes, GW pushes what it wants in the fluff. Just be thankful like the rest of us that it is currently at a reasonable and enjoyable stage, and not entered such stupidity like megameter marines or FTL marines.Hopefully those examples stay in the dark basement of the Black Library and never see the light of the day.

Prepare to one discussion limping step...

 Wyzilla wrote:
....why do you even frequent W40K forums instead of simply buggering off to a different, realistic wargame unlike W40K?

...and now he fell!

 Wyzilla wrote:
The majority is always right.

Sorry mate, I dont think that quarter of planet thinking that Earth is flat will make it Discworld. Although it would be cool!

 Wyzilla wrote:
In the end, it does not matter at all what the fans want. Unless they boycott it for changes, GW pushes what it wants in the fluff.

On the contrary, I cant remember how many times I've read and hear "Forge your narrative" in GW materials Oh and I would love GW to actually push fluff forward.

But to be honest, serious and not smartfeth. WH40K fluff is full of holes and layers of bizzare plot armor. HH is best example why is better not to dwell into mythological age. With such scale of inconsistency people will simply work their own narrative even without tabletop. There is some solid ground around which fluff grows, but there is so many empty patches. It comes to personal interpretation and, without chance to avoid it, some roleplay in discussion For example, Peregrine and me looks at the vast IoM and by simple match we cant see even remotely how could all chapters cover even half of the planets with effective force. And when you have some bigger army of SM (lets say about in numbers of few IG platoons), we see there isnt anything better than simply slaughter them by WMD or simply bury them in mere cultist bodies. Thousand, even hundred of thousands of bodies...still worth of taking huge chunk of chapter.

So, discussion with you about Astartes role is for me... interesting and fun. Because its two different (and natural) personal universes where we forged each own narrative. And I dont like leaning heavily on Black Library as facts, because for example HH is sometimes inconsistent in (for me) crucial parts of fluff, like Curze and his sometimes transfromation from interesting tragic antihero into evily evil villain. And of course, because this is, partly, for me really subsoncious roleplay from rather IG/ SoB/ logistics POV, I dont like sending people to different forums where their opinions doesnt stand in opposition to yours.

Eh...and sorry for my english, I know when writing long posts, my english begins to transform into czech...liguistic Tzeentch probably...

All of the chapters don't need to cover all of the worlds in the imperium though, they only need to cover the worlds that are currently in war, rebellion etc etc, whilst the tagline say there is only war, there isn't actually 'only war', I imagine a vast amount of the imperial worlds aren't a threat or under threat, so the ones that are can be covered by the million marines out there, and the guard etc etc.

There isn't 3 Billion worlds that are in war that need ticking off. There are a couple of thousand at a time, and not all of those require the astartes to sort them out.

One thing to remember with 40k is that most worlds are more like feudal states than our 21st century nation states. With most worlds having 1 sole authority rather than our world which has tons of seperate ruling states on the same planet that are autonomous of each other. So say you have a hive world of 5 billion. The world rebels because it's leaders decide that don't want to pay imperial tithes anymore. Now the people on the ground have no way of getting off world, probably have never even spoken to anyone from the wider imperium and even the planetary defence forces have only heard rumours of the space marines. The Space Marines don't have to kill 5 billion people though. They simply smash in and annihilate the central areas of command with a co-ordinated spearhead assualt. 1000 marines would realistically be able to kill at least ten times their number for minimal casualties, especially when striking an enemy that hasn't had a chance to react. That's 10,000 which should be more than enough to have crippled the leadership of the planet. With the rebel governor dead, a new one is installed and no PDF officer in his right mind is going to continue fighting an enemy that just wiped out the planetary elite in one attack. Planet saved. For more insidious rebellions, like where the populace has been swayed to chaos and the taint runs deep through the populace, then the Inquistion, not the marines, are used, so purge the planet.

In the cases people are using with Orks outnumbering Marines by millions, so should always win...they kinda do. 1000 Marines to crush a system seems to be more aimed at human/tau equivilent enemies. Orks or Nids don't surrender so extermination is always needed and I don't think they are included in the list of enemies that the Marines can stomp. I mean look at Armageddon, a huge amount of chapters and millions of guard were needed to pull off a stalemate there.

I think the Marines uses are well documented in BL fluff and that they do in fact make sense. If a 1000 super human demi gods conquering a world is unrealistic then surely it would be unthinkable that 600 conquistadors could bring down an empire of millions that had endured for 5000 years in the space of a generation...except wait...that happened, and that was before we had planes, missiles or tanks.
The effect was the same, beings that seemed to be god like, appeared with strange weapons and seemed like they could not be defeated, enemy surrenders in terror.

Why are zombies so scary in movies when a crowd of people isn't? Because generally if a small band of armed men, be they police or miliatary. Open fire on thousands of people, they'll kill or injure maybe a hundred but almost every single other person will lose their nerve and run. In zombie movies the other 2000 zombies continue lunging forward and wipe out the armed troops. The humans could have caused just as much damage but each individual cares about his own life and ultimately that is all that matters when it comes to a battle. Imperial guard, heretics, Tau, various other lesser Xenos not represented with models, are thinking beings, not zombies. So when a superior enemy that doesn't feel fear or show mercy, descends and starts tearing into your unit, it doesn't matter that with weight of fire you might win, they took out the leaders first, in a short space of time you have no one to rally around and so you crumbled. Army routs, massacre ensues. And yes sometimes there will be enemies who can and do maintain disicpline or are too insane to run away.

In wars of attrition like Armageddon, Marines are used more as beacons of hope that will bolster the units around them. Like in Helsreach, a handful of Templars are serving as inspiration for thousands of guard and PDf.

All people seem concerned with is fan boy "my gun is stronger than your armour" arguments but seem to be completely missing just how important moral is in any battle or war. That is the point of Marines. Battles that they win are their own are against enemies that they can beat swiftly, if it looks like it'll be a case of grinding the enemy down slowly then the guard take it.

I would say the books are propaganda, the game speaks for itself, one space marine vs a squad of guard . fair fight, it all depends how it would work on a table top that's the proof of the pudding.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
1000 marines would realistically be able to kill at least ten times their number for minimal casualties

You've just sent whole chapter into fight. Even in over the top fluff it isnt normal. Not even remotely. Well, problem of the over the top fluff is that some authors would say that it can by done by one tactical squad

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
If a 1000 super human demi gods conquering a world is unrealistic then surely it would be unthinkable that 600 conquistadors could bring down an empire of millions that had endured for 5000 years in the space of a generation...except wait...that happened, and that was before we had planes, missiles or tanks.
The effect was the same, beings that seemed to be god like, appeared with strange weapons and seemed like they could not be defeated, enemy surrenders in terror.

Oh please dont. Whole Cortez - Aztec war was much more complicated. Cortez used well anti-Aztec clans and use vast numbers of Indian allies. Also, those enemies surrendering in terror almost slaughtered all Spaniard who has to ran away with help of Tlaxcala. Sorry, didnt mean to be offensive, but I really hate such myth about real history

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
In wars of attrition like Armageddon, Marines are used more as beacons of hope that will bolster the units around them. Like in Helsreach, a handful of Templars are serving as inspiration for thousands of guard and PDf.

And here I completely agree. I would call it rather posterboys than beacons, but effect is same Well, maybe their effect on common grizzled IG footslogger is exagerrated, nothing that good commisar could do, but I agree

I agree, a 1000 was an extreme example (been too stuck in 30k lately). But even still, there's nothing to stop a 100 or even 50, bypassing defences with a drop pod assault and crippling leadership. The bits that most authors leave out is the guard going to mop up. In Horus Rising (I know I know, 30k but the point is the same) The Luna wolves hammer in and crush the leadership of "Terra" then label it a victory and the world compliant, even though it is noted that the planet wil probably not be pacified for months, maybe even years. By victory, they meant, the guard can now handle it, send marines somewhere else now. Marines seem to be their to fight battles not wars.

I know the Cortez situation was more complicated but there again Cortez wasn't 8 feet tall and didn't fall from the sky in a drop pod and then rip Moctezuma II in half with a power fist

As for the single squads taking on planets, I think this is rare and agree that it is poor writing,

Space Marines are more like the F-22 than the current USMC. They are the exorbitantly expensive day one of war weapon. They are able to fight and win in environments that are just completely lethal to anyone else. Space Hulks. IADS from hell (sometimes literally). Planetary Governor's mansions/fortresses. After they kick down the door then you can do the larger drop of Guard and Titans. For a 10 year war, Astartes might be involved for 3 weeks total, D-Day to D-Day +7 and the final push to the most protected objectives. The entire rest of the time they are just getting shuffled from fire to fire throughout the entire conflagration that is the Imperium.

And yeah, mind wiped psychopaths in power armor is way cooler than a bunch of virgin monks polishing each other's holy bolters.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Space Marines have gone from the elite special forces of the Imperium, to demigod warrior monks who liberate entire planets on their own. What began as drugged up space cops beating up aliens has over the years spiraled into the Marines we know today. A squad of Marines liberates a planet on their own. A Chapter can rescue an entire star system in days. The Space Marines are the spearhead of the Imperium, the unrivaled, the best humanity has at their disposal.

Except I feel as though the Space Marines might be a little overstated. Obviously it's because the models are the most popular, so of course they get more face time with the public and in the setting. But the fact remains that the Space Marines are the special forces. So I'd like to see that reemphasized.

In real life, the United States Marine Corps is a rapid response unit that can deploy forces around the globe at a moment's notice. Often their job is to take and hold an objective independently until a larger force arrives to take care of the crisis permanently. I feel that that is what the Space Marines should be, shock troopers that make planetfall and hold down the fort until the Guard and the Navy can mobilize. One thousand marines conquering a planet just feels out of place. One thousand marines holding specific checkpoints and positions, performing asset denial across a planet makes much more sense. A company of marines spread out across a city holding strategically valuable locations is a lot more reasonable than the crazy stuff we see in Black Library and Fluff pieces.

Basically, I'd like to see the marines act in conjunction with the Navy and Imperial Guard, rather than as the separate organization they've become. If the division of Navy and Army was an attempt to prevent individuals from gaining too much power, I'd like to see a similar structure put in place for the Marines. The Imperium's armed forces working together with combined arms tactics and take and hold strategies really appeals to me.

Space Marines conquer planets by surgical strikes which cripple communication/command/control/retaliatory ability. Anyone still left fighting is terminated with extreme prejudice. Its really not that far-fetched to believe they can do it, its not like anyone is claiming that they defeat every last opposing force, they just destroy their capability and will to fight until nobody is left fighting. Thats certainly how they're portrayed by Forgeworld at any rate.

Otherwise, I agree.

Sure. It'll at least make them less boring.

 UlrikDecado wrote:
Prepare to one discussion limping step...

 Wyzilla wrote:
....why do you even frequent W40K forums instead of simply buggering off to a different, realistic wargame unlike W40K?

...and now he fell!

 Wyzilla wrote:
The majority is always right.

Sorry mate, I dont think that quarter of planet thinking that Earth is flat will make it Discworld. Although it would be cool!

Though I agree with your overall point, since when is a quarter the majority?

I find myself agreeing with Wyzilla. Many exalts were given that day.

 Silverthorne wrote:
a bunch of virgin monks polishing each other's holy bolters.

Emperor preserve me, I had entirely inaproriate thoughts when I read this. I am not so sure they are 'virgin' monks...


On topic: I am happy with the SM as they are now. However, it would be great if the other factions would get some more showtime.