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No, that's not false equivalence.

Psykers are MORE vulnerable to the pull of Chaos, not less.

Unless they're Grey Knights, whom are intrinsically mary sue.

And yes, you did express that sentiment.

 Melissia wrote:

Most psykers are MORE vulnerable to the pull of Chaos, not less.

Unless they're Grey Knights, whom are, by means of faith-mumbo-jumbo (Hey it doesn't make sense, but it doesn't actually need to.)

Fix'd.

Besides, quote where I said hated SoB for being Sues. I believe you just misunderstood me.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:


It seems the Sisters' supposedly unbreakable resolve makes them appear Sue-ish.

If you interpreted this as me pointing fingers, it was not my intention. It was me making my own guess of why they might appear so, not a statement that -I- think they are. I thought 'seems' and 'makes them appear' sufficed to make that clear, but apologies if I confused you.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Well, fair enough if he thinks it holds them back. Fearlessness has its advantages but recklessness and zeal can lead to pointless losses where a more efficient victory had been possible.

Though, in fairness, this is line with a major theme of the SoB. They're big on martyrdom.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
The issue is when preferences turn into vendettas against certain factions. I mean, I get that some dislike one of the several ways Marines are portrayed- the 'demigod' aspect- but it almost has seemed to reach the point where some say 'B-but X kills tons of Marines real quick and effective =)))))' as if just to protest against the status quo

I wouldn't call it a vendetta exactly... Not in every case, anyway. I think it's just that Marines come up often. They get a whole lot of fluff attention and have a lot of fans, so more discsussion and differing interpretations centre on them. For example, a person who was farily neutral on Space Marines might seem like they have a grudge of some kind against Marines just because of their opinions in the numerous "Marine power level" discussions.

And I don't think that examples of Marines being bested is necessarily done to try and demean the Marines, just to try and show that they may not always be as powerful as some believe.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
But it's the way it is. In fact, if Sisters got an update (And I mean a real update, like the Necrons or DE got, not an online only crapdex) I would play them. Honestly. It's only the old models, very expensive models, order-only stuff, bad codex and general outdatedness that keeps forcing me away from them.

Yep, a lot of people in the same boat.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Besides, I'd prefer it if Sisters had been a 'middle ground' army, much more powerful than a Guardsman but still a fair distance below an Astartes. For example, once I was bored and decided to write up the statline and equipment of a SoB squad if they had been present in the Dawn of War II game.
I'll include the (official) stats of a Guardsman and a Tactical Marine as well, to compare:

Guardsman: Cost: 260 requisition for 6 Guardsmen, 100 HP/model, Armour: Infantry (Normal damage taken) Melee skill: 50 Melee: 2 DPS Ranged: 4.12 DPS Abilities: None
Battle Sister: Cost: 350 requisition for 4 Battle Sisters, 200 HP/model, Armour: Heavy Infantry (-40% ranged damage taken) Melee skill: 50 Melee: 6 DPS Ranged: 9.45 DPS Abilities: Shield of Faith (Temporarily reduces damage taken by 20%)
Space Marine: Cost: 450 requisition for 3 Space Marines, 330 HP/model, Armour: Heavy Infantry (-40% ranged damage taken) Melee skill: 60 Melee: 19 DPS Ranged: 14.58 DPS Abilities: Melee Resistance Aura (Passive) (Reduces melee damage taken by 40%) Kraken Bolts (Temporarily increases damage against Heavy and Super-Heavy infantry by 20%)

It seemed balanced to those I've talked to about it. (Appeal to authority, yay)

I can see what you're getting at. In one sense, there's a linear progression: IG: humans with standard equipment. SoB: humans with elite equipment. SM: super-humans with elite equipment.

Though I find it a bit limiting to look at it only like this. The guard have their mastery of tanks and hordes, and the Sisters have their Acts of Faith and Shield of Faith. Yeah, there's essentially a power scale, but it doesn't wholly define those armies either.

Yeah, it is of course a simplification, but I like the progression there. It is kind of like the boy-nob-warboss progression the Orks have, except that Sisters are not physically larger than Guardsmen!

Of course, the difference between SoB and Guardsmen does not have to equal the difference between SoB and Marines, and vice versa, but I just feel I 'like' that.

But hey, we all probably look at the factions in different ways.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Fix'd.

No.

All psykers are explicitly more vulnerable to daemonic influence than all non-psykers.

 Melissia wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Fix'd.

No.

All psykers are explicitly more vulnerable to daemonic influence than all non-psykers.

You really need to cite this, as the last time I checked, psykers in the chaos ranks are still quite rare, and most human psykers don't even get the chance to disprove or prove the theory.

Now, if you mean that psykers are a risk in the terms of tearing open warp holes by accident for daemons to enter the material world, then yes I agree..

 Melissia wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Fix'd.

No.

All psykers are explicitly more vulnerable to daemonic influence than all non-psykers.

Strange, because a GK seems a lot less corruptible to me than a non-Psyker imperial citizen.

GK are mind-wiped to remove them of prior emotional ties that could create vulnerabilities to chaos. Regular non-psyker imperial citizens don't get that. The Bloodtide incident shows they could still be magically corrupted, and a changeling story in the daemons codex shows that, as far as daemons know, corrupting them of their own free will is theoretically possible (only theoretically. It hasn't actually happened yet). Their resistance to chaos, as far as we can deduce, comes from the mind-wiping, conditioning, will power, noble spirit (not from being a grey knight, but from the fact that candidates for the grey knights are presumably selected from people that have shown they are good people. I think?), and incredibly strict training afterwards.

Well, there could be some supernatural explanation I forgot or am unaware of, but last I heard the mind-wiping thing was done to remove emotional vulnerabilities to chaos.

I know this is a bit off tangent, but I gotta wonder how big AS/SoB would be if they went on a true update. I know for certain I'd grab the book, two squads of sister, a hq, a piano of doom, and some others . Just interesting as I see people like brotherharaldus mention they would but besides that you kinda can count the number of Sister players on these forums that actually have an army of them

Anyways, wait didn't Melissia already acknowledge that GK are an exception? And if you critique her for her terming might I add that GK have a unit that is the purer than pure

They are still Psykers, so it would contradict Melissia's statement about all Psykers being more vulnerable than all non-Psykers.

No Grey Knights have fallen yet, and I assume that (Amount of normal humans who have fallen since the founding of the GK / amount of humans who have lived since the founding of the GK) is a higher number than 0.

 StarTrotter wrote:
I know this is a bit off tangent, but I gotta wonder how big AS/SoB would be if they went on a true update. I know for certain I'd grab the book, two squads of sister, a hq, a piano of doom, and some others . Just interesting as I see people like brotherharaldus mention they would but besides that you kinda can count the number of Sister players on these forums that actually have an army of them

Anyways, wait didn't Melissia already acknowledge that GK are an exception? And if you critique her for her terming might I add that GK have a unit that is the purer than pure

When you say "true update", are you talking about something along the lines of the DE update of yore, that introduced a whole new line of models as well as a Codex?

Because that ship has sailed, at least until 7th Ed.

 StarTrotter wrote:
I know this is a bit off tangent, but I gotta wonder how big AS/SoB would be if they went on a true update. I know for certain I'd grab the book, two squads of sister, a hq, a piano of doom, and some others . Just interesting as I see people like brotherharaldus mention they would but besides that you kinda can count the number of Sister players on these forums that actually have an army of them

Anyways, wait didn't Melissia already acknowledge that GK are an exception? And if you critique her for her terming might I add that GK have a unit that is the purer than pure

'Because they are mary sue' is not really a valid exception to me. One can surely find better reasons than that? I can go check the Codex, I am fairly certain it says something about it there.

Well, no, the GK really are a Mary Sue faction. They are not only immune to corruption, but they have units that are even *more* immune than their regular immunity.

I liked the GK better when they were a black-magic wielding elite squad of Knights-Templar that, while ostensibly "remaining pure", did so through the vilest of sorceries and the blackest of magics.

Now it's all, like, willpower or something. Oh, and fear. Fear that they will be the first of the Chapter to Fall. This, of course, will never happen.

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, no, the GK really are a Mary Sue faction. They are not only immune to corruption, but they have units that are even *more* immune than their regular immunity.

I liked the GK better when they were a black-magic wielding elite squad of Knights-Templar that, while ostensibly "remaining pure", did so through the vilest of sorceries and the blackest of magics.

Now it's all, like, willpower or something. Oh, and fear. Fear that they will be the first of the Chapter to Fall. This, of course, will never happen.

Grey Knights are mary sue, Idd.

Which faction isn't, lol?

They are OP, sure, but they are not so Sue-ish in proportion to the other factions as to warrant special complaning, at least that was my impression from the codex.

The factions that aren't Mary Sue are the ones that are often shown (or expected to be) dying in droves in the course of their missions. This would be, mainly, Eldar, IG, SoB, Dark Eldar, and Tyranid.

While they might succeed at their mission, whatever it was, they often suffer horrendous casualties and end up with a Pyrrhic Victory anyway.

 Psienesis wrote:
The factions that aren't Mary Sue are the ones that are often shown (or expected to be) dying in droves in the course of their missions. This would be, mainly, Eldar, IG, SoB, Dark Eldar, and Tyranid.

While they might succeed at their mission, whatever it was, they often suffer horrendous casualties and end up with a Pyrrhic Victory anyway.

They are just contradictional. D/Eldar are on one hand shown as having among the most skilled, swift and experienced warriors of all races, and yet they get rekk'd by Guardsmen. IG have catachans (Marbo? Harker? Straken?) as well as various other things. SoB shrug off having half their torso vaporised by a Multimelta because, faith. Tyranids are depicted as being so many so any losses won't matter... Except if they fight Ultras, lol.

That is why none of the factions I mentioned are Mary Sue. The Space Marines are largely depicted sending 5 guys to a planet of 500 million and killing all of them. With bolters and chainswords. Suffering no casualties.

BORING!

 Psienesis wrote:
They are not only immune to corruption, but they have units that are even *more* immune than their regular immunity.

Not exactly... You just have to read between the lines a little. Note how the Bloodtide GK are described as "needing" their blood magic to protect them from the Bloodtide.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
SoB shrug off having half their torso vaporised by a Multimelta because, faith.

Not quite. The latest codex just says that it's them shrugging off a severe wound. Not being vaporised or decapitated or anything like that, just wounded.

 Psienesis wrote:
That is why none of the factions I mentioned are Mary Sue. The Space Marines are largely depicted sending 5 guys to a planet of 500 million and killing all of them. With bolters and chainswords. Suffering no casualties.

BORING!

Don't people talk about an Iron Warrior getting oneshotted by a lasgun in an IW novel and things like that all the time as to try and disprove their supposed godlikeness?

It seems contradictional to me.

And I like my Marines OP. Shoot me.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Troike wrote:

Not quite. The latest codex just says that it's them shrugging off a severe wound. Not being vaporised or decapitated or anything like that, just wounded.

Right. Just me flogging game mechanics, I suppose. That 6++ can have a Repentia shrug off a direct hit from an Emperor Titan Plasma Annihilator, after all. Even if it is firing a charged shot.

 Psienesis wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
I know this is a bit off tangent, but I gotta wonder how big AS/SoB would be if they went on a true update. I know for certain I'd grab the book, two squads of sister, a hq, a piano of doom, and some others . Just interesting as I see people like brotherharaldus mention they would but besides that you kinda can count the number of Sister players on these forums that actually have an army of them

Anyways, wait didn't Melissia already acknowledge that GK are an exception? And if you critique her for her terming might I add that GK have a unit that is the purer than pure

When you say "true update", are you talking about something along the lines of the DE update of yore, that introduced a whole new line of models as well as a Codex?

Because that ship has sailed, at least until 7th Ed.

Well, that would convince me to bear with the prices of Sisters. I could live with 70 dollar troops if at the very least they had a rulebook that wasn't just kind of thrown out there as a little bone . Honestly I am more interested in plastic Sisters. As soon as they release those (be that some distant future of 6th, or more probably 7th edition) I will succumb. Darn you dakkadakka AS players like I needed one more army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, no, the GK really are a Mary Sue faction. They are not only immune to corruption, but they have units that are even *more* immune than their regular immunity.

I liked the GK better when they were a black-magic wielding elite squad of Knights-Templar that, while ostensibly "remaining pure", did so through the vilest of sorceries and the blackest of magics.

Now it's all, like, willpower or something. Oh, and fear. Fear that they will be the first of the Chapter to Fall. This, of course, will never happen.

Grey Knights are mary sue, Idd.

Which faction isn't, lol?

They are OP, sure, but they are not so Sue-ish in proportion to the other factions as to warrant special complaning, at least that was my impression from the codex.

I'll agree with you on that. I really liked old GK. Now I just can't think of anything besides Draigo and then suddenly the world becomes all hazy and foggy and then I open my eyes and I am surrounded by the blood of assassins :U.

Really though, GK are sue-ish. Yes, every regiment has their moment. IG books will often have guardsman that can slaughter marines y the dozen even when the guardsman have low tech and are low on number. This happens for all races even the nids have some silly points where it's like... oh come on! That being said, certain factions are more prone to hogging light and being... distorted. Heck, there's some section in the chaos daemon codex, if memory serves me, where a single marine survives and then promptly starts turning the tide (I have a hunch that is there to be a hint at the chaos god positive emotions that have kind of been flanderized out for the most part). Look at a game like SPACE MARINE. I love that game, but if I were to read that as some fluff in a book, I think I would wan't to come in and personally slay Titus and run him through several more times. SM, for whatever reason, have these stupid high levels of dissonance from above humans but by a little to a single SM (usually 5 though) going in and then winning it all by themself with not a single loss incurred. Humerously, whilst CSM are also prone to some Mary Sue aspects, they tend to not have as many of these traits.... usually because SM are killing them off in the dozens as well xD.

To be fair, the Sisters do have a new Codex, and it's a full Codex! It has Warlord Traits and everything!

How many new units did they get in the codex?

New units? Please, buddy, this is the Sisterhood we're talking about here.

Before C:AS, the last time I remember a new codex being released without new units coming with it was when C:SoB was released!

....

That's the story of the Sisters. It's not exactly a mono-build army, but there's not a lot of variety in the FOC slots.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
How many new units did they get in the codex?

None. because it wasn't a model update. Unsurprising, since the Sisters have specifically have had problems in that area.

And it sold well regardless. Such is the resolve of the Sisters that they don't need new models to be popular!

 Troike wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
How many new units did they get in the codex?

None. because it wasn't a model update. Unsurprising, since the Sisters have specifically have had problems in that area.

And it sold well regardless. Such is the resolve of the Sisters that they don't need new models to be popular!

I wonder how well the Nid codex sold?

If the AS codex sold better, maybe GW decides that profitwise spamming books > making new sculpts, so they give every race the SoB treatment.

Nightmare.

I'd be surprised to be honest. As much as I like AS, Nids have had a codex you can buy at the shop and their units advertised. Nids have also showed up in many games (probably the most remembered is space hulk). Revenge of the Sisters part 1


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
the Imperium will not act against the Space Marine chapters as a whole

Yeah they do. All the time, in fact. Up to and including extermination.

...to a few chapters.

Sisters lore started off with them wiping out an Astartes chapter.

That's how they were INTRODUCED.

Your attempt to claim that Marines are untouchable is a laughable assertion. The Inquisition deals with Marines in various ways all the time. The ones taht aren't beneficial to the Imperium are destroyed in various ways. Ordering penitent crusades, ordering them to no longer recruit more initiates for a certain number of years, arranging for supplies to be redirected elsewhere, exterminatus on their home planet, assassination of obstinate leaders, and of course, the classic Excommunicate Traitoris-- to be wiped out entirely, such as the Flame Falcons, Astral Claws, Soul Drinkers, and Relictors.

My favorite actually has got to go to the Inquisitor's assassination of a SM chapter during a war. I can't remember the name, I think Celestial Lions was the name. The dudes were outraged at the actions of the Inquisition denouncing them. Well here comes Armageddon. Medics got sniped and the rest then sent on suicidal missions.

On a side note, yes, Sisters probably usually don't win battles all on their own but neither do SM. Along with that, keep in mind that SM are going to have VASTLY more fluff than SoB meaning that you are drawing from hundreds of books, games, etc whilst the AS pool is far more limited in comparison.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
You really need to cite this

Psykers are more valued by daemons than any other kind of creature, because their minds can be used as doorways with which to enter the Material World.

Their minds and souls are like beacons in the Warp, drawing daemons to them, and the energies of Chaos leak from their minds in the form of psychic phenomena-- even moreso when they use their power, providing what in tabletop are referred to as perils of the warp.

This is the reason why the Imperium hates psykers and does not trust them, even sanctionites whom have protections and training against this kind of corruption. Even Grey Knights must be constantly vigilant and have absurd amounts of protection (such as having wards surgically installed on the inside of their skulls), with complex, dangerous rituals to maintain their purity.

 Melissia wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
You really need to cite this

Psykers are more valued by daemons than any other kind of creature, because their minds can be used as doorways with which to enter the Material World.

Their minds and souls are like beacons in the Warp, drawing daemons to them, and the energies of Chaos leak from their minds in the form of psychic phenomena-- even moreso when they use their power, providing what in tabletop are referred to as perils of the warp.

This is the reason why the Imperium hates psykers and does not trust them, even sanctionites whom have protections and training against this kind of corruption. Even Grey Knights must be constantly vigilant and have absurd amounts of protection (such as having wards surgically installed on the inside of their skulls), with complex, dangerous rituals to maintain their purity. [needs citation]

Fix'd.

For the sake of the argument, I checked the WD from the GK release month. It was rather enlightening. To quote Mat Ward:

WD #376 page 22 wrote:Not only is their geneseed something unique in respect to other Space Marines but every one of their number is a psyker. There is an interesting dichotomy here; the incorruptible guardians that protect against the Warp all have within them the capacity to become gateways for the very entities they are sworn to destroy. After all, it has been said many times, that an untrained and unsanctioned psyker can bring whole star systems to their knees, as Daemons flock to them like moths to a candle, using them as an opening into our realm. But that is just one of the many ironies of the 41st Millennium and why it's such an interesting place. A weak-minded psyker is a danger to the Imperium. The Grey Knights, however, are not weak of will, in fact theirs is the mightiest since the Emperor himself, who, let's not forget, was a psyker. A Grey Knight has never fallen or been swayed by Chaos. They are sorcerers all - and I use that term quite deliberately - but ones who use their powers for the defence of Mankind.

Dare you resist the holy word of Mat Ward, our spiritual liege?

(Inb4 'That doesn't count because Mat Ward can't write fluff', lols)