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Martel732 wrote:
I don't have the book in front of me, but aren't Long Fangs with MLs cheaper than C:SM devs with MLs?

Cheeper than Space Marines 6th, but not Blood Angels. That will probably change with the new Codexs.

And where were you getting 5 attacks?

Rage give you +2 Attack on the Assualt and with Astorath that gives you a 50/50 chance of your Squads getting it
>Assualt Squads, : 1+1 [two Weapons] +2 [Rage]= 4 Attacks
>Tactical & Devistator Squads: 1 +2 [Rage]= 3 Attacks
>Death Company, Assualt Terminators [Lighing Claws, Sagunary Guard, Command Squads: 2+1 [Two Weapons] +2 [Rage]=5 Attacks

And you didn't address the built-in anti-horde capability. You can afford to load up on plasma, because gaunts and Orks can beat you even if they assault.

Most of my Kills vs hordes are with Boltgun, Heavy Bolters and Frag Missiles. The Plasma usaly takes care of Nobs.

Only Death Company get Rage.

It's amusing that CSM isn't even considered cause of this.

 Orblivion wrote:
Only Death Company get Rage.

Sorry I forget that Red thinst give Furios charge not Rage.
Still Death Company can easly pull off 5 Attacks.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
Only Death Company get Rage.

Sorry I forget that Red thinst give Furios charge not Rage.
Still Death Company can easly pull off 5 Attacks.

...and they cost a fortune, lol. No model that easy to kill should be worth so many points.

"Most of my Kills vs hordes are with Boltgun, Heavy Bolters and Frag Missiles. The Plasma usaly takes care of Nobs."

But you don't need the boltguns, h bolters or frag missiles. You can let them hit your lines and die horribly. Other marines don't get this option.

When building a TAC list, BA and C:SM can't afford to load up on too much on any one type of weapon. SW can leave the heavy bolters and other anti-horde weapons at home, and take more specialized weapons because you don't care about hordes. If not for bizarre pricing, the Long Fangs would ideally have lascannons, not MLs, because krak missiles are pretty bad. (And frags are even worse)

Astorath can't hand out rage chief. The reality is not even close to what you are claiming. The only squad in the whole codex with rage is DC, who are garbage. DC will never get to assault against a good SW player.

Martel732 wrote:
"Most of my Kills vs hordes are with Boltgun, Heavy Bolters and Frag Missiles. The Plasma usaly takes care of Nobs."
But you don't need the boltguns, h bolters or frag missiles. You can let them hit your lines and die horribly. Other marines don't get this option.

And if I fail my LD8 Test I don’t get my Counter Attack and Die Horribly. It is also best not to let Hordes get to you.

When building a TAC list, BA and C:SM can't afford to load up on too much on any one type of weapon. SW can leave the heavy bolters and other anti-horde weapons at home, and take more specialized weapons because you don't care about hordes.

No we can’t, I play against Orks and Nids all of the time. You have two choices, Kill as much of them as you can before they get to you, or Assault them. To do otherwize it to get stomped.

Astarath can't hand out rage chief. The reality is not even close to what you are claiming. The only squad in the whole codex with rage is DC, who are garbage. DC will never get to assault against a good SW player.

He make the Red Thirst kick in on a 1-3.
10 bare bones Death Company cost 180 and get FNP Fearless.
10 bare bones Grey Hunter cost 150 and we have ATSKNF, Counter Attack, and LD8

The one time I pulled Death Company out loaded up with Bolt Guns, they dominated their 12” bubble of the battlefield, now this was back in 5th.

I know what you say is not quite right because I have used SW before and crushed hordes without softening them up first. Even if you fail counterattack, you still get double the swings of other marines.

Yes, you can leave the anti-horde weapons out because I watched SW players do it for all of 5th and tried it myself a few times. There is no incentive for SW to try to assault the hordes when you aren't gaining any attacks out of it.

Please don't try to compare DC to Grey Hunters. You are just being silly at that point.

Death Company are 20 pts per marine, that's 200 for a squad of 10.

I didn't even look at the point cost. I just saw DC and Grey Hunters in some kind of comparison. Absurd.

 Orblivion wrote:
Death Company are 20 pts per marine, that's 200 for a squad of 10.

Sorry I was looking at the wrong entry
You are correct.

 Orblivion wrote:
Death Company are 20 pts per marine, that's 200 for a squad of 10.

And also non-scoring.

DC are a dumpster fire and anyone who seriously claims differently really needs to really think about how they work. And if your opponents are letting you push them around with DC, you need better opponents. I literally have never lost to another BA player using more than 5 DC.

Just accept the fact that SW own BA in every aspect of the game. I'm sorry if this cheapens your victories against BA, but that's simply the way it is.

If 6th wasn't all about shooting everyone to death, the GH would still be the best troop in the game right now. By a long shot. But their special sauce fails against too many top lists.

Gray Hunters

Wheat do I think they need: Nothing. No Points Adjustments, No new Rules. This will make them more expensive than normal Space Marines.

What I would like:
>To pay for the Second Weapon IF ONLY TO KEEP EVERYONE FROM WHINNING ABOUT IT!
>Change the Special Weapons to May take One Special Melee or Special Ranged Weapon for every 5 Models.
OR
>Make Mark of the Wolfen a Special Melee Weapon [Army Wide]
>May take One Special Melee Weapon and One Special Ranged Weapon for every 5 Models.
OR
>Make Mark of the Wolfen a Special Melee Weapon [Army Wide]
>Change the Special Weapons to May take Two Special Melees or Special Ranged Weapons for every 5 Models.

Once again, it's not "whining" if there a mathematically unfair advantage involved.

Martel732 wrote:
Once again, it's not "whining" if there a mathematically unfair advantage involved.

So hown many points shoudl they be?

It is not like we always get our Counter Attack, We do have to Pass a LD8 Test unless we want to pay an 18+ Point Tax for LD9 that if we want a Transport cost us a Special Weapon.

No free special weapons for starters. That's more what I was referring to.

It's very hard to put a true price on being proof from 90% of assault on your SCORING units. It's bad enough that GH can already whip every other scoring unit in the game mercilessly. At least that I can think of.

The best solution is to bust GH down to 2 CC attacks total so their fair point cost doesn't get them murdered against Eldar/Tau. As they stand now, if a tac marine is 14 pts, a grey hunter would have to be at least 17. That's how much better they are in CC, which you should have to pay for, even though Tau and Eldar don't care.

Remember that you are also paying to NOT have to take flamers and other anti-horde. I don't care if you personally do or not, you don't have to. You are choosing to overkill that part of your list and that is on you. This matters in a game where points are theoretically determined by playtesting.

For fun, try to figure it out yourself. Borrow an Ork army and play a SW player four or five times. If you haven't punched him out by the end, you'll see what I mean. Orks have precious few good options against SW.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Once again, it's not "whining" if there a mathematically unfair advantage involved.

So hown many points shoudl they be?

It is not like we always get our Counter Attack, We do have to Pass a LD8 Test unless we want to pay an 18+ Point Tax for LD9 that if we want a Transport cost us a Special Weapon.

It's hardly a tax when you consider regular SM pay 24pts for Ld9 and don't get access to Termie armour and other Wolf Guard goodies.

I think every one of these types of threads greatly benefit from army swapping. I've probably army swapped over 20 times now. It really gives you a different perspective.

Martel732 wrote:
No free special weapons for starters. That's more what I was referring to.
It's very hard to put a true price on being proof from 90% of assault on your SCORING units. It's bad enough that GH can already whip every other scoring unit in the game mercilessly. At least that I can think of.

I think your view is a little off.

The best solution is to bust GH down to 2 CC attacks total so their fair point cost doesn't get them murdered against Eldar/Tau. As they stand now, if a tac marine is 14 pts, a grey hunter would have to be at least 17. That's how much better they are in CC, which you should have to pay for, even though Tau and Eldar don't care.

NO! Why should I get rid my Chain Sword, the iconic Image of Space Wolves, that is asking for the Blood Angles to give up their Jump Packs. Also as far as I know We am the Only army with Counter Attack

Remember that you are also paying to have to take flamers and other anti-horde. This matters in a game where points are theoretically determined by playtesting.

I have no idea what your point is here.

For fun, try to figure it out yourself. Borrow an Ork army and play a SW player four or five times. If you haven't punched him out by the end, you'll see what I mean. Orks have precious few good options against SW.

I used to play Orks.
Yes Orks have a great option, 30 Boys. Have you even seen a Full Boyz Mob impact with a Grey Hunters Pack, it is not pretty and usually take a few Assault Phases to complete.
This is how is usually goes
>I pass my Counter Attack, I win
>I Fail my Counter Attack, I loose.
In fact that is how it does most of the time. I can tell who is going to win based on a single LD Test.
It is also not hard to get a 20 model Ork Mob into Assault with Grey Hunters. 1 Open Top AV14 Battle Wagon, allowing the 20 Orks to Assault directly out of it. usually there are not 10 Grey Hunters left to make the 30 Attacks.

I think GH show that the game can be rather unbalanced. It's very hard to put a value on 3 attacks when being charged because it's worth heaps against Orks or Tyranids and worthless against shooty armies. I've played a few games of Tyranids vs SW on both sides (since I collect both armies) and while 'nids can overwhelm a SW line, it's really quite hard.

I think GH just need to lose the extra attack when they get charged. Everyone else can keep it, but for GH it makes them a bit too much. The question is how do you do that in a neat way (rules wise), as I think it would be odd to have counter attack on every unit BUT GH, lol. Maybe give them a rule:

Overequipped: Space Wolves like to be able to carry lots of weapons with them to bash people up close. However, due to the difficulty of managing the plethora of weapons, Grey Hunters do not benefit from their CCW when counter-attacking.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Once again, it's not "whining" if there a mathematically unfair advantage involved.

So hown many points shoudl they be?

It is not like we always get our Counter Attack, We do have to Pass a LD8 Test unless we want to pay an 18+ Point Tax for LD9 that if we want a Transport cost us a Special Weapon.

It's hardly a tax when you consider regular SM pay 24pts for Ld9 and don't get access to Termie armour and other Wolf Guard goodies.

So I trade out my 15 point Plasma Gunner for 33 point LD9 that prevents me from making Sweeping Advances and makes it impossible to take any transport, but a Drop Pod or Land Raider.
That’s a good trade.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I think GH show that the game can be rather unbalanced. It's very hard to put a value on 3 attacks when being charged because it's worth heaps against Orks or Tyranids and worthless against shooty armies. I've played a few games of Tyranids vs SW on both sides (since I collect both armies) and while 'nids can overwhelm a SW line, it's really quite hard.

I think GH just need to lose the extra attack when they get charged. Everyone else can keep it, but for GH it makes them a bit too much. The question is how do you do that in a neat way (rules wise), as I think it would be odd to have counter attack on every unit BUT GH, lol.

Well in the 3rd edition Codex, Long fangs just did noy get it at all.
I would be good with loosing Counter Attack if we got True Grit Back, but it is long gone.

 Anpu42 wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Once again, it's not "whining" if there a mathematically unfair advantage involved.

So hown many points shoudl they be?

It is not like we always get our Counter Attack, We do have to Pass a LD8 Test unless we want to pay an 18+ Point Tax for LD9 that if we want a Transport cost us a Special Weapon.

It's hardly a tax when you consider regular SM pay 24pts for Ld9 and don't get access to Termie armour and other Wolf Guard goodies.

So I trade out my 15 point Plasma Gunner for 33 point LD9 that prevents me from making Sweeping Advances and makes it impossible to take any transport, but a Drop Pod or Land Raider.
That’s a good trade.

It's situational when you would and wouldn't take termie armour, but I'd hardly call Wolf Guard a "tax" when Space Marines pay more for the same thing and the only real penalty is you lose the free special weapon when you want to ride in a transport.

That's ALL it is.... you lose the special weapon when you want to ride in a transport. For that, we pay less and get more. A Wolf Guard is only 3pts more than a GH.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I think GH show that the game can be rather unbalanced. It's very hard to put a value on 3 attacks when being charged because it's worth heaps against Orks or Tyranids and worthless against shooty armies. I've played a few games of Tyranids vs SW on both sides (since I collect both armies) and while 'nids can overwhelm a SW line, it's really quite hard.

I think GH just need to lose the extra attack when they get charged. Everyone else can keep it, but for GH it makes them a bit too much. The question is how do you do that in a neat way (rules wise), as I think it would be odd to have counter attack on every unit BUT GH, lol.

Well in the 3rd edition Codex, Long fangs just did noy get it at all.
I would be good with loosing Counter Attack if we got True Grit Back, but it is long gone.

True grit doesn't really work in the current rules because all marines (GH or not) carry bolt pistols. But you could just take away the counter attack from GH or add an exception (coz 40k loves exceptions, lol) saying GH can't use their CCW on the counter attack.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Once again, it's not "whining" if there a mathematically unfair advantage involved.

So hown many points shoudl they be?

It is not like we always get our Counter Attack, We do have to Pass a LD8 Test unless we want to pay an 18+ Point Tax for LD9 that if we want a Transport cost us a Special Weapon.

It's hardly a tax when you consider regular SM pay 24pts for Ld9 and don't get access to Termie armour and other Wolf Guard goodies.

So I trade out my 15 point Plasma Gunner for 33 point LD9 that prevents me from making Sweeping Advances and makes it impossible to take any transport, but a Drop Pod or Land Raider.
That’s a good trade.

It's situational when you would and wouldn't take termie armour, but I'd hardly call Wolf Guard a "tax" when Space Marines pay more for the same thing and the only real penalty is you lose the free special weapon when you want to ride in a transport.

That's ALL it is.... you lose the special weapon when you want to ride in a transport. For that, we pay less and get more.

It is a Tax because in order to take a Wolf Guard Pack Leader it cost you Weapons or a Transport and an Elite Slot. You are not going to take one in power armor with out a Power Weapon or something taking the basic WGPL from 18 points to 28 points. To make him able to do something other than stand there and look good until you get into Assault Range you can take the free Bolt Gun at the cost of an Attack.
And you cant take just one, it has to a be a minim of three, so at that point you might as well take one for each Grey Hunter Pack causing the loss of more Special Weapons if you are going Mechanized.
If you are foot slogging it you don’t loose the Special Weapon, but you are now paying for the 11th guy in each Pack.
The only time I feel a WGPL is worth it is when you are doing Razorback SPAM ware the 6th man is not a burden to the Pack.
This is unless you are trying to get a Cyclone Launcher into one of your Long Fangs.

Thats is true, but by putting a terminator clad wolf guard with eithe grey hunters or Bloodclaws severley limits your transport capabilities.
So they are not great if you need to get across the board fast or need to be mobile in any fashion.
Land Raiders are expensive.

"I think your view is a little off. "

Name a scoring unit that can hold a candle to the GH.

30 boyz plus a nob plus a battlewagon is not a fair comparison to a single GH hunter squad. It's a more fair comparison to TWO GH squads, and I think we know who'd win that.

"I think GH show that the game can be rather unbalanced. It's very hard to put a value on 3 attacks when being charged because it's worth heaps against Orks or Tyranids and worthless against shooty armies. I've played a few games of Tyranids vs SW on both sides (since I collect both armies) and while 'nids can overwhelm a SW line, it's really quite hard.
"

This is very true.

 Anpu42 wrote:
The only time I feel a WGPL is worth it is when you are doing Razorback SPAM ware the 6th man is not a burden to the Pack.
This is unless you are trying to get a Cyclone Launcher into one of your Long Fangs.

I think that's slightly understating it. I WGPL is worth it whenever you don't need an extra special weapon and a transport at the same time (you can still take a transport, you just lose the special weapon, and you can still take the extra special weapon, you just lose the transport).

I often take a WGPL without a power weapon, so you can't go including that in your "tax". A WGPL without a power weapon is basically just paying 3pts to get +1 Ld on the unit, as he functions much the same as a GH then. You can give him a combi-bolter/plasma and it's still cheaper than taking a naked veteran sergeant in a tac marine squad.

I will admit I didn't really consider the fact it takes up an elites slot because frankly I always have a wolf guard pack anyway, lol. I might not take a fully decked out Termie, but even in a small game I'll usually take a few naked Wolf Guard with 1 or 2 special weapons.

 dantay_xv wrote:
Thats is true, but by putting a terminator clad wolf guard with eithe grey hunters or Bloodclaws severley limits your transport capabilities.
So they are not great if you need to get across the board fast or need to be mobile in any fashion.
Land Raiders are expensive.

I have found, for me at least, WGPL are unnecessary and hard to fit in with out going to a double FOC.
When I Gunline I usually have good cover and usually don’t have to make to many LD Test [especially with the DoM in a pod gone].
With Rhinos I usually get halfway to my targets before disembarking [by choice or not] and then from there ATSKNF usually takes of that.
The same for Pods. If I am forced to fall mach I got the whole table to cross and make use of ATSKNF to regroup.

">I pass my Counter Attack, I win
>I Fail my Counter Attack, I loose. "

Looking at your analysis again, I just don't think you appreciate your situation. Your GH are being assaulted by dedicated CC troops. Not only do they get overwatch, they will almost certainly straight up win if you roll "8" or less on two dice.

Other marines assaulted by dedicated assault troops don't get to roll at all. They just die. It would be different if GH were BS 3 or something or took some kind of firepower hit. They don't. In fact, under most circumstances, they have MORE firepower than a tactical squad.

Can you see where this is worth substantial points? Remember that marines, unlike Tau or Eldar, generally don't have the firepower to keep other lists out of assault.

Martel732 wrote:
I just give all my units the same weapon. I'm so conditioned to the whole "unit fires at the same target" thing that I just build my lists to compensate for this. Why would non-Long Fangs ever consider having different weapon types?

Because a lot of the time it is about taking on all comers, so you can't just load up on all lascannons because it will screw you if you end up in a game against an opponent with an army made up of 200 slugga and shoota boyz. Just like arming them all with heavy bolters makes them a bit useless when faced with an army like a 'nidzilla full of lots of hard targets instead. My khorne chaos havocs I equip with 1 lascannon, 1 auto-cannon and 2 missile launchers each. That gives them the flexibility to deal with a variety of different target types out there. Auto cannon and frag missile shots for the troops and las cannon and krak missiles for the hard targets. Add in some flakk missiles and they can cover flying targets as well, though I do have a chaos Hell blade in my khorne army for air cover. The havocs in all 3 of my other chaos marine armies also carry a variety of weapons, though I don't remember them exactly the same since I haven't been playing them since the dawn of time like my khorne marines.

Skriker